Dealer First Blackjack

Quote: Thermos

Experience as a dealer has no positive correlation to expertise as a game developer. The inventors of these games, the most successful in the history of the industry, never spent a day behind a table:

Good list. I'll add inventor name/source when known.

Three Card Poker - Derek Webb.
Ultimate Texas Hold'em - Roger Snow
Spanish 21 - ?
Let it Ride - Early ShuffleMaster Product, Bill O'Hara and company. It was originally named "Take it or Leave it," but while playing, someone blurted out, "aww - just Let it [the bet] Ride!"
4 Card Poker - Roger Snow, formerly a journalist, from the East Coast.
Texas Hold'em Bonus - Paul Omohundro, former exec with Mikohn and DEQ
21+3 - Derek Webb.
Mississippi Stud - ?
Blackjack Switch/Free Bet Blackjack - Geoff H.
Fortune Pai Gow Poker - Sam Terosian and Fred Wolf were owners of the Bell Club (card club) in L.A who came up with PGP.... "Fortune" is SHFL's tm.
Lucky Ladies - Rob Saucier, now CEO of Galaxy Gaming
Crazy 4 Poker - Roger Snow
Dragon Bonus - Roger Snow
Caribbean Stud Poker - Early Shufflemaster
Perfect Pairs - ?
Casino War - ?!
Casino Hold'em Poker*

*Not sure if Mr. Casino Games ever dealt; he sure handles chips like a mechanic.

[as quoted...]The only games whose inventors I'm certain had dealing experience are EZ Pai Gow, EZ Baccarat and Fire Bet.
Add 'High Card Flush,' a new game hit, by Mike P., a crap dealer.

My first career of 20 years (after college/Army) was in data processing in New York City. I then dealt for 7 years, with EZ Pai Gow getting its first install 4 years ago, when I had dealt for 3+ years. While dealing nights, I also worked for DEQ in the day time. I believe if I hadn't had some technical/executive experience, I would not have worked as an exec during/after dealing.

TJ Tejada (of EZ Bacc) was a dealer.

The Fire bet guys I don't know.

And yeah, while dealing helps a little, it is NOT crucial in becoming a game designer. (It helps with the game protection end and the dealing procedure end of game design - after you have a design, but not with game concept germination. Straight up gambling from the player's side helps more!)

Quote: McDemon

To suggest that being a "dealer" (which is not the only position in a casino) has no positive correlation to expertise as a games developer is like saying, you don't have to know medicine to be a medical physician. its just a silly thing to say.

Your analogy is fraudulent. All physicians must know medicine in order to practice it; however, as I've shown, game developers do not need to know how to deal cards or count down a rack if they want to be successful.

Again, when it comes to the expertise of Dr. Jacobsen or whether or not all the games I mentioned are indeed "new," i appeal to the people on this board who truly understand this business.

Quote: Paigowdan

Good list. I'll add inventor name.

Three Card Poker - Derek Webb.
Ultimate Texas Hold'em - Roger Snow w/ Derek Webb.
Spanish 21 - ?
Let it Ride - Early ShuffleMaster Product, Bill O'Hara and company. It was originally named "Take it or Leave it," but while playing, someone blurted out, "aww - Let it [the bet] Ride!"
4 Card Poker - Roger Snow, formerly a journalist, from the East Coast.
Texas Hold'em Bonus - Paul Omohundro, former exec with Mikohn and DEQ
21+3 - Derek Webb.
Mississippi Stud - ?
Blackjack Switch/Free Bet Blackjack - Geoff H.
Fortune Pai Gow Poker - Sam Terosian and Fred Wolf were owners of the Bell Club (card club) in L.A.... "Fortune" is SHFL's tm.
Lucky Ladies - Rob Saucier, now CEO of Galaxy Gaming
Crazy 4 Poker - Roger Snow
Dragon Bonus - Roger Snow
Caribbean Stud Poker - Early Shufflemaster
Perfect Pairs - ?
Casino War - ?!
Casino Hold'em Poker*

*Not sure if Mr. Casino Games ever dealt; he sure handles chips like a mechanic.

