True-Odds Parlayed Hardways(SM)
Poll
 | 11 votes (47.82%) | ||
| | 5 votes (21.73%) | ||
| | 2 votes (8.69%) | ||
| | 5 votes (21.73%) |
23 members have voted
Quote: allinriverkingA small disc labeled “TRUE” is placed on top of any parlayed Hardway Bet
I hate lammers; there are too many as it is. However, the bet sounds tempting to try, is truly novel, and isn't time-consuming to book or settle. It may evolve into a "Buy-Hardways" bet, with either EV = -4.76% = -9/189 = -1/21 (CIB) or EV = -0.529% = -1/189 (CWO). The incentive to the casino would be the $21/bet price tag; to the player, an HE much lower than the standard Place Hardways figure.
Quote: NowTheSerpentI hate lammers; there are too many as it is. However, the bet sounds tempting to try, is truly novel, and isn't time-consuming to book or settle. It may evolve into a "Buy-Hardways" bet, with either EV = -4.76% = -9/189 = -1/21 (CIB) or EV = -0.529% = -1/189 (CWO). The incentive to the casino would be the $21/bet price tag; to the player, an HE much lower than the standard Place Hardways figure.
That's sounds interesting, but I'm taking juice out of existing house edge in the first time being bet. The true lammer, same use as a buy lammer basically..
Quote: vegas702this is the internet after all so that's to be expected. people will often vote without fully understanding the issues . so I'd take any poll with a grain of salt.
Another member just voted they rather get paid less for their hardway bet.. I just chalk it to comical now.. It's like saying pay me 6 to 5 instead of 3 to 2 in BJ.. Makes no sense at all.
Quote: allinriverkingAnother member just voted they rather get paid less for their hardway bet.. I just chalk it to comical now.. It's like saying pay me 6 to 5 instead of 3 to 2 in BJ.. Makes no sense at all.
Maybe people don't want to parlay and just like to play regular hardway bets.
I rarely play the hardways... this bet is too fiddly and won't entice me to play them any more.
Quote: allinriverkingAnother member just voted they rather get paid less for their hardway bet.. I just chalk it to comical now.. It's like saying pay me 6 to 5 instead of 3 to 2 in BJ.. Makes no sense at all.
But both numbers in 6/5 are bigger than 3/2, so it is a better game.
Quote: wudgedMaybe people don't want to parlay and just like to play regular hardway bets.
You don't have to parlay. A true parlay is the max a player can press their winning bet to receive the true odds payout. Any amount over a true parlay is treated as a normal hardway... This stops the house from not taking in as much on the hardways. It's like limiting the number of true odds you can take on a pass/come bet..
Quote: BuzzardBut both numbers in 6/5 are bigger than 3/2, so it is a better game.
I actually had a player telling people that before..
* hit hardway, get paid as regular
* bet hardway(up to amount of a true parlay), bonus triggered
* hit hardway, get paid true-odds payout
* bet hardway converts back to regular hardway(except any amount that was bet over a true parlay, that amount of bet the bonus is triggered)
Quote: allinriverkingYou don't have to parlay. A true parlay is the max a player can press their winning bet to receive the true odds payout. Any amount over a true parlay is treated as a normal hardway... This stops the house from not taking in as much on the hardways. It's like limiting the number of true odds you can take on a pass/come bet..
Well, at least its not confusing.[sarc]
First bet you make on the rail and is free. After that bet wins, you take the winnings from the rail and go to the hardway.
First hit is free, second hit is 2.78% edge per roll or 9.09% on the 6/8 and 11.11% on the 4/10.
The key to lowering your edge per resolution is to make the first bet with yourself.
My way:
1->11->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge
Your bet:
1->10->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge
My bet: already available in the casino
Your bet: not
Both bets: require parlay to work
This goes back to the point of being able to create bets that are not on the felt. My way only works if you take the first bet with yourself. Most people don't understand how to do this.
It does save you money compared to having the house book your first bet. But all of this assume that you know you're going to lose and just want to save money.
Most people think in terms of "house money" and will never understand.
