Pai Gow-8 Full Poker Pai Gow.

Guys,
Here's the poop on the new "Full poker" Pai Gow game that DEQ will show at G2E this year.

Pai Gow-8 Pai Gow is a Full Poker version of Pai Gow Poker for casinos and card rooms. You are dealt eight cards, and you form a five card long poker hand, and a three card long poker hand. If you beat the dealer on both sides, you win. If the dealer wins both sides, you lose, and any split decision is a push. Wheel Straights (A23 and A2345) are the 2nd highest straights. There is NO commission in Pai Gow-8.

There are only two rules of the game of Pai Gow-8:
1. If the five-card hand side can be played with two pair or greater, then any 3-card poker hand can be played for the low-side, such as 3-card straights, flushes and trips, etc. If the player’s five-card hand is no pair or one pair, then the low-side has to be weaker, so straights, flushes, and trips do not count for the player’s three-card hand, You may split two pairs, if you cannot put up a three-card poker hand or an ace when you have a two pair hand.

2. The dealer’s hand pushes with an Ace-high hand, exactly, which is rare in eight cards- yet all bonus side bets are always active; and if the dealer gets a King-high or less – dealer’s hand has to play.

There is a simple but strong strategy that is very easy, so it’s a quick game to learn:


Pai Gow: Play your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strongest cards in the Low-3 side, to be considered as high cards.
One pair: play your pair on the High-5 side, with your best singleton cards as your Low-3 side, which will be considered as high cards.
Two pairs: play together with an Ace, flush, straight, or better for the Low-3 side, else split the two pairs with lower pair going into the Low-3 side.
Three or four pairs: If a middle or low pair can be sacrificed to form a Low-3 side of straight or better, then play it that way, else play the second-highest pair on the low-3 side.
Three of a kind or stronger: Play the highest poker type of 5-card side possible of a straight or better, if it has a flush or straight or better for the low-3 side. Else play the strongest low-3 side (trips, flush, straight, pair, A-high, King- high, etc.) that keeps a three of a kind or better on the high-5 side.

Full House with extra pair: Keep Full House together by sacrificing one of the pairs to make a Low-3 straight or better, else play the highest pair on low-3 side.
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Now here comes a LOT of Sample hands: WARNING - THIS GAME IS FOR SERIOUS PAI GOW POKER PLAYERS!!!

Sample Hands - Two and three pairs: (* = Joker)
AKJ88552 play as AKJ/88552, and KKQ99863 play as 99Q/KK863
QQ775432 play as 543/QQ772
A♥-Q♥-J♣-J♥-8♥-8♠-5♥-5♣: flush with three pairs play as A♥-Q♥-5♥ / J-J-8-8-5
*AKKJJ88 is AK*/JJ88K
*AKKQQJJ = KQJ/AKQJ* play as double straight
KQQJJ10109 = QJ10 / KQJ109 play as double straight
KQQJJ1099 = JJK / QQ9910 three pairs, middle pair up
*-10♠-9♦-6♦-5♥-5♠-3♠-3♣ is played as *-10♠-9♦ / 55336, not *-9♦-6♦/553310, because the Low-3 straight is stronger than the Low-3 flush with the same two pairs on the high-5 side.

K♥-Q♠-Q♥-J♦-8♣-8♠-5♥-4♥ play as K♥-5♥-4♥ / Q-Q-8-8-J

Full House examples:
A♦-*-8♦-8♣-8♥-J♣-6♣-2♣: Do not play it as A♦-2♣-* / 8♦-8♥-8♣-J♣-2♣’s, and neither as
8♦-8♥-A♦ / *-J♣-8♣-6♣-2♣. You should play the full house, as: J♣-6♣-2♣/A♦-*-8♦-8♣-8♥.
*-K♠-10♥-9♣-9♥-5♣-5♠-5♥: play *-10♥-9♥ / 5-5-5-K-9, as a low-3 straight flush with trips, NOT AK10 or pair.

