Game Design Career
Poll
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12 members have voted
Whats awesome is that everything Ive been reading here actually applies to the game Im making.
My game is a casino game. But you cant play it in the casino as its not a table game or slot machine.
Have fun figuring that one out.
If you have to think about maybe designing a game or get input on if it's a good thing to get into, you don't have it. Save your time and money and do something else. It's a less than 1% chance to start with, even for those with a burning desire to see it through.
ZCore13
the thing is - you have to take everything that youve heard in this thread - and throw it the eff out.
you literally have to take everything in this thread and - throw it all out. not believe it YOURSELF. even though its true. you have to have the gall to say "I dont believe you guys" and push forward.
There will always be people who KNOW what the problems you will face, who have gone through it and encountered the unlucky nature of what you are trying to do and you have to be willing to accept all of those problems without bitching about them. You have to look a problem in the eye and say "SO what?" thats nothing to worry about "I got this"
its almost the advice i would give if you were just getting into gambling
Quote: heatmapYou have to look a problem in the eye and say "SO what?" thats nothing to worry about "I got this"
I disagree 100%. I've been working with game inventors for 24 years. It is the ones who are young, pumped up, and overconfident that have the worst games. I am sure they were inspired by speeches about following your dreams and never let anyone stand in your way. I'm all in favor of doing what you want to do in life, but that has to be tempered with some cold hard reality sometimes.
If you must pursue getting into the extremely competitive and heartbreaking world of inventing table games -- don't quit your day job. Do it on the side.
Quote: WizardI disagree 100%. I've been working with game inventors for 24 years. It is the ones who are young, pumped up, and overconfident that have the worst games. I am sure they were inspired by speeches about following your dreams and never let anyone stand in your way. I'm all in favor of doing what you want to do in life, but that has to be tempered with some cold hard reality sometimes.
If you must pursue getting into the extremely competitive and heartbreaking world of inventing table games -- don't quit your day job. Do it on the side.
sorry i was trying to light a fire under his ass to get him moving i guess i have a bit of a different perspective on how to motivate people i guess.
doubt is the biggest obstacle here imo
I get what you're saying. Sometimes telling someone that they can't do something is the best way to motivate them. And, if you're gonna do that, you gotta tell them to ignore the nay sayers.
I get it.
However, ordinarily, the nay sayers are clueless civilians that think you don't have what it takes. They may be right, but they generally have no real experience in the area to draw such a conclusion.
The posts in this thread have been good advice coupled with the reasons that it's difficult, offered by people who have the experience to provide those opinions.
It's hard to brush that off.
Now, on to your challenge.
Quote: heatmapI say learn what it takes to be a game designer before even thinking about a casino game
Whats awesome is that everything Ive been reading here actually applies to the game Im making.
My game is a casino game. But you cant play it in the casino as its not a table game or slot machine.
Have fun figuring that one out.
Oh wait. That's reality.
Quote: DJTeddyBearHeatMap
I get what you're saying. Sometimes telling someone that they can't do something is the best way to motivate them. And, if you're gonna do that, you gotta tell them to ignore the nay sayers.
I get it.
However, ordinarily, the nay sayers are clueless civilians that think you don't have what it takes. They may be right, but they generally have no real experience in the area to draw such a conclusion.
The posts in this thread have been good advice coupled with the reasons that it's difficult, offered by people who have the experience to provide those opinions.
It's hard to brush that off.
Now, on to your challenge.A Las Vegas version of Monopoly, where there are only two monopolies of hotels.
Oh wait. That's reality.
as of this point the only thing you could do is add to the idea.
my idea has been something people have been doing FOREVER
ive just GAMIFIED it and wrote it down
people have tried to do SOMETHING like this... but never have they ever known how to gamify things or why to gamify things.
im not doing anything NEW. just refining what has already been forgotten and not monetized in the way I THINK. < damn you Wizard you have planted doubt into my mind!
Quote: teliotI had dozens of would-be inventors approach me over the years who made a similar proposition -- I'll give you a share if you do the math and help me design the game. It's like asking an architect to wait to be paid for his blueprints until after all the units in the building are rented, only the building is being built on quicksand and has a 99% chance of sinking before the building is completed. The answer for me was always no as well.
I don't know what you're talking about, I never made any proposal? Also, I'm not looking for someone to do the math when I don't have a game yet. I'm looking for someone to teach me about casino game design or list game design in general. The subject seems to be a bit of magic that nobody fully understands yet but some people almost know everything about the subject.
Quote: DRichEven if your game gets a trial install in a casino it is still likely to make $0. I helped a company get their electronic table game into a casino and it failed miserably. They probably had over $100,000 invested in it between design work, patents, software engineering, legal fees, etc. The game lasted for about 45 days on the casino floor before being pulled. As far as I know it never had another install.
Remember, there are a lot more slot machines in a casino than there are table games. Very few independent game developers have been successful in slot machines. I was fortunate enough to get about 300 video poker games installed in casinos but my game also failed. If you find success with a slot machine the opportunity to make money is available but very difficult. I was able to make a little by licensing my game to a manufacturer that was willing to guarantee a minimum royalty deal.
Thank you for helping me, so 300 install for gaming machines if I do go? And what the average profit for those gaming machines? Also how many installs of table games are the best game designers getting?
Quote: heatmapI say learn what it takes to be a game designer before even thinking about a casino game
Whats awesome is that everything Ive been reading here actually applies to the game Im making.
My game is a casino game. But you cant play it in the casino as its not a table game or slot machine.
Have fun figuring that one out.
It's a board game like monopoly where you collect different casinos and players battle for customers lol
Quote: heatmapQuote: WizardI disagree 100%. I've been working with game inventors for 24 years. It is the ones who are young, pumped up, and overconfident that have the worst games. I am sure they were inspired by speeches about following your dreams and never let anyone stand in your way. I'm all in favor of doing what you want to do in life, but that has to be tempered with some cold hard reality sometimes.
If you must pursue getting into the extremely competitive and heartbreaking world of inventing table games -- don't quit your day job. Do it on the side.
sorry i was trying to light a fire under his ass to get him moving i guess i have a bit of a different perspective on how to motivate people i guess.
Honestly I appreciate the motivation and you made some very strong points. But exactly what am I now supposed to do with the motivation? I'm trying g to decide whether this is the right path for me or not. Sound like I could be making more money in the board game industry.
doubt is the biggest obstacle here imo
Several people here are either retired or very experienced. Sadly I live in the UK so have only met a few but, over the years, have got to know of their reputations. There are so many different parts that only a few have experience in the entire process.Quote: HokusPokus...I'm looking for someone to teach me...nobody fully understands yet but some people almost know everything about the subject.
Everyone on this thread is trying to be helpful, several are well known in the industry. I hope you find the combined advice from various viewpoints helpful if your decision.
I'm not sure "casino game design" is something one can be taught. There seem to be a wide variety of skills one needs to have. One can learn the technical skills but the creative side can only come from experience.
I don't know how most people "learnt" their profession and suspect some started with a mathematics degree, actuarial or computing background and then developed the skills and tools to analyse games or found they were good on the creative side. You need the foundations, but after that it's a continual learning process, especially as the industry changes.
Other skills can be less mathematical. Some have the knack of creating new ideas, so can develop innovative games. Some are effective communicators so are in a better position to market their game or explain it quickly to management. While these are skills that can be developed, typically you either have it or don't.
As has been highlighted there is a huge investment required, not only the costs of getting the game(s) to market but also the learning process. Only you know, given the honest opinions given on your chances of success, whether you want to make that investment.
I agree with others who suggest that the best course seems to be to concentrate on your current career (i.e. which pays your mortgage etc.) and hope that it encompasses some of the useful skills, e.g. computer programming, financial/actuarial, making presentations, etc.
If you go down this line then go to Spiele in Essen (Germany - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiel ); this is a huge four-day event and I suspect all the key players are there as Germany is one of the largest markets. If you're in the UK https://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/ takes place at the NEC - I've never been so don't know much about it.Quote: HokusPokus...Sound like I could be making more money in the board game industry...