Quote: petroglyphWell, at least its not confusing.
it's not confusing, no more confusing than changing come bet amounts. The true odds bet can only be made when you are being paid for already hitting hardway..
*player bets $1 hard 6, dealer places their bet in proper location
*hard 6 hits
*player wins $9, if player is going to press they must do so now to receive true odds on next win
*player presses $11, dealer places $10 in proper location and places the "TRUE" lammer on top of that bet, dealer places remaining $2 on top of the "TRUE" lammer
*hard 6 hits
*player wins $100 and $18(cut out separate)
*player leaves bet alone
*dealer swaps the $2 bet with the $10 bet
*hard 6 hits
*player wins $20 and $90(cut out separate)
Anything bet below "TRUE" lammer when hardway hits moves to above "TRUE" lammer for next roll, anything bet above "TRUE" lammer when hardway hits moves to below "TRUE" lammer for next roll.
Quote: AhighYou can already improve on the hardway parlay bet on a craps felt if you know you always parlay.
First bet you make on the rail and is free. After that bet wins, you take the winnings from the rail and go to the hardway.
First hit is free, second hit is 2.78% edge per roll or 9.09% on the 6/8 and 11.11% on the 4/10.
The key to lowering your edge per resolution is to make the first bet with yourself.
My way:
1->11->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge
Your bet:
1->10->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge
My bet: already available in the casino
Your bet: not
Both bets: require parlay to work
This goes back to the point of being able to create bets that are not on the felt. My way only works if you take the first bet with yourself. Most people don't understand how to do this.
It does save you money compared to having the house book your first bet. But all of this assume that you know you're going to lose and just want to save money.
Most people think in terms of "house money" and will never understand.
your numbers don't make sense
heheQuote: allinriverkingyour numbers don't make sense
neither does his words, in my opinion as his opinion is just that
another Ahigh opinion!
but what does one expect from a non-craps expert that says a $6 place 8
and a $6 place 6 is only one bet
he also says the WORD *house advantage* is one word
I think he likes things in ones, Is (eyes) mean one
maybe his post is more readable an easier to understand like so (added a shuffle for entertainment)
has a nice rhythm to itQuote: Ahigh
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as to the OP bet, again I still do not get it.
what is the big deal if one bet pays 9 to 1 or 10 to 1.
it does nothing to increase the chances of winning.
Now make a bet that does that and in my opinion I think more would play them
Sally
Quote: mustangsally
as to the OP bet, again I still do not get it.
what is the big deal if one bet pays 9 to 1 or 10 to 1.
it does nothing to increase the chances of winning.
Now make a bet that does that and in my opinion I think more would play them
Sally
If you increased the chance of winning then the payout would most likely go down. I guess compare it to, if the house didn't pay true-odds on the odds for a pass/come bet, then someone comes out and says we are going to give you true-odds on the odds now. To die hard craps players that is the only way to play is using max odds to reduce overall house edge. That's what my bets do for the hardways, it gives players a chance to take true-odds on a hardway, but only after the hardway has hit so that the house earns something for the free odds on the hardway for the next hit..
yes I agree theQuote: allinriverkingIf you increased the chance of winning then the payout would most likely go down.
Teeter Totter effect
that is your opinion and thank you for sharingQuote: allinriverkingTo die hard craps players that is the only way to play is using max odds to reduce overall house edge.
I really disagree with this.
I have been told by experienced craps players (die hard craps players) and Dealers too(I am neither)
that the only way to win at craps is pass with odds, place bets - that is where you win your money - and hardway bets.
the only way
no die hard craps players even cares about house edge in my opinion
and many craps dealers and boxman opinions too. I have asked.
increasing ones win rate is the answer to more fun and winning playing craps
just tossing out more opinions
I get what you say buts again,Quote: allinriverkingThat's what my bets do for the hardways,
it gives players a chance to take true-odds on a hardway, but only after the hardway has hit so that the house earns something for the free odds on the hardway for the next hit..
