Dealer First Blackjack

Quote: 21Revolution

Looking at the best way to implement a change of rules does not equal butchering a game. It is simply a different game. Switch and Free Bet use a rule that players accept. Again, you are arguing against variations that have had success. All Switch is saying is that he considered other ways to create this style of game, and determined that players would accept a push 22 in exchange for the fun and feature rich version he has created. There really is nothing to argue about here- it is proven that you can create variations like this and there is a market for them.

Just a note- the more players start to recognize the game can be changed, the more it opens up acceptance to all game ideas, including concepts that may not be based on existing games. So, be glad if these games are finding homes and having success. In the end it opens up the door for casinos to try your game.

Sorry but I don't consider any of the blackjack variations to be success, making a modest living maybe, not what I would consider a success. Actually I was discussing with Jeff, how he might consider losing the stand 22 rules which has stopped the game being a success IMO and looking at perhaps other areas where HE could be varied to allow for the switch ingame. Actually, the 3rd suggestion, charging players to switch has an appeal, and you heard it hear first remember. A nominal amount could be charged to switch your cards when its beneficial which could perhaps allow for the stand 22 to be removed ( I would have to check the mathematics). Players lose their stake on 22, dealers stands on 22, its overtly unfair, so even the thickest of punters can moan about it, hence reducing the success of the game. BJ Switch is a better game then standard BJ, get rid of the stand on 22 and it would do a lot better, IMO

Quote: McDemon

Quote: MrCasinoGames

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Hi McDemon,
I forgot to ask you how is your Switch Match?

By the way here is 2 of my old Domino-Style games ©2005:
Mathematical Analysis = Michael Shackleford (The Wizard of Odds)
Lo-Ball Baccarat™ and 3-Card Pai-Gow™.

Quote: MrCasinoGames

Hi McDemon,
I forgot to ask you how is your Switch Match?

By the way here is 2 of my old Domino-Style games (©2005): Lo-Ball Baccarat™ and 3-Card Pai-Gow™.

Still on trial, ends August, busy doing the online version, that should be done end of year/early next year, thats why I asked you about the arrangements you had with yours online stuff.

Have these games been successful?Lo-Ball Baccarat™ and 3-Card Pai-Gow™.

Quote: McDemon

Quote: MrCasinoGames

Hi McDemon,
I forgot to ask you how is your Switch Match?

By the way here is 2 of my old Domino-Style games (©2005): Lo-Ball Baccarat™ and 3-Card Pai-Gow™.

Still on trial, ends August, busy doing the online version, that should be done end of year/early next year, thats why I asked you about the arrangements you had with yours online stuff.

Have these games been successful?Lo-Ball Baccarat™ and 3-Card Pai-Gow™.

No, not successful yet and I have more new games coming out (about 10 per year) that is why I have 100+ Games.

To be successful Online is not easy too.

Best Luck with you game.

Quote: MrCasinoGames

To be successful Online is not easy too.

Best Luck with you game.

Of course nothing is easy in this business, however, we are taking a different route , in that we are developing the software (don't have to convince a software house to take a chance!) and we will present a online version that will be triple-A quality and offer a solution to the "trust" issue holding back online gambling. Watch this space.

Interestingly, you appear to go for quantity, why not spend time on 1 or 2 games, get them up to a very high standard?

Quote: McDemon

Sorry but I don't consider any of the blackjack variations to be success, making a modest living maybe, not what I would consider a success. Actually I was discussing with Jeff, how he might consider losing the stand 22 rules which has stopped the game being a success IMO and looking at perhaps other areas where HE could be varied to allow for the switch ingame. Actually, the 3rd suggestion, charging players to switch has an appeal, and you heard it hear first remember. A nominal amount could be charged to switch your cards when its beneficial which could perhaps allow for the stand 22 to be removed ( I would have to check the mathematics). Players lose their stake on 22, dealers stands on 22, its overtly unfair, so even the thickest of punters can moan about it, hence reducing the success of the game. BJ Switch is a better game then standard BJ, get rid of the stand on 22 and it would do a lot better, IMO

Do we have to start up the englishman quotes again?!

