Thread Rating:

Poll

4 votes (33.33%)
No votes (0%)
8 votes (66.66%)

12 members have voted

HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 14th, 2021 at 12:05:26 PM permalink
Hi, I've been trying very hard to get some information from the forum and I've been somewhat successful. How does someone design gambling games for a living? Who should I learn from? What skills do I need to succeed in this industry? Is designing new gambling games profitable in Covid times? What's the competition look like? How much work is it vs designing a tabletop game? I'm sure there are plenty of regulations involving laws around gambling games, but I'm more curious about what it takes to succeed, not the requirements since there is no point in getting a game inside a casino if it's just going to fail.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 14th, 2021 at 2:24:35 PM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

Hi, I've been trying very hard to get some information from the forum and I've been somewhat successful. How does someone design gambling games for a living? Who should I learn from? What skills do I need to succeed in this industry? Is designing new gambling games profitable in Covid times? What's the competition look like? How much work is it vs designing a tabletop game? I'm sure there are plenty of regulations involving laws around gambling games, but I'm more curious about what it takes to succeed, not the requirements since there is no point in getting a game inside a casino if it's just going to fail.



Good luck, it is harder than it sounds but at least you are willing to dig into it. If you are thinking table games there are a couple books out there written by members of this forum. Video games are probably a little tougher as you need to find something that hasn't been done and patent it. Not that it is hard but you will have the patent expenses before you are able to sell it or license it.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 11008
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
Thanked by
HokusPokusIndyJeffrey
February 14th, 2021 at 3:32:16 PM permalink
The Essentials of Casino Game Design: From the Cocktail Napkin to the Casino Floor https://www.amazon.com/dp/1935396722/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_QYKSCZVANQCWA1WS28Q6

Dan was a well respected and somewhat outspoken member here as well as a successful game designer.

He passed away rather suddenly almost four years ago.

I miss you, Dan. 😥
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 14th, 2021 at 5:17:59 PM permalink
Thank you. I'd love as much of your insight as possible. I was thinking tabletop games, don't know anything about programming. If it's so hard, where is everyone failing? Is it just too difficult to think of a new game?
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2967
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
Thanked by
MrCasinoGamesRealizeGamingHokusPokus
February 14th, 2021 at 5:33:40 PM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

...Is it just too difficult to think of a new game?

With the right mindset it's certainly possible to think of new games (probably it helps if you can analyse them yourself as then quicker to iron out some of the technical details and spot the dogs). The issue is whether the concept works with the public and can be marketed.

It might be easier to think of pop music songs and how some singers have success and others, many others, fall by the wayside. Even experienced record companies don't always know the hits before they happen.

Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
charliepatrick
February 14th, 2021 at 5:51:23 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

With the right mindset it's certainly possible to think of new games (probably it helps if you can analyse them yourself as then quicker to iron out some of the technical details and spot the dogs). The issue is whether the concept works with the public and can be marketed.

It might be easier to think of pop music songs and how some singers have success and others, many others, fall by the wayside. Even experienced record companies don't always know the hits before they happen.

Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.



Great post.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 14th, 2021 at 6:31:56 PM permalink
I think the number of people who get a regular paycheck from an employer to design games is zero. Somebody might say Roger Snow, but he does a lot more than that. You have to create and market your games. Dan's book is a good place to start or my own Game Inventor's Corner.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
  • Threads: 80
  • Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
February 14th, 2021 at 7:52:18 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I think the number of people who get a regular paycheck from an employer to design games is zero. Somebody might say Roger Snow, but he does a lot more than that. You have to create and market your games. Dan's book is a good place to start or my own Game Inventor's Corner.



I agree with you. Especially on tables. Every casino has the same half dozen games. Some casinos have some interesting one-off/rare games, but those games aren't placed nearly enough for someone to be employed to continually develop new ones. I really didn't expect this when I started collecting chips. Being from the Midwest - and SD /ND /IA being places with unique games - I expected more of that variety. It just isn't there.

Roger has what I think is my favorite presence on LinkedIn. I don't think I've ever seen an executive openly have that much fun at work. And I have no doubt that he relishes his position as SG's poet laureate.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
MrCasinoGames
MrCasinoGames
  • Threads: 200
  • Posts: 12493
Joined: Sep 13, 2010
Thanked by
HokusPokus
February 14th, 2021 at 10:46:05 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

With the right mindset it's certainly possible to think of new games (probably it helps if you can analyse them yourself as then quicker to iron out some of the technical details and spot the dogs). The issue is whether the concept works with the public and can be marketed.

It might be easier to think of pop music songs and how some singers have success and others, many others, fall by the wayside. Even experienced record companies don't always know the hits before they happen.

Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.