I see no real difference in 9 to 1 against 10 to 1 for a bet that only wins about 10% of the time
and
I know you have seen many times when a shooter throws the dice and they (or one die) hits a few hardways bets and they scatter.
do you have some protection so this does not happen?
especially on a full table
Sally
Quote: allinriverkingYou don't have to parlay
Quote: allinriverking*player wins $9, if player is going to press they must do so now to receive true odds on next win
And exactly how does this not require a parlay?
Also, you really think hiding lammers between stacks of chips is not going to be confusing?
Quote: mustangsally
no die hard craps players even cares about house edge in my opinion
and many craps dealers and boxman opinions too. I have asked.
increasing ones win rate is the answer to more fun and winning playing craps
just tossing out more opinions
I get what you say buts again,
I see no real difference in 9 to 1 against 10 to 1 for a bet that only wins about 10% of the time
If you hit the same amount of hardways, my way or traditional, it could make the difference of win or loss, lessen a loss or greater a win. You will never look back and say I wish I was playing the traditional hardways, because your take will be the same or greater with my way; never lesser.
Quote: mustangsally
and I know you have seen many times when a shooter throws the dice and they (or one die) hits a few hardways bets and they scatter.
do you have some protection so this does not happen?
especially on a full tableSally
more than likely only the traditional hardways will be knocked around because they are on top of the "TRUE" lammer. Boxperson will have to give speech about not going thru the hardways as giving already.. It can always be fixed, at worse give to players advantage because the house still won't have a negative hold regardless which way they pay..
Quote: wudgedAnd exactly how does this not require a parlay?
Also, you really think hiding lammers between stacks of chips is not going to be confusing?
parlay is choice, player can leave the original bet there after hitting at regular payout, and be entitled to true-odds payout if hardway hits again.
Most people aren't going to bet more than a true parlay anyway, although they have that option... I would say prob 20% will or less..
Quote: allinriverkingparlay is choice, player can leave the original bet there after hitting at regular payout, and be entitled to true-odds payout if hardway hits again.
Most people aren't going to bet more than a true parlay anyway, although they have that option... I would say prob 20% will or less..
Well, that is just adding to the confusion. I thought the parlay was required in order to get a true odds payout.
Quote: wudgedWell, that is just adding to the confusion. I thought the parlay was required in order to get a true odds payout.
when you're paid your regular hardway money, if you press your bet at payout time, and u press a lil or full parlay, that bet will receive true-odds if it hits.. If u don't press that original bet, the original bet also qualifies for true-odds. The true parlay amount is the max you can press to get true-odds, it's a limiter. I clarified my 4th post on page 1... sorry for confusion
Quote: allinriverkingGet paid true-odds on your winning Hardway Bet, if you parlayed all or part of the regular winning payout that Hardway Bet won.
that is where I got confused. It does not mention that the original bet with no pressure is also eligible.
Quote: wudgedThe OP says
that is where I got confused. It does not mention that the original bet with no pressure is also eligible.
my 4th post on page 1 I tried to clarify that before people really started polling..
EDIT: Get paid true-odds on your winning Hardway Bet, if your Hardway Bet hits a second time. Maximum amount that may be bet to win true-odds payout is limited to an amount equal to a true parlay. EDIT:
Quote: BuzzardDamn troublemakers ! How dare they vote against without explaining why. The nerve of some people !
I wish I read my first post better before releasing it, sorry people.. It's easy when you know how something works, and you accidentally leave a part out as you are explaining..
do not most hardway players after a win do one of two things with their winning hardway.Quote: wudgedthat is where I got confused. It does not mention that the original bet with no pressure is also eligible.
leave it be to win again or increase it to win again
I hardly have ever seen a winning hardway taken down (not that I pay attention to those bets as I never bet them)
after a win (I have seen it moved to another hardway)
so now the casino pays true odds after a win and the bet does not have to be increased.
I still do not get why?
and you can easily explain this to players on the fly during the game and cause no confusion?
I am now really confused about this bet.
why again does the casino want this bet?
Sally
Quote: mustangsallywhy again does the casino want this bet?