Of course you could charge an amount to switch. The benefit of a fee is that other hands aren't affected by the added ability to switch. My guess is it likely isn't an easily administered fee since it would have to be based on the size of the main bet. Plus you then have people considering when it is "worth it" to pay for switching. All this would slow down the game- and of course make the ability to switch not seem as advantageous.

It comes down to having a direct offsetting factor or an indirect offsetting factor. There are variety of ways to achieve it, but you have to balance perception with speed of administration.

Most games have tried to get around a concept of paying "a fee".

As stated through this thread, the push 22 rule seems to be working better in the Free Bet variation with a single main bet. Perhaps that game will achieve a level of success you can't look down upon. Only time will tell.

Quote: McDemon

Of course nothing is easy in this business, however, we are taking a different route , in that we are developing the software (don't have to convince a software house to take a chance!) and we will present a online version that will be triple-A quality and offer a solution to the "trust" issue holding back online gambling. Watch this space.

Interestingly, you appear to go for quantity, why not spend time on 1 or 2 games, get them up to a very high standard?

I don't go for quantity, it just happened that way, as soon as I got a good game a better one comes along.
That is why I forget the old Games and go for the new once (Better Games), and that is also why I end-up with 100+ good games.

P.S. I do have some Very Good Games out there (See Below):

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Quote: 21Revolution

Do we have to start up the englishman quotes again?!

Of course you could charge an amount to switch. The benefit of a fee is that other hands aren't affected by the added ability to switch. My guess is it likely isn't an easily administered fee since it would have to be based on the size of the main bet. Plus you then have people considering when it is "worth it" to pay for switching. All this would slow down the game- and of course make the ability to switch not seem as advantageous.

It comes down to having a direct offsetting factor or an indirect offsetting factor. There are variety of ways to achieve it, but you have to balance perception with speed of administration.

Most games have tried to get around a concept of paying "a fee".

As stated through this thread, the push 22 rule seems to be working better in the Free Bet variation with a single main bet. Perhaps that game will achieve a level of success you can't look down upon. Only time will tell.

Actually I suspect it hasn't been done because it hasn't been thought of! The admin of a fee isn't a problem mechanically, it doesn't happen so often that it would drag the game on its speed, getting the right percentage of the bet might be tricky, I mean you have to pay to split anyway in standard BJ, no one has proposed abandoning splitting to speed the game up so I am not sure that it would have a major impact on the game's speed.

You shouldn't take my evaluation of success as looking down on other products. This doesn't take away the fact that Switch has done well or a reflection on Switch. Surely the forum is about expressing opinions. I have and will put my products up for scrutiny on this forum and people are free to say what they like. If they said, McDemon's game/s are pants, that's their opinion, providing it is based on the merits of the product. My product in the UK will probably not go on to be a live game,and has been said by Switch himself, that has something to do with the way the UK market works. Given my product is primarily for the online market, it isn't the end of the world if it doesn't make the UK market. MrCasinoGames, has a plethora of games, none have made it into UK casino market or could be considered successful. Brutal maybe, but the truth. I know he has done better live and online in other countries and I applaud him for that. The UK market is bigger than the entire European market, there are more casinos in the UK than Europe put together and yet it is probably the hardest market in the world to get into. House money bombed, I fear Top 3 will probably go the same way. I was in a casino the other day and saw Roulette Link bets by Mr Casino Games, I asked the croupiers about the bet, what's the action, "nobody plays it" came the answer, "it gets in the way when we are clearing the layout". For me, I would be pissed if the dealers were saying that procedurally I had overlooked that element because its a reason not to take in beyond the trial aside from the lack of interest in the bet from the players.

For me, success is about business, not personal Kudos. I couldn't give a monkey about who made it. Now some might be happy to throw out 100 of sidebets/games and hope that one or two hit the jackpot or build their portfolio of games with modest successes here and there, that's fine. My approach is to focus on one product, make every element of it perfect, procedure, security, speed, ease of play, small HE etc, fully test it BEFORE bringing to the industry.

I may come across as a very harsh critic but I am the hardest on my own product/s. If you want real success, that is what you have to be. Delusions are for others not for me.

