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NewToCraps
NewToCraps
Joined: Jun 16, 2013
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July 15th, 2017 at 10:10:04 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146


1.) I can understand why having the bet still working after a Seven-Out might be a PITA for the dealers, but then again, couldn't you just have a different box for the bets completely away from the main layout? You could have it be like the Fire Bet where the player's chip gets slid to a circle marked with the player's designated, 'Number,' until resolved. Since the bet resolves on a new point established no matter what, no bets would get in the way of one another. You could just put a number near the box where the bets go indicating what point number the bet is, 'On.'

The reason why I suggest that is because, without the feature of the bet staying up, this just comes off as a really bizarre sort of Proposition Bet that, while not exactly a one roll prop (two rolls matter and we don't know how long they'll take) kind of resolves similarly to a one roll prop.

-On this, I think the main problem was designating how much of the bet is or is not active after a seven-out. It doesn't matter, it's completely irrelevant whether or not the current hand is a seven-out. All you are doing is betting on whether or not the next point will be the same as the current point. It just seems like not paying attention to, "The bet is reduced," sort of verbiage makes it easier to understand. The bet pays the same no matter what. I don't understand the point of all of this, 'Proportional,' verbiage.

-How would you explain the OP version to a player? Simple: "You are betting the next point number will be the same as the point that is on."

With that said, I offer this:

3.) With the way that it works in the OP, this functions even closer to the way a one roll Proposition bet would function. Except, it could take more than one roll. I guess one thing that I don't understand is why you couldn't call it something like, 'Pick Your Point,' and make it a bet that can be made on any number before the CO roll, or anytime as essentially a Hop Bet, for that matter. I get that it's not a Hop Bet in the strictest sense, but it does resolve 66% of the time.

Offering it before the CO roll actually makes the most sense to me, because if you do that, players may place a bet on multiple numbers, if they like, and it also doesn't interfere with a seven-out clearing the layout if you do it that way.

I could definitely understand the $5 on the version of the bet highlighted in the OP, the hit rate is much higher. 12.5%-20.83% depending on the number. That would still be a low hit rate for a base game, but reasonable enough for a $5 side bet.

WHAT I WOULD DO

My opinion and $0.50 would get you a cup of coffee ten years ago, now maybe half a cup at a gas station, but here's what I would do...and I don't even know that it would make this something I would play:

A.) Keep the version in the OP, keep the $5 minimum (especially since the pays are wonky without it) and make it so that the bet takes place BEFORE the CO (or anytime) and can be made on multiple numbers if the player likes. If it's before the CO only, then it will never interfere with the sweep on a seven-out.



EXCELLENT COMMENTS , SO ... HERE IS THE SHORT EXPLANATION (less confusing) of the OP version
The bet is NOT taken down on a seven-out

I disagree with making it available on a CO roll and or on any place number. Tracking which bet is in the second phase of a previous point being made vs a new bet placed on a CO of a new shooter after a seven-out becomes a problem. Also, I think it would be too confusing for the dealer to have BOB bets on various numbers at the same time.


BACK ON BET sm
(Not taken down on a seven-out version)
A CRAPS SIDE BET
A Back On Betsm is
a bet that after a point number is made,
the next point will be established with the same number.
Put another way - You are betting the next point number will be the same as the point that is on.

  • After the point is established,
    you can make a Back On Betsm wager on the current point number.
    • If the point is made, your Back On Betsm remains active.
      (NOTE: IT IS NOT TAKEN DOWN AND STAYS ACTIVE EVEN ON A SEVEN-OUT ROLL.)
    • If the next established point number is the same as the previous point number,
      your Back On Betsm WINS !!
      • If the next established point number is different than the previous point number,
        your bet loses.

    1. A Back On Betsm can only be initiated on the current point number
      after the point is established, but
      only before the point is made or before a seven-out is rolled.
    2. An existing bet can be increased
      only before the point is made or before a seven-out is rolled.
    3. Once established it:
        cannot be taken down,
        cannot be turned off and
        cannot be reduced.
    4. Wager increments are five dollars.