888444109 = 1098 / 44488; 76665444 = 765 / 44466; 77776555 = 555/77776, not 765/77755
Straights, Flushes, etc:

K♦-10♣-10♠-7♣-6♣-5♣-5♥-2♣: do not play the 5-card flush; play it as7♣-6♣-2♣ / 10-10-5-5-K
A♦-A♥-J♦-J♥-2♣-2♥-Q♦-5♦: three pairs play as strongest two pairs with flush up: Q♦-J♦-5♦ / A-A-2-2-J
K♦-K♥-Q♥-10♥-9♣-7♦-6♥-4♥: play 5-card flush down as K♦-9♣-7♦ / K♥-Q♥-10♥-6♥-4♥
K♦-10♣-10♠-7♣-6♣-5♣-5♥-2♣: play as 7♣-6♣-2♣ / 10-10-5-5-K.
*-A♠-A♦-K♦-J♣-9♦-5♦-4♥: play as K♦-9♦-5♦ / *-A-A-J-4, A2234456 = A42 / 65432, not A65/44223
*-A♥-Q♣-8♥-5♦-5♥-5♠-3♣: play as A-*-Q / 5-5-5-8-3
*-K♦-Q♦-J♥-7♦-3♦-2♦-2♣: play as 2-2-J / *-K♦-Q♦-7♦-3♦
Q♥-5♦-5♣-4♥-4♣-3♥-3♠-2♦: play as 4-4-Q / 5-5-3-3-2
A♥-Q♠-J♠-J♥-9♥-7♥-5♣-4♥: play as 5-card flush: Q-J-5 / A♥-J♥-9♥-7♥-4♥
*-5♦-5♣-4♦-4♣-3♦-3♠-2♦: play as 5♦-4♦-3♦ / *-2♦-3♠-4♣-5♣, or 5♣-4♣-3♠ / *-2♦-3♦-4♦-5♦

*A553322 = 552/*A332 three pairs with middle pair up.
*A443322 = 432/A234* double straight.
*AA53322 = A23/A23*5 double straight, and not as 5*3/AA223 two pairs;
*AA55332 = 552/*AA33 full house with pair, not A53 /A23*5 straight, nor *AA/55332 low two pair
AAKKQJ1010: Play as AKQ/AKQJ10, not as KKQ/AA1010J
*J♣J♦7♦6♠6♦2♣2♠: Play as *7♦6♦ / J♣J♦2♣2♠6♠

Full Houses with Straights:
QQJ109888 = J109 / 888QQ. AA*34555 = 543 / AA*55, A*345666=543 / 666A*, not 66A/*6543
99876555 = 876 / 55599, AA*JJJ97 = 9*7 / JJJAA, but: AA*JJJ96 = JJJ/AA*96, not J*9/AAJJ6

Sample hands with Four Aces:
AAAAK742 is played as AK7 / AAA42; but AAAAK732 is played as A23 / AAAK7 A♦A♣A♠A♥K♦7♣4♣2♥ is played as A♣7♣4♣ / A♦A♠A♥K♦2♥ with a flush in the low-3 side; A♠A♣A♦A♥J♦7♥5♠2♣ = AJ7 / AAA52
AAAA5432 is played as 543 / AAAA2, with 432 or 543 straight or straight flush, not AAA/A2345;
AAAA9654 is played as 654 / AAAA9.
A♦A♣A♠A♥K♣7♣3♣2♣ is played as K♣7♣3/AAAA2 (house way) or as A♦A♥A♠ /A♣K♣7♣3♣2♣ (player way).
A♦A♣A♠A♥K♠7♦3♣2♣ is played as A♣2♣3♣ / A♦A♠A♥K♠7♦: trips down with a SF up.