Quote: McDemon

Actually I suspect it hasn't been done because it hasn't been thought of!

See my Top Draw Blackjack® below:

Patent Pending ©2010 Stephen Au-Yeung. All rights reserved.
Mathematical Analysis = Cindy Liu (House Edge 6-Decks: UK-0.97%, US-0.67%)


1. Each Player makes a Blackjack-bet.

2. Dealer deals two cards face up to each Player one card to himself face down.

3. Each Player has the option of changing his second card if his first two-card make a hard total of 12 or higher by making a Draw-bet which is equal to his Blackjack-bet.

4. After the changing option the hand is played as normal (Stand, Hit, Double-down or Split).

5. After all Players have acted; the Dealer deals a second card to himself and changes that card for a new card from the shoe if his two-card point total is a hard 12-17.

6. The Dealer hits until his hand total reaches 17 or higher.

Quote: MrCasinoGames

See my Top Draw Blackjack® below:

Patent Pending ©2010 Stephen Au-Yeung. All rights reserved.
Mathematical Analysis = Cindy Liu (House Edge 6-Decks: UK-0.97%, US-0.67%)


1. Each Player makes a Blackjack-bet.

2. Dealer deals two cards face up to each Player one card to himself face down.

3. Each Player has the option of changing his second card if his first two-card make a hard total of 12 or higher by making a Draw-bet which is equal to his Blackjack-bet.

4. After the changing option the hand is played as normal (Stand, Hit, Double-down or Split).

5. After all Players have acted; the Dealer deals a second card to himself and changes that card for a new card from the shoe if his two-card point total is a hard 12-17.

6. The Dealer hits until his hand total reaches 17 or higher.

Not quite Stephen, this is done by allowing the dealer to change as well.. As I suspected, it has not been thought of

Quote: McDemon

Quote: MrCasinoGames

See my Top Draw Blackjack® below:

Patent Pending ©2010 Stephen Au-Yeung. All rights reserved.
Mathematical Analysis = Cindy Liu (House Edge 6-Decks: UK-0.97%, US-0.67%)


1. Each Player makes a Blackjack-bet.

2. Dealer deals two cards face up to each Player one card to himself face down.

3. Each Player has the option of changing his second card if his first two-card make a hard total of 12 or higher by making a Draw-bet which is equal to his Blackjack-bet.

4. After the changing option the hand is played as normal (Stand, Hit, Double-down or Split).

5. After all Players have acted; the Dealer deals a second card to himself and changes that card for a new card from the shoe if his two-card point total is a hard 12-17.

6. The Dealer hits until his hand total reaches 17 or higher.

Not quite Stephen, this is done by allowing the dealer to change as well.. As I suspected, it has not been thought of

In Oasis Poker there is this rule:
The player has the option to switch one card of his choice for the next card in the deck. There is a fee to do this, equal to the ante wager. This fee is non-refundable.

Is it something like this, but for a Blackjack game?

Quote: McDemon

Actually I suspect it hasn't been done because it hasn't been thought of! The admin of a fee isn't a problem mechanically, it doesn't happen so often that it would drag the game on its speed, getting the right percentage of the bet might be tricky, I mean you have to pay to split anyway in standard BJ, no one has proposed abandoning splitting to speed the game up so I am not sure that it would have a major impact on the game's speed.

I did consider a 'switch' fee but decided to build the payment into the game rather than a seperate charge.

It would be very difficult to only charge for a 'switch' as some switches give a huge advantage whearas others only make a very small difference. You would have to charge the fee every hand whether the player 'switched' or not - the charge would be around 10% of the total staked and would slow the game down a little. So, a player betting $25 on 'Switch' would pay a $5 fee for the possibility of being able to 'switch'. Some players may prefer this method but I believe that the 'Push 22' has been accepted adequately and more so on 'Free Bet'.

This seems like a reasonable thread to state that while I have been in Vegas this trip, I have secured Vegas 'Free Bet' installations into:-

The Venetian
Palazzo
The Aria
New York New York
Luxor
Arizona Charlie's
Tropicana

on top of the current installations of The Mirage, Casino Royale, Eureka and The Golden Nugget.

