Lightning Poker - Coming Soon
A few obvious questions:
1. We are looking at providing 30 seconds of free play when the bonus is initiated. Is this too much, not enough, or just right?
2. Depending on how often the bonus will occur, what wager structure would you feel is acceptable? I've used 5 + 5, 5 + 10 wagers in the past and depending on the game, people accepted them for the most part. For this game, I'm leaning toward the old format of 5 + 1 but I have to find a good balance that will allow me to get higher multipliers in the game.
Our first version of the game will not allow retriggers within the bonus. It will just provide a bonus consisting of a multiplier and a set amount of time. The next version will get a bit crazier and allow for retriggers, expiring timers, new multipliers, etc. If you want to read more about this version of the game, I have a LinkedIn article located here: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lightning-poker-speed-based-video-timothy-nottke/
We welcome any thoughts and feedback you may have.
I think the concept is interesting, but I don't think you will find a large enough audience to make it succeed commercially.
But I could be wrong!
Quote: SOOPOOI think the concept is interesting...
Yeah, me too. It's one thing to give a player options to think about, but this twist challenges both the mental and physical skills. SP makes some good points though. Please post again when you have a demo at your site to play. I'd love to try it.
Is the lightning card wild or does it vanish to reveal the actual card dealt?
My only other concern is how often one would get the lightening card:
1/53 + 1/52 + 1/50 + 1/49 + 1/48... assuming 1 extra "lightening card" is added... = .1293 or ~1 in every 8 hands.
If you do something like 5 + 10, and go on a slightly bad streak with no lightening... then you'll hemorrhage VERY FAST. Maybe too fast for some comfort.
I do also like the idea a lot. I just think it might be difficult to implement to appease everybody.
Quote: Romes<snip>My only other concern is how often one would get the lightening card:
1/53 + 1/52 + 1/50 + 1/49 + 1/48... assuming 1 extra "lightening card" is added... = .1293 or ~1 in every 8 hands.<snip>
Romes,
I think your calculation is wrong. If the deck has 53 cards, then the odds of seeing the "lightning card" on the deal is just 5/53, or once every 10.6 deals.
As for the original concept, rather than give "time", why not give "deals"? That would put fast and slow players on an equal footing.
Hope this helps!
Dog Hand
Quote: DRichI do not like the idea of an extra card in the deck. The bonus will just happen too often. I would just set it up as a random event just like Super Times. If you are giving free hands for 30 seconds that would be about equivalent to a $12.50 bonus for a quarter 5 coin player (roughly 10 hands in 30 seconds). Assuming no multipliers you will need to collect that $12.50 in the extra promo bet. If you add multipliers and the averages is a 2x multiplier you will need to collect $25 in extra bets before the bonus triggers. With the one coin extra bet that would mean the bonus could trigger about every 100 hands.
Just to highlight, DRich knows what he's talking about.
I play at about 800hph, sometimes a little faster. So I would get to see the timer about every 7-8 minutes. That seems often enough to make it an attractive feature, especially if you can add multipliers.
Quote: beachbumbabsJust to highlight, DRich knows what he's talking about.
I play at about 800hph, sometimes a little faster. So I would get to see the timer about every 7-8 minutes. That seems often enough to make it an attractive feature, especially if you can add multipliers.
At roughly 1 in 10, I think you would see the timer every 70 seconds wouldn't you?
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13At roughly 1 in 10, I think you would see the timer every 70 seconds wouldn't you?
ZCore13
It would actually be more often than that. You get 5 cards dealt, plus you are drawing more cards in most hands. Typically you will see about 8 cards per game. 53/8=6.62
Quote: DRichIt would actually be more often than that. You get 5 cards dealt, plus you are drawing more cards in most hands. Typically you will see about 8 cards per game. 53/8=6.62
DRich,
I believe the bonus applies only when the "lightning card" appears on the deal, not on the draw.
