One for the Money opening
Quote: mrsuit31So in a patent infringement lawsuit who decides who is the victor? judge or jury?
You understand that it's not up to the jury to interpret the law, right?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYou understand that it's not up to the jury to interpret the law, right?
yup
Quote: mrsuit31yup
But juries seem to be able to know what is right or wrong, despite what the law is that particular day. Jury nullification is not always apparent. Probably why I am a free man today.
Quote: BuzzardBut juries seem to be able to know what is right or wrong, despite what the law is that particular day. Jury nullification is not always apparent. Probably why I am a free man today.
haha you mean the jury was selected wisely by your atty...
Quote: mrsuit31yup
In that case, we are on the same page. I could not tell from your post.
As for whether these patents will or won't hold up, I have no idea. I have talked to lawyers who think that they will not, but I'm sure that there are equally good lawyers who think that they will. I look forward to the day when one gets challenged so we can find out.
Quote: beachbumbabsHmmm. Well, good news and bad news, I guess. OftM has come out of Iowa and Delaware, but is doing well in Washington State, and the Venetian trial is over, but the Nevada NGC final approval is yet to come. Opening soon/possibly already open in Manila, the Philippines. Out of Aspers in London, but into 2 other British casinos last month. Several other prospective installs after a recent show, not ready for publication. This is such a proprietary business and I am such a neophyte that I have no basis for comparison other than anecdotes from independent developers posted on here; maybe it's doing great, maybe average, maybe dying on the vine, or anywhere on that scale. But it's out there, we did receive our first royalty check a couple of weeks ago (thank you, Bally!), so I consider that a huge milestone; somebody paid us, and even if it never happens again, we got that far. :)
I'm assuming 'come out of Iowa and Delaware' means it was tried there, and the casinos decided against continuing with it? Did they give you specific reasons why? Anything other than "It didn't make enough money?"
Congrats on first check!!!!
General info on OFTM installs, which opened in Iowa in Feb. It has been going through places, 5 in the US with it opening/opened in California now, other 4 US pulled it after 2-6 months; 3 installs in Britain, one still has it. Pending 1 in Canada, if they like it, will install 4-5 more up there; still open in Manila, the Philippines. All to the best of my knowledge. I took another look at it twice in the past 6 months; made some suggested changes in April Bally did not adopt, made another in October they liked and will try in California, see if it improves the player experience (it should, it improves the HE for the player, and changes the appearance of the game). I'll get into details of that change if it gets installed with the game.
Lost several proponents of the game when folks changed jobs here and there, but the game itself is holding too high, with not enough drop, and player retention is less than necessary. It starts well but interest sometimes dwindles after several months rather than growing a return fan base in its present incarnation. Roger did not feel there was enough room with their decreased floor space at G2E post-merger and several new games to show for us to be on the floor this year, with the lukewarm performance to that point.
I'm being a bit vague on purpose, though Roger has said I can say whatever I want to on here, so I'm sharing what I'm comfortable putting out publicly in the hopes that other game designers will find it useful. It may be that the redesign is the magic bullet, or it may just not be viable in the long run. I'm told it takes about 2 years for a game to really catch on, so we're not done yet, but I can't say it's a smashing success. Definitely a learning experience, and worth the work. :)
to over 50 publishers until he finally
sold one. 7 years later, his first novel,
Carrie, was a bestseller and made him
$400,000.. What did he do in the
7 years between 1967 and 1974.
Worked his ass off making almost
no money until he wrote something
that hit a chord. What he did after
1974 is astounding by any measure.
Persistence, it's the common thread
that runs thru most success stories.
As EB said, persistence is key and the latest changes may be the ones that give it the magic sauce.
Do you know where in CA the game is opening......I'll add $100 or more to the drop if it is within 90 minutes of my So CA location.
Sorry to hear it's not going that great. But I think it's great that at least it's still going. Your lack of information about it lately made me think that it was dead. The fact that Bally's is still working it, still finding new installs and trying new tweaks is a great thing. It shows that they haven't given up.
Continued best of luck....
I, too, give SHFL/Bally/SG and especially Roger kudos for continuing to carry and work the game. He has been honest and forthright throughout the process, but as he said, there comes a time when a game has to stand on its own legs, and this one's still crawling.
When I arrived at around 4 PM on New Year's Day, UCW was packed with several observers trying to look on and get a sense of what this new game was all about. I left to play some blackjack as I wasn't getting a seat upon arrival. Barona has two Casino War tables in addition to UCW all within 15' of each other. One Casino War table was closed.
After a hour of BJ, I came back to two players and a crowd that had dissipated. I sat down and bought in for $100 to the $5 min table. I have to admit the game was more fun than I anticipated. Great hands result when you pay for a switch card and receive a Jack - Ace and end up raising post trade and winning three units.