New Table Games are not hard to invent, but Very-Hard to get it going and Super-Hard to get any installations.
I have 200+ of them today. e.g. LegendOfNewTableGames.com

New Table Games are cheap now are days ($50-$500 per table per month) but expensive to get it going. e.g. $30,000+
So it is very hard to make money if you don't have a lot of installations.
BTW. My New Table Games are from $50-$300 per table per month.

Also Read:
* Meet Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games). http://bit.ly/2KiadqT
* The POGG Interviews: Stephen Au-Yeung Creator of Casino Hold弾m®. http://bit.ly/2Zo2Gvs
* Never Ending News: NeverEndingNews.com

Good luck to ALL the New Table Games inventors out there.


THE TOP-3 Legend of New Table Games®: see IMAGE.

* Stephen Au-Yeung (THE Chinese Man):
Casino Hold'em® | Unlimited® Blackjack | Raise'em® Poker-Plus | Roulette 18® | Contrast® Bonus-Baccarat | Ten-20® Bonus-Blackjack and 200+ Others...

* Derek Webb (English Man with Glasses):
Three Card Poker / 21+3 and Others...

* Geoff Hall (The Other English Man):
Free-Bet Blackjack / Blackjack-Switch and ​Others...
Last edited by: MrCasinoGames on Feb 14, 2021
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
TumblingBones
TumblingBones
  • Threads: 29
  • Posts: 529
Joined: Dec 25, 2016
February 15th, 2021 at 8:04:08 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.


I'm really hoping that "graft" was a typo but then again, maybe it isn't. :)
My goal of being well informed conflicts with my goal of remaining sane.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 11008
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 15th, 2021 at 8:06:02 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

I'm more curious about what it takes to succeed, not the requirements since there is no point in getting a game inside a casino if it's just going to fail.

Good question. Unfortunately, that's hard to say.

While the gamblers must enjoy it, figuring out what people will enjoy is a challenge in itself. For example, I totally do not get Baccarat. In the low stakes, where the dealer does all the work, it's about as exciting as a coin flip. In the higher stakes, a player gets to handle the cards, squeezing them, as if to bluff the dealer while deciding to take another card. Hello! The rules of Baccarat already determine if the player gets another card or not. But people seem to love it.

But I digress.

You're right. It makes no sense to put a new game in a casino if it's going to fail. Unfortunately, it's really hard to get into a casino, and you won't really know if it will succeed until it's in a casino. So you're better off focusing on what's needed to get it into a casino.

Most important is the profitability. The players need to enjoy it enough to play it, while losing enough so that the game makes more money than the game it has replaced.

Next most important is simplicity. It needs to be easily described, with simple rules. If there's any difficulty in either of those areas, players won't understand it and/or dealers won't want to explain it. You might think it's their job to explain it, but if they have to slow the game down to explain stuff too often or for too long, forget it. Dealers can kill games that they don't like.

Hope this helps.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 11008
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
February 15th, 2021 at 8:07:23 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

... my own Game Inventor's Corner.

Wiz -

Do you mean the Game Inventor's Corner here on WoV? This thread IS in that area, so I'm thinking you mean something else.

On that note, do you still have your website from your days as a math / game inventor consultant? Even if you're not doing that anymore, there was a lot of good info there.

I would hope that it still exists, even as a side directory on WoV or WoO.

I can't find it anywhere...
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 16th, 2021 at 6:21:04 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

With the right mindset it's certainly possible to think of new games (probably it helps if you can analyse them yourself as then quicker to iron out some of the technical details and spot the dogs). The issue is whether the concept works with the public and can be marketed.

It might be easier to think of pop music songs and how some singers have success and others, many others, fall by the wayside. Even experienced record companies don't always know the hits before they happen.

Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.



You sound very smart, & it makes sense to need the ability to analyze games to be able to create new games that are good. What do you mean by if the game can be marketed, surely you can market any game? Your analogy of game design as similar to pop music actually scares me. Your telling me the industry can't tell if a game will be successful makes me assume the industry doesn't know how to analyze games effectively. If the buyer doesn't know if my game will make them money, then how am I supposed to stand out from the crowd? What do you mean by graft?
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 16th, 2021 at 6:28:58 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I think the number of people who get a regular paycheck from an employer to design games is zero. Somebody might say Roger Snow, but he does a lot more than that. You have to create and market your games. Dan's book is a good place to start or my own Game Inventor's Corner.



I don't like the sound of also marketing my games. So in tabletop games often your manufacture & distributor will market your game with you, as a group effort. It's already difficult to market a game to the consumer, I don't even what to think about what marketing a game to casinos looks like. Maybe I should just quit now.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 16th, 2021 at 6:32:35 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

I agree with you. Especially on tables. Every casino has the same half dozen games. Some casinos have some interesting one-off/rare games, but those games aren't placed nearly enough for someone to be employed to continually develop new ones. I really didn't expect this when I started collecting chips. Being from the Midwest - and SD /ND /IA being places with unique games - I expected more of that variety. It just isn't there.

