Poker or Bust at GVR LV

Poker or Bust is a new game now on trial at Green Valley Ranch in LV. Per the G2E website website, here is the game description ( a word doc of which is available for download):

Poker or Bust

"Poker or Bust Dealing the Game and Game Rules

The game is played with 6 standard 52-card decks. This can be done with a hand shuffle and a 6-deck dealing shoe, or with a continuous shuffler.

The object of the game is to have a higher ranked 3-card poker hand than the dealer without going over a point value of 31. Aces are counted as 1 in the point count but can be played high or low in the formation of the poker hand.

The game begins by the player placing 2 equal wagers; 1 in the Ante wagering circle and 1 in the Odds circle. Both wagers are mandatory to participate in the hand.
The dealer will now deliver 2 cards to the players and 2 to themselves in the same fashion used in an open face Blackjack game. The dealer has 1 card up and 1 card un-exposed (down). Both player’s cards are face up.

The dealer will deliver a third card to the player closest to the dealer’s left without asking the player. This is done as it takes 3 cards to form a 3-card poker hand and the player can never bust on 3 cards.

At this point, the player my take additional cards or stand on their initial 3 cards. The player may take as many cards as they desire and stop at any time. If the players point total goes over 31, they have a busted hand and both their wagers are taken down and lost.

The dealer will continue this process until all players have had a chance to act on their hand.

After all players have acted, the dealer will expose their down card and deliver 1 additional card to their hand. If the total of the dealer’s 3 cards is 22 or less, the dealer must take additional cards until their hand value exceeds 22. If their hand value totals 23-31, they must stand and take no additional cards.

If while hitting the hand to reach the 23 plus threshold, the dealers hand value goes over 31, they bust and all remaining players are paid even money on their Ante wagers. Their Odds wagers are played against the Odds paytable, win/push or lose.

If both the player and dealer have hands that have not gone over 31, the dealer will compare the hands to see who has the larger 3 card poker hand. Straights carry a higher value than a flush as they do in any 3 -card poker ranking. The only difference in POB is that the opportunity to have suited trips can present itself. Suited trips are higher in value then all other hands except for royal flushes.

If the player wins the 3 - card poker hand, the player is paid even money on their Ante wager and the Odds wager stands alone against the Odds paytable.

If the dealer has the better 3 - card poker hand, the player loses the Ante wager and their Odds wager plays against the Odds paytable.

If the dealer and player push, the player’s Ante wager is returned to them and the Odds wager playas against the Odds paytable.

This is an exciting new format of play for table games; Easy to learn and easy to deal.

Poker hands are ranked as follows:
Royal (A, K, Q same suit)
Suited Trips
Straight Flush
Three of a Kind
Straight
Flush
Pair
High Card"

Thoughts?

First thought; hey! Brent owns 31. What's this? Lol...

2nd thought; strange game name, doesn't really catch, and as I read the game description, doesn't really describe the game, either. However, no.suggestion for changing it, so leaving it be.

A lot would depend on the Odds bet paytable. I don't think they can pay the high card 1:1, or even all pairs, and have a house edge. The dealer won't bust very often with a 9 point stand spread, but the player can just play same as the dealer and have about the same shot. I would guess the HE is lower on the Ante bet than in blackjack.

I don't see how making the Odds bet mandatory makes up for that. There would have to be paytable pushes and losses on a simple/lower win, especially as you don't have to beat the dealer to get paid on the Odds. You would also have to lose your Odds bet up to the paytable push, if there is one, but the description doesn't make that clear.

I think the game would be fun, and I would definitely try it. There may be some confusion transitioning from a point count to a poker evaluation for some players.

Quote: beachbumbabs

First thought; hey! Brent owns 31. What's this? Lol...

I cringe every time I see people use "31" when it has nothing to do with the game 31. This is the fourth attempt at doing that that I have seen to date. One group actually reached out to me for help on how to get a game placed, without telling me anything about the game, which I supplied. When I finally forced the game details out of them, it was a non 31, 31 game that literally had 31 dead center of the table. Talk about discrete disrespect!

