Cutting Edge Table Games Conference and a major announcement

We have just decided that we are going to once again put to use my kick-ass COU table I purchased from Casino Supplies and Services Inc. by entering the new table game competition at the Cutting Edge Table Games Conference November 14-16 in Vegas. We are flying out our professional dealer/trainer Wayne Jones to deal the game and will have some promotional items to give away. Anyone that is a member of this forum that is in the area please stop by and say hello.

Also, just last week my partners and I entered an agreement with Poker Games Interactive LLC for them to distribute COU worldwide in the class III Live Dealer Electronic Game Machine Market. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/poker-games-interactive-llc-announces-their-partnership-with-casino-over-under-llc-for-the-distribution-of-casino-over-under-to-the-worldwide-class-iii-and-live-dealer-electronic-game-machine-market-300516035.html

We are very excited about this as I personally feel it is the best possible forum for COU to be offered in. PGI previously entered into an agreement with LT Game for a distribution agreement in Macau, China which is where we will be targeting first. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/poker-games-interactive-llc-lt-041200881.html

I hope to see some of your nice people at the show.

Very cool.

Congrats on the PGI deal, and good luck at Cutting Edge. See you there!

Good luck at Cutting Edge Table Games Conference.

TG Conference is a good show to be at as an independent developer...you will get excellent feedback, both positive and negative from attendees who are normally the TG decision makers for their properties. You'll know by lunchtime on Tuesday how the game is being perceived in its live game format...all the best of luck!!

Congrats on the distribution deal, and good luck in the show, k!

Thank you everyone. I tell you what after looking at the agenda this does not seem like the conferences I am used to attending. I am going to be like a kid in a candy store! This is still very new to me so I have plenty to learn and I am always grateful for any feedback from the pros whether it is positive or negative. There are great subjects being covered and having the chance to offer my game on the strip at a competition like this sure seems like too much fun to be considered work. I hope to meet a few of you there. I will be sure to track you down Teddy.

From the Gaming Industry Weekly Report:

"Poker Games Interactive LLC announced a partnership with Casino Over Under LLC for the creation and worldwide distribution of Casino Over Under for the Class III and Live Dealer Electronic Game Machine market. Casino Over Under is a new live dealer table game currently available for play in Mississippi and pending in Pennsylvania. Maybe we have to see it in person as the description, a game where players are dealt three cards and place bets whether the card total will be over 23 or under 18, does not sound very exciting to us."

Quote: kobalj

Thank you everyone. I tell you what after looking at the agenda this does not seem like the conferences I am used to attending. I am going to be like a kid in a candy store!

Are you saying you never even attended a Table Game Conference before, even as a mere spectator? This will be my fourth time as an attendee. Hopefully, I'll be exhibiting in 2018.

Quote: kobalj

I hope to meet a few of you there. I will be sure to track you down Teddy.

Looking forward to it!

I've never been shy about expressing the target audience I chose to appeal to in creating this game and that is new players. As by now we all know, EGT's bring a number of benefits to the casinos that use them but in my opinion the most prominent one is giving prospective new pit players an option that is less intimidating than the standard games. I am talking about slot players or players that have never sat down at a table in their lives. They see an EGT and they know they can sit down at their own machine and try a game without having to interact with a dealer or worry about what other players think of their game play decisions. There was just a great article on this in Global Gaming Magazine. https://ggbmagazine.com/article/pit-party/

As most likely everyone in this forum knows COU was created for those same reasons.
-It is easier to learn than BJ.
-No player can make a decision that impacts another players outcome.
- The rules can be explained in under 20 seconds to where literally a five year old can understand them.
- The HA can easily be set to just about the exact HA that an operator desires. Specifically 1-7% for the base and literally anything for the bonus.
-The hands per hr rate is higher than BJ.
- Even though it is an original new game the concept of the o/u is well known worldwide.
- The ebbs and flows and pace make it very addictive.
- The app has been killing it in China with over 20,000 downloads in the last 8 months!

I don't know, I am aware that I am biased and also new to this side of the industry but those seem like pretty good reasons to support PGI's wise decision to grant us the opportunity they have. I can tell you first hand that the two gentlemen that run that company are about as sharp as I have come across in any field I have been involved with. Not to mention simple counting games like baccarat and e z baccarat seem pretty popular to me and not very exciting. I guess some people don't really put excitement as their top priority when they are considering what pit game to play when they know no matter how exciting it is the house still has an edge. Some people just want a simple game that is not intimidating that they might actually win at here and there.