Roger has what I think is my favorite presence on LinkedIn. I don't think I've ever seen an executive openly have that much fun at work. And I have no doubt that he relishes his position as SG's poet laureate.



Chip collecting is a cool hobby, the chips could be worthless if the casino changes to a different chip type.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 16th, 2021 at 6:41:49 PM permalink
MrCasinoMan has officially scared me with the numbers. I'm assuming installs mean how many tables of your game are being played, so how many installs is the average amount? Sounds like I'd be making ALOT more money in the tabletop industry....and here I was thinking I could get rich from casino games.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 16th, 2021 at 6:54:53 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Good question. Unfortunately, that's hard to say.

While the gamblers must enjoy it, figuring out what people will enjoy is a challenge in itself. For example, I totally do not get Baccarat. In the low stakes, where the dealer does all the work, it's about as exciting as a coin flip. In the higher stakes, a player gets to handle the cards, squeezing them, as if to bluff the dealer while deciding to take another card. Hello! The rules of Baccarat already determine if the player gets another card or not. But people seem to love it.

But I digress.

You're right. It makes no sense to put a new game in a casino if it's going to fail. Unfortunately, it's really hard to get into a casino, and you won't really know if it will succeed until it's in a casino. So you're better off focusing on what's needed to get it into a casino.

Most important is the profitability. The players need to enjoy it enough to play it, while losing enough so that the game makes more money than the game it has replaced.

Next most important is simplicity. It needs to be easily described, with simple rules. If there's any difficulty in either of those areas, players won't understand it and/or dealers won't want to explain it. You might think it's their job to explain it, but if they have to slow the game down to explain stuff too often or for too long, forget it. Dealers can kill games that they don't like.

Hope this helps.



A game that makes the casino more money sounds like a requirement, thank you for sharing. As for your requirement about game simplicity, most current tabletop games have done away with the simplicity approach since they often don't produce engaging game experience for players. But your saying the exact opposite is true? Your explanation makes sense but what about games like Keno or Poker? Surely a dealer can't teach ultimate texas holdem in the time it takes to play a game?
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2967
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 16th, 2021 at 8:15:09 PM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

You sound very smart, & it makes sense to need the ability to analyze games to be able to create new games that are good. What do you mean by if the game can be marketed, surely you can market any game? Your analogy of game design as similar to pop music actually scares me. Your telling me the industry can't tell if a game will be successful makes me assume the industry doesn't know how to analyze games effectively. If the buyer doesn't know if my game will make them money, then how am I supposed to stand out from the crowd? What do you mean by graft?

Thank you.


It's good to look at other industries for similarities as to what is needed to have success. Obviously one could hit the jackpot and come up with a brilliant idea that just works, a song that becomes an international hit, take a photograph that goes round the world. However realistically it is more likely to come from research, understanding what customers typically enjoy/buy.

I remember being at a cricket match once, the photographer explained the tactics the bowler was using to get the batsman out, and so he concentrated on the wicket and close fielders. Sure enough a few minutes later he got the perfect photo of the batsman being caught out, in the way he described. Yes there was some luck but it was down to planning, knowledge, an understanding of the players and the game. Of course he also needs to have the technical skills (owning the best camera/lens combination, setting the correct exposure etc.) to take the photo.

"Graft" means putting in the hours of preparation, learning the trade, getting to know the business, understanding what's already in the market.


There's a difference between the technical part (House Edge, practical implications, countability or security issues, etc.) and being able to spot a winner. The former is analytical, going through various calculations and checks - it obviously helps if you can get a feeling for these, even better if you can do the analysis yourself. The latter is a feeling that something is just right - I imagine that comes with experience.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 16th, 2021 at 10:14:28 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Thank you.


It's good to look at other industries for similarities as to what is needed to have success. Obviously one could hit the jackpot and come up with a brilliant idea that just works, a song that becomes an international hit, take a photograph that goes round the world. However realistically it is more likely to come from research, understanding what customers typically enjoy/buy.

I remember being at a cricket match once, the photographer explained the tactics the bowler was using to get the batsman out, and so he concentrated on the wicket and close fielders. Sure enough a few minutes later he got the perfect photo of the batsman being caught out, in the way he described. Yes there was some luck but it was down to planning, knowledge, an understanding of the players and the game. Of course he also needs to have the technical skills (owning the best camera/lens combination, setting the correct exposure etc.) to take the photo.

"Graft" means putting in the hours of preparation, learning the trade, getting to know the business, understanding what's already in the market.