[as quoted...]The only games whose inventors I'm certain had dealing experience are EZ Pai Gow, EZ Baccarat and Fire Bet.
Add 'High Card Flush,' a new game hit, by Mike P., a crap dealer.

My first career of 20 years (after college/Army) was in data processing in New York City. I then dealt for 7 years, with EZ Pai Gow getting its first install 4 years ago, when I had dealt for 3 years. While dealing nights, I also worked for DEQ in the day time.
TJ Tejada (of EZ Bacc) was a dealer.
The Fire bet guys I don't know.

But yeah, while dealing helps a little, it is NOT crucial. (It helps with the game protection and dealing procedures end of game design after you have a design, but not with game concept germination. Straight up gambling from the player's side helps more!)

I am going to have to disagree with you, game protection and dealing procedures could be the difference in getting your game in. Yes there are many dealers who don't know what day it is and know less than the punters about the games, plenty of them. But the serious croupiers (I count myself amongst that small percentage), those that take an interest in the games and players have a substantial advantage over the run of the mill game developer and also are better equipped than anyone outside the business about casino games. It simply a fact. In many cases it is exactly that sort of person who going to determine whether the game/sidebet is going to be taken on beyond the trial, so having this knowledge before/during game development is gold dust... coming from gaming yourself, I am surprised you don't appreciate this fact.

Quote: Thermos

Again, when it comes to the expertise of Dr. Jacobsen or whether or not all the games I mentioned are indeed "new," appeal to the people on this board who truly understand this business.

I can't see too many people on this forum actually playing regularly any of the games/sidebets you mentioned. If people want to see Dr Jacobsen as some gaming God thats absolutely fine. Having read his game design book, I can't agree with them, and I am allowed to.

The most prolific and successful designer listed here (R. Snow) was never a pit critter, dealer, or floorman, and that we have to admit.
His background prior to "this life" was that of a Journalist.

As for Eliot Jacobson, I have attended his game protection seminars, and he is spot on in knowledge on the gritty details of game protection.

I can fill in some blanks.

Mississippi Stud was invented by former SHFL CEO Mark Yoseloff.
Casino War was invented by Dave Schugar, who did have casino ops experience.
Fire Bet was invented by Perry Stassi.
Perfect Pairs was invents by John Wicks.
Caribbean Stud Poker was invented by either Danny Jones or David Sklansky.
Spanish 21 was invented by, I believe, Richard Lofink.
Texas Holdem Bonus was co-invented by Eric Abbot, who is now a lawyer with SHFL.

Quote: McDemon

I can't see too many people on this forum actually playing regularly any of the games/sidebets you mentioned. If people want to see Dr Jacobsen as some gaming God thats absolutely fine. Having read his game design book, I can't agree with them, and I am allowed to.

Never said he was a god. You challenged the man's expertise because he lacked "gaming experience." In your eyes the man is no different than anyone on this forum. My feeling is that if you asked the people on this forum who know what they're talking about, they would feel differently.

Quote: Pacman

I can fill in some blanks.

Mississippi Stud was invented by former SHFL CEO Mark Yoseloff.
Casino War was invented by Dave Schugar, who did have casino ops experience.
Fire Bet was invented by Perry Stassi.
Perfect Pairs was invents by John Wicks.
Caribbean Stud Poker was invented by either Danny Jones or David Sklansky.
Spanish 21 was invented by, I believe, Richard Lofink.
Texas Holdem Bonus was co-invented by Eric Abbot, who is now a lawyer with SHFL.

John Wicks was a professional blackjack player in Australia.

"Lucky Lucky" is another top game that was invented by Franklin Daines of Alberta, Canada. He runs a casino but I don't think he ever worked as a dealer or floor supervisor.

We have a few ex-dealers on staff. They are helpful in ironing out game procedures.

I've got to add one, or some, advantages that dealing experience gives on game design, - with a note that it applies not to game concept creation, but moreso to game viability AFTER you get the "eureka" idea.