Dog Hand
Quote: DogHandDRich,
I believe the bonus applies only when the "lightning card" appears on the deal, not on the draw.
Dog Hand
If there are 53 cards in the deck, what happens if that card comes out on the draw? I could see if the Lightning symbol was added to one of the 52 cards, but by having an extra card it is bound to show up on the draw too. Gaming regulators would not allow you to remove it after the deal. Players would be pissed if it showed up on the draw and didn't count.
Quote: SOOPOOI think you will have a VERY hard time gaining appeal to the general public. As the game inventor, you will naturally build a house edge into the game against the FASTEST players. The majority of players that KNOW they are not amongst the fastest will realize that they are at a disadvantage against an even higher house edge.
I think the concept is interesting, but I don't think you will find a large enough audience to make it succeed commercially.
But I could be wrong!
Appreciate you thoughts SOOPOO and thanks for sharing.
The game will have to be designed around the ability of the fastest players if it is a timed event. We have discussed other versions providing an allotted amount of time instead of a timer, but that may be a future build.
Quote: GialmereYeah, me too. It's one thing to give a player options to think about, but this twist challenges both the mental and physical skills. SP makes some good points though. Please post again when you have a demo at your site to play. I'd love to try it.
Is the lightning card wild or does it vanish to reveal the actual card dealt?
Gialmere,
Once we get a "more polished" version of our demo, I will post it here for everyone to check out.
The lightning card will signal the bonus on the deal of the game, and then be removed from the hand and replaced by the next card in the deck. Once the player finishes that current hand, the timer and bonus round will start on the deal of the subsequent hand.
Quote: DogHandRomes,
I think your calculation is wrong. If the deck has 53 cards, then the odds of seeing the "lightning card" on the deal is just 5/53, or once every 10.6 deals.
As for the original concept, rather than give "time", why not give "deals"? That would put fast and slow players on an equal footing.
Hope this helps!
Dog Hand
We have been playing around with the idea of a set number of free hands and that may be included in other builds once we get the timer concept in place for our current build.
Quote: DRichI do not like the idea of an extra card in the deck. The bonus will just happen too often. I would just set it up as a random event just like Super Times. If you are giving free hands for 30 seconds that would be about equivalent to a $12.50 bonus for a quarter 5 coin player (roughly 10 hands in 30 seconds). Assuming no multipliers you will need to collect that $12.50 in the extra promo bet. If you add multipliers and the averages is a 2x multiplier you will need to collect $25 in extra bets before the bonus triggers. With the one coin extra bet that would mean the bonus could trigger about every 100 hands.
We have the protection to allow the bonus to be random without using the card and we may do yet another build using that concept in the near future.
Super Times Pay is the game that comes to mind when you think about an extra card added to the deck and I like balance of how often it occurs. Do you know if STP uses a random event (love this idea because it is easier to work with!) or do they actually use a the STP card? I've always heard that the card appears about 1 out of 18 times and based on the math presented earlier it would be about 1 out of 8 or 1 out of 10 with the card.
Triggering the bonus hands once every 100 hands may not be enough to keep players interested in the game, so we may have to look closer at a higher wager.
Thanks for your reply, DRich.
Quote: beachbumbabsJust to highlight, DRich knows what he's talking about.
I play at about 800hph, sometimes a little faster. So I would get to see the timer about every 7-8 minutes. That seems often enough to make it an attractive feature, especially if you can add multipliers.
Right after I replied to DRich, I read this and started to think maybe 7-8 times per hour to see the bonus wouldn't be that bad. Our first work we did on the game allows for retriggers within the bonus and each retrigger increases the multiplier so 7-8 times may provide enough built in distance between each trigger to allow for this style of play.
Would 30 seconds for the bonus seem adequate based on how fast you play beachbumbabs?
Quote: DogHandDRich,
I believe the bonus applies only when the "lightning card" appears on the deal, not on the draw.