There's a difference between the technical part (House Edge, practical implications, countability or security issues, etc.) and being able to spot a winner. The former is analytical, going through various calculations and checks - it obviously helps if you can get a feeling for these, even better if you can do the analysis yourself. The latter is a feeling that something is just right - I imagine that comes with experience.



You definitely know a lot, and you make me feel better knowing that someone can predict success with knowledge & experience. But that still doesn't change the issue of getting around casino's lack of ability to pick a winning game. So even if I am able to make a casino game that is better than the competition I'm still rolling the dice that a casino will ever install the game. Even if they do install the game, doesn't sound like it's a lot of money. Do slot machines also make a flat fee between $50-300 a month? This just sounds like chump change to what they make. Could I mentor under you, I think I need someone to teach me this industry.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2967
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
February 17th, 2021 at 5:12:33 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

...I think I need someone to teach me this industry.

I like to consider myself a reasonable photographer, but not quite to the standard needed to win camera club competitions (there's a very strong camera club in my area). I'm broadly self-taught and used to pick up tips from talks by top photographers. I learnt some of the technical side from books etc. but mainly from doing it. I know I could learn more but want to keep it a hobby which I enjoy rather than a "profession".

If you thinking of becoming a singer I would be suggesting you consult a specialist; they may be able to train your voice (or whatever) and also give an honest opinion. If you were thinking of becoming a professional photographer then it's a tough world. You're on your own as the competition is fairly stiff and so have to learn the science and develop your own niche market. I stumbled across one, who took amazing photographs of dogs (which was what I trying to learn at the time) but because she had the ability to work well with people, this helped her take good portraits.

A successful photographer has to master their own craft, build up a reputation and then market their services. The photographers at Premier League football have worked their way up though the lower leagues.

Thus you should already have some of the skills, then develop a list of contacts and build on these through perseverance.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
  • Threads: 122
  • Posts: 11096
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
February 17th, 2021 at 6:22:20 AM permalink
Hocus.... if I missed this info.... sorry for repeating....
How old are you? What level of schooling have you completed? What job do you have now? Where in the country are you located? Can you afford tens of thousands of dollars, or at a minimum, thousands of dollars to invest with a realistic possibility of no return?

My guess is that after hearing the answers the advice will be this....
Go for your dream! But do it AFTER WORK! There are a bunch on here who have done so. BeachBumBabs. Buzzard. DJTeddyBear. Others.

As far as you asking for a 僧entor, these people I mentioned, and others as well, will be most happy to offer advice. Just ask virtually any question you want and you will likely get great answers here.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
HokusPokus
February 17th, 2021 at 6:44:02 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO



As far as you asking for a 僧entor, these people I mentioned, and others as well, will be most happy to offer advice. Just ask virtually any question you want and you will likely get great answers here.



SOOPOO hit it on the head. This website has people that have been involved in about every aspect of Casino Gaming. Just keep asking questions and most of the advice you get here will help positively guide you.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 17th, 2021 at 6:42:05 PM permalink
I like what Charlie said. I think he is right that I need to find a mentor that can evaluate my skills before I spend years trying to get any success in this industry. Thank you for being so honest about your skills. But honestly, I'm not sure I want to build a reputation or market my games. Should I just quit now or is there another way? Sounds like building a reputation is a lifelong achievement & marketing games to casinos sounds like a nightmare. None of that sounds appealing to me at all.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 17th, 2021 at 7:02:37 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Hocus.... if I missed this info.... sorry for repeating....
How old are you? What level of schooling have you completed? What job do you have now? Where in the country are you located? Can you afford tens of thousands of dollars, or at a minimum, thousands of dollars to invest with a realistic possibility of no return?

My guess is that after hearing the answers the advice will be this....
Go for your dream! But do it AFTER WORK! There are a bunch on here who have done so. BeachBumBabs. Buzzard. DJTeddyBear. Others.

As far as you asking for a 僧entor, these people I mentioned, and others as well, will be most happy to offer advice. Just ask virtually any question you want and you will likely get great answers here.



Thank you for evaluating my skills. I'm 26, I have a bachelors in physiology & I am a registered as an associate clinical social worker at the department of human assistance. I live in California & I can afford tens of thousands of dollars if I save up log enough. I was planning on spending a few years learning the skills to succeed so I could have a few years of savings. You say to do this after work but that makes no sense to me because then I would have to wait years after I've retired to make casino games. Maybe my brain isn't as sharp then or maybe I just don't have the drive then. I have free time at work, plus I don't know how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
February 17th, 2021 at 7:27:10 PM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

Thank you for evaluating my skills. I'm 26, I have a bachelors in physiology & I am a registered as an associate clinical social worker at the department of human assistance. I live in California & I can afford tens of thousands of dollars if I save up log enough. I was planning on spending a few years learning the skills to succeed so I could have a few years of savings. You say to do this after work but that makes no sense to me because then I would have to wait years after I've retired to make casino games. Maybe my brain isn't as sharp then or maybe I just don't have the drive then. I have free time at work, plus I don't know how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me.



