Buzzard
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June 22nd, 2014 at 7:19:30 PM permalink
I should start a new thread but I am too lazy. What is the future of table game exhibits at G2E . Bally had 12,000 square feet last year. This year they will have 13,800.
Wondering how much space Roger will have. I predict a lot less and less eye candy. Raving has not yet got a firm commitment from Galaxy. Not saying they won't offer a prize again, just they have not committed yet. Are e tables ever gonna gain a real foothold in casinos ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
beachbumbabs
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June 23rd, 2014 at 12:04:18 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I should start a new thread but I am too lazy. What is the future of table game exhibits at G2E . Bally had 12,000 square feet last year. This year they will have 13,800.
Wondering how much space Roger will have. I predict a lot less and less eye candy. Raving has not yet got a firm commitment from Galaxy. Not saying they won't offer a prize again, just they have not committed yet. Are e tables ever gonna gain a real foothold in casinos ?



The industry trend, according to Geoff Freeman and (can't think of his name) the CEO of the Golden Nugget, is towards table games, because that's what the youngest demographic wants. Slots square footage is receding over the last 5 years, and casino players don't want a single-player slots experience; they want a more social experience, and they want some skill in their gaming. Slots are considered the primary activity for age 60+; younger than that, it trends more and more to tables. Good news for us both, Buzz.

Take a look at Casino Journal from June 2014, with a very detailed discussion of this. It was the keynote topic at Southern Gaming Seminar in May.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AcesAndEights
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June 23rd, 2014 at 7:21:12 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

The industry trend, according to Geoff Freeman and (can't think of his name) the CEO of the Golden Nugget, is towards table games, because that's what the youngest demographic wants. Slots square footage is receding over the last 5 years, and casino players don't want a single-player slots experience; they want a more social experience, and they want some skill in their gaming. Slots are considered the primary activity for age 60+; younger than that, it trends more and more to tables. Good news for us both, Buzz.

Take a look at Casino Journal from June 2014, with a very detailed discussion of this. It was the keynote topic at Southern Gaming Seminar in May.


Wow, I had no idea this reversal had taken place! Very exciting if true, as I much prefer table games to machines.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Buzzard
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June 23rd, 2014 at 10:01:59 AM permalink
I beg to differ . The new players are addicted to the digital world. IPods, tablets, etc. I have seen empty roulette tables and a few feet away a crowded electronic roulette table. With young players sharing bets. And bubble craps is gaining traction. The smaller casinos in Blackhawk have a craps table and a roulette table as loss leaders. That can not go on forever. Labor keeps going up on table games.
Let,s see how much space Roger gets at G2E this year. Later I will like the news release about bally and G2E . Reading it you would not know bally even had table games.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
DRich
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June 23rd, 2014 at 10:10:17 AM permalink
Being mainly a slot machine guy, can someone give me rough estimates on how much the game manufacturers are charging for different leased table games? I understand there will be a wide range depending on game and casino. For comparison, I would estimate the average leased slot machine generates around $1500 a month in lease fees.
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Ibeatyouraces
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June 23rd, 2014 at 10:11:39 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
beachbumbabs
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June 23rd, 2014 at 6:37:22 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I beg to differ . The new players are addicted to the digital world. IPods, tablets, etc. I have seen empty roulette tables and a few feet away a crowded electronic roulette table. With young players sharing bets. And bubble craps is gaining traction. The smaller casinos in Blackhawk have a craps table and a roulette table as loss leaders. That can not go on forever. Labor keeps going up on table games.
Let,s see how much space Roger gets at G2E this year. Later I will like the news release about bally and G2E . Reading it you would not know bally even had table games.



Re: press releases. I noticed that as well. lol... I think a lot of what you're seeing about electronic craps and roulette goes to 3 things. Primarily, significantly lower minimums. Also, there's an intimidation factor to live tables you don't see on an electronic game, if you're the slightest bit unfamiliar with live dealers/other players/table etiquette. And, yes, their familiarity with electronics and video games will attract them to those.

Here's the article.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Buzzard
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June 23rd, 2014 at 7:20:48 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Re: press releases. I noticed that as well. lol... I think a lot of what you're seeing about electronic craps and roulette goes to 3 things. Primarily, significantly lower minimums. Also, there's an intimidation factor to live tables you don't see on an electronic game, if you're the slightest bit unfamiliar with live dealers/other players/table etiquette. And, yes, their familiarity with electronics and video games will attract them to those.

