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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear 
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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Thanks for this post from:
MrCasinoGames
February 15th, 2021 at 8:06:02 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

I'm more curious about what it takes to succeed, not the requirements since there is no point in getting a game inside a casino if it's just going to fail.

Good question. Unfortunately, that's hard to say.

While the gamblers must enjoy it, figuring out what people will enjoy is a challenge in itself. For example, I totally do not get Baccarat. In the low stakes, where the dealer does all the work, it's about as exciting as a coin flip. In the higher stakes, a player gets to handle the cards, squeezing them, as if to bluff the dealer while deciding to take another card. Hello! The rules of Baccarat already determine if the player gets another card or not. But people seem to love it.

But I digress.

You're right. It makes no sense to put a new game in a casino if it's going to fail. Unfortunately, it's really hard to get into a casino, and you won't really know if it will succeed until it's in a casino. So you're better off focusing on what's needed to get it into a casino.

Most important is the profitability. The players need to enjoy it enough to play it, while losing enough so that the game makes more money than the game it has replaced.

Next most important is simplicity. It needs to be easily described, with simple rules. If there's any difficulty in either of those areas, players won't understand it and/or dealers won't want to explain it. You might think it's their job to explain it, but if they have to slow the game down to explain stuff too often or for too long, forget it. Dealers can kill games that they don't like.

Hope this helps.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear 
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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February 15th, 2021 at 8:07:23 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

... my own Game Inventor's Corner.

Wiz -

Do you mean the Game Inventor's Corner here on WoV? This thread IS in that area, so I'm thinking you mean something else.

On that note, do you still have your website from your days as a math / game inventor consultant? Even if you're not doing that anymore, there was a lot of good info there.

I would hope that it still exists, even as a side directory on WoV or WoO.

I can't find it anywhere...
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
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February 16th, 2021 at 6:21:04 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

With the right mindset it's certainly possible to think of new games (probably it helps if you can analyse them yourself as then quicker to iron out some of the technical details and spot the dogs). The issue is whether the concept works with the public and can be marketed.

It might be easier to think of pop music songs and how some singers have success and others, many others, fall by the wayside. Even experienced record companies don't always know the hits before they happen.

Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.



You sound very smart, & it makes sense to need the ability to analyze games to be able to create new games that are good. What do you mean by if the game can be marketed, surely you can market any game? Your analogy of game design as similar to pop music actually scares me. Your telling me the industry can't tell if a game will be successful makes me assume the industry doesn't know how to analyze games effectively. If the buyer doesn't know if my game will make them money, then how am I supposed to stand out from the crowd? What do you mean by graft?
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
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February 16th, 2021 at 6:28:58 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I think the number of people who get a regular paycheck from an employer to design games is zero. Somebody might say Roger Snow, but he does a lot more than that. You have to create and market your games. Dan's book is a good place to start or my own Game Inventor's Corner.



I don't like the sound of also marketing my games. So in tabletop games often your manufacture & distributor will market your game with you, as a group effort. It's already difficult to market a game to the consumer, I don't even what to think about what marketing a game to casinos looks like. Maybe I should just quit now.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
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February 16th, 2021 at 6:32:35 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

I agree with you. Especially on tables. Every casino has the same half dozen games. Some casinos have some interesting one-off/rare games, but those games aren't placed nearly enough for someone to be employed to continually develop new ones. I really didn't expect this when I started collecting chips. Being from the Midwest - and SD /ND /IA being places with unique games - I expected more of that variety. It just isn't there.

Roger has what I think is my favorite presence on LinkedIn. I don't think I've ever seen an executive openly have that much fun at work. And I have no doubt that he relishes his position as SG's poet laureate.



Chip collecting is a cool hobby, the chips could be worthless if the casino changes to a different chip type.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
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February 16th, 2021 at 6:41:49 PM permalink
MrCasinoMan has officially scared me with the numbers. I'm assuming installs mean how many tables of your game are being played, so how many installs is the average amount? Sounds like I'd be making ALOT more money in the tabletop industry....and here I was thinking I could get rich from casino games.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
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February 16th, 2021 at 6:54:53 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Good question. Unfortunately, that's hard to say.

While the gamblers must enjoy it, figuring out what people will enjoy is a challenge in itself. For example, I totally do not get Baccarat. In the low stakes, where the dealer does all the work, it's about as exciting as a coin flip. In the higher stakes, a player gets to handle the cards, squeezing them, as if to bluff the dealer while deciding to take another card. Hello! The rules of Baccarat already determine if the player gets another card or not. But people seem to love it.

But I digress.

You're right. It makes no sense to put a new game in a casino if it's going to fail. Unfortunately, it's really hard to get into a casino, and you won't really know if it will succeed until it's in a casino. So you're better off focusing on what's needed to get it into a casino.

Most important is the profitability. The players need to enjoy it enough to play it, while losing enough so that the game makes more money than the game it has replaced.