I think he was implying not to quit your day job to pursue this. Spend the time after working hours to pursue it. Think of it as a second job until you are successful.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 17th, 2021 at 9:41:46 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I think he was implying not to quit your day job to pursue this. Spend the time after working hours to pursue it. Think of it as a second job until you are successful.



Yes, that is what I was planning on doing. I can afford to quit my job but I also would like to make some extra money.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
  • Threads: 122
  • Posts: 11096
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
February 18th, 2021 at 7:18:40 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

Thank you for evaluating my skills. I'm 26, I have a bachelors in physiology & I am a registered as an associate clinical social worker at the department of human assistance. I live in California & I can afford tens of thousands of dollars if I save up log enough. I was planning on spending a few years learning the skills to succeed so I could have a few years of savings. You say to do this after work but that makes no sense to me because then I would have to wait years after I've retired to make casino games. Maybe my brain isn't as sharp then or maybe I just don't have the drive then. I have free time at work, plus I don't know how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me.



You seem like you have a reasonable plan. I did mean 'don't give up your job' as opposed to waiting until your present career was over! I believe people on this forum use the phrase 'side gig'.

One of the problems with asking for help here, if it becomes even a little specific, is the need to have your idea patented before putting it out in a public forum. And that costs money.

The one worrisome part is "how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me". I'm an old guy, 60. My job 'took a toll on me' for 35 years. But I NEVER worried about not being able to 'keep doing my job'. I've never been a game designer, but have followed the trials and tribulations of those on here who have. IT IS NOT EASY! If you are having trouble coping with a regular 9-5 job, I think an independent game design attempt will be FAR harder.

Perhaps you just need a different 'regular' job?
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
February 18th, 2021 at 7:23:33 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Wiz -

Do you mean the Game Inventor's Corner here on WoV? This thread IS in that area, so I'm thinking you mean something else.



I mean the corner at Wizard of Odds.

Quote:

On that note, do you still have your website from your days as a math / game inventor consultant? Even if you're not doing that anymore, there was a lot of good info there.

I would hope that it still exists, even as a side directory on WoV or WoO.

I can't find it anywhere...



I moved my consulting site to www.lollipopguild.org/.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
heatmap
heatmap
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 2284
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
February 18th, 2021 at 11:06:34 AM permalink
i wish i could climb that many peaks im jelly
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 18th, 2021 at 6:45:04 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

You seem like you have a reasonable plan. I did mean 'don't give up your job' as opposed to waiting until your present career was over! I believe people on this forum use the phrase 'side gig'.

One of the problems with asking for help here, if it becomes even a little specific, is the need to have your idea patented before putting it out in a public forum. And that costs money.

The one worrisome part is "how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me". I'm an old guy, 60. My job 'took a toll on me' for 35 years. But I NEVER worried about not being able to 'keep doing my job'. I've never been a game designer, but have followed the trials and tribulations of those on here who have. IT IS NOT EASY! If you are having trouble coping with a regular 9-5 job, I think an independent game design attempt will be FAR harder.

Perhaps you just need a different 'regular' job?



You might be right but what jobs did you work? I need a rewarding experience at work to get me by, it's why I choose to be a social worker because I want to make a difference. I have been thinking about going back to school and getting my LCSW or a master's degree so I could become a therapist. I don't feel like my job is currently rewarding at all. I was looking at becoming a game designer as if it was something I could learn on the side while working, something like night school only I don't want to go into debt over a career change.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 18th, 2021 at 6:48:01 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Wiz -

Do you mean the Game Inventor's Corner here on WoV? This thread IS in that area, so I'm thinking you mean something else.



I mean the corner at Wizard of Odds.



I moved my consulting site to www.lollipopguild.org/.



Perhaps I will contact you to do math work. Could you do the math for me on what profit I could expect to make if it takes me 3 years to make a casino game?
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 18th, 2021 at 6:49:29 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

i wish i could climb that many peaks im jelly



Same, but I'd like to try one day. Never been on a mountain before.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 18th, 2021 at 6:55:12 PM permalink
Can someone please help me? The money just doesn't seem right to me. Casino table games make so little money so do the machines also make the same amount? To me, this can't be right because the machines cost a lot more to install (I hope I'm using that word correctly). But then again maybe it is right since the machines take up less space than a table game? To me selling any slot machine for $50 a month sounds like so little profit if any at all.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
February 18th, 2021 at 6:55:44 PM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus



Perhaps I will contact you to do math work. Could you do the math for me on what profit I could expect to make if it takes me 3 years to make a casino game?



