New Game—Craps: Football Variation

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June 26th, 2014 at 7:26:46 AM permalink

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GWAE

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June 26th, 2014 at 8:47:09 AM permalink

way to complicated for me to play.

I assume this is done on a new table and not just an add on to craps?

If that is true I don't think a casino would ever replace one of their craps tables with this. It takes to long to resolve a bet and there is no more action during the roll other than the first bets.
If this is an add on to craps, it would slow the game down to much since there is already a lot going on.

Just my opinions.

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vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:00:49 AM permalink

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beachbumbabs

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:09:09 AM permalink

oh, man. new laptop. cuss, spit, scream, I had 10 paragraphs of minutia. gone. hate touchpads. hate touchpads. can't find a way to turn this one on and off. hate HP. hate HP. no smiley.

Answer some quick questions please.

1. Do you expect this game to co-exist with regular craps going at the same time (can't work)? Or are you using the felt and ignoring most of the layout?
2. After your first TD+EP, does it reset to a kickoff, or back to downs?
3. If a player loses during a kickoff, do the dice pass, or does the shooter just re-bet and continue shooting?

More to come.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

GWAE

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:25:14 AM permalink

Quote: vegas702
It takes no longer to resolve than a Pass Line bet in traditional craps since the Scrimmage Line bet is a variation on the Don't. After the first bets the player can make any bet that you can make on traditional craps such as: the Field, Place bets, prop bets, etc. I just didn't include them in my video or game rules because theres nothing unique about them and my exlplanation was getting too long anyway.

The main bet is the Scrimmage Line bet. The Super Bet would be comparable to the Fire Bet with the big payoff, and the First Down Bet is just a (required) side bet.

Thank you very much for you input, much appreciated! =)

so this is a new game or a side bet on a craps game? You need to make that clear in your OP if you want to get correct answers.

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vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:31:03 AM permalink

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vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:31:50 AM permalink

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GWAE

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:35:49 AM permalink

Quote: vegas702
It's a new game, I put it in the thread title and the 2nd line of OP =)

You did, but at no time did you say the normal craps bets were part of it. If you are advertising a "New Game" then you need to show ALL of the rules. Not just the rules that are changing since it is a new game.

Since it is a new game, let me ask you this.

Why would a casino remove a huge money making game like craps for a variation of the same game?

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vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:40:13 AM permalink

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GWAE

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:43:46 AM permalink

Quote: vegas702
You're totally right. I apologize & should have at least stated that the regular non-patentable bets are also available..

sorry to bust your balls but I want to make sure you get the right feedback that you are looking for. I will re watch the video later and see if that changes my opinion.

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Nareed

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:51:01 AM permalink

Without having seen the video, it strikes me this would be marketed as an electronic game. A bubble craps machine, for example, could offer it along with regular craps, as different players could play different games with the same dice.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

MrCasinoGames

MrCasinoGames

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:51:30 AM permalink

Hi Vegas702,

Below is a Football-like Dice Table Game.

3 Dice Football.

Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:51:45 AM permalink

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vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 9:59:53 AM permalink

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beachbumbabs

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June 26th, 2014 at 10:33:47 AM permalink

Touch pad disabled. One piece at a time.

Here is a sequence of rolls.

7. PL win. You = no pay, move to downs. Odds available @ 5:6.
7. PL win. You = no pay, move to EP. Odds pay here?
7. PL win. You = 7:5. or odds pay here?

Deadly. You're not paying comeout 7's? However. Another sequence:

6. PL point. You = no pay, move to downs. Odds available @5:6
7. PL lose. NEW shooter. You = no pay, move to freeroll SAME SHOOTER. Correct?
7. No action? PL Win? Extra roll that means nothing except to EP odds pay? Pay any 7?

More to come.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 10:46:14 AM permalink

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beachbumbabs

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June 26th, 2014 at 11:06:40 AM permalink

I didn't mean for that to be 6 rolls, but that's really good information for the next part of the discussion.

What I was contrasting was that, 3 7's in normal craps comeout is 3 paid wins.

In FB craps, it's 2 non-pays and then either 1:1 5/6ths of the time and 7:5 1/6th of the time.

On the next 3 rolls, I was asking about dice retention if you're mixing both games at the same table, and what status the EP roll has for bets outside your 4 bet game. On roll 2 regular craps, the PSO, the felt would be cleared and the dice would pass. On your game, the SL and SB bet is in limbo and I don't know who's shooting or what's happened to the "normal" bets, because you have mixed the game, and the shooter's not out.

So, more lost questions; the EP roll is a freeroll. If the EP roll is NOT a 7 on either the first or second EP, does that make the SB lose? Your rules (and it may just be language) seemed contradictory here. The EP's must convert in order to count towards the SB pay?