Game protection on a new game can make or break the game. And dealers, at least those who really apply themselves, KNOW what shots a player may or may not make on a game - in real game play that is coming - to defeat or defraud a game.

Seeing such things as the order of cards dealt - as in not dealing cards until they're needed by the players - prevents them from being hole-carded or sorted by these players, - and you think about this with a dealer's eye during the prototypes of the game "next step" designs. Card-counting and the like are also considered, certainly by me.

Now, this is a part of the post-germination clean-up, right after the new and basic game spec, but this is important. I will say this detail can also be handled by many others at a game manufacturer. But when a designer can do this and apply this to his own game, so much the better.

Quote: Paigowdan

I've got to add one, or some, advantages that dealing experience gives on game design, - with a note that it applies not to game concept creation, but moreso to game viability AFTER you get the "eureka" idea.

Game protection on a new game can make or break the game. And dealers, at least those who really apply themselves, KNOW what shots a player may or may not make on a game - in real game play that is coming - to defeat or defraud a game.

Seeing such things as the order of cards dealt - as in not dealing cards until they're needed by the players - prevents them from being hole-carded or sorted by these players, - and you think about this with a dealer's eye during the prototypes of the game "next step" designs. Card-counting and the like are also considered, certainly by me.

Now, this is a part of the post-germination clean-up, right after the new and basic game spec, but this is important. I will say this detail can also be handled by many others at a game manufacturer. But when a designer can do this and apply this to his own game, so much the better.

Hear Hear, from the right quarter.

Quote: Pacman

I can fill in some blanks.


Casino War was invented by Dave Schugar, who did have casino ops experience.

Yes and he should be taken outside and shot, what a shocker, I can't believe this can even be considered a game!

Makes a lot of money for us. They love it in Macau.

Quote: Pacman

Makes a lot of money for us. They love it in Macau.

Come on Roger, I appreciate you HAVE to say that but......

You keep score by dollars. And by that measure, Casino War is one of the best specialty table games ever.

Quote: Pacman

You keep score by dollars. And by that measure, Casino War is one of the best specialty table games ever.

Did Sylvester Stallone ever have to apologize for the success of the Rocky and Rambo series? Granted, it wasn't a Merchant Ivory production, but he made no bones about success. It worked on its own terms in the film industry.

Casino War's success surprised me, just too simple, too Vegas Vacation. - But hey, game design is not a fine art.

Quote: Paigowdan

Casino War's success surprised me, just too simple, too Vegas Vacation. - But hey, game design is not a fine art.

No, it would appear not to be...I will keep working on it

Quote: Paigowdan

Casino War's success surprised me, just too simple, too Vegas Vacation. - But hey, game design is not a fine art.

The success should be given to whomever at SHFL to put it on the floor. Obviously, if Dan or McDemon were in charge, this would not see the light of day.

Quote: UCivan

The success should be given to whomever at SHFL to put it on the floor. Obviously, if Dan or McDemon were in charge, this would not see the light of day.

You don't know that. Actually, neither do I...Your statement may be very true.....Do know that I check out every game submitted to Galaxy, to see every merit that's present..........but even with playing Casino War, a part of me would have said "NAAH...just too childish, too simple, too Chevy Chase, a temptation to use the derogatory 'R' word - IT JUST WON'T SELL, ARE YOU SERIOUS??!!....." It's BulletBall #2!

- but there is no arguing with its success. Hey, I get it wrong sometimes. I would have bet that I would have failed Casino War. I would have given the game designer a pat on the back and a Rosary......I used to work on a dice crew with a dealer who also dealt at City Center, telling me he had a guy bet $5,000 a hand for HOURS all night long on Casino War; I was dumbfounded, flummoxed. Had to use that word.

If a prop bet degenerate like ME thought it was just to freaking simple to possibly work....

Kind of like being a film studio executive who rejected The Wizard of Oz, telling the screenwriter "GET that silly-ass children's poop story the Hell out of here!!" They got MGM to sign it? With Victor Fleming to direct Judy Garland, Frank Morgan, and Margaret Hamilton? Yeah, right! Like it'll make millions, and become an eternal classic....kiddie stuff, I tell you, tiddlywinks.....(doing my best EvenBob impression...)