Good luck with that. You probably need to expect to pay thousands of dollars for patents and math before you will even know if the game is going to able to get in a casino.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
  • Threads: 122
  • Posts: 11096
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
February 18th, 2021 at 8:21:45 PM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

You might be right but what jobs did you work? I need a rewarding experience at work to get me by, it's why I choose to be a social worker because I want to make a difference. I have been thinking about going back to school and getting my LCSW or a master's degree so I could become a therapist. I don't feel like my job is currently rewarding at all. I was looking at becoming a game designer as if it was something I could learn on the side while working, something like night school only I don't want to go into debt over a career change.



I知 a doctor... anesthesiologist. I haven稚 had a non medical job for 35 years. I felt like I 僧ade a difference. It sounds like to me that you should focus on getting your next degree, so you can get the job you will find rewarding. I think the part time game designers here were firmly established in their 喪egular jobs before undertaking the cost and time required to design a game, and actually even get a trial in a real casino.

The math helped you asked for comes at a cost. Wizard and a few others do that work, but I would be stunned if they did it on a contingent basis! The forum will help for free with the occasional simple or interesting question, but not the entire math analysis of a new game.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 11008
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
Thanked by
MrCasinoGamesHokusPokus
February 19th, 2021 at 6:45:19 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

Could you do the math for me on what profit I could expect to make if it takes me 3 years to make a casino game?

Quote: DRich

Good luck with that. You probably need to expect to pay thousands of dollars for patents and math before you will even know if the game is going to able to get in a casino.

Ditto.

Your comment makes me think you haven't really been paying attention to what we've been saying.

There are plenty of people here who will run the math for a new game that they've seen. Some will even do it for a new game concept. And they usually get the math right. But that's not the same as creating a math report and putting a reputation behind it's accuracy. Few people will do that. Of those that will, they don't come cheap.

For what it's worth, there are multiple steps involved in getting a new game into a casino. The odds of success for any step is minimal, and there isn't any step skipping.

Preliminary steps include the math, but also a patent, game description, table layout, and marketing materials. And maybe other things I'm overlooking.

A game description includes how to briefly explain the game to a player, more detail that could be incorporated into a rules hand-out card, and step-by-step of every point and procedure that the dealer must follow.

Only once you have all that do you have something that *MIGHT* be ready to present to a casino game distributor.

Few games get a meeting with a game distributor.
Of those that do, few get deals with the distributor.
Of those that do, few get presented to casino management for consideration.
Of those that do, few get offered a field trial, pending regulatory issues.
Of those that do, some will fail the regulatory requirements.
Of those that pass, few actually get the field trial.
Of those that do, few get successful results.
Of those that do, few get multiple installs.
Of those that do, few last long.
Of those that do, few get widespread distribution.
Of those that do, few generate any sizable return for the inventor.
Of those that do, few turn a profit for the inventor.

A casino insider, such as an employee of a casino or game distributor, might be able to skip the distributor step, but that's about it.

Note that the income part of those steps doesn't begin until the multiple installs step begins, and the first installs will get relatively low payments.

Also note that some of the steps will require fees and expenses. But these should be paid by the distributor (if you didn't skip that step), which will then be deducted from the payments before you get your cut.

Get the math report on a contingency? You壇 have a better chance of finding an angel investor who wants to get into the casino business in some small way, and isn稚 worried about losing a few grand.

---

I may be accused of tooting my own horn here, but I created Poker For Roulette, a roulette side bet, and Pick A Card, a completely new card game. You can get details for both at my website, http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com

I mention this because I have brief descriptions, as well as detailed descriptions, complete dealer instructions, and down-loadable literature including rule cards. I created all that before I had a meeting with a game distributor.

What my site does NOT feature is a web version of the game. Maybe I'm biased, but I think if you need to create a web version so players get a better feel for the game, then the game isn't simple enough.

Full disclosure: While I had a deal with Galaxy Gaming for my Poker For Roulette side bet, they never produced results. And I've never gotten past shopping my Pick A Card game to a distributor. In other words, I have limited experience, but no success. So take what I say with that in mind.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
  • Threads: 122
  • Posts: 11096
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
Thanked by
DJTeddyBearMrCasinoGames
February 19th, 2021 at 7:05:04 AM permalink
DJ痴 post above is something you should read about 5 times, Hocus.

I bet DJ does not regret for one minute the time and money he put in to trying to make his dream a reality. I知 not sure if this is a 租ream for you, or you just thought it was a better way to make a living than your current job. If it is the former, then I think you could still try in your after work time to work on it. If it is the latter, then I壇 say give it up.

Summary... if it is your dream, and not trying will be something you may regret the rest of your life, then go for it, even though the most likely result is failure.