    When the Point is established as a 4

    A $5 wager is made on a Back On Betsm
    • With a roll of 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 - the bet is unresolved.
    • With a roll of 4, the point is made - the bet is unresolved and stays active.
    • The same shooter continues to roll, and at this point
      • With a roll of 2, 3, 7, 11 or 12 - the bet is unresolved.
      • With a roll of 5, 6, 8, 9 or 10, a new point is established - the bet is resolved as a loss.
      • With a roll of 4, the same point is reestablished - The bet is resolved as a WIN
      OR
    • With a roll of 7, it is a seven out - the bet is unresolved and stays active.
    • The next shooter starts their roll, and at this point
      • With a roll of 2, 3, 7, 11 or 12 - the bet is unresolved.
      • With a roll of 5, 6, 8, 9 or 10, a new point is established - the bet is resolved as a loss.
      • With a roll of 4, the same point is reestablished - The bet is resolved as a WIN
      If you win either way, your $5 wager pays $38 !
      .

    . Wager Payout . . Payout Ratio . . House Edge .
    Point 4 or 10
    $38 for $5
    7.6 for 1
    5.00 %
    Point 5 or 9
    $29 for $5
    5.8 for 1
    3.33 %
    Point 6 or 8
    $23 for $5
    4.6 for 1
    4.170 %
    Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D
    mustangsally
    mustangsally
    Joined: Mar 29, 2011
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    July 15th, 2017 at 11:20:30 AM permalink
    Quote: NewToCraps

    If you win either way, your $5 wager pays $38 !

    .

    but they keep your $5 so you net $33
    $38 for $5
    *****
    just like BJ at 3 to 2
    same as
    5 for 2
    they give you $5 but keep your $2


    I like the OP idea
    not losing on a 7out.
    the layout 4 me is messy
    maybe that needs to be done like the Fire Bet or Bonus Craps

    If you play this in WinCraps for example
    the hit rate is about ok too.
    I can see players loading up when the point is 6 & 8

    Sally
    used the beginning of Zumma Dice rolls
    Last edited by: mustangsally on Jul 15, 2017
    I Heart Vi Hart
    Mission146
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    Mission146
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    BlueEagle
    July 15th, 2017 at 2:12:20 PM permalink
    I like the new explanation better!

    I would just say that I don't understand why someone can't bet on the previous point to repeat if the result is a Point Made or a Seven-Out, seems like a perfect time to pimp the bet. "$5 gets you $33 if the next point is a four, again," that sort of thing. Maybe, "$5 gets you $33 if he rolls another four!" I could see people who aren't on it making the bet especially if the previous point was made, and it really doesn't affect anything procedural or change the probability at all.
    Vultures can't be choosers.
    BlueEagle
    BlueEagle
    Joined: Jun 7, 2015
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    July 15th, 2017 at 3:05:31 PM permalink
    Quote: NewToCraps


    I disagree with making it available on a CO roll and or on any place number. Tracking which bet is in the second phase of a previous point being made vs a new bet placed on a CO of a new shooter after a seven-out becomes a problem. Also, I think it would be too confusing for the dealer to have BOB bets on various numbers at the same time.


    Again, I believe you are over-complicating this. There is no "second phase". Any time after a point is established, the player may wager the Back On Bet that the next established point will be the same point. When the next point is established (regardless if it was after a seven out or not), the bet is resolved. All bets made between points being established are live and resolve when the next point is established.

    I imagine this side bet would be bet most often when the first established point is 6 or 8, even if it wasn't offering the lowest house edge.

    My next concern is simplicity for the players. We on this forum may understand the payout ratio, but mere recreational players and probably most dealers would be confused by the decimal point and will question why it's not rounded up to 8-, 6-, 5-for-1. Obviously that would reduce the HE and make it less desirable for the house.

    Basically, the only difference I see between BOB and a Place bet on the same number is the payout and house edge.
    charliepatrick
    charliepatrick
    Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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    July 15th, 2017 at 3:37:57 PM permalink
    The simplest is for the payouts to be
    Point 4 - pays 6 to 1 (or 7 for 1)
    Point 5 - pays 4 to 1 (or 5 for 1)
    Point 6 - pays 3 to 1 (of 4 for 1)
    Yes the House Edges are horrible (12.5,16.66%), but it's simple.
    An alternative is to payout different values for different ways to make the point (exercise for the reader as gets house edge down to 4.16% or 8.33%).

    fwiw I still prefer the idea of having to make then re-establish the point. Given the rare chance of winning the dealer's won't mind a non-integer payout.
    Mission146
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    Mission146
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    July 15th, 2017 at 7:17:44 PM permalink
    I don't see a problem with decimal paybacks, not if you're betting $5 at a time minimum on it, anyway. If you look at a Place Bet, a six/eight is 1.1667 to one, a five/nine is 1.4 to 1, four/ten depends on whether it is a Place, Buy, Commission Always, or Commission Win Only, but still a decimal. The only thing that matters is the bet relative to the minimum unit, which is $5, that's a whole number.

    Bet $5, get paid $38 which is a $33 profit on the 4/10, for instance.
    Vultures can't be choosers.
    DJTeddyBear
    DJTeddyBear
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    July 16th, 2017 at 8:38:09 AM permalink
    After re-reading the description, and realizing that the bet is essentially a push if the CO roll is 2,3,7,11,12, I retract my previous comment about merely making a hop bet instead.

    However, I agree with the other comments that the bet is too complicated. Since you're allowing people to place or increase the bet at any time, including during a CO roll, you might as well only allow people to bet it on a CO roll.

    Once you do that, it becomes a self-serve bet. I.E. The dealer should not be required to move the bet anywhere. Just place the bet on the line between the pass and don't pass. If the CO roll is 2,3,7,11,12, the dealer should be able to pay/take the line bets while ignoring the BOB bet that's straddling the line.

    Bonus: No special layout required.

    As far as 'marking' the point to indicate which is the desired number for the BOB bet, when the dealer turns the puck over to the OFF side, leave it on the number rather than moving it to the DC box.

    *MAYBE* design a new puck that says BOB/OFF on the black side...
    Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
    NewToCraps
    NewToCraps
    Joined: Jun 16, 2013
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    July 16th, 2017 at 10:22:28 AM permalink
    Quote: DJTeddyBear

    Bonus: No special layout required.

    As far as 'marking' the point to indicate which is the desired number for the BOB bet, when the dealer turns the puck over to the OFF side, leave it on the number rather than moving it to the DC box.

    *MAYBE* design a new puck that says BOB/OFF on the black side...

    I like those ideas / thoughts .... hmmmm
    Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D
    mustangsally
    mustangsally
    Joined: Mar 29, 2011
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    July 16th, 2017 at 10:57:21 AM permalink
    Quote: Mission146

    I don't see a problem with decimal paybacks, not if you're betting $5 at a time minimum on it, anyway.

    excellent idea!
    many bet $5 on the pass,come,place bets and $1 on hardways.

    players should be able to bet $1 and pay a higher house edge because of it.
    payout gets rounded down
    just like when they make $3 place bets...

    very easy to keep throwing $1 on the bet than $5
    but both should work

    I was playing with the bet in Wincraps
    and times it just does not hit,
    but then it does and sometimes 2 or 3 times in a row on the 6, for example

    point 6
    7out
    damn

    new shooter
    point 6 ...winner!
    next roll a 6 winner!!
    bet it again.
    next cor point a 6!
    Yahoo!
    (actually happened in the Zumma dice rolls. 6 3 times then 9 3 times. wow!)
    I Heart Vi Hart
    NewToCraps
    NewToCraps
    Joined: Jun 16, 2013
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    July 16th, 2017 at 11:09:03 AM permalink
    Quote: charliepatrick

    The simplest is for the payouts to be
    Point 4 - pays 6 to 1 (or 7 for 1)
    Point 5 - pays 4 to 1 (or 5 for 1)
    Point 6 - pays 3 to 1 (of 4 for 1)
    Yes the House Edges are horrible (12.5,16.66%), but it's simple.
    An alternative is to payout different values for different ways to make the point (exercise for the reader as gets house edge down to 4.16% or 8.33%).

    fwiw I still prefer the idea of having to make then re-establish the point. Given the rare chance of winning the dealer's won't mind a non-integer payout.

    When I was looking at what payouts to use, I liked payouts of $35, $25 and $20 because it is easier to payout (not having to pay with $1 chips), but I thought the HE was too high for people to want to play it as often (most players may not even know the different HE outside of this forum ?) so that is what I based the payouts on. At 12.50, 16.67 and 16.67 - the casinos might see it as in line with prop bets and expect to get those HE figures.

    It could be as high as $39, $29 and $23 for HE of 2.50, 3.33 and 4.17, but casinos might think that is too low HE for this type of bet.
    Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D

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