Dog Hand
Correct Dog Hand. The bonus is only available on the deal of the game. In the retrigger version build, it can occur at anytime during the game which makes the game crazy fun which may require us to make the event random to control the bonus.
Quote: DRichI think if I was you I would try to target a bet of 5+5. That way you could have the bonuses more often and have some multipliers too.
Thanks DRich…..I agree.
Quote: Zcore13At roughly 1 in 10, I think you would see the timer every 70 seconds wouldn't you?
ZCore13
Sorry, I was referring back to DR's suggestion of every 100 hands being a reasonable rate.
Idk how they could let it be 1 in 10, but maybe I'm not understanding RG's plan.
In the meantime, here is a link to a short video showing the bonus. We still have a number of edits to make, but at least you can see where we are headed with it.
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6503380712652177408
Quote: kgb92Why give them a timer instead of a set amount of free games?
In Nevada there has been some issues with getting games with timers approved. In this case it might be okay because it is classified as a Bonus and the player is not "paying" for the timed event. It is probably worth some research. Definitely file the IP both ways with a timer and a fixed number of hands.
Quote: DRichIn Nevada there has been some issues with getting games with timers approved. In this case it might be okay because it is classified as a Bonus and the player is not "paying" for the timed event. It is probably worth some research. Definitely file the IP both ways with a timer and a fixed number of hands.
I think you are correct DRich. We were awarded the patent because we used the timer as a bonus which seemed to clearly define the game. We have the fixed number of hands filed on a CIP of the game so we should be covered.
The more I think about it, the bonus almost has to be timed or the player could sit in the bonus for long periods of time and I'm sure the casinos wouldn't want that. In slots you can have free hands without the use of a timer because there is usually something built into the game to keep the game moving forward. In video poker you need player input to keep the game moving in the bonus.....unless you use an auto hold feature in the game which I'm sure casinos will not want either.
Interesting to think about for sure.
Quote: kgb92Why give them a timer instead of a set amount of free games?
We will look at doing it both ways, but right now we really like the timer aspect. In future builds we plan to provide different amounts of time....such as 45 secs, 1 min, 2 min, etc. Each with a different multiplier.
Put a timer on the screen. Perhaps they get a 1 time award of an extra hand for every 10 secs left over or something.
Quote: beachbumbabsI think you should combine the timer and the number of hands. Give them 2 minutes to play 10 hands. Or 30 seconds to play 3. Or whatever.
Put a timer on the screen. Perhaps they get a 1 time award of an extra hand for every 10 secs left over or something.
That would solve the issue with having the player trigger the bonus and then sitting there doing nothing for a long time. Very good thoughts, beachbumbabs.
Quote: RealizeGamingThat would solve the issue with having the player trigger the bonus and then sitting there doing nothing for a long time. Very good thoughts, beachbumbabs.
If the timer expires you win the greater of X credits or your score achieved during the bonus time. Regulators would allow that and you have the advantage of nobody winning 0 credits in the bonus round (It really turns people off to get a bonus and get blanked).
So why not bring the game into the 21st century? I'd love to play a game that triggers a bonus feature every once in a while to mix things up. A game could have several features (like a slot). Your own "Slide" and "Multidraw" ideas would both be fun bonuses (although you'd probably have to have the player pay as normal for such features over 10 games with the good pay table--vultures take note). How 'bout a multi-line feature: two games for the price of one for x turns with re-triggers? Or a simple pick a random card on the screen and it multiplies your wager by x? You're practically on an undiscovered country.
On the other hand, I fear such a direction would encourage casinos to water down the pay tables even more than they are (to be fair, depending on the bonus features, it may be justified), but what the hell; it's not like full pay machines are getting easier and easier to find. And 9/6 JoB will still be available ... somewhere.
Quote: GialmereRG, I think you're moving into interesting territory and encourage you to continue. I suspect that one of the reasons VP is slowly fading from the scene is the sheer monotony of the game to the average player. Purists will argue this point, and the game has had a few innovations over the years, but when you compare it to modern slots there's just no contest entertainment wise. Slots have animated graphics, bonus features, fun themes, TV/movie clips and music: you name it. With VP it's still mostly "beep beep beep beep beep--save save--beep beep beep" and repeat.