If it is just trying to find a 組ood job, look elsewhere!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 11008
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
Thanked by
MrCasinoGamesIndyJeffrey
February 19th, 2021 at 9:08:55 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I bet DJ does not regret for one minute the time and money he put in to trying to make his dream a reality.

You'd win that bet. No regrets, AT ALL.

Oh, sure, I spent a bunch of money that my wife would have preferred that we put towards fixing up the house and stuff, but even she doesn't regret it. She agrees with me that trying and failing, is far better than not trying, followed by the constant, lingering feeling of, "What if...?"

And I made friends with a bunch of people, both online, and in person during my various Vegas visits to promote my games, that I never would have met.

And I still miss Dan.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2967
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
Thanked by
MrCasinoGamesHokusPokus
February 19th, 2021 at 9:42:55 AM permalink
Absolutely agree with the above. I sense it's a dream save up, save up a bit more, and then go for it.

I've done maths for a couple of games and an independent analysis is one of those preliminary steps that has to be paid for. All of this is part of the preparation and marketing that needs to be done, covering the legal and technical aspects prior to getting the game into the marketplace.

Some game designers go to various conventions (Las Vegas, London etc.) where new games can be shown and also for networking. I've attended some in the UK and can see how the costs could mount up. (I'm guessing it's much easier for those already in Las Vegas!)
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 20th, 2021 at 8:21:16 PM permalink
Hi guys, I'm getting a little overwhelmed with the direction of the conversation. Let me clear some things up. I don't have a gambling game for anyone to analyze. I was asking for some projection of what income I can expect to make going down this path. How much can I realistically sell a game to a casino for? How many installs of the game can I expect to get. I'm sure there are plenty of expenses that I need to know but the high in most concerned about is how much money I can expect to make. Is there more money in the machines? I was thinking of making a table game and then making a gaming machine out of it if the machines make more money? Btw, does anyone just decide to make a new game without learning from the pros? I'd very much appreciate any advice, thank you.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 20th, 2021 at 8:22:32 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Good luck with that. You probably need to expect to pay thousands of dollars for patents and math before you will even know if the game is going to able to get in a casino.



Why do you say that? Why would a game get that far and never make it into a casino?
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 11008
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
Thanked by
MrCasinoGamesHokusPokus
February 20th, 2021 at 8:32:11 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Good luck with that. You probably need to expect to pay thousands of dollars for patents and math before you will even know if the game is going to able to get in a casino.

Quote: HokusPokus

Why do you say that? Why would a game get that far and never make it into a casino?

Because you池e gonna need all that before a casino will even give you time of day.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 78
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
February 20th, 2021 at 8:37:12 PM permalink
So I look at game design as something that I enjoy and I was just interested in the industry since I haven't seen a whole lot of new ideas and thought the industry paid a lot with less competition.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
  • Threads: 122
  • Posts: 11096
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
Thanked by
DJTeddyBearMrCasinoGames
February 21st, 2021 at 4:47:44 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

Hi guys, I'm getting a little overwhelmed with the direction of the conversation. Let me clear some things up. I don't have a gambling game for anyone to analyze. I was asking for some projection of what income I can expect to make going down this path. How much can I realistically sell a game to a casino for? How many installs of the game can I expect to get. I'm sure there are plenty of expenses that I need to know but the high in most concerned about is how much money I can expect to make. Is there more money in the machines? I was thinking of making a table game and then making a gaming machine out of it if the machines make more money? Btw, does anyone just decide to make a new game without learning from the pros? I'd very much appreciate any advice, thank you.



Finally an easy question! The most likely answer to your 訴ncome question is ZERO. You read DJ痴 story, right?

No one can answer 蘇ow much for a game they have no idea about. Blackjack Switch made it into a bunch of casinos. There are some BJ side bets you will only find in one or two. I highly doubt any of the designers will make public their 叢er table fee to a casino. Maybe someone will give you an approximate. As far as how many 訴nstalls, I think that is something you may be able to find out in a specific location for a specific game.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 21st, 2021 at 5:31:25 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

Perhaps I will contact you to do math work. Could you do the math for me on what profit I could expect to make if it takes me 3 years to make a casino game?



Thank you for your interest, but I know as well as anybody the low chances of even good games ever making any money. So I'm afraid the answer to your question is a firm no.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 21st, 2021 at 6:41:25 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thank you for your interest, but I know as well as anybody the low chances of even good games ever making any money. So I'm afraid the answer to your question is a firm no.

I had dozens of would-be inventors approach me over the years who made a similar proposition -- I'll give you a share if you do the math and help me design the game. It's like asking an architect to wait to be paid for his blueprints until after all the units in the building are rented, only the building is being built on quicksand and has a 99% chance of sinking before the building is completed. The answer for me was always no as well.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
Mission146MrCasinoGames
February 21st, 2021 at 6:42:54 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

Why do you say that? Why would a game get that far and never make it into a casino?