It is the casino version of the Hula-hoop ("a big plastic ring") or the Frisbee ("a 10 cent plastic dish, for Chrissake!..."), so the argument that "There is just NOTHING to this aside having FUN" is its saving grace. This is Bullet Ball's argument also.

Who would of thought this or seen this? Roger at SHFL, apparently. Could have been an executive VP at Sundance or Hasbro, too. How Casino War did not become BulletBall #2 amazes me.

Especially as to how this was seen by Roger.

Dan (may be Pacman too), Having seen the success example of Casino War, are you adjusting the way you evaluate games for Galaxy (or SHFL)? No one can be right all the time.

Quote: UCivan

Dan (may be Pacman too), Having seen the success example of Casino War, are you adjusting the way you evaluate games for Galaxy (or SHFL)? No one can be right all the time.

Yes and no.
There are certain standards of "adult play and entertainment" - of which gaming is a prime example.

There will be, from time to time, a bizarrely and ridiculously simple game presented to us that will be dismissed by adult gaming "gatekeeper" experts (such as me and Roger), as something too childishly simple or foolish, - to possibly succeed in the adult gaming market. Surprises happen.

I or he may say "If it is Hasbro or Mattle level daffy or simplistic, (not at all meaning to be cold here), we do have to dismiss the effort out of hand as too childish or simplistic for our casino operators' clientele."

As for War, I would have rejected on the first, second, and third glance. But something unknown may have compelled Roger to say, "Give this a chance, it is small expense for a table layout and a one-state approval - and you never know!"

I will say that War is a common game known from our childhood that is familiar, fun, and comforting, and so it may be to many gamblers, but casino gambling is of a more competitive nature than family games, - and with very rare exceptions.

If Roger had seen that fun and transferable element when no one else had - and that he had caught that in this game, (and I know he had), then I salute him. And I certainly do.

I have seen submitted to me just fantastic casino versions of Cribbage, Go (Roulez Bourre), and other Family/Childhood games that were superbly refined as casino games with perfect math reports (usually from Charles Mousseau), and dealing procedures (and these inventors hired professional casino dealers to verify procedures), with sad and apologetic rejection letters from me and my boss, Ken, - and simply done as gaming business reasons: it belongs at Mattle or Hasbro.

Fantastic gaming jobs done on family and childhood games, converted into casino games, are often unfeasible as casino games. Saddest rejection letters to write. Happily, some became I-phone "fun" apps, also with some having the potential to become board games, and I do recommend to "look there." With the work that many had done, they themselves already know this.

But casino War surprised me. We all may have an inner "John Candy" or Chevy Chase, and it may be a large casino tourist audience.

Maybe all I saw were the serious gamblers, the recreational gamblers, the local gamblers, the shot-takers, and saintly professionals out on the town, but Roger may have picked up on the "big kid John Candy" gambler.

The new "Big Six."

But, no, our market plan is not adjusted because of casino War being the new big six. A curio that just happened.

Casino War is a good example of where "keeping an open mind" can sometimes pay off.

And I thank this forum for informing me of the hilarity of "Bulletball".

A really open mind. A lightening strike does count.
My suspicion is that Roger hadn't seen or subscribes to the attitudes in bulletball. Boy, as a result, did he get lucky on Casino War saying "yes." But I took it as a lesson.

Roger goes Jet Clampit on a game hit, and he strikes oil, good for him, but it ain't Connecticut. Actually, he was brilliant and he caught it. Casino War worked.

Me, I gotta bust a drill bit.

:)

Quote: triglomane

And I thank this forum for informing me of the hilarity of "Bulletball".

It was both funny and sad. Funny from a distance, and sadder closer up.
The triage involved in this business is frightening. It is VERY much like that, but without the Angel investors talking to people like they're ever fools or idiots for trying. Work hard enough, smart enough, you may get that Royal, but no guarantee. When we say do not give your day job because it looks difficult, we are not spiting in a face on television for show. Any game inventor may give up some cable TV time to try this project, but not your daytime job or marriage until you have 60 tables installed. And if you had never tried to get here, it would have been worse just watching more cable TV on the couch in a trailer/condo/apartment in your life, working for somebody else, giving up.