There is (was?) a class at UNLV that did teach it. They had a game at the 2018 Cutting Edge show (possibly other years too). I dont remember the game or how well it did in the contest, but I do remember thinking it has a good chance.Quote: charliepatrickI'm not sure "casino game design" is something one can be taught. There seem to be a wide variety of skills one needs to have.
Quote: HokusPokusThank you for helping me, so 300 install for gaming machines if I do go? And what the average profit for those gaming machines? Also how many installs of table games are the best game designers getting?
No, I had about 300 machine installs of my game and it was a failure. IGT was projecting around a 1000 installs and my game never got close. Triple Play Poker and its variants probably had close to 20,000 machines on the floor. That was the most successful game that I know of done by a third party.
Quote: HokusPokusCharlie brings up some good points, but it's scary having to decide if my skills are good enough to entire the casino industry.
No one has asked yet (I think). Do you play table games? Video poker? Slots? Do you think you understand how slots work? Do you understand how to figure out a house edge on a table game? Do you understand countability? Game protection? So much more..... I think it would be nearly impossible to successfully design a game if you dont instinctively know the gestalt of these gambling games.
I Duplicate post. See next one.Quote: HokusPokusI don't know what you're talking about, I never made any proposal? Also, I'm not looking for someone to do the math when I don't have a game yet. I'm looking for someone to teach me about casino game design or list game design in general. The subject seems to be a bit of magic that nobody fully understands yet but some people almost know everything about the subject.
I was talking to Mike, not you. Yeah, your post above kind of triggers me, but I'll give you a second chance.Quote: HokusPokusI don't know what you're talking about, I never made any proposal? Also, I'm not looking for someone to do the math when I don't have a game yet. I'm looking for someone to teach me about casino game design or list game design in general. The subject seems to be a bit of magic that nobody fully understands yet but some people almost know everything about the subject.
I wrote a book on the topic of casino game design. It's out of print now, since my publisher died. Contemporary Casino Table Game Design. I have a few extra copies. Write me a personal email and I'll send you a copy for free.
Quote: DRichNo, I had about 300 machine installs of my game and it was a failure. IGT was projecting around a 1000 installs and my game never got close. Triple Play Poker and its variants probably had close to 20,000 machines on the floor. That was the most successful game that I know of done by a third party.
Not to mention UNLV has partnered with Draftkings most recently... Everyone here should look into that when they get the chance....
Quote: SOOPOONo one has asked yet (I think). Do you play table games? Video poker? Slots? Do you think you understand how slots work? Do you understand how to figure out a house edge on a table game? Do you understand countability? Game protection? So much more..... I think it would be nearly impossible to successfully design a game if you dont instinctively know the gestalt of these gambling games.
Yes I play table games every so often and video poker but not so much slots. I don't think I understand how all the slits work. I am ok at statistics and algebra, that's about it. I dont know what accountability is or game protection. I dont even know what gestalt means. Thank you for your help, you seem to know what your talking about maybe you could explain.
Quote: teliotI was talking to Mike, not you. Yeah, your post above kind of triggers me, but I'll give you a second chance.
I wrote a book on the topic of casino game design. It's out of print now, since my publisher died. Contemporary Casino Table Game Design. I have a few extra copies. Write me a personal email and I'll send you a copy for free.
hokuspokus408@gmail.com
Quote: WizardThe Nevada Gaming Control Board lists 1,233 approved games. Most of them appear to be table games. How many of them do you see around today?
I think you make a good point. However I feel that high risk is acceptable for high reward. But I'm not sure if there is a way to make a million in profit in this industry selling games and it seems like the effort could be extreme unless you really think it's all just luck??? That's not what every other game designer preaches.
*** By Roger Snow (Senior Vice President, Scientific Games):
Peruse for a minute the list of popular New Table Games out there today that havent existed in the public arena (not to mention the public domain) for hundreds of years. Because thats all it will take: a minute.