Some of what I lost in my initial post was telling you I'm a craps newbie, so please let me include that info now, and assume total ignorance on my part; I'll take one for the team and then those that know more will still get basic clarifications from you. Thanks.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 11:19:16 AM permalink

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beachbumbabs

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June 26th, 2014 at 11:57:04 AM permalink

Ok, so in reality, since the EP roll can't lose, and the SB roll only depends on 2 or more TD's, the simplified answer of when you win the SB is how many TD's a single shooter can roll before a TO. 2 or more TD's triggers that payscale, and the EP happens, but it's irrelevant. Good to know. Possibly worth taking the EP consideration out of the SB formula when you post it, since it's irrelevant; all the current notation indicates is WHEN you're going to pay the money, not WHY. Thought; what does it do to that 12-13%HE if you DO pay the SB bet 7:5 when the EP IS a 7? Does it make it +EV, or just bring it down in a nice low -EV range? Then the EP WOULD matter to it.

So, you mentioned above that other standard craps bets can be active during your game, but you're specifically replacing 4 bets, probably because of the shooter change. Are those standard bets on or off during an EP roll? Can a place bet win, for example? Are they on or off during a subsequent kickoff? Not sure if your language covered it, but during a subsequent kickoff, same shooter, can they change between the 6 and 8 with each kickoff resulting in downs?

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 12:43:49 PM permalink

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Buzzard

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June 26th, 2014 at 2:34:15 PM permalink

Quote: vegas702
I never even thought about that. That's something I definitely should consider.

Thx for your input! =)

Quote: MrCasinoGames
Hi Vegas702,

Below is a Football-like Dice Table Game.

3 Dice Football.

Hello =)

I did come across that game while I was working on mine. After looking at its rules, I found that they're completely different from my game and doesn't resemble traditional craps at all. I think it might have failed because it's almost too original if that makes sense. but who knows

Thx for your input!

Damn near impossible to come up with a casino table game that Stephen has not had some version of. LOL. But after watching his chip tricks on You Tube, I believe some camera trickery must be involved.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

DRich

DRich

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June 26th, 2014 at 2:55:36 PM permalink

My biggest concern is that if people here are having trouble understanding it, i think it is unlikely to be successful in the general population.

At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.

Buzzard

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:01:35 PM permalink

Try explaining th is game in 30 -seconds.

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:14:02 PM permalink

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Buzzard

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:26:39 PM permalink

Quote: vegas702
That concerns me too & I'm honestly baffled. I sent the exact same game rules to miplet and Jon, and neither had any trouble understanding how it works.

I like that exercise! =) I guess I'd say:

"The game is like craps but you get to choose the point [either 6 or 8]. Your job is to then throw as many 7's as possible before hitting that point. And if you have a long roll without hitting a 7 or the point, then you still win on every 4th roll!"

NOW IF ONLY YOUR GAME WAS THAT SIMPLE !

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:28:04 PM permalink

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Nareed

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:33:17 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
Try explaining th is game in 30 -seconds.

Explain craps in 30 seconds. I dare you :)

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

Buzzard

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:34:37 PM permalink

Glad you think so. Try that out with a few people and say nothing else. I expect you will get puzzled looks if they try the game.
What do you think the chances are dealers will like this game ? Be honest. !

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:36:26 PM permalink

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Buzzard

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:38:14 PM permalink

Think craps would get anywhere if introduced as a new game today ?????????

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

Buzzard

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:39:46 PM permalink

Think dealers can't kill a game ? This one is headed for the graveyard. Why would a dealer want all theses headaches ? Bad enough with dice setters LOL

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:44:09 PM permalink

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Nareed

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:49:34 PM permalink

Quote: vegas702
You must have read my mind Nareed. I was thinking the same thing. <grin>

Nothing to it. I've spent whole sessions playing bubble craps while someone tries to explain the pass line bet to their friends. Some people never get it.

BTW I've noticed in bubble craps way too many people simply do place bets on numbers, usually on all of them. Make sure your game can handle that.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

Nareed

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June 26th, 2014 at 3:51:33 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
Think craps would get anywhere if introduced as a new game today ?????????

Honestly, I think any gaming company and any casino would say "Get that thing out of here NOW!" as soon as they saw the size of the table.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

Buzzard

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June 26th, 2014 at 4:20:07 PM permalink

Right you are. I did not say dealers could not understand the game. Just they put up with a lot of shit now, don't need stuff .

About now I am undecided whether you really want advice or now. Keven Luck came in here with Riverboat Roulette and was pitching in in craps terms, placing the 6 or 8, stuff like that. Left here and immediately removed any and all reference to craps from his literature and website

mrsuit31 was just in here asking about a paytable and immediately changed it.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/18685-pay-table-clarity-feedback/

Most game inventors are over protective of their baby

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 4:33:14 PM permalink

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GWAE

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June 26th, 2014 at 4:43:41 PM permalink

Quote: vegas702
Oh yes, definitely. Not over-protective, I'm just looking for specific changes that people think I should make regarding the bets.

what specific changes do you think I should make for each bet? Is the payout too high on the Scrimmage Line? or maybe I should change the win conditions on the Extra Point roll? [I was actually considering that] I'm definitely willing to make changes but concrete examples would help. Thx =)

I don't like the SB. I guess it is not meant to be easy but basically you have to roll back to back 7s in order to get a TD and EP. You would have to do that multiple times before a nice pay out.