Furthermore, The Golden Nugget are adding a 2nd table and Casino Royale are adding a 3rd table.

So, some fair to moderate success so far :-)

Quote: Switch

I did consider a 'switch' fee but decided to build the payment into the game rather than a seperate charge.

It would be very difficult to only charge for a 'switch' as some switches give a huge advantage whearas others only make a very small difference. You would have to charge the fee every hand whether the player 'switched' or not - the charge would be around 10% of the total staked and would slow the game down a little. So, a player betting $25 on 'Switch' would pay a $5 fee for the possibility of being able to 'switch'. Some players may prefer this method but I believe that the 'Push 22' has been accepted adequately and more so on 'Free Bet'.

This seems like a reasonable thread to state that while I have been in Vegas this trip, I have secured Vegas 'Free Bet' installations into:-

The Venetian
Palazzo
The Aria
New York New York
Luxor
Arizona Charlie's
Tropicana

on top of the current installations of The Mirage, Casino Royale, Eureka and The Golden Nugget.

Furthermore, The Golden Nugget are adding a 2nd table and Casino Royale are adding a 3rd table.

So, some fair to moderate success so far :-)

Congratulations on your installs.. I sincerely wish you all the best..just get rid of Push22 ;-)

Quote: McDemon

Now some might be happy to throw out 100 of sidebets/games and hope that one or two hit the jackpot or build their portfolio of games with modest successes here and there, that's fine.

Some might be happy to throw out 100 of side-bets/games?. I think some will be very happy to throw out 1 side-bets/games.

I can't even throw out 1 side-bets/games to the US market (I was lucky to get the On-line casinos with Casino Hold'em® and can't even throw another one out to them, They just don't like to trial new games and pay royalties).
I try to throw out Casino Hold'em® to the US market since 2000 and still can't get a casino to try it.

I don't think it is easy to throw out 100 of side-bets/games.
1) You must have 100+ side-bets/games to start with.
2) Getting a casinos to trial it (That is why I don't have any installation in the US).
3) Get 1 or 2 with modest successes here and there? :)

Quote: MrCasinoGames

Some might be happy to throw out 100 of side-bets/games?. I think some will be very happy to throw out 1 side-bets/games.

I can't even throw out 1 side-bets/games to the US market (I was lucky to get the On-line casinos with Casino Hold'em® and can't even throw another one out to them, They just don't like to trial new games and pay royalties).
I try to throw out Casino Hold'em® to the US market since 2000 and still can't get a casino to try it.

I don't think it is easy to throw out 100 of side-bets/games.
1) You must have 100+ side-bets/games to start with.
2) Getting a casinos to trial it (That is why I don't have any installation in the US).
3) Get 1 or 2 with modest successes here and there? :)

I think for you it is more about pride in your games, rather than the rewards.

I surprised the US market won't take on Casino Hold'em! Seems your distributor needs a kick up the ass

Quote: 21Revolution

Dealer Bluff requires software to know the dealer's hand without the physical dealer knowing the hand. I think 7-14-21 the dealer sets the hand after players have set their hand.

For the basic strategy question:

If dealer does not hit:
Hit <18

If dealer takes first hit, but does not bust:

Hit card of 6-A, Player Hits <17 (double 10,11)
Hit card of 5, Player Hits <16 (double 10,11)
Hit card of 4, Player Hits <15 (double 9,10,11)
Hit card of 2,3, Player Hits <13 (double 9,10,11)


If dealer does bust on first hit:

Hard 13-21 stays
Soft 12-16, double
Hard 8-12 double
<8 Hit

A friend of mine had a working simulator which he modified to deal the game and test the results.

Running simulations of 100,000 hands and employing the basic strategy above, it is about 2% (with 3:2 Bonus) Adding in split strategy and correcting any strategy errors it should be around 1.25%.

If the dealer shows a Bust, wouldn't you double down on all soft totals (except a BJ)? With a soft 17, there are 8 (A,2,3,4,10,J,Q,K) cards to make a hand and 5 (5,6,7,8,9) to push. (8/13)*2+(5/13)*0= 16/13 which is greater than 1 from standing.
I also think you should double a hard 7.

Quote: Switch

I did consider a 'switch' fee but decided to build the payment into the game rather than a seperate charge.

It would be very difficult to only charge for a 'switch' as some switches give a huge advantage whearas others only make a very small difference. You would have to charge the fee every hand whether the player 'switched' or not - the charge would be around 10% of the total staked and would slow the game down a little. So, a player betting $25 on 'Switch' would pay a $5 fee for the possibility of being able to 'switch'. Some players may prefer this method but I believe that the 'Push 22' has been accepted adequately and more so on 'Free Bet'.

This seems like a reasonable thread to state that while I have been in Vegas this trip, I have secured Vegas 'Free Bet' installations into:-

The Venetian
Palazzo
The Aria
New York New York
Luxor


But more importantly, what presents did you take home to your lovely daughters to make up for your time-out as DADDY ?
Arizona Charlie's
Tropicana

on top of the current installations of The Mirage, Casino Royale, Eureka and The Golden Nugget.

Furthermore, The Golden Nugget are adding a 2nd table and Casino Royale are adding a 3rd table.

So, some fair to moderate success so far :-)

Quote: Buzzard

But more importantly, what presents did you take home to your lovely daughters to make up for your time-out as DADDY ?

Hehe, thanks Buzz - So far personalised M&M's and a pair of Sketchers trainers and sandals.

More to come :-)

Quote: miplet

If the dealer shows a Bust, wouldn't you double down on all soft totals (except a BJ)? With a soft 17, there are 8 (A,2,3,4,10,J,Q,K) cards to make a hand and 5 (5,6,7,8,9) to push. (8/13)*2+(5/13)*0= 16/13 which is greater than 1 from standing.
I also think you should double a hard 7.

You are correct you would want to double on all soft hands, though if the edge is running too tight I would consider those hands immediate winners. If the edge can stand it, it would add more interest to the dealer bust event. Double after split also becomes a concern so here again a hand over 17 might need to be an immediate winner.

I really need to go study probability- anyone got a book that quickly teaches how to calculate odds with card games?

Quote: Switch

I did consider a 'switch' fee but decided to build the payment into the game rather than a seperate charge.

It would be very difficult to only charge for a 'switch' as some switches give a huge advantage whearas others only make a very small difference. You would have to charge the fee every hand whether the player 'switched' or not - the charge would be around 10% of the total staked and would slow the game down a little. So, a player betting $25 on 'Switch' would pay a $5 fee for the possibility of being able to 'switch'. Some players may prefer this method but I believe that the 'Push 22' has been accepted adequately and more so on 'Free Bet'.

This seems like a reasonable thread to state that while I have been in Vegas this trip, I have secured Vegas 'Free Bet' installations into:-

The Venetian
Palazzo
The Aria
New York New York
Luxor
Arizona Charlie's
Tropicana

on top of the current installations of The Mirage, Casino Royale, Eureka and The Golden Nugget.

Furthermore, The Golden Nugget are adding a 2nd table and Casino Royale are adding a 3rd table.

So, some fair to moderate success so far :-)

Whoa hold on now- save some floor space for the rest of us. Can I get 3% of revenue if I come up with an offsetting rule that will blow your mind? I don't have any ideas, but it would be a fun sales event!

Quote: 21Revolution

Whoa hold on now- save some floor space for the rest of us. Can I get 3% of revenue if I come up with an offsetting rule that will blow your mind? I don't have any ideas, but it would be a fun sales event!

I'm always open to suggestions although I'm very pleased with the current version so it would take a lot to tweak it in any way.

Quote: McDemon

Quote: MrCasinoGames

Some might be happy to throw out 100 of side-bets/games?. I think some will be very happy to throw out 1 side-bets/games.

I can't even throw out 1 side-bets/games to the US market (I was lucky to get the On-line casinos with Casino Hold'em® and can't even throw another one out to them, They just don't like to trial new games and pay royalties).
I try to throw out Casino Hold'em® to the US market since 2000 and still can't get a casino to try it.

I don't think it is easy to throw out 100 of side-bets/games.
1) You must have 100+ side-bets/games to start with.
2) Getting a casinos to trial it (That is why I don't have any installation in the US).
3) Get 1 or 2 with modest successes here and there? :)

I think for you it is more about pride in your games, rather than the rewards.

I surprised the US market won't take on Casino Hold'em! Seems your distributor needs a kick up the ass

I am no longer with the same distributor in the US (Still with them in other Countries).
May be it will work out better this time and hopefully I can throw out a game or Two.

They are doing a very good job with my games in South Africa.
My games in SA: Casino Holdem®, Casino Hold'em® Progressive, BlackJack Block Bonus®, Block Pro® Blackjack Progressive and now Raise'em® Jack-Pot-5 Progressive-Poker.

Quote: McDemon

Congratulations on your installs.. I sincerely wish you all the best..just get rid of Push22 ;-)

Push 22 is not the only rule that takes a player win and turns it into a push. Look at EZ Baccarat (Banker wins with a three-card 7 are pushes) and EZ Pai Gow (Dealer Queen-high pushes all bets; most of them would have won). All three are clever and palatable ways of creating a house advantage.

Quote: Thermos

Push 22 is not the only rule that takes a player win and turns it into a push. Look at EZ Baccarat (Banker wins with a three-card 7 are pushes) and EZ Pai Gow (Dealer Queen-high pushes all bets; most of them would have won). All three are clever and palatable ways of creating a house advantage.

Hmm , surely only partially palatable otherwise the games cited would be more successful. EC Baccarat or Punto 2000 bombed in the UK, EZ Pai Gow as far as I know isn't offered in the UK and BJ Switch is in a handful of casinos. Freebet BJ might do better, to early to tell. I don't think they constitute neat ways of creating a house edge. And it would seem the players don't either. Pushes as a way of creating a HE, unless a very rare occurrence, is, IMO, a bad way of creating or shoring up the edge.

Quote: McDemon

Hmm , surely only partially palatable otherwise the games cited would be more successful. EC Baccarat or Punto 2000 bombed in the UK, EZ Pai Gow as far as I know isn't offered in the UK and BJ Switch is in a handful of casinos. Freebet BJ might do better, to early to tell. I don't think they constitute neat ways of creating a house edge. And it would seem the players don't either. Pushes as a way of creating a HE, unless a very rare occurrence, is, IMO, a bad way of creating or shoring up the edge.

EZ Pai-Gow may or may not be offered in the UK, but it is doubtlessly kicking @$$ in America! I also believe Switch is doing rather well, on this side of the pond.

Question - How big is the Pai Gow action in the U.K.?

EZ Baccarat probably has 500+ installs around the world. EZ Pai Gow is close to 100. Free Bet BJ/Switch must be at 150 or higher. In the history of carnival games, EZB, EZPG and BJS are in the top 25 of all time in terms of placements, and they are all on the ascent. Turning a win into a push is among the most acceptable mechanisms for creating a house advantage in a heads-up, even-money game.

Quote: Paigowdan

Question - How big is the Pai Gow action in the U.K.?

Sofar Pai Gow Poker has 0 Tables in the UK.

Quote: MrCasinoGames

Sofar Pai Gow Poker has 0 Tables in the UK.

How could a variation of the game fail over there?

Quote: Mission146

How could a variation of the game fail over there?

There is 1 Pai-Gow Tiles game in 1 Casino in London and 0 Pai Gow Poker game in the UK.

Quote: MrCasinoGames

There is 1 Pai-Gow Tiles game in 1 Casino in London and 0 Pai Gow Poker game in the UK.

I know, I was being facetious!

Quote: Paigowdan

Question - How big is the Pai Gow action in the U.K.?

Virtually Non existant

Quote: Thermos

EZ Baccarat probably has 500+ installs around the world. EZ Pai Gow is close to 100. Free Bet BJ/Switch must be at 150 or higher. In the history of carnival games, EZB, EZPG and BJS are in the top 25 of all time in terms of placements, and they are all on the ascent. Turning a win into a push is among the most acceptable mechanisms for creating a house advantage in a heads-up, even-money game.