Even if your game gets a trial install in a casino it is still likely to make $0. I helped a company get their electronic table game into a casino and it failed miserably. They probably had over $100,000 invested in it between design work, patents, software engineering, legal fees, etc. The game lasted for about 45 days on the casino floor before being pulled. As far as I know it never had another install.

Remember, there are a lot more slot machines in a casino than there are table games. Very few independent game developers have been successful in slot machines. I was fortunate enough to get about 300 video poker games installed in casinos but my game also failed. If you find success with a slot machine the opportunity to make money is available but very difficult. I was able to make a little money by licensing my game to a manufacturer that was willing to guarantee a minimum royalty deal.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
February 21st, 2021 at 9:34:56 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

Hi guys, I'm getting a little overwhelmed with the direction of the conversation. Let me clear some things up. I don't have a gambling game for anyone to analyze.



I would start by having a game.

Quote:

I was asking for some projection of what income I can expect to make going down this path.



Um....I guess that depends on how you look at it. If you look at it in terms of mean average, per game, that actually makes it into casinos...I guess that's not an awful number. If you look at it in terms of frequency, then you can probably expect to lose money. It's all home runs and strike outs, from what can tell, and it's usually a strikeout.

Quote:

How much can I realistically sell a game to a casino for?



Realistically? Realistically, you acting as an individual won't get your game into many casinos. You and your distributor will do that, but that's assuming the distributor believes in the game and is able to sell it...which is probably much worse than a coin flip. You might realistically expect to get a casino, or a few casinos, to field trial your game for free (and spend a lot of money getting even to that point) which is further than the majority of games even make it.

Quote:

How many installs of the game can I expect to get.



Expect? In terms of frequency, zero...closely followed by one and two.

Quote:

I'm sure there are plenty of expenses that I need to know but the high in most concerned about is how much money I can expect to make.



The most probable result is that you will lose tens of thousands of dollars and eventually give up.

Quote:

Is there more money in the machines? I was thinking of making a table game and then making a gaming machine out of it if the machines make more money? Btw, does anyone just decide to make a new game without learning from the pros? I'd very much appreciate any advice, thank you.



There's more money in the machines, sure, there are more machines in a casino, more people play them and they have a higher house edge. Is there more money in machine design? I wouldn't know. I imagine many slot machine designers just work more directly for the company, but this would be a much better question for DRich.

As far as making a table game and turning it into a physical machine in the casino...not counting bartop (and stadium) Blackjack, the only machine implementations that I know of to have any real success are Craps and Roulette...two of the most popular Table Games of all-time. I might have seen a Three-Card Poker machine, like, once. I think I've seen a handful of Baccarat machines...but I only specifically remember two of them.***

In order for a table game to translate successfully to a machine game, I guess what I'm saying is that you'd first have to have a widely-known and mega popular table game which, with all due respect, is highly unlikely.

***I also think I may have seen one Let it Ride machine game in a casino. I'm 90% confident I did, but I wouldn't swear to it in court.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
teliot
February 21st, 2021 at 9:36:29 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

I had dozens of would-be inventors approach me over the years who made a similar proposition -- I'll give you a share if you do the math and help me design the game. It's like asking an architect to wait to be paid for his blueprints until after all the units in the building are rented, only the building is being built on quicksand and has a 99% chance of sinking before the building is completed. The answer for me was always no as well.



You should work for me. They've only offered you 10% of the zero in profits they will make...I'll offer you 25% of zero.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
MrCasinoGamesMission146HokusPokus
February 21st, 2021 at 4:43:23 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


There's more money in the machines, sure, there are more machines in a casino, more people play them and they have a higher house edge. Is there more money in machine design? I wouldn't know. I imagine many slot machine designers just work more directly for the company, but this would be a much better question for DRich.



In order for a table game to translate successfully to a machine game, I guess what I'm saying is that you'd first have to have a widely-known and mega popular table game which, with all due respect, is highly unlikely.

***I also think I may have seen one Let it Ride machine game in a casino. I'm 90% confident I did, but I wouldn't swear to it in court.



An independent can definitely get a deal with a slot manufacturer if the right game is presented and protected. I was fortunate to license a game to IGT, LED Gaming licensed Multi-Strike to IGT, and Eugene Jarvis licensed Super Times Poker to IGT. Obviously Ernie Moody is the only person that I know got rich licensing to IGT but he invested hundreds of thousands of his own of dollars before IGT took Triple Play poker.

I worked on a video version of Caribbean Stud Poker in the1990's but it was pretty much a failure.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
  • Jump to: