New Table Game Idea

Well I am not one to turn away a lead if it is suggested to me in this realm, but I wanted to invite this community to help provide any kind of advice or feedback on a table game invention I have a provisional patent on. I am about six months into the process and have done plenty of research, though more research is always beneficial. I am to the point of considering a full patent, quoting math lab reports, etc. This is definitely a critical point from a financial standpoint as well, so I have tried talking to investors and companies about gauging their interest.

I have talked with several casinos in person in different regions of the country, but this market is difficult to penetrate as we all know. Feedback has been generally positive, but as expected, no casino has jumped at the opportunity to field test. It is a game played with regular cards, and I would gladly provide some of the spreadsheets I have related to the game to anyone interested. In addition, I know members here have had success with introducing games to casinos, so any recommendations for taking the next step would be appreciated as well.

I like the forum though, very interesting topics being discussed here!

I sent this poster here. Thanks in advance for any help you offer

You couldn't pick a better place for feedback. Let me know the details.

Quote: Wizard

You couldn't pick a better place for feedback. Let me know the details.

Agreed. Post some information about the game rules etc. and I'm sure you will get a large amount of feedback from myself and others.

Welcome to the forum. Like the Wizard said, you have come to the right place.

A quick word of advice:

The participants of this forum will be brutally honest with their opinions. So try to take it in stride and don't get personally offended, they really are just trying to help. If the greater consensus is that you will be wasting your time and money, perhaps you need to suck it up and agree. But I hope your game and your ideas will be looked upon positively, and (with some hard effort and some good luck) your game will be patented, marketed and played.

MathExtreamist and PaiGowDan will prove most helpful to you, and can point you to a lot of documentation on the difficult task you are about to embark upon. You are lucky to have found this site at this stage in your journey.

Do you have an interactive computer simulation for your game? Check out the game simulators on this site in games.

GOOD LUCK!!!

PaiGowDan wrote a book on this subject. You do well to read it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1935396722/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479530520&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=casino+game+design&dpPl=1&dpID=51R24LrgeEL&ref=plSrch

Sorry guys, it’s been some time since I have been able to log back in to check on this and respond. Been a busy couple weeks (i.e. moving my residence to a new time zone). The game table would lay out like most card games, with players receiving individual hands that will play against the global dealer hand.
To begin, each individual player will place a bet on the table to receive their first card face up. Once all betting players have received a card, the dealer deals a card to himself face up. Each player’s card will be evaluated against the dealer’s, according to value (Ace high, ties favor the player). If the player card value is higher, the player has the “advantage”. Otherwise, the dealer has the “advantage”.
If the player has the advantage, the player will move their bet to the corresponding color they expect their second and final card to be. The table layout includes betting areas in front of each player for Heart and Diamond (red) and also Club and Spade (black). The dealer then deals the individual their second card, and pays one to one if the player was correct.
If the dealer has the advantage, the player will move their bet to the corresponding suit they expect their second and final card to be. If the player is correct in their prediction, the dealer pays 3 to 2.
I am planning to include a bonus bet on the side which would payout similarly to 3-card poker, using the two player cards and one dealer card. Also, to make the game more dynamic, there would be an automatic win that would occur if the player’s second card is an Ace (with an increased payout if the player’s bet is on the correct suit of the received Ace).
The Ace payouts and even “advantage” payouts can be altered a bit, as well as ties favoring the player/dealer, to modify the house advantage. Currently, it would sit anywhere between 1-6%. I hope this provides a solid foundation of the game, and I can send spreadsheets over to those who would want to see more detail. I imagine this could be done through private messages or email if desired. Bring on the criticism! haha

Hi, and welcome back.

I'm seeing 2 major problems ,and one minor one for this game.

The major problem with the game is that it has a high player advantage, if I understand you correctly. Your guess, ranking either higher or lower than the dealer, in the color of your 2nd card, is roughly 50/50. The chance of you being either higher or lower than the dealer is also roughly 50/50

But 1/2 the time, you will get paid 3:2 if you win. So, a 4 box plot of equal probability shows lose 1, lose 1, win 1, win 1.5 . How does the house make its money?

The second issue is in protecting your game. Players can never be allowed to touch money that's already bet, especially not to move it. People can change their bets up or down as they see the cards already in play, all kinds of things can go wrong.

The minor thing is in describing a bet that resolves 1:1 as a player advantage, and the bet resolving 1.5:1 as a dealer advantage. The player has an advantage in the possibility of winning 1.5 . I get what you meant, but I think it's awkward at best.