A Full house with flush/straight and flush/flush and straight/trips:
A♣ A♥ * 6♣ 4♥ 3♥ 3♣ 2♣:
Do not play trip Aces with the straight up as 4♥3♥2♣ / A♣ A♥ * 6♣ 3♣.
Do not play as split up Full House: 3♥ 3♣ 2♣ / A♣ A♥ * 6♣ 4♥
Do not play as straight with pair of Aces top: A♣ A♥ 3♥ / 6♣ * 4♥ 3♣ 2♣
Also do not play straight with Flush top: A♣ 6♣ 3♣ / A♥ 2♣ 3♥ 4♥ *
Play as Flush with flush top: A♥ 4♥3♥ / A♣ * 6♣ 3♣ 2♣

Five Aces always has a straight or flush up:
AAAA*777 = 777/AAAA*, AAAA*985=*98/AAAA5, AAAA*237=*32/AAAA7, AAAA*J♠8♠2♥=*J♠8♠/AAAA2♥, not A2*/AAAJ8
Strongest hands are Five Aces or Royal w/ trips or SF top: [KKK/AAAA*], [K♣-Q♣-J♣ / AAAA*], [AAA/A♠K♠Q♠J♠10♠], [A♥K♥Q♥ / A♠K♠Q♠J♠10♠].
==========================

General Stats on the game:
Ranks and Distribution of hands – percentages: 53-card deck with bug joker.
Low-3 side ranking (A23 is 2nd) High-5 side (A2345 is 2nd high): Notes on Low-3 side:
a) Str Flush 100 %
b) Trips 99.0%
c) Flush AKx 98.0%
d) Flush 532 86.6%
e) Str: AKQ 86.5%
f) Str: 432 78.3%
g) AAx Pair 78.2%
h) 88x Pair 70 %
i) 22x Pair 60.5%
j) AKJ 58.5%
k) A10x 43.1%
l) KJ10 31.0%

Five card side power ranking:
High-5 side (A2345 is 2nd high): Notes on Low-3 side:
a) Five Aces 100.00% Any Poker allowed Low-3 side
b) Royal 99.999% “ “ “ “
c) SF 99.992% “ “ “ “
d) Four of a Kind 99.585% “ “ “ “
e) Full house 97% - 99% “ “ “ “
f) Flush 91% - 97% “ “ “ “
g) Straight 78% - 91% “ “ “ “
h) Trips 68% - 78% “ “ “ “
i) Two pair 36% - 68% “ “ “ “
j) One pair 11% - 36% Must be lower pair/High cards.
k) Ace-high ~ 4.08% Low-3 side is only high cards.
l) <= King-high ~ 2.01% Dealer pushes on his King-high


1. 64% of hands are two pairs and better – allowing for Full Poker Play on both sides; 32% of all hands dealt are three of a kind or better.
2. A flush outranks a straight on both sides of the hand.
3. Median Hand is AQ9/1010553.

I think it is an excellent game that should be very attractive to players due to the frequency of good hands.

I question how easily the simple strategy will come to most players, I would probably suggest that most players would naturally be inclined to make the strongest possible hand up top, with exception to one pair, because that is essentially the same strategy as with Pai Gow Poker. For example, with Two Pair, I would imagine that the inexperienced player would almost always keep the two-pair together for a more likely high side win (and more likely push) than following the simple strategy. I have not played too much regular Pai Gow Poker at a full table, but when I have, there almost always seems to be one or two players that always keep the two pair together.

I really run into trouble with the Three or Four Pair strategy. I just don't see an average player naturally inclined to break that up, especially given regular Pai Gow Poker play. I can easily see Three Pair going low two, high side, high pair, low side. I would think it would just come naturally, and that's also the right way to do it in Regular Pai Gow Poker. For the Four-Pair hand, same thing.

I could see the player naturally playing the others correctly.

This game is going to run a little slower than Pai-Gow Poker, I would say, especially if the player is playing the right way. The main mistake that players are going to make, in my opinion, is adopting a Pai Gow Poker strategy essentially without consideration to the Three-Card Poker aspect of the game.

Even if the player plays in a flawed manner, however, you're still looking at an excellent hit rate just with a higher propensity of Pushes. Also, nearly 1:3 to be dealt a Three-Of-A-Kind, brilliant, monster hands = monster excitement.

I think this is an excellent game, though I do believe you are overestimating the natural abilities of the average player...fortunately, those over-estimations won't hurt the player too much.

Quote: Mission146

I think it is an excellent game that should be very attractive to players due to the frequency of good hands.

I question how easily the simple strategy will come to most players, I would probably suggest that most players would naturally be inclined to make the strongest possible hand up top, with exception to one pair, because that is essentially the same strategy as with Pai Gow Poker. For example, with Two Pair, I would imagine that the inexperienced player would almost always keep the two-pair together for a more likely high side win (and more likely push) than following the simple strategy. I have not played too much regular Pai Gow Poker at a full table, but when I have, there almost always seems to be one or two players that always keep the two pair together.

Very true for many players, but like I said, this game is a serious game for the 25% or so of Pai Gow players who are up to this sort of thing; there ARE some serious ass Pai Gow players out there - not the majority - but a market niche, who may get into such a game. For them, their "poker eyes" WILL see the possibilities.

Quote: Mission146

I really run into trouble with the Three or Four Pair strategy. I just don't see an average player naturally inclined to break that up, especially given regular Pai Gow Poker play. I can easily see Three Pair going low two, high side, high pair, low side. I would think it would just come naturally, and that's also the right way to do it in Regular Pai Gow Poker. For the Four-Pair hand, same thing.

Because the low side still fairly well follows the regular game, playing an Ace up or a pair instead of possible flush or straight is a moderately minor mistake that some will quickly correct. The simple trick on three or four pair hands is to never break up the highest pair, and sacrifice a middle or lower pair to make a possible straight or flush for the top, else just play the second highest pair up.

Quote: Mission146

I could see the player naturally playing the others correctly.

This game is going to run a little slower than Pai-Gow Poker, I would say, especially if the player is playing the right way. The main mistake that players are going to make, in my opinion, is adopting a Pai Gow Poker strategy essentially without consideration to the Three-Card Poker aspect of the game.

Even if the player plays in a flawed manner, however, you're still looking at an excellent hit rate just with a higher propensity of Pushes. Also, nearly 1:3 to be dealt a Three-Of-A-Kind, brilliant, monster hands = monster excitement.

I think this is an excellent game, though I do believe you are overestimating the natural abilities of the average player...fortunately, those over-estimations won't hurt the player too much.

On this game, I know that a large minority of the more serious players will adapt quickly to the features of the game, as it was designed as a "top-end" Pai Gow game for "the hard-core Pai Gow playing population." I can definitely see this in West Coast card rooms and East coast casinos, and less so in Council Bluffs, Iowa, for example. It is for a core audience, and we are giving this a shot.

I am very curious to see how this game will be recieved.....

Quote: Paigowdan

Very true for many players, but like I said, this game is a serious game for the 25% or so of Pai Gow players who are up to this sort of thing; there ARE some serious ass Pai Gow players out there - not the majority - but a market niche, who may get into such a game. For them, their "poker eyes" WILL see the possibilities.

I definitely agree with your strategy if you are gunning for the top tier of players in terms of skill. I am interested, however, in the approximate HE especially as compared to Pai Gow Poker. Will this be a higher Minimum Bet game? I suppose my concern with gunning for the top tier of Pai Gow Poker players is that is who you will get...Pai Gow Poker players. They'd simply be moving from one table to another, in-house. Ideally, I take it that the game would catch fire and spread enough that Pai Gow Poker players would come from a casino lacking this game to the casino that has this game in order to play it...and will remain.

If this works, I tend to wonder if you would be able to get a casino to pay more for some sort of non-compete local exclusivity to the game. It seems that you would want to do so, or at least limit the game in markets such as Vegas, because you are otherwise just pulling people from Pai Gow Poker...and maybe a few from Three Card Poker, but I doubt that, people like Three Card because it is easy.

This is definitely not a game for a new player, though. I think a few would try it out due to the high rate of good hands, but if anyone comes with less than at least a B+ Pai-Gow Poker game (or anyone that has never played regular PGP and does not learn very, very quickly) they will find themselves getting demoralized.

Quote:

Because the low side still fairly well follows the regular game, playing an Ace up or a pair instead of possible flush or straight is a moderately minor mistake that some will quickly correct. The simple trick on three or four pair hands is to never break up the highest pair, and sacrifice a middle or lower pair to make a possible straight or flush for the top, else just play the second highest pair up.

I agree with that completely. I would say that the, "Best Possible Hand up top," strategy increases the HE moderately, and the most immediate and obvious effect will be a higher Push rate.

Quote:

On this game, I know that a large minority of the more serious players will adapt quickly to the features of the game, as it was designed as a "top-end" Pai Gow game for "the hard-core Pai Gow playing population." I can definitely see this in West Coast card rooms and East coast casinos, and less so in Council Bluffs, Iowa, for example. It is for a core audience, and we are giving this a shot.

I am very curious to see how this game will be recieved.....

I'm glad that you are giving it a shot, and I hope that it is very well-received. I can see it being a very engaging game. I think that speed of play is a concern, I'm reasonably good at PGP, maybe a B+, and just sitting here dealing myself eight cards really gives me pause to think of the best way to do it. I suppose this could be mitigated by a higher Table Minimum, is that the case?

It is a highly engaging game, though. It's definitely one of those games you want to play just to be playing the game, like Pai Gow Tiles. It's going to take some time for the right play to become automatic, even for the advanced player, so that gives it great replay value (sorry for the video game term) just for the game in and of itself!

Quote: Mission146

I definitely agree with your strategy if you are gunning for the top tier of players in terms of skill. I am interested, however, in the approximate HE especially as compared to Pai Gow Poker.

The HE with a king or less dealer push is about 1.0% against perfect play, or 2.0% nominal - minicking the house way.
The HE with an Ace-only push is about 3% via strong optimal play.

Quote: Mission146

Will this be a higher Minimum Bet game?

Maybe; the individual house sets the table limits. I can see it higher with the King-push, and less with the Ace-push. Again, the individual casino operator decides.

Quote: Mission146

I suppose my concern with gunning for the top tier of Pai Gow Poker players is that is who you will get...Pai Gow Poker players. They'd simply be moving from one table to another, in-house. Ideally, I take it that the game would catch fire and spread enough that Pai Gow Poker players would come from a casino lacking this game to the casino that has this game in order to play it...and will remain.

My hopes and prayers - and my gift to the Pai Gow world!.......The original name of the game, in-house, was "Master's Pai Gow."

Quote: Mission146

If this works, I tend to wonder if you would be able to get a casino to pay more for some sort of non-compete local exclusivity to the game. It seems that you would want to do so, or at least limit the game in markets such as Vegas, because you are otherwise just pulling people from Pai Gow Poker...and maybe a few from Three Card Poker, but I doubt that, people like Three Card because it is easy.

This was a concerned that was later realized as a non-issue;
First of all, Lincoln town cars and Fancy Mustangs pull people from the lower-end Ford's...and that is not a loss, that is progress, choice, and selection.
Secondly, unlike commission regular Pai Gow, this is proprietary, and there can be no public domain clone (or copy of this game from Roger & co.) of this game for a long while.

Quote: Mission146

This is definitely not a game for a new player, though. I think a few would try it out due to the high rate of good hands, but if anyone comes with less than at least a B+ Pai-Gow Poker game (or anyone that has never played regular PGP and does not learn very, very quickly) they will find themselves getting demoralized.

Maybe for a C+ player. In mature markets like Las Vegas, the percentage of B+ and "A" level Pai Gow players is very large, as it is in West Coast Markets and East Coast markets.

Quote: Mission146

I'm glad that you are giving it a shot, and I hope that it is very well-received. I can see it being a very engaging game. I think that speed of play is a concern, I'm reasonably good at PGP, maybe a B+, and just sitting here dealing myself eight cards really gives me pause to think of the best way to do it. I suppose this could be mitigated by a higher Table Minimum, is that the case?

Yes; also with no commission, and with 5 player spots, the next hand comes along much more quickly.

Quote: Mission146

It is a highly engaging game, though. It's definitely one of those games you want to play just to be playing the game, like Pai Gow Tiles. It's going to take some time for the right play to become automatic, even for the advanced player, so that gives it great replay value (sorry for the video game term) just for the game in and of itself!

It is a TON easier to learn than tiles, - a good strategy and eye for it is actually pretty easy with some practice, - many will click into gear, I think.

Quote: Paigowdan

The HE with a king or less dealer push is about 1.0% against perfect play, or 2.0% nominal - minicking the house way.
The HE with an Ace-only push is about 3% via strong optimal play.

I think that those HE's are fantastic. It seems that less than optimal play, and honestly, anything better than merely average play will disappear your money slower than a game such as Roulette. The other advantage is that a player can always ask for the House to set his/her cards the House Way in the first place, so if anyone wants to play Pai-Gow Coin-Toss, they can. Brilliant work on that HE, Dan.

Quote:

My hopes and prayers - and my gift to the Pai Gow world!.......The original name of the game, in-house, was "Master's Pai Gow."

I hope it will be a gift well (and often) received. Why did they get rid of, "Master's Pai-Gow?" My God, that is a terrific name. Did they decide that the name was too intimidating? I think it would do well to draw those players who want others to KNOW how good they are, there are plenty, see them at BJ all the time...except they usually suck. LOL

Quote:

This was a concerned that was later realized as a non-issue;
First of all, Lincoln town cars and Fancy Mustangs pull people from the lower-end Ford's...and that is not a loss, that is progress, choice, and selection.
Secondly, unlike commission regular Pai Gow, this is proprietary, and there can be no public domain clone (or copy of this game from Roger & co.) of this game for a long while.

That's very true, but what if you have huge popularity in one market (such as California) and you want to take the game to Atlantic City? I think that could be a tremendous marketing tool, personally, to get top dollar. "I have this game, and it is a hit out West, I'm only leasing it to two AC casinos for the first two years. Gentlemen, place your bets!" There are many industries (ex. big oil) that artificially decrease the supply all the time to drive up the cost of the product.

Quote:

It is a TON easier to learn than tiles, - a good strategy and eye for it is actually pretty easy with some practice, - many will click into gear, I think.

I think that will vary from person-to-person. I would say that, within 200 (or so) hands, I just naturally started playing slightly better than the House Way with Pai Gow Tiles. I still do. Everytime WoO says I suck, I just tell it to revert to House Way, and it is always exactly what I did. I think this might be tougher, but I will self deal a couple hundred hands (without your chart) and write down my decisions and then compare and see if I am regularly adhering to your simple strategy in the latter 25 hands. I'll do it in 25 hand segments and see how many mistakes I make in each segment.

As a pai gow fan, I really want to read this thread, but these epic posts are a turn off.
Any way you guys could keep it below 250 words...?
Just a thought...I will , begrudgingly, read this tomorrow if I have some free time.

Dan, this is quite a game! Clearly a niche game for PGP experts, I am not serious enough of a PGP player to step up to this game. This is "aspirational" PGP......something that experts and those that want to be experts are going to want to learn how to play.

I look at it like NL Hold'em......there are a lot of poker players that aspire to play no limt cash games, many should not be at the table as their skill set is seriously outmatched. I see this game like that for PGP, the difference being that you can teach yourself how to play and what proper strategy is, that is the challenge. You won't get beat by anyone except yourself, now get out there and learn how to play!

It will be slower than PGP and with only 5 players as the table (I know you addressed it in another thread as not an issue), I do see this as higher limit type game. In fact it may be a bit like Big Table Baccarat. Available in the high end Asian Pits only....obviously that limits the market a bit, but how killer would that be to have a proprietary product in the Whale Room.....what kind of lease rate does that command!

Mission is so right on the name, this is "Masters Pai Gow"! You need to aspire to be a Master to play it well. Is DEQ too afraid of the intimidation factor of such a name.....you aren't going to disguise the complexity of this game from anyone once they sit down to play, but maybe that is the point....let's at least get them to sit down and try it. I am trying to balance that against the longer term mystique of a name like "Master's Pai Gow" creates.....I think I like that mystique more than the short term desire to get players to try the game. PGP players are going to try this game regardless of the name.....the mystique and challenge will keep them coming back.

I can see it now....players sitting at a regular PGP table saying "Have you tried that Master's Pai Gow yet?.....Man that game is challenging compared to this game!" I think the challenge to play it well will be a momentum builder for the game.

I love my DEQ stock position with this game coming on board. Your EZ PGP and now "Master's Pai Gow" are going to feed some serious install and recurring revenue growth going forward. I am also interested to see what DEQ can do with a truly new game concept like Suit 'em Up 31.

Of course I own SHFL as well and am very excited about Free Bet and House Money, but that is a much bigger needle to move than DEQ's.

Can you really have two successful games up your sleeve? Well this one will be more niche than EZ PGP. So you have your PGP for the masses and your Master's Pai Gow for the connoisseurs.....as you like to say "very fine" my friend!

Only questions are pace of play and complexity.....these are seen as positives for the niche you are going for, so we just need to understand if the niche is big enough, particularly with bigger money players.

Quote: WongBo

As a pai gow fan, I really want to read this thread, but these epic posts are a turn off.
Any way you guys could keep it below 250 words...?

I get it. TLDR = Too Long, Didn't Read, look at it later. I Got it - but you GOTTA review this stuff, Wong Bo. This is a NO JOKE Pai Gow game !!

Quote: WongoBo

Just a thought...I will , begrudgingly, read this tomorrow if I have some free time.

You should - It's a monster pai Gow Game, Wong Bo - AND WE WANT YOUR EXPERT OPINION !!!!

IT'S MASTER'S PAI GOW COME TO BE....and we need you input! DO look at some of the hands....

Quote: Paradigm

Dan, this is quite a game! Clearly a niche game for PGP experts, I am not serious enough of a PGP player to step up to this game. This is "aspirational" PGP......something that experts and those that want to be experts are going to want to learn how to play.

DEQ, as an exceptional and "boutique" distributor, - took a risk that may pay off with this - my opinion. The cat is now out of the bag on the next evolultion in the Pai Gow market, - like it or not. And it belongs to DEQ!

Quote: Paradign

It will be slower than PGP and with only 5 players as the table (I know you addressed it in another thread as not an issue), I do see this as higher limit type game. In fact it may be a bit like Big Table Baccarat. Available in the high end Asian Pits only....obviously that limits the market a bit, but how killer would that be to have a proprietary product in the Whale Room.....what kind of lease rate does that command!

Not that much slower. All albatrosses have been jettisonned from the game: no banking, no dragon-hands, five quick spots, no commission, no change making losses, - and the expected-level players can still set their hands in seconds with a sharp poker eye. Just a professional Pai Gow Master's game. Again, it is a Master's or "Pro's" version of the game for West-Coast and East-Coast markets, - where they are expected to handle the game. We are giving this thing a go!

Quote: Paradigm

Mission is so right on the name, this is "Masters Pai Gow"! You need to aspire to be a Master to play it well.

Easily done - if you think on your feet at a live table game. And a LOT of pai Gow players are already at this level - about 25% of the mature market - perhaps more in California, Washington State, and on the East Coast.

