Recommendations for a gaming patent attorney and a gaming mathematician
Quote: ambaI'm wondering if the Wizard or anybody else can recommend a great patent attorney and a great mathematician that specialize in casino gaming, anyone?
I can recommend either Rich Newman (RichN) directly, as my patent attorney, or Jon Muskin (jon) indirectly on here as patent attorneys. Top marks, both.
For mathematicians, CrystalMath on here gets my highest praise for detailed development work before official testing. CRMousseau is also very good, and accredited with many jurisdictions already if you're at that point. Both did an excellent job for me on developing my game.
Any of them should respond to a PM on here. PM me if you need email addresses instead (though I don't have one for jon).
I am not recommending against anyone else on here, and there are excellent guys; I just stuck to my personal correspondents and people I've retained.
Quote: beachbumbabsCRMousseau is also very good, and accredited with many jurisdictions already if you're at that point...
PM me if you need email addresses instead (though I don't have one for jon).
What's involved in gaming math accreditation? I keep hearing how few gaming mathematicians there are, so it hadn't occurred to me that there was some accreditation process in place.
edit: Um, it just hit me that there may be a reason for keeping emails off the forums (spam bots and such), but Jon Muskin's email is available from http://gamingmath.com/related.html
Quote: beachbumbabsI can recommend either Rich Newman (RichN) directly, as my patent attorney, or Jon Muskin (jon) indirectly on here as patent attorneys. Top marks, both.
For mathematicians, CrystalMath on here gets my highest praise for detailed development work before official testing. CRMousseau is also very good, and accredited with many jurisdictions already if you're at that point. Both did an excellent job for me on developing my game.
Any of them should respond to a PM on here. PM me if you need email addresses instead (though I don't have one for jon).
I am not recommending against anyone else on here, and there are excellent guys; I just stuck to my personal correspondents and people I've retained.
Math reports - pre-approval for GLI/BMM or for debugging your game design:
Charles Raymond Mosseau of Winnipeg Canada. His business site. The best in the business for Gaming Apps and complex poker games. I used him for the success of my EZ Pai Gow commission-Free pai Gow poker, as well as for complex Gaming apps to play with precision and beauty for Internet and I-Phone applications.
Steve How of San Diego also one of THE most respected gaming mathematicians, and the "go to" guy for math reports for many gaming distributors.
Either man can do the type of job that'll put you and your game on top, and immensely respected by the Major Gaming labs, both GLI and BMM.
For Specifically casino game-related Patent work:
Firstly, Richard Newman of Howard & Howard here in Las Vegas.
Also and very fine for all Gaming patent work is Jon Muskin, Esq., if you are on the East Coast.
Quote: socksWhat's involved in gaming math accreditation? I keep hearing how few gaming mathematicians there are, so it hadn't occurred to me that there was some accreditation process in place.
edit: Um, it just hit me that there may be a reason for keeping emails off the forums (spam bots and such), but Jon Muskin's email is available from http://gamingmath.com/related.html
Thanks, socks. I knew he had it out there somewhere, but couldn't remember the site.
As to gaming accreditation, I leave it to those that have to do it, but I know it's jurisdictional. My impression is that you have to prove your credibility to each particular Gaming board, not necessarily with a test, but perhaps by degree/resume plus reporting criteria.
Quote: socksWhat's involved in gaming math accreditation? I keep hearing how few gaming mathematicians there are, so it hadn't occurred to me that there was some accreditation process in place.
Basically, see:
Charles Mousseau's site or Steve How's math site for your preliminary "pre-approval" math report. Then....
BMM Compliance Laboratories Gaming math submission
GLI Laboratories Gaming math submission
For your "Government Approved Math Report," - Then....
Nevada Control Board - new game submission procedure.
Washington state Gambling commission - Game submission and Licensing.
This assumes you have a patent, and a gaming sales force and a decent game that doesn't infringe and plays well by the time you did your basic game specs, with how to play cards, layout (felt) art design, dealing procedures, and Rules of Play document, and layouts printed out. ("Willy's layouts" is a good cheap and quick source here in Las Vegas and California. Also good is the Gemaco card playing company for layouts.)
Also of importance is about $15,000 in your checking account.
And get ready to train a LOT of casino dealers on your game.
Or else call a distributor to sign you for 75% to 85% of your gross revenue, IF you game is really good. Ask babs.
Quote: socksOk, what I'm getting from this thread and from this one, https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/13312-being-required-gli-approval-is-ridiculous/ ,is that mathematicians aren't accredited, but GLI and BMM are testing labs that are accredited... and that some mathematicians may have special relationships with these 2 labs?
yes and no.
There are a few Gaming mathematicians (listed herein) who specialize in producing "pre-approval" or "basic soundness of game" for math reports that are;"
1. attached to your game, and for;
2. submission to Government-Approved Laboratories, - who give final approval for your game to be submitted.
There ARE a handful of "reasonably quick and cheap and very accurate" who both do the job right, AND are respected as good sources by the Two major Laboratories. You go into BMM or GLI with a Charles Mousseau or Steve How report, they know the math is right and solid (these guys have access to monster computer systems, are awesome gaming math simulator programmers, and are also seriously experienced gamblers - and even former dealers in one case).
They will save you time AND money on BOTH ends, and will get you approved more quickly by virtue of great experience and expertise. It's a little like asking, "Well, there are several doctors who can operate on my young son's brain cancer medical problem, so who is exactly the best and most experienced....hmmm....shall I save money here on THIS important effort??) Well, actually Mike himself is the best, but is semi retired and impossibly expensive....who's the next best....(And Cindy Liu was also one of the best, we used her at Galaxy extensively, but she went into a dedicated corporate position at a slot manufacturer and left the "immensely independent mathematicians field" here...)
Now, you can hire a high-school math teacher for simple side bet math reports, (I write submission math reports on simpler stuff to save time and a few dollars) - but for complex main games, particularly multi-card poker and advanced slot machine games that require a 500 million to 500 billion-hand simulations, you pretty much have to use the pro's listed above.
AND you really have to get your game down pat VERY accurately by that point, (as well as your provisional patent with either Richard or or Jon M.) - to reduce their consulting "correction" expenses. Mike Shackelford, the administrator of this site, had charged 5-digits sums plus for advanced math work on very complex commercial slot and table game, including advanced game protection reports, (and worth the price for IGT or WMS-level game submissions)
- but for a new and novel poker or blackjack game of less than eight card hands and straightforward play with CLEAN dealing procedures and exception handling already done, the preliminary math report is about $500 to $4,000, with that range being a three or four-card or Blackjack variation type game.
Or...you can go back to college and get Master's degrees in both applied mathematics and statistics, as well as a computer science degree, then learn this crazy business, - and then do it yourself.
But not to worry...once you have your basic game and math report plus patent work (about $10,000 by that point), then BMM or GLI will charge you about $5,000 to double-check their fine work, and then the gaming authorities will charge you another $3,000 (NV) to $50,000 (Pennsylvania and NJ) for state approvals.
You can submit to a gaming distributor with only a basic pre-lim math report and a provisional patent (less than $5,000), with the game distributor covering the rest IF the game distributor gets about 80% of gross revenue for the next 4 or 6 years and thinks your game is "on fire."
Quote: Paigowdan...then BMM or GLI will charge you about $5,000 to double-check their fine work, and then the gaming authorities will charge you another $3,000 (NV) to $50,000 (Pennsylvania and NJ) for state approvals.
You can submit to a gaming distributor with only a basic pre-lim math report and a provisional patent (less than $5,000), with the game distributor covering the rest IF the game distributor gets about 80% of gross revenue for the next 4 or 6 years and thinks your game is "on fire."
Interesting. Thanks for the info. I was mostly concerned with the nuts and bolts of regulations. I have the CS degree/minor in math, and recently managed to duplicate the results for MS (edit: Mississippi Stud), so I'm slowly closing in on being able to do my own math. I was just concerned, after reading this thread, that that may have less value than anticipated (when I eventually get there).
Quote: socksInteresting. Thanks for the info. I was mostly concerned with the nuts and bolts of regulations. I have the CS degree/minor in math, and recently managed to duplicate the results for MS (edit: Mississippi Stud), so I'm slowly closing in on being able to do my own math. I was just concerned, after reading this thread, that that may have less value than anticipated (when I eventually get there).
Socks, your math ability will be really useful. MS stud is a tricky math game (as is fancy Texas Hold 'em and Pai Gow variants), and it seems you've really cut your teeth as a game designer with that.
I mean REALLY useful. Mathematical literacy will save you tons as a game designer.....
....not only in coming up with a sound and provable game from the get-go, - but with a math report and a game spec TO and FOR a great independent mathematician that'll make your preliminary math report a $900 "no-hassle cinch" with NO spec changes (instead of $4,000 after annoying, messy and time-delaying re-working), but having that extra money and a clear report to sail through BMM or GLI (price them both). (** DO note that BMM is not yet approved for Indiana, Kansas, Maine, and Illinois currently, but 40 other states...if poker or BJ games, you'll need the GLI work for the Mid-West, for a strong launch.)
The nuts and bolts of the regulations require "game-protected and sequentially correct" dealing procedures and "Official Rules of Play" to be written up and submitted - Washington State examples here.
Also see as well as samples for The Nevada Gaming Control Board's approved games Rules of Play. I spend 20% of my time writing these things up for Galaxy Gaming. [On this, see my work at Washing State Heads Up Hold 'em game rules. Ken Dickinson is my excellent supervisor at Galaxy, who wraps it all up and submits the completed game kits to Washington state.]
Also see Nevada Approval EZ Pai Gow that I did years ago at DEQ working with Dave P at DEQ. But absolutely trust me, this type of gaming compliance work, - when not for your own game, or even for your own game - becomes absolute drudgery writing work. "...starting from the dealer's rightmost position or "First base," the dealer begins dealing one card to each position, followed by....and according to NVGB nv.rs.117.88 regulation #87943........" - LOOK at the footnotes on Washington State progressive system approval documents to get an idea....you go over and over and over everything written, asking, "Does this actually and correctly describe every single pain-staking step that is carried out to deal the game under all circumstances...sh**t, let me check this again after a 14th cup of coffee.......
Note that Washington State doesn't require BMM/GLI math, - AND allows "bonus line items" in main bet and side bet pay tables - for future use or game design expansion and changes. A remarkable state Washington.
**Advice: just as you hire a gaming mathematician with gambling experience for the math reports, - you can hire a English lit major with gambling experience for the gaming documents: rules of Play, dealing procedures....
But getting a good game out is beyond being a Salmon in the endeavor, with the exception of Babs, just a brilliant game and a brilliant strategy from jump street. Barbara Walton, she is absolutely one sharp newcomer whom I salute.
Of course, there are other services for which an official report is not required -- counting vulnerability, hole-carding vulnerability, etc., -- and naturally I am happy to provide those services.
You've got to be squared away when you hit BMM/GLI, and the casino floor.
Quote: PaigowdanNote that Washington State doesn't require BMM/GLI math, - AND allows "bonus line items" in main bet and side bet pay tables - for future use or game design expansion and changes. A remarkable state Washington.
I agree :). Kind of cool that we frequently get new games here before Vegas.
Except GOOD LUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For my Poker For Roulette side bet, I used Rich Newman. I got his name on Dan's recommendation, even though I live in NJ. I gotta assume that wan't meant as a slight to Jon Muskin, but probably because Dan hadn't had the opportunity to work with Jon yet. At the time, Dan was still working as a dealer at Fiesta Henderson.Quote: PaigowdanFor Specifically casino game-related Patent work:
Firstly, Richard Newman of Howard & Howard here in Las Vegas.
Also and very fine for all Gaming patent work is Jon Muskin, Esq., if you are on the East Coast.
--
For my math, I used Mike. But he retired from the new game math business after working on my idea. Although Mike assured me that he was already planning on retiring when he took on my project, I can't help but think that I pushed him over the edge. I DID bug the crap out of him while we were working on it.
WoV really is your one stop shop for finding out info!!!
Quote: ambaSo, do I understand correctly that you need the math work before the patent or the other way around? It seems to me that it creates a problem as the game is not protected if you do the math first and it might not be accurate if you do the patent first. Am I missing something?
They're independent of each other. You do both at any time when you have the game design down pat.
You can do the patent first, and cover the basic specific game mechanisms, and then fine-tune it with a mathematician. If you radically change the design as a result, however, you may need to file an additional patent.
Quote: TomspurI have had contact with DRich on here and he is top class. Some game mathematics from CRMosseau and although it was very easy, it was still very professionally done.
WoV really is your one stop shop for finding out info!!!
I think Tom may have me confused with someone else (Rich Newman). I am neither an attorney nor mathematician. My background is casino systems and games development.
Quote: ambaSo, the patent is on the game proper but you can change the numbers after?
You can amend a patent in the early stages, if necessary, but it isn't always necessary.
The patent describes the game's novel concepts and mechanisms, with sample pay tables, etc. If you add pay tables, it isn't necessary to change the patent as the concept and idea is similar or is the same original idea, and is described and detailed. Unless, of course you add or change new game play concepts, ideas, and mechanisms.
For example, if a patent describes a new "variable length flush" as a new poker element (such as High Card Flush), and also mentions the use of a dealer's hand qualifier of a 9-high hand as a house edge mechanism, if some casino happens to use a ten-high hand instead, to increase the house edge, the basic mechanism is still the same, and the original patent remains valid.
Quote: PaigowdanBasically, see:
For your "Government Approved Math Report," - Then....
Nevada Control Board - new game submission procedure.
Washington state Gambling commission - Game submission and Licensing.
Paigowdan,
Great information, thanks. Could you, or other casino executives and experts, talk about how to get new games into the great States of Oklahoma, Arizona and California?
Quote: UCivanPaigowdan,
Great information, thanks. Could you, or other casino executives and experts, talk about how to get new games into the great States of Oklahoma, Arizona and California?
I can talk about Nevada and Washington State; other jurisdictions (OK, AZ, CA) I am less familiar with. We have reps who handle specific areas, but I am certain someone of knowledge will chime in.
I will say this:
With the exception of Washington (which puts gaming math performance as the responsibility of the card rooms), you'll need:
1. That GLI/BMM math report, often with a state-specific "letter," which is a math report analyzed specifically for that specific state's need. Many states accept the "general letter" or base BMM/GLI math report, which you got with the help of an independent math report.
2. Patent application Proof;
3. Rules of Play, Dealing procedures, and how-to-play cards;
4. Layout artwork.
5. Proof of business license/incorporation (some states) and business tax id number.
6. Criminal history background checks for most states.
7. Additional forms (list of business partners, business office lease, etc.)
just checking on the great information provided here.
If based in Australia and (hopefully) a distributor such as Ballys or Galaxy pick up the game, are they the ones under points 5 and 6 that provide proof of business and tax numbers and criminal checks or do they need all the inventors details also.
Quote: timingHi Dan
just checking on the great information provided here.
If based in Australia and (hopefully) a distributor such as Ballys or Galaxy pick up the game, are they the ones under points 5 and 6 that provide proof of business and tax numbers and criminal checks or do they need all the inventors details also.
Not sure about Australia, but assuming similar business climates, the inventor(s) need to provide some proof of business bona-fides, as well as tax reporting id numbers of the inventor's company and its principals, as they'll be sending royalties to the inventor and company. Some - many - jurisdictions require a criminal background check for a game's approval from all parties receiving monies from gambling sources. Casino games and their involved parties get checked out so that all is on the up-and-up, to be approved.
The harsh reality is that game creation is more for the enthusiast than for the entrepreneur. If your already thinking that cuts are too high, you either have the next big thing (which we all think we have including myself :-)) or you have between $50,000-$250,000 spare to invest with a 99% of not getting $1 back.
Once your idea is patented and approved by the gaming commission which is the smallest part of the process, you have to get a casino to believe in your game test it, have great test results meaning that your game is making the casino more than a different game that could be there instead. Once you have all of this and between $50,000-250,000 then and only then will you be able to decide on this decision.
Best of luck, if you are successful let us know and we can send your our games to be distributed!
FYI I used Jon Muskin and he was excellent as well as BMM test labs which I would highly recommend. Either way I don't think you can go wrong with who you choose!
Quote: Paigowdanyes and no.
There are a few Gaming mathematicians (listed herein) who specialize in producing "pre-approval" or "basic soundness of game" for math reports that are;"
1. attached to your game, and for;
2. submission to Government-Approved Laboratories, - who give final approval for your game to be submitted.
There ARE a handful of "reasonably quick and cheap and very accurate" who both do the job right, AND are respected as good sources by the Two major Laboratories. You go into BMM or GLI with a Charles Mousseau or Steve How report, they know the math is right and solid (these guys have access to monster computer systems, are awesome gaming math simulator programmers, and are also seriously experienced gamblers - and even former dealers in one case).
They will save you time AND money on BOTH ends, and will get you approved more quickly by virtue of great experience and expertise. It's a little like asking, "Well, there are several doctors who can operate on my young son's brain cancer medical problem, so who is exactly the best and most experienced....hmmm....shall I save money here on THIS important effort??) Well, actually Mike himself is the best, but is semi retired and impossibly expensive....who's the next best....(And Cindy Liu was also one of the best, we used her at Galaxy extensively, but she went into a dedicated corporate position at a slot manufacturer and left the "immensely independent mathematicians field" here...)
Now, you can hire a high-school math teacher for simple side bet math reports, (I write submission math reports on simpler stuff to save time and a few dollars) - but for complex main games, particularly multi-card poker and advanced slot machine games that require a 500 million to 500 billion-hand simulations, you pretty much have to use the pro's listed above.
AND you really have to get your game down pat VERY accurately by that point, (as well as your provisional patent with either Richard or or Jon M.) - to reduce their consulting "correction" expenses. Mike Shackelford, the administrator of this site, had charged 5-digits sums plus for advanced math work on very complex commercial slot and table game, including advanced game protection reports, (and worth the price for IGT or WMS-level game submissions)
- but for a new and novel poker or blackjack game of less than eight card hands and straightforward play with CLEAN dealing procedures and exception handling already done, the preliminary math report is about $500 to $4,000, with that range being a three or four-card or Blackjack variation type game.
Or...you can go back to college and get Master's degrees in both applied mathematics and statistics, as well as a computer science degree, then learn this crazy business, - and then do it yourself.
But not to worry...once you have your basic game and math report plus patent work (about $10,000 by that point), then BMM or GLI will charge you about $5,000 to double-check their fine work, and then the gaming authorities will charge you another $3,000 (NV) to $50,000 (Pennsylvania and NJ) for state approvals.
You can submit to a gaming distributor with only a basic pre-lim math report and a provisional patent (less than $5,000), with the game distributor covering the rest IF the game distributor gets about 80% of gross revenue for the next 4 or 6 years and thinks your game is "on fire."
Explains the investment required and the process. Great post.