The table filled up again as onlookers asked about the game and I was more than happy to explain basic strategy to them. Even with a game as simple as this one, intuition on how to play is not easy for the type of player interested in a casino war variant. Once players knew how to play, they I had more than one say the game was fun.
In my opinion, the game is a lot better than Casino War in player decisions and volatility. Those are positives for some players and negatives for others. One Casino War player expressed not liking to put up multiple units and went back to the traditional War game. Others liked the fact there was more to do than just get one card and be done. I think the game finds a niche in the same prooerties where Casino War is already doing well & Barona is such a property.
Having someone be able to explain basic strategy onsite would add to the likelihood the game succeeds as my guess is making any type of error on the margin shoots the edge up pretty quickly from its healthy 3%+ under optimum play. Maybe even putting basic strategy on the rack card would help, which I had to ask for as opposed to having them on the table.
I hope this is the installation that finds traction for the game as it certainly should be the natural replacement for every Casino War table Bally Tech has in place....or at least a second install at those properties.
People who see the basic strategy on the layout will play; people who are clueless will stand and gawk for awhile and then drift away.
Quote: ParadigmI got a chance to play BBB's One for the Money, re-branded by Bally Tech to "Ultimate Casino War" at Barona. Make no mistake this is the same game and was just installed at a property where Casino War is a big draw (Barona is an 18+ casino).
When I arrived at around 4 PM on New Year's Day, UCW was packed with several observers trying to look on and get a sense of what this new game was all about. I left to play some blackjack as I wasn't getting a seat upon arrival. Barona has two Casino War tables in addition to UCW all within 15' of each other. One Casino War table was closed.
After a hour of BJ, I came back to two players and a crowd that had dissipated. I sat down and bought in for $100 to the $5 min table. I have to admit the game was more fun than I anticipated. Great hands result when you pay for a switch card and receive a Jack - Ace and end up raising post trade and winning three units.
The table filled up again as onlookers asked about the game and I was more than happy to explain basic strategy to them. Even with a game as simple as this one, intuition on how to play is not easy for the type of player interested in a casino war variant. Once players knew how to play, they I had more than one say the game was fun.
In my opinion, the game is a lot better than Casino War in player decisions and volatility. Those are positives for some players and negatives for others. One Casino War player expressed not liking to put up multiple units and went back to the traditional War game. Others liked the fact there was more to do than just get one card and be done. I think the game finds a niche in the same prooerties where Casino War is already doing well & Barona is such a property.
Having someone be able to explain basic strategy onsite would add to the likelihood the game succeeds as my guess is making any type of error on the margin shoots the edge up pretty quickly from its healthy 3%+ under optimum play. Maybe even putting basic strategy on the rack card would help, which I had to ask for as opposed to having them on the table.
I hope this is the installation that finds traction for the game as it certainly should be the natural replacement for every Casino War table Bally Tech has in place....or at least a second install at those properties.
Paradigm,
Thanks very much for the detailed report! One note; this install has the simplest low-odds-paytable installed, where if the player wins with a 6 or under they get paid 2x all bets. Which brings the HE down from 3.823 to around 2.66, and the EOR less than that. (CM, could you please put the correct number up there? I'm travelling and don't have all my records.) So, at least in my opinion, that's a significant improvement for the player, and should help retention. Remains to be seen, but I'm very happy with initial word on it.
Quote: ParadigmI got a chance to play BBB's One for the Money, re-branded by Bally Tech to "Ultimate Casino War" at Barona.
Wait a minute, hold the phone. When
this game was first presented here, I
said all it was is just another version
of Casino War. I was told that in no way
was it anything like CW, that I was a
blankety blank for even suggesting it.
Now Bally (Roger Snow?) has relabeled
it Ultimate Casino War? But that can't
be, it is nothing like CW I was told.
Gee whiz, I really hate it when I'm so
blatantly and obviously right. It just
makes me feel awful..
I finally got to play this game with my poker group. Here's the player mat I whipped up based on the rules and photo at WoO...
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[I actually print it on light green card stock to roughly match the felt on my poker table.]
The evening began with a shoe of Casino War since most players had never tried it. It's not hard to see why it is successful. Once people realize it's simply the game they played as a kid--the first card game most people are taught (although mine was Slap Jack)--they learn it in 30 seconds. The players enjoyed it but it's certainly a frustrating game and, once the novelty wears off, somewhat tedious.
For the next shoe we switched to One For The Money and wow! What a difference a trade makes. The idle chatter during Casino War vanished and quiet concentration settled over the table with occasional exchanges of tactical ideas. There were oohs and ahhs when a trade turned a 6 into an ace, while turning a 6 into a deuce was met with groans and laughter. By the end of the shoe everyone was smiling (cash wise they fared much better than in Casino War) and wanted to play more and where could they find it in a casino etc. Big hit.