Thanks for sharing that but that is nothing new. I knew that would arise from time to time long before I chose to embark on this journey. I am sure the "us" who wrote that is not among the target audience I made the game for and therefore I totally understand and agree that it is not appealing to everyone. Not many games are. At this point, the ball is already rolling and a shot in Macau w EGT's and a shot in Mount Airy are forthcoming. I am pretty sure the results will hold a lot more weight than the opinion of someone who is outside my target audience.

Does Poker Game LLC even have a product? I've never heard of them, and a quick glance at their website shows a rendering of what looks like an SG or Interblock stadium setup.

Why would this company who doesn't even have a functioning product to sell, spend loads of money on R&D to place and create a game like Over/Under which has no following and no one knows about? This is very odd to me.

Is Macau the target because they don't have licensing in the USA?

Quote: SM777

where players are dealt three cards and place bets whether the card total will be over 23 or under 18, does not sound very exciting to us."

It doesn't have to be exciting, it has to be profitable and as gamblers age that game may be of great interest. In any casino the festive atmosphere and free booze leads to half drunken passersby wandering by. Such a game might be of great interest to them also. If its a simple game that snags the curious, it will be profitable.

SM777 as you can probably already tell I thoroughly enjoy going point counter point with you or anyone for that matter on just about any subject I have an opinion on. I am quite an opinionated person too. I definitely share more details than most when it comes to my journey and I have my reasons why but when it comes to discussing other people; specifically my new partners I have very limited information I am willing to share. Clearly out of respect for them.

All that being said, I can understand and appreciate the points you made as PGI itself only just recently formed. If you really care to learn more about them it's not too tough to do. Just take a quick look at some free public information that exists on when the company formed; who they partnered with since; along with the details of their IP that they clearly openly mention on their website; and consider the length of time it takes to go from applying to actually getting such an approval while looking at the specific technological improvement they got the approval for and I bet if you did all that you would easily connect the dots on who this company is and why I am so excited about it. As far as the execs that run PGI, that information is also easily accessible online as are the incredible achievements they each have made, awards they have won and monster companies they have held prominent positions at before starting PGI. Very impressive Bios.

The bottom line is PGI and COU have come to terms on a plan that is going to get my game into ETG's. I feel confident that in less than a year you will see COU in an ETG in Macau, China and depending on how that goes hopefully after that all over this wonderful globe of ours. Ofcourse it is entirely possible that the players will not like it and if that happens that will be a tough pill to swallow but I will find a way to do so and move on to my next adventure. But I have a feeling they are going to love it. We shall see how it plays out. I am grateful and honored to even have the chance at pulling this off successfully.

I actually think that the "excitement" element is a very interesting one to contemplate. How high should it be on one's priority list of elements to nail in making a new table game? The two most successful table games on earth I believe are BJ and Baccaratt. Are they very exciting? They are both simple counting games. I think BJ can be exciting but for me it certainly doesn't come from the decisions I encounter when I play as I try and follow optimal play which really eliminates that from happening. Baccarat particularly looks a little light on the excitement element as does EZ Baccarat yet these games kick some serious ass. In fact they kick a lot more ass than just about every other game in existence which I suppose would even include the exciting pit games whatever ones those may be. I think it could be possibly bc of what FleaStiff was alluding to in pointing out how the excitement actually comes other factors such as the festive atmosphere or in my opinion even more so the ebbs and flows of the pace and momentum shifts from winning and losing and vice versa. I hate to say it but I think what makes a game exciting is how close the game takes players to the power that resides in the core of those ups and downs and the respective rush feelings that comes from gambling. That is what is exciting and addictive. That is what brings people back again and again. If I am right about that it makes things a lot harder b/c it sure is definitely a lot easier to look at an abbreviated version of how to play a game and give an opinion on how exciting you think that game is that you never actually played than having to put the time and effort into conducting a more subjective analysis in trying to figure out just how close a game takes players to that ultimate power that can only come from gambling that is incredibly exciting but on the negative also powerful enough to destroy lives. All while of course profiting a casino. It sure is a challenging feat to try and pull off.

Lastly, I think how the particular game appeals to its targeted audience, fulfills the purpose it is set out to achieve along with the importance of the particular purpose itself that the game is trying to fulfill in general are far more important than assessing of how exciting the gameplay appears just based on an objective look without ever even playing a hand. For Casino Over Under, I felt 20 years ago when it popped in my head but even more so now with the millenils in the mix that the standard games that previously existed were just too intimidating and too hard for a new player to enjoy and win some money while doing so. So I knew I needed my game to be very simple not to just learn how to play but even play optimally. I wanted something original but not foreign so I opted to base it on the popular concept of the o/u. I wanted it straight forward enough for casinos to easily manipulate the HA and definitely focused on being as least intimidating as possible. I felt if I did that then casinos would have a game for prospective new players. Are attracting new players to a casinos pit important? I think so. It looks like the ETG's installed at Sands Bethlahem, Bellagio and the Venetian have done just that and they did so bc ETG's are far less intimidating and less stressful for a new player. The players don't have to worry if they are making a bad decision like they do when they sit down at a BJ table for the first time. I think COU can do the same thing for the same exact reasons. Heck I think COU as an ETG is the ultiimate way but I am going to find out if I am right soon enough. So that is why I willingly and voluntarily lowered the excitement element on my priority list of features I wanted to nail in making my game. The simplicity has gotten the game this far and there's still a ways to go before we know just how far it will take COU.