So why not bring the game into the 21st century? I'd love to play a game that triggers a bonus feature every once in a while to mix things up. A game could have several features (like a slot). Your own "Slide" and "Multidraw" ideas would both be fun bonuses (although you'd probably have to have the player pay as normal for such features over 10 games with the good pay table--vultures take note). How 'bout a multi-line feature: two games for the price of one for x turns with re-triggers? Or a simple pick a random card on the screen and it multiplies your wager by x? You're practically on an undiscovered country.
On the other hand, I fear such a direction would encourage casinos to water down the pay tables even more than they are (to be fair, depending on the bonus features, it may be justified), but what the hell; it's not like full pay machines are getting easier and easier to find. And 9/6 JoB will still be available ... somewhere.
Gialmere,
I couldn't agree more with your first thought. Video poker can be very boring and redundant which led me to creating my company with the goal of making it more fun and entertaining for the player. I understand in my quest to introduce new video poker games to players, there will always be a number of players who will not like them and I accept that since everyone has things they like and dislike and there is no way to make everyone happy. I also feel that if they give some of my games a chance they may change their minds or at least be more open to playing video poker in non-standard ways.
I'm still waiting for a company interested in using graphics, bonus features, fun themes, movie and TV characters etc. in a video poker game. I think the potential is there, but the only way that will happen, in my opinion, is you must have new video poker games with new ways to play and new mechanics. You can't take the current game and just change the skins....the gameplay has to be different and it will work.
You also have to change peoples thinking about the pay scale. I know we are all used to a set pay scale and we know what return to expect, but if you are paying a bit more for a potential bonus in a video poker game, I think you I would welcome looking the other way on winning 5 less coins for a full house or flush in exchange for more exciting gameplay and the potential for bigger jackpots. My thinking is definitely different and I have no intentions of upsetting traditional poker players, but in order for video poker to evolve the ways slots have players have to open to change.
You and I seem to be cut from the same cloth, Gialmere. We are looking for entertainment and excitement in our video poker games! Hopefully, we will get that soon or at least start taking steps in the right direction!
Thanks for your post!
We haven't included multipliers yet, but those will be included in later builds along with being able to retrigger the bonus once inside the bonus.
Demo Link: http://realizegamingllc.com/dev/lightningPoker/
Quote: DRichI like the concept but the math seems terrible. The game is still very buggy as the timer seems to go away before it should. The one card in the deck just comes up too often. The bonus means nothing as it happens too often.
Looks right for me
Timer setup is 30/30 and gone after 30 seconds
If player press DEAL, before timer expires he or she got an EXTRA time.
Bet and Bonus frequency must be adjustable and configurable
Create Fun Game!
I am under the impression that math is done to figure out the return using optimal play on specific paytables for specific rules for VP games. Is there a maximum number of bonus games possible and has that been determined for the 30 second bonus round?
Let's say it is 30. If someone can do 30 you make the game a 99% game. What does it become if someone only does 2?
Quote: DRichI like the concept but the math seems terrible. The game is still very buggy as the timer seems to go away before it should. The one card in the deck just comes up too often. The bonus means nothing as it happens too often.
Our next step in the game is to figure out the math now that we finished the bonus. We will also be adjusting the occurrence of the bonus card, but wanted to keep it as is for right now so players can at least experience the bonus regularly instead of having to wait 15 or so hands to see it again.
The timer will countdown to 30 seconds and then give you a chance to finish the last hand as long as the player hit the deal button to start another game in the bonus. We didn't want the game to cut off in the middle of a hand just because the timer expired.
Quote: SOOPOOAs a non VP player, this game would not be for an entry level player.