So Babs, I have no idea what the status of your creation is, but I thought you should know that it's still making people happy in the world.
Side Note: Does anyone know what the house edge is for the 3 card bonus the casino used? There's no payoff for a pair (which obviously sucks) but the straight and flush pays were both cranked up.
SHFL still has it on the shelf but is not actively marketing it. Really glad you put the low hand odds on it, too, because it's vastly better paying that.
What a nice surprise, that you went to the trouble! If you can get your casino to request an install, SHFL will do it.
All the comment cards and surveys have come back very positive. However, those first installs, people loved it, but they were losing their money too quickly and it faded after a couple of months in the US, about a year in the UK, and 1.5 years in Phillipines, with a total of 17 installs. With the paytable, it lasted a year at Barona in Socal, and even better, the Crowne has had it in for 3.2 years now.
Here's the graphics and rules Crowne is using.
https://www.crownmelbourne.com.au/casino/casino-games/poker-war
I'm hoping to revive some interest in the next few months. I think it has potential, too. Thanks again!
Quote: beachbumbabsI missed a question. Right now, the only casino offering it is Crowne Melbourne in Australia. They rebranded it again as Poker War and did some great graphics, both on the website and on the felt. They're also offering it with the low odds pay table, which it was rolled out without using at an ugly 3.823% HE. I don't have a spreadsheet with me (traveling) but I think Crowne is around 1.8% HE, and the paytable you're using is around .9%
All the comment cards and surveys have come back very positive. However, those first installs, people loved it, but they were losing their money too quickly and it faded after a couple of months in the US, about a year in the UK, and 1.5 years in Phillipines, with a total of 17 installs. With the paytable, it lasted a year at Barona in Socal, and even better, the Crowne has had it in for 3.2 years now.
Here's the graphics and rules Crowne is using.
https://www.crownmelbourne.com.au/casino/casino-games/poker-war
I'm hoping to revive some interest in the next few months. I think it has potential, too. Thanks again!
This question may be too prying, so you can answer vaguely (or ignore it all together).
I know about what it costs to take a casino game from concept to launch. It’s not cheap. Do game creators generally recoup their investment on games like this that end up having limited installations?
Quote: gamerfreakThis question may be too prying, so you can answer vaguely (or ignore it all together).
I know about what it costs to take a casino game from concept to launch. It’s not cheap. Do game creators generally recoup their investment on games like this that end up having limited installations?
I can only speak to my own experience. We sold it for more than it cost us to develop it.
Game distributor, I'm not privy to their internal spreadsheets, so I'm not going to speculate.
Quote: beachbumbabs
Game distributor, I'm not privy to their internal spreadsheets, so I'm not going to speculate.
Did you just assume gamerfreaks profession
Its the same way with the title of a casino game, the casino can call it what they want.
game revenues for short term trials are highly variable.
good luck to all who play it.
Quote: FleaStiffthe title of a book is determined by the publisher, not the author.
Its the same way with the title of a casino game, the casino can call it what they want.
game revenues for short term trials are highly variable.
good luck to all who play it.
You bring up a good point. Marketing can call it whatever works for that location. It's been Shipwreck (variation), One Card Draw, OFTM, Ultimate Casino War, and Poker War. But SHFL has always acknowledged the IP is mine and scheduled royalties and paperwork accordingly. I am a big Roger Snow fan - I have found him to be a man of integrity throughout my learning process.
Quote: beachbumbabsMarketing can call it whatever works for that location. It's been Shipwreck (variation), One Card Draw, OFTM, Ultimate Casino War, and Poker War.
I think "Trade War" would be a good, descriptive 2-word name for it. Unfortunately it makes the game sound boring. What would the table art look like? A GDP graph? Two cargo ships firing broadsides of tariffs at each other?
The things you don't think about when you're designing a game.
Quote: GialmereI think "Trade War" would be a good, descriptive 2-word name for it. Unfortunately it makes the game sound boring. What would the table art look like? A GDP graph? Two cargo ships firing broadsides of tariffs at each other?
The things you don't think about when you're designing a game.
Our favorite variation was "shipwreck gold". Same game, but instead of trading with the deck, a player bet equal to ante to steal either of dealer's two cards (port or starboard betting circles.). The dealer would then replace that card from the top of the deck until all players were done. It added an extra something to take one of the dealer's golden cards away. Not that you knew what they were.
It had a sea-blue felt with a shipwreck logo, pirate ship broken on a desert island, bullion spilling out the sides, and red and green bet circles for port and starboard.