One could argue that since Caribbean Stud gave birth to this segment back in 1988, the only other proprietary table games - thats games, not side bets - to attain legitimate and longstanding commercial viability are the ones below... http://buff.ly/2sl3YWW
* Casino Holdem® Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®). CasinoHoldemW.com
* Three Card Poker (Derek Webb). http://buff.ly/2sHqkBf
* Free Bet Blackjack (Geoff Hall). http://buff.ly/2tE02Vi
* Crazy 4 Poker (Roger Snow). http://buff.ly/2sHKsTY
** Sung to the tune of Im Just a Bill by Schoolhouse Rock:
Im a new game
Yes, Im just a new game
And Im wishing youll come over and play
Well, its a long, long journey
To make it in this racket
Its a long, long wait
Most inventors cannot hack it
But I know Ill be a hit some day
Oh how I hope and pray for acclaim
But till then I remain a new game.
THE TOP-3 Legend of New Table Games®:
* Stephen Au-Yeung (THE Chinese Man):
Casino Hold'em® | Unlimited® Blackjack | Raise'em® Poker-Plus | Roulette 18® | Contrast® Bonus-Baccarat | Ten-20® Bonus-Blackjack and...
* Derek Webb (English Man with Glasses):
Three Card Poker / 21+3 and...
* Geoff Hall (The Other English Man):
Free-Bet Blackjack / Blackjack-Switch and ...
Quote: HokusPokusYes I play table games every so often and video poker but not so much slots. I don't think I understand how all the slits work. I am ok at statistics and algebra, that's about it. I dont know what accountability is or game protection. I dont even know what gestalt means. Thank you for your help, you seem to know what your talking about maybe you could explain.
Countability..... simple example..... If there is some poker game you develop that queens are wild for the player, and there is more than one deal without the cards being shuffled, it is likely in a queen rich deck the player would have an advantage, and thus bet more than usual.
Game protection.... simply put, you have to make sure that the game cant be exploited easily by either players or dealers who want to cheat.
Ill let you look up gestalt.
I do know what Im talking about....most everything I say on this subject has been learned from this forum. Ive had ideas about new games but never considered trying to do what you are trying.
Again, the terms are that you write me a personal email to request a copy. My email address can be found on my website, see my signature below.Quote: HokusPokushokuspokus408@gmail.com
There have been exactly two books written on this topic, the one by Dan Lubin and my book (which came six years earlier than Dan's). I would assume that you are serious about your ambition, in which case reading these two books should be at the top of your to-do list.
Here you go:
https://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Casino-Table-Game-Design/dp/B01K3K98AY/
Kind regards.
Quote: HokusPokusAre Stephen Au-Yeung, Derek Webb, or Geoff Hall members of this forum?
Stephen is a prolific poster here. (Mr. Casino Games)
I believe Geoff has been here in the past, but not recently. Could be wrong.
I do not believe Derek is a poster here. Could be wrong.
Quote: SOOPOOCountability..... simple example..... If there is some poker game you develop that queens are wild for the player, and there is more than one deal without the cards being shuffled, it is likely in a queen rich deck the player would have an advantage, and thus bet more than usual.
Game protection.... simply put, you have to make sure that the game cant be exploited easily by either players or dealers who want to cheat.
Ill let you look up gestalt.
I do know what Im talking about....most everything I say on this subject has been learned from this forum. Ive had ideas about new games but never considered trying to do what you are trying.
Very helpful. So games that shuffle the deck every game have no countablity issues, yes? Game protection seems important. Gestalt seems to be how each detail fits into the larger scope of things?
Quote: SOOPOOStephen is a prolific poster here. (Mr. Casino Games)
I believe Geoff has been here in the past, but not recently. Could be wrong.
I do not believe Derek is a poster here. Could be wrong.
So Mr.CasinoGames is saying he's 1 of the 3 best table game designers?
Quote: teliotAgain, the terms are that you write me a personal email to request a copy. My email address can be found on my website, see my signature below.
There have been exactly two books written on this topic, the one by Dan Lubin and my book (which came six years earlier than Dan's). I would assume that you are serious about your ambition, in which case reading these two books should be at the top of your to-do list.