KISS

I hate to be the downer and ive complimented plenty of games and inventors here and elsewhere, but I'm prett sure this game will have none to minimal impact in the table games market.

Unless you got paid a handsome sum, which I doubt, the distributor deal is worth nothing if it's with a distributor with no distribution network.

To be successful in today's table game market a game MUST many of the following features. Games that don't die a slow death (See Casino War and Let it Ride) or never make it past a few installs (See hundreds of games over the last 10 years).

Easy to understand and play.
A point where there is some intrigue or excitement in a reveal of the players hand and/or house hand.
A decision point where player makes a choice on how to play.
A community feel and/or feature where all players benefit from another's luck.
A fair chance to win a good size return on one or more side bets.
A house edge that is fair to the players, but high enough for the house and has enough low end payouts to keep players playing for a while.

I'd give COU 2.5 out of the 6 above.

Hopefully I'm wrong and you make it big. But I'm usually pretty solid on my reviews of game playability and success.


ZCore13

"community feel" may be over rated.
The Orientals all seem to play follow the chip leader in Baccarat but its not "us" against the house in reality. Its each player against the house.

I'll admit this Over Under seems to lack some ultimate bonus side bet but it will still draw some players.

Craps may be noted for its camaraderie and table-wide Wins/Losses but its still your own bankroll that counts no matter how many people have been either cheering or groaning with you. The bra-less girl excitingly bouncing up and down as she rolls the dice and ignorantly calls for a seven to roll is just as welcome at the craps table as an experienced and knowledgeable player.

Quote: Zcore13

Unless you got paid a handsome sum, which I doubt, the distributor deal is worth nothing if it's with a distributor with no distribution network.

This is my sentiment. A company with no presence, no product, no distribution, and the long road ahead of the cost of licensing in the USA is going to spend loads of money on R&D for a game with 1 part time placement? If you're putting out a quality product, the R&D alone is extremely costly and time consuming. That's if you already have a device this is going on. Which it seems like they're still developing.....

This is a big swing and a miss. Too early too soon for a game with no following to lock themselves up with an ETG provider with no product. Going into Macau and failing miserably probably isn't the best thing either for the long term future of building a brand.

Quote: SM777

This is a big swing and a miss. Too early too soon for a game with no following to lock themselves up with an ETG provider with no product

So the game inventor gets zilch and the firm trying to place that game via their nonexistent network gets a chance to hit a home run if Over Under is a success? Well, if the inventor can't traipse all over the world trying to push his own game he might as well rope in someone else into the process

I don't want to say Game Development is easy, but it seems the real hurdle is Game Marketing.

Casinos do not want to take risks and when they try a new game its usually some untrained dealer off in the sidelines somewhere with poor signage, poor lighting, poor traffic flow and then the "trial" brands the game a "failure" based on the comments of a disgruntled dealer who was only sent there as punishment for some transgression he made on a 'real' game somewhere in the casino.

Quote: FleaStiff

I don't want to say Game Development is easy, but it seems the real hurdle is Game Marketing.

I don't really disagree with this.

Quote: SM777

I don't really disagree with this.

To succeed a new table game almost has to be based on poker or blackjack. Or so it seems. To quote an expert in inventing table games :

" When you create a game, the most important element is the ability or even the illusion that a player can win money. In the long run, the house is going to get all the money. "

And all this hype about how Stadium Blackjack is going to attract Millennials ? Venetian has removed half the terminals and has a curtain across half the area. They could be just changing the carpet, but I doubt it. A friend peeked thru the curtain and looks like the area is being prepped for slots.

Interesting.

Sands PA recently took out a couple poker tables to make room for about 30 more stadium BJ terminals.

And that stadium BJ is only about a month old!

Well Venetian cut the poker room in half initially. I think it was a $5,000,000 renovation at the Sands. Time will tell. Looks like Gamblit Poker is already running out og gas. Replacing EGT with game displayed at Raving. Have high hopes for Stadium Blackjack, but think Gamblit is the new Poker Tek. Remember when Mike Sexton predicted Electronic Poker Tables were the wave of the future ??