The edge on the original wager is still present. The goal is to increase action on the hardways bets for people who typically seldom bet them or not at all.
If the bet can't be easily explained to a forum of gambling enthusiasts, it's never going to fly in the casino.
Quote: mustangsally
and you can easily explain this to players on the fly during the game and cause no confusion?
I am now really confused about this bet.
why again does the casino want this bet?
Sally
I agree and that was my initial thought, even though people MIGHT understand the bet after explanation but any one unfamiliar with the bet is going to say "what" and it would slow the game down...something most casinos dont want.
1.It forces the casino to say "we'll make your odds better on the next bet since you're "free riding" and it makes them admit to the high edge on the initial bet.
2.Paying out the hard ways would take longer and slow down the game... you could never have too many break in dealers.
In pricipal I like the idea and would do it since I do play hard ways I just dont think you will get casinos too interested. In all sincerity best of luck to you on this endeavor.
Have you spoken to the bosses at Grand Victoria... they are fairly independent and maybe more willing to try a new prop bet.
To any dice enthusiasts they deal a good game with 100x odds and have a great 4k cash for craps for the shooter (all unique points have to be made) and fire bets if you like to bet on shooters. You do however pay the vig when placing buy bets.
I hear this too and I think it is the public perceptionQuote: allinriverkingI've been told by numerous dice players that wont play hardways, because they consider them sucker bets.
as well as the Field and the odds bet I hear so often being sucker bets too.
the odds bet
I always ask about and the reason given (almost always) is it does nothing to make the bet win more often.
I think Alan Mendelson
http://www.alanbestbuys.com/
comes to mind on this for pass line odds and he has played craps longer than I have been alive, so he should know and tells others these things too.
The don't pass odds players (many) refuse to lay odds because it actually lowers their combined edge that they enjoy.
I hear this a lot too at real craps tables (not the i kind)
that is how public perception spreads.
like the common cold.
with your new betQuote: allinriverkingThey think the house edge is too high. You can reduce house edge dramatically by making a true parlay..
and the casino will make more money from players trying to make more bets
and have better payouts so the casino can pay you each month to offer your bets.
this really sounds fishy (not to mention the aroma)
Ok
on to other interests
I got it now
Thank you
Sally
Quote: allinriverkingyour numbers don't make sense
So you don't understand that I can already get the same house edge for a parlay hardway if I make the first leg of the parlay acting as the banker myself, then?
The average cost for what I am suggesting is exactly equal to the bet you invented. The only difference is that I have to be able to afford to be the banker on the first bet myself in order to make that have zero cost.
Quote: AhighThe key to lowering your edge per resolution is to make the first bet with yourself.
My way:
1->11->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge.
Your bet:
1->10->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge.
My bet: already available in the casino.
Your bet: not.
Both bets: require parlay to work.
This goes back to the point of being able to create bets that are not on the felt. My way only works if you take the first bet with yourself. Most people don't understand how to do this.
How do you bet that first $1 "with yourself" and turn it into $11 using only what's now available?
Quote: NowTheSerpentHow do you bet that first $1 "with yourself" and turn it into $11 using only what's now available?
If you (a) accept that you're going to lose in the long run and (b) book your own bets for the first leg of the parlay, you simply place chips in special positions on the rail and you bank your own action.
So I would suggest you put four chips next to each other if you want to play all the hardways. As soon as one of them hits, you take ten more dollars and throw in an $11 for a hard 6/8 or 8 more dollars to make $9 for the 4/10 when it hits and have the house book the next leg.
It's just that simple. You won't win or lose any money (in the long run) on the bets that you act as the banker for compared to 2.78% edge loss per roll if you have the house book that leg. The bets only go to the felt once the first hit is made.
You act as both the player and casino/banker for the first hits. If you always parlay, and you accept that you will not win on these in the long run (the most difficult part for some hardway betters to accept), you will realize that you are saving 2.78% of $4, $3, $2, or $1 action in the case when you would normally have those chips on the hardway bets and instead just have them on the rail.