You try really hard in your off time, to make this gambling life your prime time.

Somebody has got to make it. It might be you if you might make it so. Operate on the basis that there is room from three more, and you are in, if you try.

And try Really hard.

As for keeping an open mind - and to keep going forward, to keep hacking away at it, - is really on the inventor to succeed. If I see something really good, well-prepared, and impressive, I will green light it and support it at Galaxy, and so does Roger at Shufflemaster; it gets signed, sold and leased, and on the gamble that it may succeed that the gamblers will like it - and for us all. But it is not in our hands totally; we exhibit good faith in it. Ultimately, gamblers approve it or kill it. We show your work in the best possible light, on the gamble that it is accepted and that it succeeds for us all.

If you don't make it, then you lost more not trying and just watching TV in your life's time. If you want to succeed big time, there is little spare time in your life.

Quote: UCivan

The success should be given to whomever at SHFL to put it on the floor. Obviously, if Dan or McDemon were in charge, this would not see the light of day.

You're absolutely right, I would be ashamed to put my name to Casino war. Its not a casino game, its cut the cards. I think developers should be aiming a bit higher. Having said that, if its only about the money, then who can argue its been successful. Whilst I accept that up until now casino game development has not been about fine art, games that have a simple elegance with guile and depth are what I feel developers should be aiming for. To use an analogy, look at angry birds, came from nowhere, simple and elegant gameplay..worldwide smash. Thats doesn't stop yet another sequel from a licenced movie or sport racking up millions in sales.

As a developer I would rather be more like Rovio than EA. As I said, if its just about the money, and thats all that matters, Casino war everytime.

Quote: tringlomane

Casino War is a good example of where "keeping an open mind" can sometimes pay off.

And I thank this forum for informing me of the hilarity of "Bulletball".

Casino war is not a game the UK has warmed to, Roger says its big in Macau. Being based in the UK I am amazed the game is played anywhere, amazed. If I had evaluated Casino War, I would say no chance, and in the UK that would have been correct.

It is clear that some games fair better in different jurisdictions, Craps is non existent in Europe, I don't know about Asia but popular in the US. Punto is massive in the Far East, has a following in London, but nowhere else in the UK and I don't think it does that much in the US but again I don't know.

In evaluating a game, knowing the various markets seems to me the most important. For me, and I can only state for the UK market, games like casino war and 3cp have made it harder to get good games in because the casinos are so apathetic, to coin a phrase I have heard often, "not another load of shit", and that sadly makes getting games in all the more difficult.

Quote: McDemon

As I said, if its just about the money, and thats all that matters, Casino war everytime.

Most of the forum does generally agree with you with this game being too simplistic overall since most of us love gambling smartly. But I definitely wouldn't feel shame if I would have invented this game, and it became a moderate success in the US. Vegas/Macau helps this market too, because it really is one of the ultimate "intro to table games" game. You can't argue that. I would think many players often move on to other table games after this.

Quote: tringlomane

Most of the forum does generally agree with you with this game being too simplistic overall since most of us love gambling smartly. But I definitely wouldn't feel shame if I would have invented this game, and it became a moderate success in the US. Vegas/Macau helps this market too, because it really is one of the ultimate "intro to table games" game. You can't argue that. I would think many players often move on to other table games after this.

I suppose another way of looking at it is a simple game being modestly successful could be used to fund a better game later, in those circumstances, I would have to say it would be worth it.

Quote: McDemon

I suppose another way of looking at it is a simple game being modestly successful could be used to fund a better game later, in those circumstances, I would have to say it would be worth it.