Quote:

A lot would depend on the Odds bet paytable. I don't think they can pay the high card 1:1, or even all pairs, and have a house edge.

Odds Pay table:

Royal 10 to 1
suited trips 5 to 1
straight flush 3 to 1
non suited trips 2 to 1
straight 3 to 2
flush 1 to 1
Jacks or better push
10s or less lose

Quote:

There may be some confusion transitioning from a point count to a poker evaluation for some players.

I think a large amount of confusion to be honest, but time will tell.

I live about 3 minutes from GVR. I will try to get over there this weekend to give it a try.

Quote: DRich

I live about 3 minutes from GVR. I will try to get over there this weekend to give it a try.

Please do and let us know what you think.

I would like to know the house edge on the ante and on the odds bet.It seems like it could be a fun game to play,and easy to learn.

Quote: mrsuit31

I cringe every time I see people use "31" when it has nothing to do with the game 31.

There is this quote off the G2E Listing:

A great new concept where the dealer deals the game like blackjack but the point total has no value in the outcome. The player my take cards just like in blackjack but can't go over 31 without busting.

OK, and then you make your best 3 Card Poker hand using your non-busted 31 point hand cards...to me there are two disjointed concepts (31 & 3CP Poker) going here to create a new game...I doubt Pai Gow Dan would assign the term "elegant" to the effort. But the bigger question is what need does the game fill or what problem does it fix...pure novelty is generally not enough.

This doesn't sound very fun at all. Maybe I'm missing something.....

It kinda makes sense, but doesn't seem all that easy to play & follow. Basically it's TCP but you can get extra cards (but still only play your best 3?), and you or dealer might bust. But from what it seems like, dealer won't be busting too often, given he has to have a 22 and then draw a T.

Paytable doesn't pay enough to give it that type of attraction where you can win big. 10:1 on a 3 card RF? Come on.

Quote: Paradigm

to me there are two disjointed concepts (NOT REALLY 31, 31 & 3CP Poker) going here to create a new game

I corrected your post...

Quote: SM777

This doesn't sound very fun at all. Maybe I'm missing something.....

Sadly, I don't think you're missing anything... I also honestly don't understand the dealing procedure of dealing the first two cards to each player and dealer like blackjack, then just dealing a third card. What's the purpose of the up card, to warn you about potential high card or pairs the dealer can get? If your worried about that during the hand, your hand is garbage anyways.

Quote: RS

Paytable doesn't pay enough to give it that type of attraction where you can win big. 10:1 on a 3 card RF? Come on.

Agreed.

All of this said, it's at a great property in LV.

I also had the WTF moment about the 31 concept, until I looked to see who posted the initial post. LOL

I was also of the opinion that there's nothing all that great or compelling about this.

But then I realized what the 'hook' was - something basic but wasn't mentioned yet: You often get to create a three card hand having more than three cards to choose from.
That's huge. Or at least can be perceived as being huge.

It also makes me wonder if the correct strategy is to stand on a total of 23 or not. And it may be composition dependent.

If both the dealer and player have not busted, it seems like comparing the three card hands is basically a coin flip. If so, where's the edge? Why not make it dependent on the 31 total, and ties go to the dealer. Or lose half on ties (Keeps those old $2.50 pink BJ chips in circulation!)

I also think the 3 card paytable is weak. While I realize having more than 3 cards to compose the hand changes things, there are also some hands that bust. Maybe if I saw the edge and hit rates I'd have a different opinion, but I'd never have that at the table.

Bottom line: I'm just not sure about this game. But if it's still at GVR in November, I'll try to remember to check it out.

Who's game is this?

By any chance the same creator of Poker With a Joker that is at GVR?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I also had the WTF moment about the 31 concept, until I looked to see who posted the initial post. LOL

I was also of the opinion that there's nothing all that great or compelling about this.

But then I realized what the 'hook' was - something basic but wasn't mentioned yet: You often get to create a three card hand having more than three cards to choose from.
That's huge. Or at least can be perceived as being huge.