I am going to try to paraphrase the game rules as I understand them, so correct me if I am wrong.

The actual bet is the player guessing if their second card is going to be a red suit or a black suit, sort of red or black betting on a roulette wheel without the zeros.

The only difference the player's first card and the dealer's card make is whether the player is 'disadvantaged' or 'advantaged'. Winning while 'disadvantaged' pays 3 : 2 and winning while 'advantaged' pays 1 : 1.

If my understanding of the game is correct, I don't see a house advantage. Please explain what I am missing.

It is refreshing to see new game ideas that aren't variations of poker or blackjack. I applaud your creativity.

... and welcome to the world of casino game design.

^ As I understand initially the dealer gets one card and the player gets one card. In the second phase each player will receive a second card.

The first part is similar to Casino War - if you win or tie then you have to pick the colour of your second card to win - if you lose then you have to pick the suit of your second card to win.

Depending on the result of the first part
(i) After win/tie War - the player is guessing the Colour of their second card - wins Evens if correct
(ii) After losing War - the player is guessing the Suit of their second card - wins 6/4 if correct.

The player should have an advantage in (i) as they can see other cards dealt in that round. However the player is at a disadvantage in (ii) as the odds payable for a correct Suit guess is lower that true odds.


Just wondering how many decks there would be - if it's an infinite deck then knowledge of cards already dealt make no difference, so the house edge comes when you have to pick the suit (P=6/13) and only being paid 6/4 for being correct. At the other end with one deck you clearly have information from the dealt cards to other players/dealer to help - thus you're better off playing at a full table. Playing with multiple decks has the problem of players being able to track suits and possibly gain an advantage - simulations would find whether this is a problem. Interestingly, unless it's 50-50, every player should pick the same colour, similarly for suits.

Personally it would be nice to remove the 1/2 payout but I'm guessing you need that for a house edge.

Quote: charliepatrick

The first part is similar to Casino War - if you win or tie then you have to pick the colour of your second card to win - if you lose then you have to pick the suit of your second card to win.

Depending on the result of the first part
(i) After win/tie War - the player is guessing the Colour of their second card - wins Evens if correct
(ii) After losing War - the player is guessing the Suit of their second card - wins 6/4 if correct.

The player should have an advantage in (i) as they can see other cards dealt in that round. However the player is at a disadvantage in (ii) as the odds payable for a correct Suit guess is lower that true odds.

Ahh yes, thank you for the clarification Charliepatrick. I missed the subtle difference between 'suit color' and 'suit'. The game is even more interesting now that I see the difference and see the house advantage.

Thank you again for the clarification.

It would be best for the casino to employ a multiple deck shoe to prevent card tracking, and even Ace tracking particularly. Other paytables I have experimented with would include paying an even 2:1 when at a "disadvantage", and all I would have to do is decrease the Ace payout.

Quote: charlestfuller

...the Ace payout.

Could you clarify the rules on the "Ace payout" - I didn't realise there was a bonus or auto win for getting an Ace. If there is then, unless you're using one deck, it is worth checking whether the game is exploitable when there are a surplus of Aces to come.

Boy, I read it 3 times trying to see what I missed, but could not get my brain to see "suit" instead of "color" on a dealer advantage hand. Thanks, charliepatrick.

Re: game protection . Now that i see the player/dealer advantage distinction, i think it's even more important they not touch the initial bet. It would be too easy to put more chips in your stack when moving to a color, and remove one or more when moving to a suit.

You would benefit, I think, from a lammer used to designate the player's choice of suit or color as appropriate. The bet circle should be closer to the dealer than the choice area so that the player never has to reach over their bet. Something similar to what Switch uses on freebet, perhaps, or the envy button on Paigow poker.

I have thought about the issue with players touching their chips, and it would be feasible to allow the player to signal the desired change and have the dealer move the chips for the player. The dealer could then confirm the change with the player before dealing the third card. I have also considered just having the player place the initial bet on a suit before receiving the first card. In this way, the player could stick with his original betting circle or choose to double down and move to a different circle. This would make the verification and decision easier to read and confirm.

Regarding the Ace payout, the player would receive an even 1:1 payout for receiving an Ace when their bet is on the incorrect suit. If they receive an Ace and their bet circle matches the suit of the Ace, payout would be 3:1. Keep in mind, this results in the player winning with a second card Ace even if they did not predict the correct color or suit.

There are several different payout configurations I have played, from paying a straight 1:1 when the dealer has the "advantage" and allowing a slightly higher Ace payout. Of course this would encourage Ace tracking further though.