diskflicker program

Hey DJ... This is the first I've heard or seen this, looks like fun, fun, fun!!

I have a few questions:

1) The dealer screen shown... is that software that you supply, or something you envision a company like ShuffleMaster will add to their existing platforms?

2) If I were trying to integrate your wager into my game, how do you envision that occurring... are you supplying some kind of hardware module that gets fed spins and burps back payouts? Are you supplying a software equivalent of it? Or are you assuming that game designers will simply read the list of odds and paybacks from your literature and magically turn that into automated procedures and icons?

If so, then,...

3) Can you supply me with the following function:

public function PokerForRoulettePayback (Last_n_Stack() as integer,
n as integer,
Bet_ID as integer,
Bet as long,
optional Current_nj_Jackpot() as long,
optional nj as integer,
optional JP_Split_Denominator() as long) as long


WHERE:

Last_n_Stack() : is an array of the n most recent integers,
each representing the 1 to r range randomization (the last 5 spins)...
If Bet_ID = 10038 then r = 38, or if Bet_ID = 10037, r = 37.
Contents: The spin numbers 1 - 36 = 1 - 36, spin Zero = 37, spin Double-Zero = 38.
The stack is ordered from oldest (index n - 1) to newest (index 0)

n : is the number of elements in Last_n_Stack(), always 5 in your case*.

Bet_ID : is 10037 for European roulette, 10038 for American Roulette.

Bet is a long integer representing the number of UNITS bet. Doing so allows us to avoid multi-national currencies.

Current_nj_Jackpot() : is an array of jackpots, each representing the number of UNITS available for payouts**.

nj : is the integer number of elements in Current_nj_Jackpot() and JP_Split_Denominator(), always 1 in your case.

* implies this routine will only be called upon completion of the 5th spin after the bet was placed, and the stack will contain all 5 (non-null) spin values.
** implies that this routine may be called several times for a given wheel spin, each call for one and only one player, however, there can be several players, so for jackpot payouts, this must be accounted for !!! Without also supplying your algorithm with the exact breakdown of bets by player, it can't be done. And so, the JP_Split_Denominator tells you the exact portion to split jackpots, for this individual player, and your routine will be called once for each player, each time with that player's portion of the jackpot due.

ALL OF THE ABOVE PARAMETERS ARE FOR INPUT, READ-ONLY.

PokerForRoulettePayback returns a long number representing the number of units the bet pays off.


If you can do this, I should be able to make my games play your wager, like really quick, and you can use it for live demos.

I've already done this for the games of Ricochet and Rock'nRoll Dice... I got permission from these game developers (Pat Bowling and Jimmy Barber), and I include their names and patent numbers in the display layouts:









I would be adding you wager somewhere on a layout that looks like this:





as well as on several other 1- 38 range games I have created, including RouleDice (one of my crown jewels)...




RouLevel (Levels out the odds on different dice rolls)...





And some of my "Easy Games", like TruePlace_EasyGames_CC_Dont (The player doesn't need to understand hazard Roulette to make SIMPLE true-odds bets)...





I will be adding a spin-history display to all of these games.

Let me know... because I'll have to make some other changes to my database and to my central server programs to accommodate calling routines like the one above, its gonna take me about a month or so to integrate your bet, but TRUST ME, I CAN MAKE IT WORK!!!

When it does, it will work with my "Anchor" buttons (the ones in purple), so once a bet is made, it will continue to re-book itself each time and make it a contiguous flow as all your literature suggests. It will also work with my BetMaker, and you can immediately create, edit, and run empirical strategy tests on it. Sound familiar? If I sell my system, your game will be included in any license agreements, and you don't have to do anything at all. Tell ya what, I'll even throw in a free Pro-Developer kit download so you can test 35 different strategies concurrently against the same rolls at about 1 roll per second.

All I ask in return is to include your wager in the 1-38 range games in my list of games to demo, obviously with credits and references per your approval. Games demonstrating your wager can then be played with all the others on the world-wide-roll for charity (now in progress).


THANKS!!

marty

Quote: discflicker

Hey DJ... This is the first I've heard or seen this, looks like fun, fun, fun!!

Thanks. I'm hoping the gamblers and the game distributor thinks so too!

Quote: discflicker

1) The dealer screen shown... is that software that you supply, or something you envision a company like ShuffleMaster will add to their existing platforms?

That dealer control panel is not exactly a screen. It's an LED or similar small display, 14 buttons and override key, and a bucket. I modeled it after the control panel and bucket used in Carribean Stud. Of course I realize that getting the tokens into the bucket is a lot harder on a large table like Roulette. If the bet uses lighted sensors similar to Let It Ride, then the bucket part is not needed.