IE: if the ONLY purpose of the initial dollar is to fund a parlay, why not bank those bets yourself to save the money? In every single case that the hardway parlay strategy would win, you will win MORE money with this technique. You can lose more using the technique compared to booking the first leg of the parlay on the felt. But not in the long run, only in the short run.
Quote: AhighIf you (a) accept that you're going to lose in the long run and (b) book your own bets for the first leg of the parlay, you simply place chips in special positions on the rail and you bank your own action.
So I would suggest you put four chips next to each other if you want to play all the hardways. As soon as one of them hits, you take ten more dollars and throw in an $11 for a hard 6/8 or 8 more dollars to make $9 for the 4/10 when it hits and have the house book the next leg.
It's just that simple. You won't win or lose any money (in the long run) on the bets that you act as the banker for compared to 2.78% edge loss per roll if you have the house book that leg. The bets only go to the felt once the first hit is made.
You act as both the player and casino/banker for the first hits. If you always parlay, and you accept that you will not win on these in the long run (the most difficult part for some hardway betters to accept), you will realize that you are saving 2.78% of $4, $3, $2, or $1 action in the case when you would normally have those chips on the hardway bets and instead just have them on the rail.
IE: if the ONLY purpose of the initial dollar is to fund a parlay, why not bank those bets yourself to save the money? In every single case that the hardway parlay strategy would win, you will win MORE money with this technique. You can lose more using the technique compared to booking the first leg of the parlay on the felt. But not in the long run, only in the short run.
And when you book the first leg yourself, you save a lot when they come easy
Quote: wudgedThe edge on the original wager is still present. The goal is to increase action on the hardways bets for people who typically seldom bet them or not at all.
If the bet can't be easily explained to a forum of gambling enthusiasts, it's never going to fly in the casino.
Explanation on live game:
Bet a hardway - win as normal when it hits the first time, leave it play or press it up, up to a true parlay, and win true-odds if the hardway hits a second time. After a hardway wins true-odds, the bet starts over as a regular hardway.
1) 2 to 4 out of 10 people that don't play hardways say they will play these hardways (depends on which poll)
2) Players that normally move their hardway to another one after being paid or more apt to leave that bet knowing they are going to receive more money if it hits. If they still want the other hardway they will get it out of their bankroll.
3) It's something different to offer players, that benefits the player. This may make players bring their action to a place that at least attempts to give something to their players.
It wont help the casino that much. People usually have x amount of money to gamble with. If people are already betting the hardways bets why mess with them? If you encourage non hardways bettors to bet this because it has a lower HA. that will just take away from other bets they might make. Offering new games or bets wont magically add money to peoples pockets when they first come.Quote: allinriverkingI've been told by numerous dice players that wont play hardways, because they consider them sucker bets. They think the house edge is too high. You can reduce house edge dramatically by making a true parlay.. As well as stop players from moving a winning hardway to another, if they want that other hardway they may choose to make it out of their rail money instead of moving hardways around.
Quote: AxelWolfIt wont help the casino that much. People usually have x amount of money to gamble with. If people are already betting the hardways bets why mess with them? If you encourage non hardways bettors to bet this because it has a lower HA. that will just take away from other bets they might make. Offering new games or bets wont magically add money to peoples pockets when they first come.
You're right everyone only plays a set amount they bring with them to the casino, there are defintely no atm's at casinos either, and there is no reason to invent any new bets or games because people only want to play what they are familiar with.... (sarc)
Quote: AxelWolfIt wont help the casino that much. People usually have x amount of money to gamble with. If people are already betting the hardways bets why mess with them? If you encourage non hardways bettors to bet this because it has a lower HA. that will just take away from other bets they might make. Offering new games or bets wont magically add money to peoples pockets when they first come.
And right it will take money away from the bets they are placing that has no house edge or lower edge to begin with...
For further information see : We will boycott 6/5 BJ in 2004 and how successful that was below.
http://www.vegaschatter.com/story/2014/3/26/12532/9166/vegas-travel/Venetian+And+Palazzo+Make+The+Move+To+6%3A5+Blackjack