Next most important is simplicity. It needs to be easily described, with simple rules. If there's any difficulty in either of those areas, players won't understand it and/or dealers won't want to explain it. You might think it's their job to explain it, but if they have to slow the game down to explain stuff too often or for too long, forget it. Dealers can kill games that they don't like.

Hope this helps.



A game that makes the casino more money sounds like a requirement, thank you for sharing. As for your requirement about game simplicity, most current tabletop games have done away with the simplicity approach since they often don't produce engaging game experience for players. But your saying the exact opposite is true? Your explanation makes sense but what about games like Keno or Poker? Surely a dealer can't teach ultimate texas holdem in the time it takes to play a game?
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Thanks for this post from:
MrCasinoGames
February 16th, 2021 at 8:15:09 PM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

You sound very smart, & it makes sense to need the ability to analyze games to be able to create new games that are good. What do you mean by if the game can be marketed, surely you can market any game? Your analogy of game design as similar to pop music actually scares me. Your telling me the industry can't tell if a game will be successful makes me assume the industry doesn't know how to analyze games effectively. If the buyer doesn't know if my game will make them money, then how am I supposed to stand out from the crowd? What do you mean by graft?

Thank you.


It's good to look at other industries for similarities as to what is needed to have success. Obviously one could hit the jackpot and come up with a brilliant idea that just works, a song that becomes an international hit, take a photograph that goes round the world. However realistically it is more likely to come from research, understanding what customers typically enjoy/buy.

I remember being at a cricket match once, the photographer explained the tactics the bowler was using to get the batsman out, and so he concentrated on the wicket and close fielders. Sure enough a few minutes later he got the perfect photo of the batsman being caught out, in the way he described. Yes there was some luck but it was down to planning, knowledge, an understanding of the players and the game. Of course he also needs to have the technical skills (owning the best camera/lens combination, setting the correct exposure etc.) to take the photo.

"Graft" means putting in the hours of preparation, learning the trade, getting to know the business, understanding what's already in the market.


There's a difference between the technical part (House Edge, practical implications, countability or security issues, etc.) and being able to spot a winner. The former is analytical, going through various calculations and checks - it obviously helps if you can get a feeling for these, even better if you can do the analysis yourself. The latter is a feeling that something is just right - I imagine that comes with experience.
HokusPokus
HokusPokus
Joined: Feb 6, 2021
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February 16th, 2021 at 10:14:28 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Thank you.


It's good to look at other industries for similarities as to what is needed to have success. Obviously one could hit the jackpot and come up with a brilliant idea that just works, a song that becomes an international hit, take a photograph that goes round the world. However realistically it is more likely to come from research, understanding what customers typically enjoy/buy.

I remember being at a cricket match once, the photographer explained the tactics the bowler was using to get the batsman out, and so he concentrated on the wicket and close fielders. Sure enough a few minutes later he got the perfect photo of the batsman being caught out, in the way he described. Yes there was some luck but it was down to planning, knowledge, an understanding of the players and the game. Of course he also needs to have the technical skills (owning the best camera/lens combination, setting the correct exposure etc.) to take the photo.

"Graft" means putting in the hours of preparation, learning the trade, getting to know the business, understanding what's already in the market.


There's a difference between the technical part (House Edge, practical implications, countability or security issues, etc.) and being able to spot a winner. The former is analytical, going through various calculations and checks - it obviously helps if you can get a feeling for these, even better if you can do the analysis yourself. The latter is a feeling that something is just right - I imagine that comes with experience.



You definitely know a lot, and you make me feel better knowing that someone can predict success with knowledge & experience. But that still doesn't change the issue of getting around casino's lack of ability to pick a winning game. So even if I am able to make a casino game that is better than the competition I'm still rolling the dice that a casino will ever install the game. Even if they do install the game, doesn't sound like it's a lot of money. Do slot machines also make a flat fee between $50-300 a month? This just sounds like chump change to what they make. Could I mentor under you, I think I need someone to teach me this industry.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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February 17th, 2021 at 5:12:33 AM permalink
Quote: HokusPokus

...I think I need someone to teach me this industry.

I like to consider myself a reasonable photographer, but not quite to the standard needed to win camera club competitions (there's a very strong camera club in my area). I'm broadly self-taught and used to pick up tips from talks by top photographers. I learnt some of the technical side from books etc. but mainly from doing it. I know I could learn more but want to keep it a hobby which I enjoy rather than a "profession".

If you thinking of becoming a singer I would be suggesting you consult a specialist; they may be able to train your voice (or whatever) and also give an honest opinion. If you were thinking of becoming a professional photographer then it's a tough world. You're on your own as the competition is fairly stiff and so have to learn the science and develop your own niche market. I stumbled across one, who took amazing photographs of dogs (which was what I trying to learn at the time) but because she had the ability to work well with people, this helped her take good portraits.

A successful photographer has to master their own craft, build up a reputation and then market their services. The photographers at Premier League football have worked their way up though the lower leagues.

Thus you should already have some of the skills, then develop a list of contacts and build on these through perseverance.

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