Quote: discflicker

2) If I were trying to integrate your wager into my game, how do you envision that occurring... are you supplying some kind of hardware module that gets fed spins and burps back payouts? Are you supplying a software equivalent of it? Or are you assuming that game designers will simply read the list of odds and paybacks from your literature and magically turn that into automated procedures and icons?

Right now, all I have is the concept - for the bet, for the player's interface, dealer's control panel and for staff procedures. I can create a flow chart to evaluate the last five spins if desired. Designing the hardware is way over my head. I'm expecting the game distributor to take care of that part, or at least help me find someone who can do it.

FYI: This is the player's interface. Just a bet drop slot (or illuminated sensor) with 7 indicator lights, and printing on the felt:

Quote: discflicker

If so, then,...
3) Can you supply me with the following function:

No. Although I have experience programming in a variety of languages, I have no idea what language you're using or what you need from me.

For what it's worth, I was originally using Excel to calculate the number of combinations. But in my first version, zeroes were wild for a lot more combinations. That created multiple combinations and complex calculations in Excel that exceeded my capabilities. So I instead wrote a program to cycle thru all 79 million combinations of 5 spins, and then fed them thru a routine to evaluate them.

I wrote that program in a FreeWare version of .... BASIC!

Your routine shouldn’t care how much I’ve been charging for jackpots, or what anyone’s balance is or anything beyond the parameters I supply, including table, wager, or player minimums or maximums. Your routine is not required to store anything in memory nor track or count any spins or sequences. It should purely be a lookup table. It’s up to the caller to do all the other stuff.

You DO need to know how much money is in the jackpot, and your routine makes the determination of how much of that to payout for a given 5-spin-sequence. Your routine can process this on a spin-by-spin basis.

That’s the way I designed it.

Example 1: 5 numbers are spun:
30 – 31 – 35 – 34 – 29
anyone who made the bet at the start of the 5–roll sequence just hit a natural straight, and your function would return 800 to pay (200 to 1) under the following input:

Last_n_Stack() : 30 – 31 – 35 – 34 – 29
n : 5
Bet_ID : 10038
Bet : 4
(other parameters null for now)

It’s all straightforward until we start talking about jackpots. Another example: 5 people all hit a jackpot at the same time… it WILL happen a lot in this Poker For Roulette wager because of its no-choices-shared-booking nature.

Example 2: Lets say this is one of the big jackpot sequences with a payout of 50% of the progressive, now at $46,000. I supply you with:

Current_nj_Jackpot() : 46,000
nj : 1 (always 1 for you, till you come up with more jackpots…)

So now your routine knows that 23,000 of the 46,000 must pay for the jackpot. If there was only one lucky winner, he’d get it all, and that would be that.

Example 3: But life is never that simple, so this guy has 4 of his evil twins all betting at the same time at different terminals and some are playing different games against the same LIVE roulette spins, concurrently;
1. He’s playing TraditionalRoulette and has bet $2 on Poker-For-Roulette.
2. His “tall” evil twin is also playing Roulette but he’s bet $7 on Poker-For-Roulette.
3. His “short” evil twin is playing RB_CraplessCraps and bet $17 on Poker-For-Roulette.
4. His “blonde” evil sister twin is tearing it up with Coin-Flip on the TruePlace_EasyGames_CC layout and bet $1 on Poker-For-Roulette.
5. His “genious” evil redheaded twin sister is playing a concurrent set of heavily hedged and extremely complex strategies on the RouleDice layout, and she’s bet $5 on Poker-For-Roulette.

That’s $32 total in bets on Poker-For-Roulette. Next, I (my computer program) will call you (your routine) once for each player who made the Poker-For-Roulette bet (the five evil twins) as follows:

Last_n_Stack(4-0) : 30 – 31 – 35 – 34 – 29
n : 5
Bet_ID : 10038
Bet : 2
Current_nj_Jackpot(1) : 46,000
nj : 1
JP_Split_Denominator(1) : 32



Last_n_Stack(4-0) : 30 – 31 – 35 – 34 – 29
n : 5
Bet_ID : 10038
Bet : 7
Current_nj_Jackpot(1) : 46,000
nj : 1
JP_Split_Denominator(1) : 32

…

…

you get the idea. The payouts shown converted back into U.S. dollars are:

2/32 * 23,000 = $1,437.50
7/32 * 23,000 = $5,031.25
17/32 * 23,000 = $12,218.75
1/32 * 23,000 = $718.75
5/32 * 23,000 = $3,593.75


tatal: $23,000

Short people have all the luck.

Basic is fine, that's actally what I'm showing the call syntax in, well VB-6 syntax. If you have written any basic programs, and if you understand the payouts of your wager like I'm sure your the best guy in the world who does, this should be no challenge for you.

It would take me about 2 weeks, I'm guessing. I would start out by identifying pairs, tripples, etc, in some kind of hierarchy, and work from there. Its not like having to parse a variable length string for an unknown nesting depth. You could if-then-else your way through 4 spins and might still have room on the page for a short comment.

Think about it for a while, please... stuff like that sometime pops into your head when you sleep or when your eating and glaring at the wall.

In case anybody is wondering, this thread is a spin off from Poker For Roulette - side bet.

Despite the Wizard's assistance in splitting off this conversation into this new thread, the following questions, which belong in this thread, were entered in the other thread:

Quote: discflicker

So, DJ, You don't want to provide that piece of code for me or for your customers?

Do you want me to go ahead and create the framework for wagers like that?

Or, do you not want me to try to create an automated demo of your wager at all?

Thanks.

I just want to play the game... it really looks like fun!

BTW, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, this is a real bussiness proposal for you. Sorry about the long verbage.

Sorry if I led you to believe otherwise, but I prefer to work with a reputable, established, casino game distributor.

Any code or flowcharts I have or develop will be provided to them, and it will be their decision if they want to work with you or any other third party.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Marty, you should ensure that you don't inadvertently infringe anyone's intellectual property. I don't know the nature of your agreements with the patent holders of the other games you've implemented in your interface, but if those agreements aren't actual written patent licenses, you may be exposing yourself to patent infringement. Talk to your attorney.

guys...

I’m not a "reputable games distributor" YET, but I'm doing everything legally. I have a company named SpikerSystems, L.L.C., fully licensed in the state of Michigan. My lawyer (who specializes in gaming patents) is fully aware of my products and business plans and has encouraged me to go ahead and start doing business as such, if any questions arise I am to say "patent pending".

After 10 man-years of work specifically for these gaming products being layered upon 14 man-years I put into the underlying software foundation, and after spending > $15,000 protecting my "IP" and establishing my L.L.C., I'm just trying to start doing some business.

I’m sorry if you feel like I cluttered up your thread with my proposal, however, in our 30-Dec-2010 meeting (that both you guys questioned I ever had?), the Wizard encouraged me to use this site for this exact purpose.

If you feel my products or systems are amateur, as the tone of your brief rejection implies, let me remind you that Ford motor company still uses this same software for live medical emergency dispatch in many, many plants. I designed and wrote nearly 100% of that code, and they’re still using it 10 - 15 years later. It is SOLID, and the math is also SOLID.

I'm trying to start selling stuff and I'm offering to give you a free piece of software for you to demonstrate your product as a further foot in the door in establishing myself as a "reputable games distributor". I hoped that you could recognize this, just like Jimmy and Pat did, but I guess not, well, not yet.

The agreements I have with Pat Bowling (the inventor of Ricochet) is a long standing one; I’ve supplied him with software that demonstrates Ricochet and he has used it to show the game payoffs to several casinos he had tried to sell it to.

The agreement I have with Jimmy Barber, the inventor of Rock'nRoll Dice was initially face-to-face verbal, and then it was followed up by memos, demos and his blessing and approval before I “released it”. You DO know that my stuff is all DEMO ONLY right? OF COURSE I KNOW its not “approved for gaming floor use”.

For both of those games, I’ve created the only automated demos they have to show their game working any perspective clients including gaming companies and casinos.

I got Jimmy to listen to me by walking a laptop demo of my software around on foot, booth to booth at 2009 G2e.

Next year, you could be showing how your bet works in a booth with an automated demo as well. I’m hoping if 4 or 5 different small companies demo their product using my software, others will be willing to pay for it and it would become a standard of sorts.

I don’t need a GAMING license to do this, its all legal and simply a service I’m already providing right now.

Just curious… Why would you say no to an offer like this?

If you spent a man-month creating the payoff software function, and I spent a month integrating it and getting it to work, you could just say NO to me when its all done. I just won’t put it in my list of games and wagers to demo (and will be out all that time), and you just couldn’t use it.

BUT, you’ll have created an interface module that makes it a snap for game developers to integrate your bet into their systems.

Without a module like this, EACH of these perspective game integrators will have to go through this complex task, and results might start to vary. If you had to out-source the development of a module like this, it might cost as much as $50,000 to create.

To your initial response, I then offered to help you out with the framework of this module. That is what SpikerSystems does, we are a systems integrator, providing services that we don’t need a gaming license to provide, as MathEx keeps warning me about. IT’S NO DIFFERENT THAN IF I MADE KEY-CHAINS AND COFFEE MUGS SHOWING THE COMPANY LOGO!!

I'm not infringing upon anyone... they asked me to do this by agreement.

But then you bitch-slapped me again for cluttering up your thread. How’s about re-thinking my proposal out before you lash out again. If you want to call my pal Pat Bowling for references, I got his number right here.

I'm not ignoring you, but I'll reply later today.

Quote: discflicker

I’m not a "reputable games distributor" YET, but I'm doing everything legally.

I'm not doubting that. That's not the point. I should have included 'experienced' in that description, because I'm going to rely upon the distributor's experience to guide me on the path to getting my idea onto a casino floor.

Quote: discflicker

If you feel my products or systems are amateur, as the tone of your brief rejection implies,
...
I'm trying to start selling stuff and I'm offering to give you a free piece of software

I don't have the technical expertise to evaluate or give opinions about your products. I have already given my opinion based upon your description in the thread where you first talked about it. And I stand by my comments in that thread.

Quote: discflicker

You DO know that my stuff is all DEMO ONLY right? OF COURSE I KNOW its not “approved for gaming floor use”.

I don't know anything about your software. In that other thread, I don't recall your claim that it is intended for demo use. Then again, if there was such a claim, it may have come after I had become bored with the conversation.

Quote: discflicker

Just curious… Why would you say no to an offer like this?

Maybe I don't fully understand what you're offering. Maybe I don't think I need what you're offering. Bottom line, I will defer decisions like this to whatever game distributor I work with.

Quote: discflicker

But then you bitch-slapped me again for cluttering up your thread. How’s about re-thinking my proposal out before you lash out again.

OK. I thought about it again. Feel free to chalk me up as an idiot, but, I'll pass.

Thanks for your time and consideration, I dont know why you'd think I'd chalk you up as an idiot, I'm no genious, just a hard worker.

I don't understand how you think you can sell your wager without it; it apperas to me that you don't have anything definative as far as calculating the exact payouts for it. If someone like Bally's asked you to demo your bet, are you gonna stand there witth a stack of excell speadsheets doing manual lookups? And even if you could do that, do you really have the algorythm to calculate the payouts all figured out? Really? If not, why would anyone be interested in such a bet at all? I mean, without a solid algorythm or any analytical way of considering it, who is gonna put huge lottery type payouts up for grabs witthout understanding how much they can win or loose?

I certainly hope the wording in your patent is a lot more "crsip" that your descrptions.

Anyway, thanks for responding, maybe you can re-think it at a later time...


marty

Quote: discflicker

Thanks for your time and consideration, I dont know why you'd think I'd chalk you up as an idiot, I'm no genious, just a hard worker.

I don't understand how you think you can sell your wager without it; it apperas to me that you don't have anything definative as far as calculating the exact payouts for it. If someone like Bally's asked you to demo your bet, are you gonna stand there witth a stack of excell speadsheets doing manual lookups?

I definitely think you're a hard worker. You've very obviously put a lot of work into the software you've created. However, in my professional opinion, software that looks like what you've posted in this thread is not going to be an effective tool for selling a game to a casino operator. This is what a good game demo looks like:



My advice: if you're serious about pitching games, you need to be serious about effectively marketing them to people who operate casinos as opposed to people who write software. You say you don't understand how someone could sell a wager without your software, but let me put that to bed right now: every wager that's ever been sold has been sold without your software. It's a bit silly to suggest that somehow you're the only game in town when you have zero revenues and no customer base, especially after you admit to spending 24 man-years of effort. There are at least three members of this forum alone who have spent far, far less effort and are actually earning royalty revenues from gaming operators or distributors as a result of their IP development. DJTeddyBear is trying to become another, and I applaud his effort because it seems like he's doing the right things from a business standpoint. I'm completely in the dark about your business plan, but I don't understand how you expect to monetize the VB software in your screen shots. If you expect to use it as a demo, as I said, I don't think it's a compelling pitch when compared to something that actually looks like a roulette game (see above). If you expect to sell it for live gaming play, well like I said before, you'll definitely need multiple gaming licenses and regulatory approvals for that. Here are the rules for your own state:

Quote: Michigan Gaming Control Board page on Gaming Suppliers

Gaming-Related - All persons or businesses providing gaming-related goods/services to a casino must obtain a Supplier License regardless of the amount of business conducted. Gaming-related goods/services are those directly related to the conduct of gambling, or which otherwise affect the play and results of gambling games or devices (dice, tables, gaming chips, tokens, security cameras, etc.).

From what I've read, your system would actually generate the results of gambling games, just like a slot machine. Why do you think you can sell your system to casinos without a license?

Thank you, MathExtreamist for your time and thoughts.

Quote: MathExtremist

… However, in my professional opinion, software that looks like what you've posted in this thread is not going to be an effective tool for selling a game to a casino operator. This is what a good game demo looks like:

I already addresses that concern. The screens are not the game, they’re simply a tool to provide a chip-less betting method for players to use, intended for use in live games. Look at the screens used in Shuffle Master’s RapidRoulette and RapidCraps games, they have a similar look and feel; they got it right… the player’s focus should be on the game not on the screen. You don’t see craps players staring at the chip racks, do you? They look at the live game.

And of course, these screens can, and are intended, to be customized for whatever use they’re implemented for. I can get my layout screens to look exactly like that, and for stand-alone demos like a Java single user program like this with DJ’s bet added to it, yep, it should look more like that.

But, for interactive demos, where a Roulette wheel is in his booth and players walk up make bets, he will need a module exactly like the one I’m suggesting, if for no other reason than to demo it as it would be played live... hey don’t forget THIS bet depends on computer automation to be implemented.

Quote: MathExtremist

My advice: if you're serious about pitching games, you need to be serious about effectively marketing them to people who operate casinos as opposed to people who write software.

SpikerSystems is a systems integrator. We sell tools for game designers and integrators to use. I have also come up with some wagering methods that I’m trying to sell myself, and I’m using some of my products (the 24 man-year demo) to help sell them as well. But our primary customers aren’t gamblers or casinos looking for new games, they’re people like you and DJ who need to create automated demos of the games they invent.

Quote: MathExtremist

You say you don't understand how someone could sell a wager without your software, but let me put that to bed right now: every wager that's ever been sold has been sold without your software. It's a bit silly to suggest that somehow you're the only game in town when you have zero revenues and no customer base, especially after you admit to spending 24 man-years of effort. There are at least three members of this forum alone who have spent far, far less effort and are actually earning royalty revenues from gaming operators or distributors as a result of their IP development. DJTeddyBear is trying to become another, and I applaud his effort because it seems like he's doing the right things from a business standpoint.

Obviously I am aware of that and I only meant “something like it”, however, as I stated above, THIS wager DEPENDS on a computer to implement, so DJ is trying to sell a wagering method based upon computer automation, but without the automation. I’m looking at this as a business opportunity with a perfect fit of what I can do (automate) and what he needs (an automated demo).

Quote: MathExtremist

I'm completely in the dark about your business plan,
…

If you expect to sell it for live gaming play, well like I said before, you'll definitely need multiple gaming licenses and regulatory approvals for that. Here are the rules for your own state …

From what I've read, your system would actually generate the results of gambling games, just like a slot machine. Why do you think you can sell your system to casinos without a license?

From what you have read I have NEVER EVER said anything like that!!! Please don’t fall back into that mode “of what you understand” and keep making false implications that question the legality of my products and services.

I have always insisted that my products simply automate procedures that have been in use for a hundred years. What I’m trying to sell to developers like DJ… NOW THAT YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I WANT TO give him, is that illegal? Is there a good need for it? Was there a good need for me to do this for Ricochet and RocknRoll Dice? Is there a need for it in the industry?

Wait a second… in the industry… if enough game developers use my database to implement a demo of their games, wouldn’t the METHOD (the database’s ability to define games in a generic database) become accepted “as a standard of sort”?

That’s what I’m trying to accomplish, and what I discussed with the Wizard when he asked why I was talking to him.

I have never said that my demo would actually be used in live gaming, you keep implying it, though. It’s a 24 man-year demo, and I knew it all along.

Like I said before in that long, long story about the Nevada circle tour, if I didn’t have this demo, the Wizard would never have listened to me. DITTO FOR DJ’s WAGER… IF HE CANT DEMO IT, “I don’t know how he expe…..



Hey MathExtreamist.. if you’re looking for work, maybe my lawyer will hire you to be his personal Devils advocate. I’ll vouch for you!

No, really, I appreciate your comments and insight and do respect your opinions. Thanks.

Quote: MathExtremist

DJTeddyBear is trying to become another, and I applaud his effort because it seems like he's doing the right things from a business standpoint.

Thanks! I kinda knew that, but it's nice to get a confirmation.

Quote: discflicker

The screens are not the game, they’re simply a tool to provide a chip-less betting method for players to use, intended for use in live games.

Quote: discflicker

I have never said that my demo would actually be used in live gaming,

Correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like those two statements are contradictory.

Quote: discflicker

DJ is trying to sell a wagering method based upon computer automation, but without the automation.

No, I'm not.

First, I'm not trying to 'sell' anything. I'm trying to find a distributor to partner with. It is the distributor that will sell it to casinos. I only need to find a distributor that understands what I'm proposing. And what I'm proposing is not complex. Many members here understand it, and are eager to see it on the casino floor, and bet it. "Selling" it to a distributor, or even to a casino can be done by pointing them to my website, or with a decent PowerPoint slide show. (I realize that before a casino signs on the dotted line, the electronics would have to be developed and demonstrated, but that's not necessary to selling them on the concept.)


Are you aware that my Poker For Roulette concept is the SECOND Roulette based side bet idea I came up with? First I developed my Hit It Again idea. One of my primary concerns was that it be simple to implement, be able to be run manually without any sort of electronics required. While I succeeded in that goal, the game itself wasn't good enough.

However, when meeting with a game distributor about it, they told me that I should not concern myself with the electronics. They have contacts in that area. It may cost a couple bucks, but creating the hardware is not a major effort.

They told me to go back to the drawing board, make it a little more exciting, and don't worry if it's a little more complex. The Poker For Roulette idea was the result.

For what it's worth, although the wheels are turning slowly, that distributor HAS shown interest in the new idea. The only reason I don't post regularly about the progress is because the wheels are turning slowly, AS EXPECTED.

Quote: discflicker

SpikerSystems is a systems integrator. We sell tools for game designers and integrators to use. I have also come up with some wagering methods that I’m trying to sell myself, and I’m using some of my products (the 24 man-year demo) to help sell them as well. But our primary customers aren’t gamblers or casinos looking for new games, they’re people like you and DJ who need to create automated demos of the games they invent.

I finally get it, I think. Your primary customers are the same as my tertiary customers -- 3rd party independent game inventors. I do their math, just like the Wizard does, and I also point them in the right direction w.r.t. legal and regulatory. I don't do programming for demos, but I have had demos produced by animators. They *all* look like virtual copies of the game they're simulating.

Your primary customers are widely known to be both spendthrift and overly optimistic about their game inventions. No offense to DJ -- he seems more grounded than most because he's actually heard advice from a successful gaming distributor and acted on it -- but most of the solo new game people at G2E every year have absolutely no basis for being there. They're not ready, their games aren't ready, and even if a casino decided they liked the game they wouldn't recoup the $6k+ booth costs. The vast majority of new games fail miserably - about every 6 months I get a call from someone telling me that they have a patent pending on a new way of combining craps, roulette, bingo, hopscotch, and baseball into the world's greatest wagering game. I always try to talk them out of it. Just like the industry experts did with the Bulletball guy.

My concern with your business plan is that it seems to be relying on a steady flow of 3rd-party inventors with money. The prospects for that aren't good, especially given what's going on at the PTO right now. Ask your attorney what he's going to do with the 101 rejection you'll get in a few months, and why most gaming methods are getting 101 rejections these days, and you'll see what I mean. I'm just not sure how you're going to make money with your system if you're only selling it to game developers for demo uses. Suppose I had a dice game and used your system to demo it. Then I got 10 casinos signed up at $500/table/month. How do you make money?

You asked:

Quote:

I have always insisted that my products simply automate procedures that have been in use for a hundred years. What I’m trying to sell to developers like DJ… NOW THAT YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I WANT TO give him, is that illegal? Is there a good need for it? Was there a good need for me to do this for Ricochet and RocknRoll Dice? Is there a need for it in the industry?

Wait a second… in the industry… if enough game developers use my database to implement a demo of their games, wouldn’t the METHOD (the database’s ability to define games in a generic database) become accepted “as a standard of sort”?

That’s what I’m trying to accomplish, and what I discussed with the Wizard when he asked why I was talking to him.

I'm not sure there is a need for it, actually. What there's really a need for is a quality animation studio specializing in taking casino games and turning them into iPad demos or Flash demos. I don't see how your generic database adds anything to the mix. I know the whole "two games from one randomizing machine" idea is what your patent application is filed on, but I don't see how that's relevant to an individual game developer who doesn't care about anyone else's game but his own. Take DJ as an example: he has one game idea he's actively pursuing. Do you suggest he'd be better off with a custom-built game demo that looks like roulette and has fancy graphics, or do you suggest he'd be better off with a pushbutton/textbox interface like you've got? What does your backend do for him that a typical Flash demo wouldn't do? And again, how do you expect to make money with it?

Quote:

Hey MathExtreamist.. if you’re looking for work, maybe my lawyer will hire you to be his personal Devils advocate. I’ll vouch for you!
No, really, I appreciate your comments and insight and do respect your opinions. Thanks.

Attorneys are an important client base for me, and I actually do much of what you suggest even though I know you were joking. If your attorney wants to speak with a long-time practitioner, I'd be happy to talk to him.

Quote: MathExtremist

I don't see how your generic database adds anything to the mix.

The database allows me to rapidly prototype many different kinds of games. Its ONE database that contains all the different game definitions. That in and of itself doesnt help an individual customer, but I'm thinking that if this becomes an acceptable presentation standard of sort, then THAT would be useful as far as acceptance by game companies... its kind of like presenting a math equation in a "normalized format".

The interactive multi-player game framework, the game strategy testing tools work and all the bells and whistles then work with any new games developed, so individuals can use this to demo wagering stategies for their games, also in a "standard" lanugage.