OK..I didn't realise we were talking about carnival games. Those numbers are impressive. I think turning a win into a push is ok, BEFORE the players know about it, afterwoods, as a punter, it feels wrong.

New Casino Games -- the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

Dr. Eliot Jacobson put together this montage of some of the casino games he has seen. It just goes to show that if you think you have the next Three Card Poker, then you have a lot of company.

Quote: MrCasinoGames

New Casino Games -- the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

Dr. Eliot Jacobson put together this montage of some of the casino games he has seen. It just goes to show that if you think you have the next Three Card Poker, then you have a lot of company.

With respect, is Dr Jacobson a gaming person with umpteen years gaming experience?

Quote: McDemon

Quote: MrCasinoGames

New Casino Games -- the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

Dr. Eliot Jacobson put together this montage of some of the casino games he has seen. It just goes to show that if you think you have the next Three Card Poker, then you have a lot of company.

With respect, is Dr Jacobson a gaming person with umpteen years gaming experience?

Yes. I know the fine man. Many here do.

The people who truly know this business hold Elliot in the highest regard.

Quote: Thermos

The people who truly know this business hold Elliot in the highest regard.

Yes but according to his resume he has no actual gaming experience, so the answer to my question is no, he doesn't have any actual gaming experience.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Neither do most people running casinos.

Yes..Good one, that is also increasingly true

Quote: McDemon

Yes but according to his resume he has no actual gaming experience, so the answer to my question is no, he doesn't have any actual gaming experience.

I have got to admit, there are a LOT of people in this business with lots of gaming experience who are held in low regard. A lot of the executives came from other fields in a "previous life."

I knew a guy who was in this business for 40 years, and who was a graveyard shift floorman at a $3 local's house at 62. Not a pit boss or shift manager. He was hard pressed to do a fill on a table game. He had to thread a needle to accomplish that. It's a little bit like spending 40 years in the army, to retire as a staff sergeant. With no demotions. Just never hit stall speed. Wow....

Quote: McDemon

Yes but according to his resume he has no actual gaming experience, so the answer to my question is no, he doesn't have any actual gaming experience.

The man has made a career as a mathematician, analyst, author, consultant and AP expert. Just because he hasn't stood behind a rack of chips and slung cards for "umpteen years" doesn't mean he lacks gaming experience.

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Experience as a dealer has no positive correlation to expertise as a game developer. The inventors of these games, the most successful in the history of the industry, never spent a day behind a table:

Three Card Poker
Ultimate Texas Hold'em
Spanish 21
Let it Ride
4 Card Poker
Texas Hold'em Bonus
21+3
Mississippi Stud
Blackjack Switch/Free Bet Blackjack
Fortune Pai Gow Poker
Lucky Ladies
Crazy 4 Poker
Dragon Bonus
Caribbean Stud Poker
Perfect Pairs
Casino War
Casino Hold'em Poker*

*Not sure if Mr. Casino Games ever dealt; he sure handles chips like a mechanic.

The only games whose inventors I'm certain had dealing experience are EZ Pai Gow, EZ Baccarat and Fire Bet.

Quote: Thermos

The man has made a career as a mathematician, analyst, author, consultant and AP expert. Just because he hasn't stood behind a rack of chips and slung cards for "umpteen years" doesn't mean he lacks gaming experience.

It would be fairer to say he knows a lot about mathematics and associated disciples to do with casino games. If he had put in some years working from dealer upwards to a high position and on top of that he was everything else, then he is an gaming expert and a man to be listened to.

I have read his book, new Table games, a non gaming friend of mine suggested I might benefit. This guys knows his maths, I found his game design knowledge average, certainly no better than many members on this forum, which is exactly what it should be for an intelligent man but not a gaming man. The book was written by a non gaming man for a non gaming audience. Yes he knows a lot about gaming mathematics and specialises in that field and his view about a mathematical problem would be sought after.

Thats is my professional opinion, I have not met him. By the sounds of it he is a decent guy. But I do not believe his opinion of a game is any more authoritative than any member on this forum.