I think so. I do appreciate your thoughts of good gambling integrity, McDemon, but unfortunately the industry as a whole cares much less about that, imo. It's more about asses in the seats than anything and creating a game "fun enough" where they will comeback a handful of times. So a moderate house edge game plus higher variance is a very nice angle (ala Ultimate Texas Holdem). But since it's about 3:30am where I am from, I need to call it for the night. Go Andy Murray! :)

Quote: tringlomane

I think so. I do appreciate your thoughts of good gambling integrity, McDemon, but unfortunately the industry as a whole cares much less about that, imo. It's more about asses in the seats than anything and creating a game "fun enough" where they will comeback a handful of times. So a moderate house edge game plus higher variance is a very nice angle (ala Ultimate Texas Holdem). But since it's about 3:30am where I am from, I need to call it for the night. Go Andy Murray! :)

You're not wrong, I have been in the business for a long time and seen the changes, many for the worst. Casinos are businesses, they couldn't give a monkey what the game is if it turns over lots of dough and they care considerably less about the "quality" of games than I do.

Greetings, guilty as charged. Allow me to give you a little history on Casino War. It was around 1993 and I was the Director of Casino Ops at the Sante Fe Hotel Casino in Las Vegas. Caribbean Stud had made it out of the islands and was the rage. We had installed recently it. A couple of years prior Red Dog had a glimpse of the big time and it got me thinking about new games myself. I then created the "Dragon Hand" on Pai Gow Poker but did not protect it. Years later Joe "Ya Ya" Awada improved it as a community hand. I know Ya and he is very creative to his credit. Meanwhile a salesman from a company called Bet Technology comes to the Sante Fe to pitch me on adding Royal Match to my BJ games. The fellow was a nice guy but I could tell he had never worked in a pit. I was struck that someone outside of gaming could be more creative than us in gaming. My words to him were: "Why should I buy your game when I have one of my own?". I explained him the general idea of the game of war which at its initial stage involved one shoe squaring off against another shoe. Obviously this would have a weakness to counters but that is how early this began. A week later the owner of the company flew down from Reno and asked me if I had done a math analysis - no. Had I done a patent or copyright search - No. Had I designed a layout - No. So he countered with, let us do that for you and lets partner up. I agreed. As the game developed I was instrumental in the take, pay, & place procedures while they hired Greg Flowers for the layout art work. We all collaborated on the tie rules to determine the theoretical hold. We knew the game was lightening fast so we estimated that you could lower the limit and still have the same yield - action on the money. Hence a $5 Casino War Bet would roughly equal a $15 Blackjack Bet - which at the time was a pretty seductive alternative. My deal with my employers, then and subsequently, was that game creation was not part of my job description and they had no objection to my endeavors. The proviso was that wherever I worked the game could go in for free so there would be no self serving conflict of interest. I am proud to say that the game always outperformed the house average.

Obviously the game is very simple and is essentially a one card poker game. But the game has some quintessential elements to it that are the foundation for its modest claim to fame. It is easy for players to learn & understand and the public has found it fun. Since its origin the hold percentage has been tweaked. The games speed makes it compelling, volatile, and profitable.

Bet Technology later sold the game to Shufflemaster and I followed suit for my share. One of the reasons I sold was because I had another game in the works titled "Tug-O-War" which expanded upon the basic war game with a puck moving back and forth in the direction of the side that had the highest card. Players did not receive individual cards but could bet on which side -Left or Right received the higher card PLUS which far end the puck would eventually reach. The latter was call the Tug-O-War portion of the game. The unique feature of this game is that as the puck changed position the odds would change as well.Hence the players could take or lay as much as 3 to1 on which side would ultimately win the Tug-O-War. Occasionally spread betting opportunities would arise as well allowing players to hedge their bet and have a positive value regardless which side ultimately won the Tug-O-War. The game had 2 unsuccessful trials to my dismay. While I believe the game is compelling it is challenging to manage so many betting options for 6 players on a live table game.

You can play a pretty nice demo of the game at www.equiytgaming.com and shoot me again if you like.

Note: In Southeast Asia Casino War has a knock off variation that is hugely successful titled Tiger - Dragon. The game handles ties differently by ranking the suits.

As I began, I am guilty as charged so fire away. But remember, there are exceptional games that will never see the light of day...

Quote: Creative1

I invented casino war.

Welcome to the forum! And for the record, I think your game is awesome!