Here's the article.



I think that articles show the mindset that management throughout the industry has. The customer wants tables game but they are not as profitable as slots. Therefore we need to change the customer

Gee, that sounds like an idea that will work. Instead of focusing on giving the customer what he wants. The days of open the doors and let the suckers in are gone.
Online competition is in the near future. And B@M casinos plan to combat that by fleecing their current customer base. That has worked real well for horse and dog races tracks.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
beachbumbabs
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June 25th, 2014 at 6:16:31 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Quote: beachbumbabs

Re: press releases. I noticed that as well. lol... I think a lot of what you're seeing about electronic craps and roulette goes to 3 things. Primarily, significantly lower minimums. Also, there's an intimidation factor to live tables you don't see on an electronic game, if you're the slightest bit unfamiliar with live dealers/other players/table etiquette. And, yes, their familiarity with electronics and video games will attract them to those.

Here's the article.



I think that articles show the mindset that management throughout the industry has. The customer wants tables game but they are not as profitable as slots. Therefore we need to change the customer

Gee, that sounds like an idea that will work. Instead of focusing on giving the customer what he wants. The days of open the doors and let the suckers in are gone.
Online competition is in the near future. And B@M casinos plan to combat that by fleecing their current customer base. That has worked real well for horse and dog races tracks.



I'm reading a lot lately, including in that CJ issue in another article, that online gaming is (so far) a huge disappointment and underperformer as it's coming back in the US state by state. Also including some articles referenced in other threads. Not in a position to judge for myself whether that's true or hype, but definitely watching its progress.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Switch
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June 25th, 2014 at 11:29:38 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Being mainly a slot machine guy, can someone give me rough estimates on how much the game manufacturers are charging for different leased table games? I understand there will be a wide range depending on game and casino. For comparison, I would estimate the average leased slot machine generates around $1500 a month in lease fees.



Around $500 for a Blackjack variation. Higher for poker variations in general, up to $1,800 for some of the main ones. 3CP leading the rates at an even higher lease fee.

$100-$300 for a side wager depending on it's success. I believe that '21+3' leads this with rates higher than usual.

Don't forget to add another $600 if you want to lease a shuffling machine for the game as well.
DRich
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June 25th, 2014 at 2:06:23 PM permalink
Quote: Switch

Around $500 for a Blackjack variation. Higher for poker variations in general, up to $1,800 for some of the main ones. 3CP leading the rates at an even higher lease fee.

$100-$300 for a side wager depending on it's success. I believe that '21+3' leads this with rates higher than usual.

Don't forget to add another $600 if you want to lease a shuffling machine for the game as well.



Thank you, that is very helpful. I am a little surprised that a single slot machine commands higher lease fees than a table with six or seven seats.

I thought many years ago when I did some work with Derek Webb i had heard that Three Card Poker was doing around $1500.
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Nareed
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June 25th, 2014 at 2:42:14 PM permalink
I think I care more about good games than what form they take.

Last time in vegas, after a while I only played real craps when I wanted to bet more than 2X odds. Other than that,a nd the lower minimums, suually, for bubble craps, there's really very little difference in how I enjoy the game.
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FleaStiff
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June 25th, 2014 at 3:10:37 PM permalink
That is a good argument for the casinos not limiting themselves or trying to exclude any particular market segment.

And there are always "spouses and spouse equivalents" so interviewing gamblers may not always be the best option because a gambler's spouse often makes the decisions and spends money too.

Casinos deal with a nightly ebb and flow of a crowd and often have to shift crews around. Casinos just can't lock themselves into any long term expectations but must be ready to deal with all trends and fads amongst customers.
Buzzard
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June 26th, 2014 at 3:00:25 PM permalink
YEAH, BUT THEY DON'T. Walk into a casino with empty $25 BJ tables and ask why the minimum is $25. Management will tell you because it's FRiday night. DUH
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
FleaStiff
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June 26th, 2014 at 4:35:01 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

. Management will tell you ...

As you said. Management. Ain't nothin' worse for a casino to have management that didn't climb through the ranks. MBA managers never listen to dealers. Dealers don't earn tokes at empty tables. Dealers earn tokes at tables with minimum bets that are appropriate for that market. A full table at ten dollars beats an empty table at ANY amount. If you run a casino, keep your dealers as happy as you can. Happy dealers make for pleasant experiences for the players. Players can win or lose but if they are relatively happy they will dig a bit deeper into their pockets for you. Broke morose dealers standing at an empty table for half their shift cost the casino money.
Tomspur
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June 26th, 2014 at 4:48:43 PM permalink
3CP in 2005/6 was $480 per table per month. I would assume it has gone up appreciably from that spot. In the casino I'm currently in we negotiated and purchased the rights to the game for this property. I believe the deal was around the early 7 figures.
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AcesAndEights
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June 28th, 2014 at 10:22:11 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

3CP in 2005/6 was $480 per table per month. I would assume it has gone up appreciably from that spot. In the casino I'm currently in we negotiated and purchased the rights to the game for this property. I believe the deal was around the early 7 figures.


Isn't 3CP in the public domain now, if you don't run any of the progressives or anything? I'm surprised more casinos aren't just dealing vanilla 3CP and not paying the table fee. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding the parts of the game that require royalty payments.
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Paigowdan
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June 28th, 2014 at 11:01:51 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Isn't 3CP in the public domain now, if you don't run any of the progressives or anything? I'm surprised more casinos aren't just dealing vanilla 3CP and not paying the table fee. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding the parts of the game that require royalty payments.


No, not yet.
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Deucekies
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June 28th, 2014 at 11:49:14 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No, not yet.


Next year, right?
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Paigowdan
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June 28th, 2014 at 1:06:24 PM permalink
I think almost two years.

I will say Three Card Poker had the most incredible run of any proprietary game, and has become a Casino Pit "permanent standard" like Pai Gow Poker or BJ or Craps.
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Deucekies
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June 28th, 2014 at 1:07:34 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I think almost two years.

I will say Three Card Poker had the most incredible run of any proprietary game, and has become a Casino Pit "permanent standard" like Pai Gow Poker or BJ or Craps.


That's why I'm so surprised it didn't go over well in our joint. We only had a small handful of people who wanted to play it, not enough to justify having it.
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Paigowdan
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June 28th, 2014 at 1:10:44 PM permalink
Every gambling hall has its own players' group personality.

Some games that are a hit in 9 out of 10 casinos bomb here and there. Other games that don't take hold in any sort of a big way become an absolute standard at a handful of scattered card rooms, never to be removed.

Edit: things like 3x WPT, 6-card Pai Gow, 3-hand Hold 'em, Texas Shootout, etc., have a small group of local joints here it's "the house game of OUR house!" Two Cards High is a game that could never take off here in the states, but there are some Casinos in South Korea where it is just da bomb, and gets action like crazy.
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FleaStiff
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June 28th, 2014 at 2:11:08 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Two Cards High is a game that could never take off here in the states, but there are some Casinos in South Korea where it is just da bomb, and gets action like crazy.

This perhaps shows that casinos can be more "nimble" with table games than they can be with slot machines. I'm curious as to why you predict that TwoCardsHigh could never take off in the states? It reminds me of that cartoon about the NFL players being on strike and saying they are irreplaceable while in the background two suomo wrestlers are approaching carrying their resumes.
Buzzard
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June 28th, 2014 at 2:14:48 PM permalink
Slots can be changed in a heartbeat. Table games are a different animal.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Paigowdan
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June 28th, 2014 at 2:34:05 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

This perhaps shows that casinos can be more "nimble" with table games than they can be with slot machines. I'm curious as to why you predict that TwoCardsHigh could never take off in the states? It reminds me of that cartoon about the NFL players being on strike and saying they are irreplaceable while in the background two suomo wrestlers are approaching carrying their resumes.



They tried at the Riviera and Flamingo, and it just didn't catch on here. It uses a Baccarat type hand - 5 cards to make a zero point 3-card hand, with high cards/pair to win the top. See WOO entry. I like the game, a fun thing, but it was a case of "Try it - you'll like it!" versus "I'm not gonna try it" winning out.
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Buzzard
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June 28th, 2014 at 2:41:42 PM permalink
3 card poker never really caught on in Colorado and SWITCH was DOA. Yet in Ameristar , which has 38% of the market, 6 of the 12 BJ tables have STREAK as the side bet. But the most popular BJ side bet and leading in table placements is Buffalo Bust Bonus.

The limits were raised a few years ago to $100, but Colorado is still a $5 market.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Buzzard
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June 28th, 2014 at 2:53:46 PM permalink
I know that SHFL ( screw bally ) will get placements in Colorado for Free Bet and House Money. Free Bet might survive, I doubt that House Money will.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
FleaStiff
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June 28th, 2014 at 3:12:58 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Slots can be changed in a heartbeat. Table games are a different animal.


Individual slot machines can be changed in a heartbeat. Move it. Yank it. Change the pretty pictures, change the bells, change the whistles, change the par sheets. Try new, try old, etc. Sure that stuff is all "heartbeat"... but a casino gets too much revenue from its slot machines to change them all at once. Its like changing the entire menu versus adding one item.

Table games requires paper work, some training, some space allocation and some observation, but putting in one game of XXXXXX is easy. It won't send everyone out the door and its not likely to bring everyone in the door either.
Paigowdan
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June 28th, 2014 at 4:33:11 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Table games requires paper work, some training, some space allocation and some observation, but putting in one game of XXXXXX is easy. It won't send everyone out the door and its not likely to bring everyone in the door either.



True. Each new table game requires a ton of math and paperwork to get started, and for each jurisdictional approval, though game variations and independent BJ side bets are easier.

But once approved, additional tables in a gaming area are a layout install and a session of dealer/floor training.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
tringlomane
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June 28th, 2014 at 6:21:10 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan



Edit: things like 3x WPT, 6-card Pai Gow, 3-hand Hold 'em, Texas Shootout, etc., have a small group of local joints here it's "the house game of OUR house!" Two Cards High is a game that could never take off here in the states, but there are some Casinos in South Korea where it is just da bomb, and gets action like crazy.



Going to KC on thursday, Texas Shootout is a "house game" of Harrah's NKC. Also saw high card flush there a few weeks ago, was thinking about giving it a try, but the table was full.
Paigowdan
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June 28th, 2014 at 8:38:22 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Going to KC on thursday, Texas Shootout is a "house game" of Harrah's NKC. Also saw high card flush there a few weeks ago, was thinking about giving it a try, but the table was full.



Texas Shootout is a WILD Texas Hold 'em game that is dealt out of an 6-deck shoe!! Wild in the sense of outrageous. 6-deck shoe Texas Hold 'em......

It has immense appeal to those who are not off-put by multi-deck Hold 'em.

Do get FIVE Kings of diamonds! [I can't get the plurals straight, forget about the action playing it.]
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
miplet
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June 28th, 2014 at 8:41:47 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Texas Shootout is a WILD Texas Hold 'em game that is dealt out of an 8-deck shoe!!

It has immense appeal to those who are not off-put by multi-deck Hold 'em.

Do get FIVE King of diamonds!


Do they have a 8 deck version? 6 decks is all I have seen.
Edit to add: Sure Dan, edit your post after I quote it. :+)
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Paigowdan
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June 28th, 2014 at 8:42:37 PM permalink
I think it's all now 6-deck. 8 decks spill too often during shuffling. (I did edit it, I plead guilty - it went 6-deck. STILL....)

Still a wild and interesting concept. I don't think 6 versus 8 decks detracts from multi-deck Hold 'em....it's still bona-fide 6-deck massively multi-deck Hold 'em.

It's one of those games that where it hooks in, it's the bomb, but many places don't want to try it, like it's un-American or something....it is nutty and fascinating and works where people "get it."

I can see where multi-deck poker messes with my head, - I'm less adventurous now. But hey, I can see it having juice...


Tringlomane - PLAY it and report back!!!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
UCivan
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June 29th, 2014 at 8:31:01 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Also saw high card flush there a few weeks ago, was thinking about giving it a try, but the table was full.

Dan, How many placements for High Card Flush in US now? Is it in UK or France now?
MrCasinoGames
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June 29th, 2014 at 10:49:17 AM permalink
Quote: UCivan

Dan, How many placements for High Card Flush in US now? Is it in UK or France now?


High Card Flush was trial in the UK (I think it was last year), don't know how it get on.
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