Here you go:
https://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Casino-Table-Game-Design/dp/B01K3K98AY/
Kind regards.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesIm New Table Games 'Till then I remain a New Table Game. http://buff.ly/2sl3YWW
*** By Roger Snow (Senior Vice President, Scientific Games):
Peruse for a minute the list of popular New Table Games out there today that havent existed in the public arena (not to mention the public domain) for hundreds of years. Because thats all it will take: a minute.
One could argue that since Caribbean Stud gave birth to this segment back in 1988, the only other proprietary table games - thats games, not side bets - to attain legitimate and longstanding commercial viability are the ones below... http://buff.ly/2sl3YWW
* Casino Holdem® Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®). CasinoHoldemW.com
* Three Card Poker (Derek Webb). http://buff.ly/2sHqkBf
* Free Bet Blackjack (Geoff Hall). http://buff.ly/2tE02Vi
* Crazy 4 Poker (Roger Snow). http://buff.ly/2sHKsTY
** Sung to the tune of Im Just a Bill by Schoolhouse Rock:
Im a new game
Yes, Im just a new game
And Im wishing youll come over and play
Well, its a long, long journey
To make it in this racket
Its a long, long wait
Most inventors cannot hack it
But I know Ill be a hit some day
Oh how I hope and pray for acclaim
But till then I remain a new game.
THE TOP-3 Legend of New Table Games®:
* Stephen Au-Yeung (THE Chinese Man):
Casino Hold'em® | Unlimited® Blackjack | Raise'em® Poker-Plus | Roulette 18® | Contrast® Bonus-Baccarat | Ten-20® Bonus-Blackjack and...
* Derek Webb (English Man with Glasses):
Three Card Poker / 21+3 and...
* Geoff Hall (The Other English Man):
Free-Bet Blackjack / Blackjack-Switch and ...
Thank you for all your help, could you please give me some advice or some information on what I should be studying?
Thanks for asking.
Sorry, I don't give advice.
BTW. Members of this forum have given a lot of good advice already, and I agree with most of them.
I believe Geoff used to post here as Switch, in honor of his game blackjack switchQuote: SOOPOOStephen is a prolific poster here. (Mr. Casino Games)
I believe Geoff has been here in the past, but not recently. Could be wrong.
I do not believe Derek is a poster here. Could be wrong.
Quote: teliotI believe Geoff used to post here as Switch, in honor of his game blackjack switch
That's true.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesHi HokusPokus,
Thanks for asking.
Sorry, I don't give advice.
BTW. Members of this forum have given a lot of good advice already, and I agree with most of them.
Why hello there Mr. Au-Yeung. Haven't seen you since 2019 Cutting Edge Table games Convention. How have you been since Covid?
If the Player is only allowed one hand and cannot see the other Player's hands and it's a fresh deck then you are correct.Quote: HokusPokusVery helpful. So games that shuffle the deck every game have no countablity issues, yes? Game protection seems important....
There can be implications if you can see other people's hands, but this usually only applies to Poker based games as it gives you a lot of information about what the dealer might have. For instance I believe in 3-card poker seeing 5 other hands means you sometimes fold some better Qxx hands and on other occasions call with nothing; but it doesn't overcome the underlying House Edge.
Quote: HokusPokusVery helpful. So games that shuffle the deck every game have no countablity issues, yes? Game protection seems important. Gestalt seems to be how each detail fits into the larger scope of things?
Ill address game protection. There are APs galore on this forum. They have trained their minds to look for these possibilities. You put out rules to your game and the first thing they think.... is the side bet countable? If I see a hole card what is my advantage? Are there situations where the dealer will make an error in my favor? Other examples include player collusion, edge sorting, card clumping, and more.... And then there is protection from dealer cheating. And player cheating.
Teliot who graciously offered you a free book, is a world expert on these matters.
I've met Derek several times, he never struck me as a type of person who would participate on a message board. What I will say is that he was in the middle of any number of lawsuits related to his games that took years to resolve. I only hope all of those are now over so he can enjoy his prosperity.Quote: SOOPOOStephen is a prolific poster here. (Mr. Casino Games)
I believe Geoff has been here in the past, but not recently. Could be wrong.