+1 on the welcome to Creative! Your actual experience with bringing a concept from inception to significant installs and ultimate sale to SHFL is what many in the inventor's corner are striving to achieve.

And FWIW, game development isn't fine art....it is a business and in business you keep score with $$!

Quote: Creative1

But remember, there are exceptional games that will never see the light of day...

I don't know if I want to hug you or kick you in the nuts, kick you in the nuts is the more compelling feeling ;)

Quote: teddys

Welcome to the forum! And for the record, I think your game is awesome!

Mate you need to see someone about that, I know a good therapist if your stuck

Quote: McDemon

I don't know if I want to hug you or kick you in the nuts, kick you in the nuts is the more compelling feeling ;)

I gave Creative1 the heads up that his name/game was mentioned herein in case he wanted to chime in. Creative1 has a lifetime of casino experience and would be a real asset to this board. No need to be rude, mate...

Quote: jon

I gave Creative1 the heads up that his name/game was mentioned herein in case he wanted to chime in. Creative1 has a lifetime of casino experience and would be a real asset to this board. No need to be rude, mate...

Not sure I was rude, lighten up!

OK then, no worries

Quote: McDemon

Mate you need to see someone about that, I know a good therapist if your stuck

Oh, I would never play the game myself and I think it's terribly boring after five minutes. But the concept is simple, well-implemented, and like Roger said, dollars are how we keep score. In that respect, it is awesome.

Quote: tringlomane

Most of the forum does generally agree with you with this game being too simplistic overall since most of us love gambling smartly. But I definitely wouldn't feel shame if I would have invented this game, and it became a moderate success in the US. Vegas/Macau helps this market too, because it really is one of the ultimate "intro to table games" game. You can't argue that. I would think many players often move on to other table games after this.

Players move on to advanced games, yes, - but it is the more simple games (like War and Blackjack) that breaks the ice for a person to become a casino table games player in the first place. (I think this is a beautiful process.) Few people jump on Craps, Ultimate Texas Hold 'em or Pai Gow as a first game straight away, - but they do so with War and Blackjack, with Blackjack offering enough strategy to have them stay with the game. And even War has its aficionados.

Games like Casino War "create" the table games players, and the mix of richer games keep them coming back.

Quote: McDemon

In evaluating a game, knowing the various markets seems to me the most important. For me, and I can only state for the UK market, games like casino war and 3cp have made it harder to get good games in because the casinos are so apathetic, to coin a phrase I have heard often, "not another load of shit", and that sadly makes getting games in all the more difficult.

A Casino manager might think "Ug! - not another load of shit" when "Johnny New Game Designer" shows up pitching his own baby, but these casino guys do look, see, and listen to a distributor's sales rep or the veteran designer who knows casino pit operations, the needs and markets of a casino operator, and what would fit in and work. They know that a distributor knows his wares

It may seem unfair, but there are walls holding back the small unknown game designer which won't encumber distributors. The casino manager is not the small game designer's friend, - he's a businessman who may not have time for you, - when he does have time for Dean, Lori, and Bobby from Galaxy, and Roger & company from Shufflemaster. There is something to be said by letting those who know how to prep and sell your game for you to do so, when you see that the going gets rough when all alone and unknown. And it is a rude business, primarily because it is a business. Stephen King and Tom Clancy didn't get on top of the writers' heap by going door-to-door, and even if a lone designer gets the ear of a Table Games Director and an install, what then? You don't buy a paper mill or enter the Sales & Marketing field when you're a novelist - or a game designer.

You won't hear Roger or me or anyone who reviews games for a distributor or manufacturer say "ug! - not another load of crap!" (You will hear a Table Games Director say that, but he may be the wrong apathetic person to pitch). We are all looking for the next Three Card Poker and welcome submissions, and give honest "Yes, No, and needs work here" answers. No Bullet Ball Beatdowns (not even when we're talking about a competitors product that's struggling. We've all had doozies we thought would work, but for the grace of.....)

Yes, getting games in is all the more difficult now, it is competitive as all hell. It's a game of numbers that can wear out your shoes and your wallet. You can try, or you can give up.

