Is Mr. Casino Games here to sell his wares or to discuss new game problems...

I am a little miffed about Mr. Casino Games, and using the Game Inventor's Forum to pitch games. A minor complaint.
Stephen doesn't discuss casino game design (and his analysis of the games) that much at all, really.

He pops up from time-to-time to post, and to basically hawk his games by posting his "How to play" cards and sell sheets, on his games.

It's just a concern. Stacy, Elliot J., Wizard, I, Switch (et al), are game inventors whose games have made it to the Casino Floor, and we simply do not peddle our wares here at WOV. We discuss game design points, seek your opinions, and ask for input from our fellow gamblers and game designers - because this ain't G2E.

I do not discuss my own game when I deal it at Fiesta, though I usually deal dice or Shufflemaster products - which is fine with me.

Stephen has been promoting/peddling his wares quite a bit without game analysis or design discussion, which I can understand, but so he had never asked the forum, "I had designed a game incorrectly on that-or-that point? - what's YOUR input?..."

From Stacy F. to Elliot to Switch and Dave Miller (and even volitile Dan - me) - we do discuss the nitty griity of our game designs - and WHAT gamblers and casino operators want to see and need to HAVE - without using the forum to peddle product activity. We'll mention and discuss, true, but we talk and discuss game design, gaming mathemaics, and gambler acceptance issues of our games. We don't post a naked sale sheet without a question.

I don't have any problem with Stephen, but the game inventor's corner is here to discuss game design issues on our new game releases - such as dealing procedure issues with a new game, its game protection, house edge and "dumping" problems, player acceptance, and gambler's "feel for our new game," etc.

I have never seen Stephen participate in any posts here that involve gambling and casino play and life, no less new thoughts on actual game design and opinion, aside from posting his How to play cards of the games he is selling.

Just a concern - is he a forum participant or a peddler...

Dan- I do not think any of his posts cross 'the line'. They are infrequent enough to be a reasonable use of the forums. By posting them he 'invites' us to discuss them. By the way, while waiting for my Pai Gow table to open, I described your game to the whole table. All the other players said they would prefer it to the regular commission game. (Seneca Niagara Casino)

True, Maybe so - I was not condeming Stephan...

It just comes off as if he is peddling his gaming wares instead of entering into game design discussion.

But...We certainly do Not see over here:
1. DEQ posting sale sheets of its company's games...(EZ Baccarat, G3 side betting consoles...)
2. Shufflemaster posting its how-to-play cards for its new games, tons of which are released - and field trialed every year
3. Robert Saucier of Galaxy Gaming pushing any games here.
4. Gaming Network posting any sale sheets,
etc.

Absolutely No thoughtful game design questions, issues, or discussion topics were ever posted by Stephen Aueng Mr. Casio Games.
He has also never participated really in any other forum area or discussion (such as table game cheating, slot advantage play, answering math questions here, etc.

He basically just posts sales literature in the Game Inventor's forum and then leaves....

This site - especially the Game Inventor's forum - is indeed monitored by Gaming Industry game distributors, that is without a doubt.
But none of them use this area to shamelessly peddle their wares.
New game developers may legitemately discuss technical new game issues...that's very different....But his games are already established, and he might just be using the area to sell additional action. Review his posts, filled with fanfare.

Quote: Paigowdan

Just a concern - is he a forum participant or a peddler...

The mere fact that you have had and have expressed such a concern probably answers your question adequately. I've not read his various posts and threads and certainly now I don't plan to. Its a fine line and I'm sure when the Wizard is able to he will deal with the issue as he sees fit. Right now he is probably busy attending to No Stinking Badges and such various multiple identities that he uses.

Some people are here to bicker, some are here to hawk their wares, some are here to focus on gambling in particular and Vegas in general.

Couples often bicker in a casino and we all know that females often hawk their wares there ... but a casino has a license to protect and therefore pays security guards to take quick and effective action.

I can see where some of his posts could be construed as self serving, but he does have other posts unrelated to his games including a page and a half on the Newcomb Problem. I'm fine with him. What say you other inventors?

Quote: FleaStiff

The mere fact that you have had and have expressed such a concern probably answers your question adequately.

Yes, it does. But I also think it is an issue for this board.

I do not think he is here to seek design, input, and modification opinion on his established games,
I think he is here to post his games "Sales Sheets" here - to drum up his online business empire for his established operating outside the United States.

Have we really seen him do anything else here, I ask you?

JMHO.

Quote: benbakdoff

I can see where some of his posts could be construed as self serving, but he does have other posts unrelated to his games including a page and a half on the Newcomb Problem. I'm fine with him. What say you other inventors?

He just as well could have done that without also peddling his wares here....

Maybe Mike and JB can set up a "New Games pitch" corner....

That might solves this potetial area misuse problem.......

I'm not sure if you're right about his intentions.

Most (all?) of his game listing have indicated that he's got a distributor, and most (all?) are already being played in a casino and/or online.

So if he's "hawking" his wares, just who do you think he is hawking them to?


I agree with your assessment that most of his posts seem to be self-serving, and he's not nearly the kind of participant that someone of his background could be.

Is that so terrible?


On the other hand, he does have one habit I find particularly annoying. I'm not sure if he has done this in the past, but he's done it a few times lately: He copies the text of the Wiz' page describing his game, not including the important and referenced tables, and expects us to understand it. All without asking a question.

And then we have to figure out that he actually does have a link to the Wiz' page where we can see the referenced tables.

Frankly, I think he's be far better off if he'd simply post something like this:

Maybe he could post them in the Kiosk so we knew it was just a business post if he wasn't going to ask or answer questions about the game.

Wow, Dan. Jealous much?

"Coach! Stephen made those baskets coz you let him stand there! I didn't know we could stand there! I think he's too close! I've been on this team longer and thought I was playing by the rules! Why does he get to stand there? It's not fair! Waaaaaa!"

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'm not sure if you're right about his intentions.

I'm reasonably sure I am.

Quote: DJteddybear

Most (all?) of his game listing have indicated that he's got a distributor, and most (all?) are already being played in a casino and/or online.

So if he's "hawking" his wares, just who do you think he is hawking them to?

This is NOT new game development.
That's a damn good question.

Quote: DJeddybear

I agree with your assessment that most of his posts seem to be self-serving, and he's not nearly the kind of participant that someone of his background could be. Is that so terrible?

A little bit. Quite Yes Indeed.

Quote: DJTeddybear

On the other hand, he does have one habit I find particularly annoying. I'm not sure if he has done this in the past, but he's done it a few times lately: He copies the text of the Wiz' page describing his game, not including the important and referenced tables, and expects us to understand it. All without asking a question.

Exactly. He's not at the game inventors's forum to design and develope games, he's there to PITCH his games. That's a tad different.

Quote: DJteddybear

And then we have to figure out that he actually does have a link to the Wiz' page where we can see the referenced tables.

Quote: DJteddybear

Frankly, I think he's be far better off if he'd simply post something like this:

I've got another game. [name].
[name] did the math analysis.
It's currently running live at [locations].
The Wiz has a description page about it here: [link].

What do you think?

I think if he's posting on the Game developer's corner, then he has a game that he needs help, input, and opinions on. Clearly he does not!
He CLEARLY isn't there for that game design development purpose - Stephen is there to "hard-core pitch" his existing games for more sales outside the U.S. market - which is something we do not SEE from Shufflemaster, DEQ, Galaxy Gaming, or Gaming Network!

.....

Yes, self-serving, and annoying.
Not that I care (I don't read his threads), but I think, Wizard should be charging fee for hosting his advertisement. That's how it usually works ...

Quote: gofaster87

Doesn't bother me much, but I'm not a competitor. I think its interesting to read about these games.

It is indeed interesting to read about already established Internet games that have already been in the market for years.
It just is not new games development, - pre-market, and searching for discussion here.

Again, perhaps there can be a an "Existing Games Pitch Area."

Quote: weaselman

Yes, self-serving, and annoying.
Not that I care (I don't read his threads), but I think, Wizard should be charging fee for hosting his advertisement. That's how it usually works ...

Yes, indeed.
If Mike, me, Switch, and Stacy don't use this area for clearly MARKETING and SALES purposes - as opposed to math and design questions and issues - then should the games INVENTOR'S corner be used as a games MARKETING and SALES PROMOTION corner?

I don't think Mike Shackleford had that in mind, I am not certain, but that would be a distinct and different area and purpose.
A Sales and marketing area for existing games is indeed an idea, but that's different.

I enjoy the posts here that invite discussion of gaming ideas as they move from concept to installation on the game floor. I see these things from most of the posters here; Mr. Casino Games is indeed different because almost all of the posts I have read from him involve games that are already in use. He may have posted in other threads but I have not noticed it...

I don't think stating an opinion of how an area of a forum is used is "jealousy"...if the corner is about discussing gaming ideas and issues, just posting an advertisement for a game (which is what the posts look like to me) is not in keeping with the spirit of the forum.

.....

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: DJteddybear

So if he's "hawking" his wares, just who do you think he is hawking them to?

That's a damn good question.

You may have missed my point.

He may indeed be "hawking" his product. But his intended customer is not here, so it shouldn't bother those of us that ARE here.

Quote: Paigowdan

. . . which is something we do not SEE from Shufflemaster, DEQ, Galaxy Gaming, or Gaming Network!

No, you don't. And that's because they've got their own marketing departments and websites. They don't NEED to post here.

On the flip side, do they visit here? Maybe, maybe not. But if they do, and assuming they only visit the Inventor's Corner, wouldn't it be better if there was a regular influx of games to talk about. Maybe, although his games already have distributors, the distributors will notice us, and our comments about his games, and think that maybe we know what we're talking about.

And if that's the case, I'd like to remind those distributors about my own game, Poker For Roulette, and the discussion about it, here: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/3259-poker-for-roulette-side-bet/
(You didn't think I'd forget to slip in a shameless plug of my own into this thread, did you?)

.....

If he wants to promote commercial items (his games), why not use the Kiosk forum that the Wizard set up? I know that is described as a Kiosk for "Las Vegas business interests", but this is Wizard of Vegas after all. Seems to me that all commercial posts should be there. And perhaps they should not be in the recent threads list either, sorta like the "adult" topics.

No...he just seems to post his own "How to play my game" cards and sale sheets, - with links to his gambling sites. It's like reading advertisements to his gambling sites. It IS reading advertisements for his gamblings sites, that's all it really is. He really offers nothing.

And for the most part people ignore him.

The thing is, the Game Inventor's Corner is to discover, and to hash out, and to argue out, (often with mathematical proofs or gamblers' arguments),
WHY such-and-such NEW game's mechanism - or design - is inferior or superior, and should be included, excluded, or modified.

Stephen just hawks his online gaming sites here, for additional sales from our group of gamblers.

His purpose here is very clear, - and just wrong in spirit.

Quote: SOOPOO

Dan- I do not think any of his posts cross 'the line'. They are infrequent enough to be a reasonable use of the forums. By posting them he 'invites' us to discuss them. By the way, while waiting for my Pai Gow table to open, I described your game to the whole table. All the other players said they would prefer it to the regular commission game. (Seneca Niagara Casino)

This got me thinking. I don't want to speak for Dan, but if it were my game and someone told me this, I'd look at it as a potential lead and want to follow up with the casino. I'd also be willing to pay a finder's fee or commission to someone who delivered the lead if it panned out.

Taking it one step further, we've got an interesting mix of readers on this forum. They include:
1) Game developers
2) Gaming mathematicians
3) Casino employees, including table games staff
4) Frequent gamblers

All in all, there's a wealth of industry knowledge here that, frankly, doesn't really exist in too many other places. Other gambling boards (from what I've read) are mostly about existing games, their strategies, and stories about winnings or other experiences. And the occasional flame war about someone's betting strategy. I believe, if organized properly, this forum could serve as an interesting new delivery channel for small game inventors to bring their products to market.

Is that something worth talking through? Would the readers of this forum be willing to participate in discussions that could ultimately lead to an ad-hoc business model for game distribution, a model which included compensating the participants?

Putting it in terms of Dan's original post, I don't know if Stephen is/was trying to pitch his games here. I don't know if that even makes sense, because right now this forum isn't a proper channel to bring new games to new gaming markets.

But what if it were?

I spoke with Stephen (MrCasinoGames) on the phone about this. He takes this matter seriously and never meant to engender the reaction in this thread. I suggested he contribute more in discussions and offer his thoughts on games other than his own. He said going forward he will do so.

So I say lets put down the torches and pitchforks and give him a chance to redeem himself.

Quote: Paigowdan

The thing is, the Game Inventor's Corner is to discover, and to hash out, and to argue out, (often with mathematical proofs or gamblers' arguments),
WHY such-and-such NEW game's mechanism - or design - is inferior or superior, and should be included, excluded, or modified.

Perhaps, but we are still talking about potentially patentable inventions, and any such public disclosure may be grounds for unpatentability down the road. I'm not an IP attorney, but you should be *very* wary of just hopping on an Internet forum and saying "Hey, I have this great idea for a new table game. What do you think? Maybe I'll file a patent..." At a minimum, you may end up being forced to list other people on your patent application if they contributed to the idea and that contribution ends up in one or more of the claims. Read this:
http://www.stoel.com/showarticle.aspx?Show=1786

So I'm not so sure that using this forum for a joint game-development session is a good idea, at least for unprotected ideas. For example, the carnival game idea I brought up a few weeks back is already an issued patent; I just haven't gotten around to designing a good instance of the claimed methods (which are reasonably broad). If I hadn't had a patent already, I wouldn't have been so free to discuss the details.

Let me put it another way: there are at least five new gaming apps I'm going to write in the next six months. I won't be discussing any of them publicly, not here nor anywhere else, until those applications have been published by the PTO.

For what it's worth, I'm partially, um, "responsible," for Mr C G posting his game descriptions here.

For a while, he was posting the descriptions as blog entries. But in my ongoing confusion about whether some blog posts are better served as forum entries, I replied to one of his blogs with this comment:

Quote:

You'll have a much better chance of getting replies if you post these in the forum rather than blogs.

Of course, I made an assumption that he WANTED replies.

I now publicly apologize to Mr C G for encouraging him to post here, and then get the reaction he got.

I really like reading about new games and trying out the simulators before playing them for real money. I use the free games at Bodog and LED Gaming to test how long a bankroll will last. So I wish he'd not only post his games, but links to simulators if possible. Then I can tell if it's too boring, too hard, or too much of a money pit, or if it's a game I'd enjoy in a casino.

We now have a Kiosk for businesses, so there's a place for fully-fledged games as well as the Inventor's Corner for games in the works.

On all his blogs Stephen requests any comments or criticisms on his blogs. He has only posted 7 blogs and 13 threads.
So you should be able to avoid them. If anyone could be faulted it is the forum members, not Stephen. His requests
for comments or criticism have resulted in very few, Any criticism I posted he has responded to in a sincere manner,
Have a lot of respect for you Dan but think you are barking up the wrong tree. It is almost as though you are implying that Switch and other share your opinion about Mr. Casino games,
Mr. casino games has requested help into getting one of his games which is approved for Las Vegas into a casino. Even offered to reward that person. He has posted demos of some games. I think he is looking to ascertain why his games are in many
casino's online and B&M world wide but not in Vegas. If a man who has 80 gambling patent should not post in inventor's, who should ??

think if he's posting on the Game developer's corner, then he has a game that he needs help, input, and opinions on. Clearly he does not!
He CLEARLY isn't there for that game design development purpose - Stephen is there to "hard-core pitch" his existing games for more sales outside the U.S. market - which is something we do not SEE from Shufflemaster, DEQ, Galaxy Gaming, or Gaming Network!

And just what decision maker outside the US market is reading the inventor's corner here ??? Stephen is also a world class poker
player and has answred several PM's from me as have also you . I am thankful to both of you. Just because Stephen does not post his advice does not mean he is not available for help. I sincerely thank you Dan for your guidance but would be dishonest to us both to agree with you on this thread.
Respectfully Buzz

Stephen has posted 68 times here and the majority were on threads he did not start or had anything to do with his games.
He did post this one Dan.

I like the "zero-out". It also sounds good.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Mr CasinoGames®)

Does it seem familiar ?

Quote: MathExtremist

Perhaps, but we are still talking about potentially patentable inventions, and any such public disclosure may be grounds for unpatentability down the road. I'm not an IP attorney, but you should be *very* wary of just hopping on an Internet forum and saying "Hey, I have this great idea for a new table game. What do you think? Maybe I'll file a patent..." At a minimum, you may end up being forced to list other people on your patent application if they contributed to the idea and that contribution ends up in one or more of the claims. Read this:
http://www.stoel.com/showarticle.aspx?Show=1786

So I'm not so sure that using this forum for a joint game-development session is a good idea, at least for unprotected ideas. For example, the carnival game idea I brought up a few weeks back is already an issued patent; I just haven't gotten around to designing a good instance of the claimed methods (which are reasonably broad). If I hadn't had a patent already, I wouldn't have been so free to discuss the details.

Let me put it another way: there are at least five new gaming apps I'm going to write in the next six months. I won't be discussing any of them publicly, not here nor anywhere else, until those applications have been published by the PTO.

I agree with you MathExtremist.

I have noticed that DigiDeal has releases your Bad Beat Blackjack, how is it doing?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

For what it's worth, I'm partially, um, "responsible," for Mr C G posting his game descriptions here.

For a while, he was posting the descriptions as blog entries. But in my ongoing confusion about whether some blog posts are better served as forum entries, I replied to one of his blogs with this comment:Of course, I made an assumption that he WANTED replies.

I now publicly apologize to Mr C G for encouraging him to post here, and then get the reaction he got.

DJTeddyBear,

Thanks for this.
By the way, your Poker For Roulette website is very impressive.

Quote: FarFromVegas

I really like reading about new games and trying out the simulators before playing them for real money. I use the free games at Bodog and LED Gaming to test how long a bankroll will last. So I wish he'd not only post his games, but links to simulators if possible. Then I can tell if it's too boring, too hard, or too much of a money pit, or if it's a game I'd enjoy in a casino.

Thanks FarFromVegas.

In future I will add Video Presentation link to the games.
So you well know how the game is play and dealt in live.