It also makes me wonder if the correct strategy is to stand on a total of 23 or not. And it may be composition dependent.

If both the dealer and player have not busted, it seems like comparing the three card hands is basically a coin flip. If so, where's the edge? Why not make it dependent on the 31 total, and ties go to the dealer. Or lose half on ties (Keeps those old $2.50 pink BJ chips in circulation!)

I also think the 3 card paytable is weak. While I realize having more than 3 cards to compose the hand changes things, there are also some hands that bust. Maybe if I saw the edge and hit rates I'd have a different opinion, but I'd never have that at the table.

Bottom line: I'm just not sure about this game. But if it's still at GVR in November, I'll try to remember to check it out.

I think it's countable. As you say, composition dependent.

The HE has to come from that Odds paytable. Even if you win the hand head to head, you must have a pair of Jacks or better to not lose the Odds bet. And the Odds bet is MANDATORY. This is significantly different from every game I know of. And losing that bet in many cases has got to figure in optimal strategy.

For example, if you have 23, but no straight, flush, or high pair, you will lose the Odds regardless of dealer bust or loss. You can take a hit of 8/13 of the deck without busting. So, if you have a straight, flush, with one more card, I think you have to take the hit. If you already can win the Odds bet, I think you stand, as even if you lose the Ante, your Odds win will at least represent a push. If you have a single high card, you might have to stand, because if you pair it, you would bust and lose both bets. (I'm assuming a bust negates the Odds paytable as well).

Quote: SM777

Who's game is this?

By any chance the same creator of Poker With a Joker that is at GVR?

Monarch Gaming

Company Managers

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I also had the WTF moment about the 31 concept, until I looked to see who posted the initial post. LOL

Again, the confusion alone kills me with these non "31" games. I honestly think it hurts the recognition of my actual 31 games.

Quote: mrsuit31

Quote: SM777

Who's game is this?

By any chance the same creator of Poker With a Joker that is at GVR?

Monarch Gaming

Seriously?
Who is Monarch Gaming, and which question is that supposed to answer???

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: mrsuit31

Monarch Gaming

Seriously?
Who is Monarch Gaming, and which question is that supposed to answer???

It answered tho "who's game is this?" question. Click the link. They are listed as the developer. That said, INAG is showing the game at G2E, so perhaps they picked it up after the trial launched at GVR.

Then the second link shows the company Managers. I don't know who the poker with the joker guy is, but if you or anyone does, you can see if its the same person. So the post answered both questions (at least kind of answering the second question).

This was my favorite game at G2E 2015. I spent at least an hour playing it. The high frequency of dealer busts made it seem like the game was at an off the top player advantage (even though it wasn't).

There was only one link when I saw your post about this. I'm not sure how the second link or your post clears anything up.

Are you part of Monarch Gaming?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

There was only one link when I saw your post about this. I'm not sure how the second link or your post clears anything up.

Are you part of Monarch Gaming?

I'm really not sure why your confused.

SM777 asked who's game it is... The answer is Monarch gaming as provided by the link to the approval letter that says the game is Monarch Gaming's.

His second question was is this the guy who developed poker with a joker. The second link was showing who the managers of Monarch gaming are. If he knew who developed poker with a joker, he would know if that is one of the two managers of Monarch gaming listed.

Damm, got excited and miss read the heading
I thought poker bust at the GVR. I thought maybe a poker cheater getting busted
instead
I see its a new game
yawn

Brent, this is one time when imitation is NOT the sincerest form of flattery.

I think this game looks like a blast to play. Not sure why people aren't getting it.

Dealer only has 3 cards from which to make a 3-card poker hand about 30% of the time. Usually the dealer has 4 cards, and sometimes 5 or 6 cards from which to make a 3-card poker hand. Same goes for player.

Player does not have to play the "Hit 22, Stand on 23" strategy. Consider this hand: 5-5-5-7. That's trip 5s, but adds up to 22. Dealer is required to hit it with a chance of drawing a 10 and going Bust. Player can choose to Stand -a higher EV action.