Quote: Paigowdan

A Casino manager might think "Ug! - not another load of shit"

Dan no one says that to me, I might add. And remember, its the staff that ultimately have to deliver your game, and "dealer attitude" can often be a factor, more so with the experienced staff; they tend to be the most cynical.

You're correct that established company's like shfl and GG might hold a bit more sway (although not in the UK) so that can help.

Quote: McDemon

For me, and I can only state for the UK market, games like casino war and 3cp have made it harder to get good games in because the casinos are so apathetic, to coin a phrase I have heard often, "not another load of shit", and that sadly makes getting games in all the more difficult.

TCP has made it difficult for other games in the UK because it is so f'ing good. It did the same thing in the US. Ever wonder what happened to Caribbean Stud? Three Card Poker ate it! Some people can't see the forest for the trees and when it comes to games like TCP or Casino War, some can't see the brilliance for the simplicity.

Quote: teddys

Oh, I would never play the game myself and I think it's terribly boring after five minutes. But the concept is simple, well-implemented, and like Roger said, dollars are how we keep score. In that respect, it is awesome.

I can't argue with the box office

Quote: Thermos

TCP has made it difficult for other games in the UK because it is so f'ing good. It did the same thing in the US. Ever wonder what happened to Caribbean Stud? Three Card Poker ate it! Some people can't see the forest for the trees and when it comes to games like TCP or Casino War, some can't see the brilliance for the simplicity.

Now I know your just being provocative, yeah good one!

Quote: Thermos

Ever wonder what happened to Caribbean Stud? Three Card Poker ate it!

I dunno if I would go quite that far. Let it Ride, Mississippi Stud, and Ultimate Texas Holdem has also helped knock it down a few pegs.

And welcome Creative1!

Caribbean Stud is not dead. In fact, with more than 250 placements, it remains one of the top games in the industry.

The game reaches its zenith in the early 2000s. In my opinion, these games each took a bite out of its bum:

1. Three Card Poker
2. Four Card Poker
3. Crazy 4 Poker
4. Texas Shootout
5. Let it Ride
6. Boston 5 Stud Poker

UTH and Mississippi Stud came along well after Caribbean Stud started to decline.

Quote: Pacman

....They love it in Macau.

Roger, would never have guessed Casino War would be big in Macau.

I didn't think that the card game War was big in China/Asia. I understand the familiarity aspect in the US, as so many people played War with their siblings/friends as children. That clearly helps it in the US and its simplicity, etc.

But do Chinese/Asian kids play War as a card game growing up? Or is the popularity of Casino War in Macau have to do with the fact that the game requires no skill/player decisions, just a luck factor (like Baccarat) and those types of games are popular with Chinese/Asian Gamblers?

Quote: Paradigm

Or is the popularity of Casino War in Macau have to do with the fact that the game requires no skill/player decisions, just a luck factor (like Baccarat) and those types of games are popular with Chinese/Asian Gamblers?

In my experience Asian players actually prefer slightly more complicated games than the rest, that is why I am surprised it is a hit in Macau but wahey if its working....

How many installs of Casino War are there in the Asian region?

I believe Baccarat is the most popular game in Macau and I don't consider Baccarat as a "slightly more complicated game"......it is a coin flip disguised by an elaborate dealing procedure, mythical trend following and a static set of drawing rules. Put you money down and watch what happens, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

One common theme between Baccarat and Casino War is in the fact that the player has no input in the outcome of the bet, it is purely fate/fortune that will decide the outcome.

deleted

Quote: McDemon

Now I know your just being provocative, yeah good one!

Three Card Poker is by far the most successful carnival game in history. You have to understand that when it came out (mid-1990s), it changed the paradigm for a poker-based table game. Unlike Let it Ride or Caribbean Stud, it didn't have any coin slots or betting sensors and it didn't have a "life-changing" jackpot. The top award was only 40 to 1. The game was--and still is--a seamless and flawless execution of the Ante-Call betting structure, with an optional bonus bet that actually hits 1 out of every 4 hands.