Seems if you have the word " Millenials " attached to any game, it has to succeed. Sorta like when attaching " Synergy " to any merger was magic.

For what it is worth, I think Stadium set up is going to work for games that already have multi-table player demand today. It is the reason that where Stadium is working, it is with Bacc, BJ & Roulette (and I believe Sic Bo in Asia)...those games already have lots of players wanting to play and Stadium offers a lower labor cost, higher game accuracy with subsequently a lower limit requirement method of providing those high demand games to more players.

But I haven't seen a Crazy 4 Poker or Casino War Stadium set ups or a Stadium set up for UTH or 3CP. There is simply not the demand measured in volume of simultaneous players in the specialty game market for even established & very successful carnival games. I would not pin the success of my new carnival game on the ETG market. The outcome of placements from the TG Conference is going to be a bigger measuring stick for COU.

At the end of the day, marketing is THE hurdle because you have to get your game in front of decision makers that can put it on a floor. Only then will you see if players & the casino are going to like it. The next equally big hurdle is getting a game to stick on a casino floor. A big sign is seeing repeating players coming back to play again and again. Having a game stay on a casino floor past the 12 month mark is the litmus test for me...and that ain't easy cause it means being open at least 20+ hours each week, not shelved on that table in the back corner that never gets opened.

Even a great game can fail when casino management knows it all. Great game, great signage, good location in pit. But never got any traction in Colorado. 21 placements, shfl training, receptive dealers, but management insisted on $10 minimum on weekends.
Colorado had just raised $5 limit the year prior.
Expecting players to risk $20 a round, on a game where the object is to get more splits and double downs, in a basic $5 market did not make sense. I actually tall to two pit bosses and a table games manager about the higher limits. Got the standard answer, Why $10, because it's Friday. DUH !
Much rather have a $10 table with no players ? I mean I walked thru the pit at The Riviera one night in winter 2011 and all 5 BJ tables were $10 minimum. Number of dealers outnumbered the players. On a Friday night around 8 pm. I had just walked over from Isle of Capri were there was only 1 $5 bj table as advertised. And a waiting crowd of 5 or 6 people.
Yes, I did ask why the Riviera did not lower tables to $5 and advertise it on the electronic billboard on the front of the casino? If you do not know what they answered, you have not been paying attention HaHa
PS Riviera was sold to Monarch in spring of 2012

Venetian- was in there playing poker and know a few suits, they said half are moving to Palazzo to spread it out.

Quote: sixsisters

but think Gamblit is the new Poker Tek. Remember when Mike Sexton predicted Electronic Poker Tables were the wave of the future ??

Seems if you have the word " Millenials " attached to any game, it has to succeed. Sorta like when attaching " Synergy " to any merger was magic.

Agree with this but wish they'd come up with a game that's actually fun to play. Not real cool when I sat to play it at PH and couldn't start bc I didn't have somebody to play against!!!

Quote: Spinner14

. Not real cool when I sat to play it at PH and couldn't start bc I didn't have somebody to play against!!!

What about shills and proposition players?

Quote: FleaStiff

What about shills and proposition players?

Weren't any of those there when I was there. Shills would be great. They'd probably throw the game to me to make me enjoy it and come back!

Quote: Spinner14

Shills would be great. They'd probably throw the game to me to make me enjoy it and come back!

Chips are worthless too a shill, so why not give them away? In the old, old days a shill who cashed chips got a broken arm.

In the late afternoon or early evening a casino might open a Baccarat table off in a chandeliered alcove. A handsome young man in a tuxedo would sit down to play and so would a very attractive young lady who was half in and half out of an evening gown. They would smile at passersby and wave to them to come join the table. Obviously there role was to get the action going early, get players to sit down and even be jubiliant when they won and perhaps that would draw in additional passersby. Eventually the shills make a quiet departure and move on to their next assignment.

The casinos want action and often an empty table is intimidating. Long ago Caesars Forum had a strict rule that a dealer could not stand at an empty table but had to come out into the aisle or something and interact. I forget which Near Strip casino it was but any dealer at an empty table had to give a lesson upon inquiry of passersby.

Maybe shills will make a comeback?

If anyone is up for some tiles after the reception today, let me know at the show.

Quote: FleaStiff

Maybe shills will make a comeback?

I would love that job. Especially if I could wear a tuxedo and pretend to be James Bond all day.

Quote: Wizard

If anyone is up for some tiles after the reception today, let me know at the show.

I’m in. See ya soon...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I’m in. See ya soon...

Sorry, I forgot my daughter has a concert tonight. See you tomorrow.