I do not believe Derek is a poster here. Could be wrong.
It should also be noted that Roger Snow has posted here on occasion.
Quote: teliotI've met Derek several times, he never struck me as a type of person who would participate on a message board. What I will say is that he was in the middle of any number of lawsuits related to his games that took years to resolve. I only hope all of those are now over so he can enjoy his prosperity.
It should also be noted that Roger Snow has posted here on occasion.
I agree, Derek always seemed rather reserved in my dealings with him. Of course, it has been over 10 years since I have worked with Derek. If I recall correctly his big lawsuit with Mikohn was resolved favorably for Derek although I am sure his legal bills were hefty.
Quote: USpapergamesWhy hello there Mr. Au-Yeung. Haven't seen you since 2019 Cutting Edge Table games Convention. How have you been since Covid?
I am Good, USpapergames..
Thanks you.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesI am Good, USpapergames..
Thanks you.
Good to here! I hope Covid hasn't affected your game design business as much as it has mine. If I remember correctly I even survived you your lunch plate at the cutting edge table games conference because their was no service in the beginning lol. I also remember you were very polite to me when several others weren't & I wont forget it ;)
Quote: HokusPokusHi, I've been trying very hard to get some information from the forum and I've been somewhat successful. How does someone design gambling games for a living? Who should I learn from? What skills do I need to succeed in this industry? Is designing new gambling games profitable in Covid times? What's the competition look like? How much work is it vs designing a tabletop game? I'm sure there are plenty of regulations involving laws around gambling games, but I'm more curious about what it takes to succeed, not the requirements since there is no point in getting a game inside a casino if it's just going to fail.
I just want to say that what you are doing is BY FAR the smartest thing I have ever seen ANY aspiring game designer do. What's scary is that your strategy was very similar to what mine was, with just one difference. But your actually doing one thing better than me, you discovered this website far sooner than I did in my career & I didn't even know this site was full of people in the casino industry till recently. So you are actually ahead of me in some things but I'm not sure if your skills are at the level mine were at your age so can't make any judgements. Keep doing what your doing, your on the right path!!!
Quote: MrCasinoGamesHi HokusPokus,
Thanks for asking.
Sorry, I don't give advice.
BTW. Members of this forum have given a lot of good advice already, and I agree with most of them.
Ok, a least I tried. But I feel sad now.
Quote: charliepatrickIf the Player is only allowed one hand and cannot see the other Player's hands and it's a fresh deck then you are correct.
There can be implications if you can see other people's hands, but this usually only applies to Poker based games as it gives you a lot of information about what the dealer might have. For instance I believe in 3-card poker seeing 5 other hands means you sometimes fold some better Qxx hands and on other occasions call with nothing; but it doesn't overcome the underlying House Edge.
Nice, how did you learn all this?
Quote: teliotI've met Derek several times, he never struck me as a type of person who would participate on a message board. What I will say is that he was in the middle of any number of lawsuits related to his games that took years to resolve. I only hope all of those are now over so he can enjoy his prosperity.
It should also be noted that Roger Snow has posted here on occasion.
Again, thank you so much for your help Mr. Eliot! I should be getting my book shortly.
Quote: charliepatrick...3-card poker seeing 5 other hands means you sometimes fold some better Qxx hands and on other occasions call with nothing; but it doesn't overcome the underlying House Edge.
In essence I ran a simulation where each hand looked at the last 15 cards in the deck and worked out what to do based on the other cards left in the deck. Over time I have built up a library of procedures: random number generator, shuffling cards, etc.Quote: HokusPokusNice, how did you learn all this?
Our school had a PDP 8 so I started programming very early. It hasn't been mentioned here but my guess is that several here also had careers in the Actuarial or Computing arenas when mainframes were the most popular. Some banks probably still use code originally written in the 70s.
You certainly want to listen to anything Mike says or has written about game development, and there are several others here who have a lot of hands-on experience and give great advice. It may just take you a while to learn who's who. This site is amazing when it comes to the game development talent who have contributed over the years.Quote: HokusPokusAs far as advice is concerned Eliot is my man.