Now consider this hand: 6d6c5d5cAh. That's a 23 -dealer has to stand on this and it plays as a pair of 6s. Player can hit it with multiple ways to improve to a straight (any 7 or 4), a flush (any club or diamond), trips (any 6 or 5), a straight flush (7 or 4 of clubs or diamonds) or a pair of Aces (any ACE.). I mean, WOW!

Remember that with a 6 deck-shoe the odds of getting pairs and trips are much higher than in 3 Card Poker. Plus you are usually playing a hand that is 4 cards or longer to make a 3-card flush.

And in addition, you have a dealer upcard to play against. An Ace is a formidable upcard -you may wish to hit a 23 or 24 to try to improve your hand. A King is a weak upcard (I think) -you probably want to play conservatively if you make a 22 or 23.

This game has so much going for it. It makes 3-Card Poker look as boring as eating styrofoam.

Quote: TheoHuxtable

This was my favorite game at G2E 2015. I spent at least an hour playing it. The high frequency of dealer busts made it seem like the game was at an off the top player advantage (even though it wasn't).

How did the mandatory odds bet loses, that babs described, feel during play? (Understanding it wasnt real money so the feel will be different in live play)

Here is a breakdown of how many cards the dealer will have in his hand, and how often the dealer busts:

Dealer Hand Size	Probability
Bust	1 / 22.7881867414819
3 cards	31.20 %
4 cards	38.64 %
5 cards	18.64 %
6 cards	1 / 17.63
7 cards	1 / 81.24
8 cards	1 / 491.12
9 cards	1 / 3742.09
10 cards	1 / 35,321.7
11 cards	1 / 412,600
12 cards	1 / 6,017,761
13 cards	1 / 111,169,864
14 cards	1 / 2,649,683,832
15 cards	1 / 83,450,687,933
16 cards	1 / 3.6 trillion
17-23 cards	1 / 218 trillion

Wait, let's be clear...3 Card Poker is as boring as eating styrofoam...regardless of what you think of this game :-).

I just don't think the concept of busting by going over some random BJ based point total, in this case 31, while trying to make a 3 card poker hand is going to be embraced. But the game is live, so time will certainly give us the answer.

How many times are you going to end up Jack/9/6 offsuit? I am sure you are going to run the numbers and will tell us in short order :-). I just wonder how often you are going to get the hands that are interesting like the ones you mention versus end up with a non-paired mess of a three card hand that has a 50%+ chance of busting, let alone the slim chance of adding a card that will make a difference if you don't bust on the next draw card. With the J/9/6 you hit and get a 5 for 30, great score based on 31...oh wait, my 3CP hand is still J/9/6...even if you hit gin with another 6, my guess is a pair of 6's ain't that great in this game...but you got 31?!?

It will all be in the math, so I am not above changing my mind if the feel of the game is apparent from the math (things like hit rate, number of times with 3,4 & 5 card hands, optimal play bust rate, etc)...it is just a really strange combination of game rules in my opinion. I think there are some interesting games that can replace/spice up the "long in the tooth" 3CP space...I just don't think this is one of them.

I also don't think the optimal play matrix is going to be that intuitive...but again, that will be dependent on what is presented in the math analysis...maybe I have it all wrong here, it certainly wouldn't be the first time for that!

Quote: terapined

Damm, got excited and miss read the heading
I thought poker bust at the GVR. I thought maybe a poker cheater getting busted
instead
I see its a new game
yawn

I know bummer, right? I mean a Vegas/Gambling thread instead of a Trump 100 Day post...such a disappointment...run along now, nothing to see here.

Quote: Paradigm

How many times are you going to end up Jack/9/6 offsuit? I am sure you are going to run the numbers and will tell us in short order :-). I just wonder how often you are going to get the hands that are interesting like the ones you mention versus end up with a non-paired mess of a three card hand that has a 50%+ chance of busting, let alone the slim chance of adding a card that will make a difference if you don't bust on the next draw card. With the J/9/6 you hit and get a 5 for 30, great score based on 31...oh wait, my 3CP hand is still J/9/6...even if you hit gin with another 6, my guess is a pair of 6's ain't that great in this game...but you got 31?!?

My guess is that you would certainly not hit that with a rainbow, and perhaps not even with a Two-Flush. You would certainly not hit it if you had a Flush. Without the Two-Flush, literally no card can help you except the six. This also isn't really based on anything but a pure guess, but I would imagine that a Pair of 6's is a decent hand in this game.

Quote:

It will all be in the math, so I am not above changing my mind if the feel of the game is apparent from the math (things like hit rate, number of times with 3,4 & 5 card hands, optimal play bust rate, etc)...it is just a really strange combination of game rules in my opinion. I think there are some interesting games that can replace/spice up the "long in the tooth" 3CP space...I just don't think this is one of them.

I think the best thing you could do is combine LiR and 3CP into one table. That would be easy. The player starts with three cards in both games, so the dealer would flip over one card at a time and adjudicate any LiR bets after five cards, then the dealer would flip his/her sixth card and adjudicate the 3CP bets. You could even continue to have the Three-Card Bonus bet (as both games already often do) as well as the Six-Card Bonus.

Quote:

I also don't think the optimal play matrix is going to be that intuitive...but again, that will be dependent on what is presented in the math analysis...maybe I have it all wrong here, it certainly wouldn't be the first time for that!

Certainly a tough game, I imagine.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Here is a breakdown of how many cards the dealer will have in his hand, and how often the dealer busts:

Dealer Hand Size	Probability
Bust	1 / 22.7881867414819
3 cards	31.20 %
4 cards	38.64 %
5 cards	18.64 %
6 cards	1 / 17.63
7 cards	1 / 81.24
8 cards	1 / 491.12
9 cards	1 / 3742.09
10 cards	1 / 35,321.7
11 cards	1 / 412,600
12 cards	1 / 6,017,761
13 cards	1 / 111,169,864
14 cards	1 / 2,649,683,832
15 cards	1 / 83,450,687,933
16 cards	1 / 3.6 trillion
17-23 cards	1 / 218 trillion

Thanks, TDG. But either I don't understand your table, or it's got some kind of error. I don't think a 3 card hand can bust at all. Aces = 1, the rest bj scoring.

The dealer can hit on a hand total of 22 and bust, only way for the dealer to bust. The table doesn't mean a three card bust, just a bust in general.

Quote: mrsuit31

Monarch Gaming

Company Managers

Thank you.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Here is a breakdown of how many cards the dealer will have in his hand, and how often the dealer busts:

(table removed)

Thanks, TDG. But either I don't understand your table, or it's got some kind of error. I don't think a 3 card hand can bust at all. Aces = 1, the rest bj scoring.

The columns for 3, 4, ..., 23 cards are the probabilities for the dealer getting that many cards without busting. The "bust" number is the overall probability of the dealer getting a 32.

I think in this game that the player strategy is driven strongly by the Bonus bet payout table - and only weakly by the probability of winning or losing the Ante Bet.

Any hand that has 2 suited cards and/or a draw to a straight (that has not yet made a pair of 10s or higher) is going to be hitting lots of hand higher than a 22.

deleted post -I made an error.

How do I post without replying? Anyways, I'm having less fun with this game of late so here's a decent basic strategy. A draw system quickly becomes complicated in practice if not just for counting flush outs (based on hand total...could go into more detail why), but below is pretty solid. There are clear exceptional exceptions as 774422 (26 total) with even zero flushes is a clear hit. A basic element is you nearly always stand on flush or higher 22+.

I have 1.01% edge on ante with exceptions and 1.67% edge without. And if you're an android (wish I were), I found you can beat this game with 0.6% player edge on ante (contrary to what those G2E shysters will tell you). I think there's a reason INAG won't release the math report. I hear they're gonna change the paytable though.

Have a look so we can save this game (evil laugh):

"Reply" just means posting (replying) to a particular thread without quoting a paricular post in it. Reply is the only way to do that. Best short word to use on a button.