I am under the impression that math is done to figure out the return using optimal play on specific paytables for specific rules for VP games. Is there a maximum number of bonus games possible and has that been determined for the 30 second bonus round?
Let's say it is 30. If someone can do 30 you make the game a 99% game. What does it become if someone only does 2?
SOOPOO,
The math will be done shortly which will adjust the frequency of the bonus card and multipliers if we include them in this version of the game.
Based on my play, the most hands I've been able to complete in the bonus is 8 hands, while I have averaged closer to 6.
I kind of agree the game may not be for an entry level player, but even an entry level player should be able to play 2 hands within the 30 second bonus, but maybe I'm wrong. We should know more as we get our simulations started and I will post the results.
Quote: beachbumbabsWell, I definitely get an adrenaline rush off the timer! Lol. That was fun!
Finally got time to play this. BBB speaks for me as well. I'm a slow, methodical player who double checks the play before drawing. Throw that out the window. Sit up, lean forward and... DEAL! DRAW! DEAL! DRAW! DEAL! DRAW! Heh, heh ... big thrill. Bonus points for the "game show" music during the bonus round that increases the intensity.
As I said, you're moving into interesting territory.
Demo Link: http://realizegamingllc.com/dev/lightningPoker/
I'm usually able to get about 8 hands played per the 30 second bonus, but how is everyone else doing?
My guess is most people are probably right around 5 or 6?
Quote: GialmereI've gotten up to the 6-7 range and think, with practice, I can make 7-8. Obviously I'm sacrificing perfect play to do this and am just grabbing any pair or high cards I see then drawing.
Gialmere,
I think I'm getting most comfortable right around that 7-8 range, but I've also made mistakes in the bonus round, too. Another thing that helps/hurts is the cards you are dealt and you have to hold....like four to a flush or straight. It takes a bit of time to hold them as the clock ticks down which can take away that one or two extra hands per round.
It would be funny getting a Royal during the bonus round. From my play, there was no time to see if I won. I was already clicking "deal" as the draw cards were revealed. To look up, once the dust settled, and see you're somehow 4000 credits ahead (without even getting a picture of the screen) would be hilarious.
Hmm... If you're betting big, what would happen if you got a Royal? Does the bonus round freeze to call an attendant? Not that many would care if the timer expired while awaiting a hand pay.
Quote: GialmereThe math would be interesting. Are you better off playing (say) four free hands perfectly, or eight free hands just grabbing at pairs and high cards like dollars in a money booth?
It would be funny getting a Royal during the bonus round. From my play, there was no time to see if I won. I was already clicking "deal" as the draw cards were revealed. To look up, once the dust settled, and see you're somehow 4000 credits ahead (without even getting a picture of the screen) would be hilarious.
Hmm... If you're betting big, what would happen if you got a Royal? Does the bonus round freeze to call an attendant? Not that many would care if the timer expired while awaiting a hand pay.
I would think it is better to play the hand correctly, but I'm not sure. I think some players will try to get as many free hands as possible hoping to win any amount since it is not requiring them to wager. Their thinking could be, the more hands I play the more I'm gaining because I'm not actually wagering anything in the bonus.
So far, here is some math showing perfect play in the main hand and perfect play in the bonus. As you can see the more hands you see and play perfectly in the bonus, the better the RTP. This is with our current setup of having the lightning card appear approximately 1 out of 12 hands.
http://realizegamingllc.com/dev/lightningPoker/simulationData.json
Out of 1 billion simulated hand, which took 41 total hours, the Lightning Bonus card appeared in 14% of those hands. When playing the game you should expect to see the bonus about 14 times out of 100 hands which seems to be a good balance for a 5 + 5 wager.
The RTP will vary depending on how many bonus hands are played in the bonus round. Based on an average of 6 hands in the bonus round, the RTP would be:
"roundNumber": 6,
"valueWon": 9888403725,
"count": 67477542,
"balance": -111595275,
"RTP": "98.88"
Thanks again everyone!