Quote: MathExtremist

I know the whole "two games from one randomizing machine" idea is what your patent application is filed on, but I don't see how that's relevant to an individual game developer who doesn't care about anyone else's game but his own.

You are correct. My ideas on this is and TruePlace bets; while I'm waiting for my patents to be (rejected?), I'm exposing a lot of gamers to them via my game demo bussiness.. my foot in the door. In the meanwhile, I can demo 30 games concurrently, and they can be different games, for example, for COMPARISON.... if DJ wants to show off his new bet in Roulette, he can demo back-to-back concurrent games, one using a standard Roulette game and one using it WITH the DJ bet. In fact, he could demo 5 different Roulette games, all showing different strategies and all displayed on live screens for his customers to see.

Quote: MathExtremist

Take DJ as an example: he has one game idea he's actively pursuing. Do you suggest he'd be better off with a custom-built game demo that looks like roulette and has fancy graphics, or do you suggest he'd be better off with a pushbutton/textbox interface like you've got? What does your backend do for him that a typical Flash demo wouldn't do?

My system is client-sever based, with seperate programs for dealer, players and the game program. This architecture allows multiple live interactive games to be played (demonstarted), the exact same way the ShuffleMaster's RapidRoulette works. Why do THEY need smething that can't be done with a flash demo? Same thing here.

Why would he want to show his game with amaturish looking text push buttons and text boxes? Because first of all it doesnt have to look that way, as I keep telling yaz. Second, if and when you finally try my games out you will begin to appreciate the similar look and feel between all of them. You will realize that these screen layouts, just like every slot machie in the world, simply break down the prsentation into a "generic" and a "game-specifc" zone, and I have done this cleanly, JUST LIKE ShuffleMaster did.

Third, and most important, however, is the price: ITS FREE OF CHARGE for DJ!!

DJ admitted in a previous reply that he WILL eventually need to create an electronic implementation for it. I'm offering it for FREE, for the exact same reason you see the companies that make keychains with company logos on them. Look at those keychains and coffee mugs... they are an advertizement in and of themselfs for the company that makes them, that's why I'm doing it, and why DJ might consider my offer.

Quote: MathExtremist

And again, how do you expect to make money with it?

One of my plans is to sell demos like I'm showing you. I don't expect to make a ton on them, but I'm hoping if enough developers like Bowling, Barber and DJ all are using my framewrk to demo their IP, it will be see as standard tool, and more and new developers will hire me to do it as well.




MathEx thanks again for spending a lot of time answering questions and giving advice. I owe you! Next time I'm in Vegas I will give you a free set of disc golf discs and a free disc golf lesson if you like!

Hey, if you like, I can set up a web cam and let you see how this stuff actually works... let me know, I can even call you on the phone if you like... Its really cool stuff, and I can even show you how the generic games definition database works. Lets me know. Thanks again.

In response to DJ...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: discflicker

The screens are not the game, they’re simply a tool to provide a chip-less betting method for players to use, intended for use in live games.

Quote: discflicker

I have never said that my demo would actually be used in live gaming,

Correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like those two statements are contradictory.

Not really, what I'm demoing is a concept... to be implemented in live gaming, a big company like Ballys would need to rewrite it under whatever the industry coding standrards and licencing requrements of the day are. First I need to sell my concepts to Ballys, JUST LIKE YOU, but I have a 24 man-year demo in my pocket to use to show off my concepts. All you got is a dream, a pending patent and a web site.

I want to offer you a FREE demo, something you'll have to pay a lot for if you hire someone to do it. The demo doesnt need to be approved for gaming. Implicit in this, I'm also providing you a way to work out the kinks and details of the analytics of your payouts... I dont think you really have it worked out all the way.

Another BIG set of issues yet to be discussed or considered are the logistics and methods involved with interactive gaming... the PROCEDURES involved... the "all bets down" signals, the locking out of additonal bets once ABD is announced, the ability to cancel ABD, the ability to roll back errors, etc. etc etc. I have all this stuff already worked out, and trust me its not very simple, especially when more complex bets like phased bets in craps are introduced. I saw your attempts at it, and just like with your payout algorythms (or absence thereof), I dont belive you really have it all worked out.

I'm not critisizing you in any way, I'm not trying to argue with you or impose anything upon you, this is just a simple proposal.

I really think your wager will be wildly sucessful for the same reasons I love the FireBet in craps... your bet will be even MORE popular than the FireBet because Roulette is an otherwise BOORING game to play (unlike craps).

Quote: DJTeddyBear

(I realize that before a casino signs on the dotted line, the electronics would have to be developed and demonstrated, but that's not necessary to selling them on the concept.)

But like my mom always used to say... "It wouldnt hurt"... Have I got a deal for you ...

If you want I can demo these demos for you via web cam and telephone.... maybe I can do it for both you and MathEx at the same tijme. Or not, hey its cool..

thanks for taking the time

marty

Okay, I guess I'm back to not getting it. Why would one game developer intentionally choose to implement his demo with your generic framework when he could have one custom-built that would specifically show off its features and stand out? You say you can demo 30 games concurrently, and that they all have a similar look and feel, but why is that a better solution for each individual game developer? For my part, if I'm pitching a dice game to an operator, I want him focused on my game alone. I definitely don't want him thinking about Ricochet, Rock'n'Roll Dice, or 28 other dice games, and I especially don't want him thinking that they're all the same -- even visually. I'd rather spend $5k on a custom demo than get a "free" demo that dilutes the uniqueness of my game. What am I missing?

Also, I think you're overestimating the importance of demonstrating the client-server aspects of an electronic multi-player game system. Everyone understands how Shuffle Master's Rapid games work, and how all the other similar vendors' multi-player products work. The generic multi-player features aren't something that needs demoing. The only thing that needs demoing is the specific game proposition itself, and that can be done just fine with a single-player Flash demo. Do you disagree?

I originally thought that you'd be pitching your system as some sort of generic interoperability framework for content development to large vendors or online software operators. That's what the pending claims of your patent seem to be directed toward. If you're not selling that, why did you bother with the patent app in the first place? Who are you going to license it to in order to recover your legal costs?

Quote: MathExtremist

Okay, I guess I'm back to not getting it. Why would one game developer intentionally choose to implement his demo with your generic framework when he could have one custom-built that would specifically show off its features and stand out? You say you can demo 30 games concurrently, and that they all have a similar look and feel, but why is that a better solution for each individual game developer? For my part, if I'm pitching a dice game to an operator, I want him focused on my game alone. I definitely don't want him thinking about Ricochet, Rock'n'Roll Dice, or 28 other dice games, and I especially don't want him thinking that they're all the same -- even visually. I'd rather spend $5k on a custom demo than get a "free" demo that dilutes the uniqueness of my game. What am I missing?

Sorry, I confused you when I started ranting about being able to demo multiple games... YOU ARE CORRECT a single vendor like DJ wouldn't want to show the other games along with his, even if I made the demo free just for him doing so. What I meant to explain to you is that my system is capabale of running multiple games, and those can be mutiple instances of THE SAME GAME or games that differ only slightly. Specifically in DJs case, he could show multiple ROULETTE games, but some with his bet and some without. The system places no restrictions upon this. He can show 5 DIFFERENT ROULETTE-STYLE games running 5 sets of strategies and 5 without or whatever. You did see the list of 5 DIFFERENT Roulette STYLE games I can implemenet his bet upon, right? Sorry about the confusion.

Quote: MathExtremist

Also, I think you're overestimating the importance of demonstrating the client-server aspects of an electronic multi-player game system. Everyone understands how Shuffle Master's Rapid games work, and how all the other similar vendors' multi-player products work. The generic multi-player features aren't something that needs demoing. The only thing that needs demoing is the specific game proposition itself, and that can be done just fine with a single-player Flash demo. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree... DJ needs to show the interaction between the dealer and the players, a stand-alone demo wont cut it, especially if he wants to show concurrent multiple strategies being run aganist it. The question becomes "how realistic will his demo be?" For his particular wager, I think he needs an electornic lookup of the bet payouts, and he needs to demonstrate the procedural interactions of the dealer "All Bets Down" signals, etc, because it is all stated in his game descriptions... it's part of what he's trying to sell.

Quote: MathExtremist

I originally thought that you'd be pitching your system as some sort of generic interoperability framework for content development to large vendors or online software operators. That's what the pending claims of your patent seem to be directed toward. If you're not selling that, why did you bother with the patent app in the first place? Who are you going to license it to in order to recover your legal costs?

Like I said, the systems works great as is, but I know it would need some kind of approval to be used in live gaming. Those ARE my eventaual goals, but in the meanwhile, I can legally use my demo to help others demo their products, and hopefully making the generic database definitions a standard. Its kind of like a long-term master plan. Make no mistake.. I am a dreamer just like your tertiary customers, but since I'm also a programmer, I figured I can sell my stuff along the way to other dreamers.


BTW, I a not a salesman, I'm a programmer. I need help in making my company grow in the way of sales. I agree with you that I need better approaches toward selling these products. I don't agree, however, that super-fancy screen layouts will help accomplish it, I think ShuffleMaster's approach to screen layouts verifies this, but I might be wrong about it and about a lot of stuff. That's why I value your input, MathEx!

But hopefully by now you can start to appreciate the potential, maybe if you saw ths stuff work, you might agree even more.

thanks again.