Quote: McDemon

It would be fairer to say he knows a lot about mathematics and associated disciples to do with casino games. If he had put in some years working from dealer upwards to a high position and on top of that he was everything else, then he is an gaming expert and a man to be listened to.

I have read his book, new Table games, a non gaming friend of mine suggested I might benefit. This guys knows his maths, I found his game design knowledge average, certainly no better than many members on this forum, which is exactly what it should be for an intelligent man but not a gaming man. The book was written by a non gaming man for a non gaming audience. Yes he knows a lot about gaming mathematics and specialises in that field and his view about a mathematical problem would be sought after.

Thats is my professional opinion, I have not met him. By the sounds of it he is a decent guy. But I do not believe his opinion of a game is any more authoritative than any member on this forum.

Ask any true expert on this forum what he thinks of Dr. Jacobsen, and you will find the consensus opinion is counter to yours.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

These are the people that I would have much more respect for. The ones that start out in the trenches and know exactly whats going on.

Sometimes true. The Peter principal is a dynamic that applies. The floorman described couldn't do much well, from doing a fill to spotting a counter or a missed payout. In the same pit, a 26 year old kid with a master's in education who dealt for two years before becoming floor was able to do everything really, really well.

It's not just about starting out in the trenches, it's about staying too long down there for a reason. Sad to say, in this business many who are management officers view those who stay too long on the floor as "permanent sergeants." And while shift managers and Table Game directors are officers who are seen on the floor, they really aren't pit critters any longer. I dealt dice for years, and worked to rise out of the trenches, and discovered that many good, sharp gaming guys never dealt.

Many great gaming experts didn't start in the casino pit.

Quote: Paigowdan

Sometimes true. The Peter principal is a dynamic that applies. This floorman couldn't do much well, from doing a fill to spotting a counter or a missed payout. In the same pit, a 26 year old kid with a master's in education who dealt for two years before becoming floor was able to do everything really, really well.

It's not just about starting out in the trenches, it's about staying too long down there for a reason. Sad to say, in this business many who are management officers view those who stay too long on the floor as "permanent sergeants." And while shift managers and Table Game directors are officers who are seen on the floor, they really aren't pit critters any longer. I dealt dice for years, and worked to rise out of the trenches, and discovered that many good, sharp gaming guys never dealt.

Agree. There's a difference between having "umpteen years of experience" and repeating the same one-year of experience umpteen times. The latter doesn't matter.

Quote: Thermos

Experience as a dealer has no positive correlation to expertise as a game developer. The inventors of these games, the most successful in the history of the industry, never spent a day behind a table:

Three Card Poker
Ultimate Texas Hold'em
Spanish 21
Let it Ride
4 Card Poker
Texas Hold'em Bonus
21+3
Mississippi Stud
Blackjack Switch/Free Bet Blackjack
Fortune Pai Gow Poker
Lucky Ladies
Crazy 4 Poker
Dragon Bonus
Caribbean Stud Poker
Perfect Pairs
Casino War
Casino Hold'em Poker*

*Not sure if Mr. Casino Games ever dealt; he sure handles chips like a mechanic.

The only games whose inventors I'm certain had dealing experience are EZ Pai Gow, EZ Baccarat and Fire Bet.

To suggest that being a "dealer" (which is not the only position in a casino) has no positive correlation to expertise as a games developer is like saying, you don't have to know medicine to be a medical physician. its just a silly thing to say. Yes you can develop games with zero gaming experience, of course you can. But to have chance at a successful NEW game, in the current market, you will need to know market, gaming procedure, gaming culture, customers needs, etc. With respect, you can't KNOW these essentials if you never worked in a casino. Why do you think it took so long for Derek Webb to get his game in?

May I point out that of the games you mention, not one, is a new game, not one. Most are variations on Poker/brag or sidebets. Yes some of these variations and sidebets have been successful.

Dan has worked in the business so I probably value his opinion (for this reason) more than most, Mr Casino games has, as far as I know, never worked in a casino

Quote: Thermos

Ask any true expert on this forum what he thinks of Dr. Jacobsen, and you will find the consensus opinion is counter to yours.

That may be true but it doesn't mean I am wrong