After re reading the rules and thinking about it a bit more I am thinking that it is a decent game. However, I don't think you have a snow balls chance in hell of getting this into a casino. It is basically the same thing as craps. Why would a casino choose to take down a craps table and have people decide between the 2. They are just to similar.

Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW

vegas702

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June 26th, 2014 at 4:52:16 PM permalink

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MrCasinoGames

MrCasinoGames

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June 26th, 2014 at 7:18:41 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
Quote: vegas702
I never even thought about that. That's something I definitely should consider.

Thx for your input! =)

Quote: MrCasinoGames
Hi Vegas702,

Below is a Football-like Dice Table Game.

3 Dice Football.

Hello =)

I did come across that game while I was working on mine. After looking at its rules, I found that they're completely different from my game and doesn't resemble traditional craps at all. I think it might have failed because it's almost too original if that makes sense. but who knows

Thx for your input!

Damn near impossible to come up with a casino table game that Stephen has not had some version of. LOL. But after watching his chip tricks on You Tube, I believe some camera trickery must be involved.

Dear Buzzard,

3 Dice Football is Not my game.

I do have 150+ New Table Games, but 3 Dice Football is not one of them :)

Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com

Paradigm

Paradigm

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June 27th, 2014 at 5:55:15 PM permalink

Quote: vegas702
You're totally right. I apologize & should have at least stated that the regular non-patentable bets are also available..

I am still not sure, are these 4 new bets placed on an existing craps game that has Pass Line, Don't Pass all the hard ways, Horn Bets, Place Bets, etc.?

Or do the four new bets, Scrimmage Bet, etc. take the place of the Pass & Don't Pass, etc. but the prop bets in the middle are still available or what?

I am just not understanding what the layout looks like, perhaps you could post a picture of it.

vegas702

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June 27th, 2014 at 10:12:34 PM permalink

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GWAE

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June 28th, 2014 at 4:40:52 AM permalink

just a curiosity question. Is the craps design patented? Are you allowed to basically use the same felt but change a few words?

I also think by doing the same felt you are going to confuse players when they think they are walking up to a craps game.

Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW

vegas702

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June 28th, 2014 at 6:32:10 AM permalink

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Paradigm

Paradigm

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June 28th, 2014 at 7:59:17 AM permalink

I get the game concept a little bit better now that I see the layout.

The real question that needs to be addressed for every new game is why a player or an operator would opt to play or spread this game vs. games already having a footprint in the market....in this case craps as the alternative.

I don't see a compelling reason for that with this game concept. Nothing that is broken in the original game is fixed in this variation. I recommend approaching this new craps game development project from that perspective.....what does the game offer that is better than the original for both players & operators?

With that said, I think dice games are extremely hard to develop and this coming from someone who started in the business with a card & dice game. If new card game concepts have a 1 in 1000 shot of making it to 25 installs, I would say a dice game has a 1 in 10000 chance of making it that far.

Buzzard

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June 28th, 2014 at 8:08:06 AM permalink

I think your statistics might be a bit optimistic.

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

Paigowdan

Paigowdan

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June 28th, 2014 at 8:41:02 AM permalink

Less is actually more on casino games.

Also, Mixing games on a base game is a risk, a general no-no that Mike Shackleford has on game design tips. In this case it's mixing a non-gambling game with a gambling game. Both craps and American Football have detailed and unrelated rules that might not mix well. As I've often said, both Gin and Kahlua are worthy "stand-alone" drinks - that mix quite poorly.

What is often overlooked by a new game designer is that adding a twist to a game does not necessarily (read: Seldom) provide an improvement. It will consistently provide for a lot of dealer AND player pushback. This is often compounded with a "parent's rose-colored affection" for their own offspring and concoctions, where defense of this child is boundless. ("Whaddya mean she needs a make over??!! She's friggin' Miss America!") New Game designers are often overly enamored with their creations like a cat with a catnip toy when they need to be both very distant and very critical to see it clearly. On voting these new games, you really need a 60%+ majority of likes, and a crushing majority to have a real shot. People here have a pulse on gambling games.

I see maybe ten new games a month (less now), and the biggest questions or litmus tests I have BEFORE I forward to Sales for final approval (after math/IP solidity), is "can I picture Dean & Bobby proudly selling this thing?" "What would their sales pitch sound like?" .... 95% of new games get a sad rejection letter, and Once every couple of months a "5-percenter" makes it through. A minority of new game designers say "You're right - back to the drawing board" and most say or feel "How DARE you, I ought to slap your blind eyes!" - they feel that kind of attachment.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

DRich

DRich

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June 28th, 2014 at 10:07:49 AM permalink

Quote: GWAE
just a curiosity question. Is the craps design patented? Are you allowed to basically use the same felt but change a few words?

I also think by doing the same felt you are going to confuse players when they think they are walking up to a craps game.

Craps and Blackjack are in the public domain so they are free to be used by anyone.

On a side note:

When does Three Card Poker lose its patent protection? It must be soon.

At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.

Paigowdan

Paigowdan

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June 28th, 2014 at 10:13:25 AM permalink

In about eighteen months, I believe. Maybe Newman or Muskin can chime in. This was filed Feb 1999. 17 years brings it to 2016.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Buzzard