Quote: Paradigm

Is DEQ too afraid of the intimidation factor of such a name.....you aren't going to disguise the complexity of this game from anyone once they sit down to play, but maybe that is the point....let's at least get them to sit down and try it. I am trying to balance that against the longer term mystique of a name like "Master's Pai Gow" creates.....I think I like that mystique more than the short term desire to get players to try the game. PGP players are going to try this game regardless of the name.....the mystique and challenge will keep them coming back.

maybe DEQ marketing was afraid of an off-putting and elite name...and still, "Pai Gow-8" describes it perfectly without that element being introduced...it's a game where serious Pai Gow players may decide for themselves if they want to participate - and I think many will be up to it!

Quote: Paradign

I can see it now....players sitting at a regular PGP table saying "Have you tried that Master's Pai Gow yet?.....Man that game is challenging compared to this game!" I think the challenge to play it well will be a momentum builder for the game.

I think so too, but that a significant portion will "Get It" straight away, or fairly quickly. The strategy is actually quite straightforward, but the good "Poker Eye" is the test that will save you and make you.

Quote: Paradigm

I love my DEQ stock position with this game coming on board. Your EZ PGP and now "Master's Pai Gow" are going to feed some serious install and recurring revenue growth going forward. I am also interested to see what DEQ can do with a truly new game concept like Suit 'em Up 31.

I think that game will do well. Steve Jones [product manager at DEQ] worked very well and closely with Brent Weiss on suited-31, and they did a fantastic job in producing a very elegant version of 31. The two games I am most up on for G2E ARE pai Gow-8 and Suited-31.

Quote: Paradigm

Of course I own SHFL as well and am very excited about Free Bet and House Money, but that is a much bigger needle to move than DEQ's.

For sure. House Money and Free bet Blackjack are monsters, and I see Roger & Co. owning the Blackjack market with them really, and that is where I think they are going. I don't see Shufflemaster doing anything like this in the Pai Gow Poker area, or in the Baccarat area (since Dragon Bonus Paytable is aging), nor do I see Shufflemaster doing anything like G3/I3 progressive systems, except with their full-blown I-deal tables, which are very fine but hugely expensive to operators, and are limited now to simple games like Three Card poker.

Concerning both DEQ and Galaxy gaming versus Shufflemaster: A Golliath cannot be as responsive as a Jaguar, even in spite of Roger.

Quote: paradigm

Can you really have two successful games up your sleeve?

Yes. You haven't seen squat yet, Michael. Roger has at least five, and Geoff hall two outright. I think I have THREE.

Quote: Paradigm

Well this one will be more niche than EZ PGP. So you have your PGP for the masses and your Master's Pai Gow for the connoisseurs.....as you like to say "very fine" my friend!

I think as a game designer, I have a very good shot at being dominant in the Pai Gow market at least, with DEQ at my side, through our efforts.

Quote: paradigm

Only questions are pace of play and complexity.....these are seen as positives for the niche you are going for, so we just need to understand if the niche is big enough, particularly with bigger money players.

With the game simplifications (again: no dragon hand bullshit, no banking bullshit, five quick playing spots, and an easy and standardize house strategy) - I think we've game an intriguing game as simple and as elegant as possible, and I think it may be a success.

It also has the Bonus bet (which starts at a flush), the Pai Gow Protection insurance bet (which starts at an Ace-high paying 7:1 !) and I will now list the bonus bet tables here:

Side bets:
The Dynasty bet is an optional side bet that the player will get a flush or stronger:
Royal flush w/ trips or SF: 1000:1 Envy at $5 = $500
Five Aces: 250:1 Envy at $5 = $100
Royal flush, no trips or SF: 100:1 Envy at $5 = $50
K or lower Straight Flush 25:1 Envy at $5 = $5
Four of a Kind: 15:1
Full House: 5:1
Flush: 3:1

The Pai Gow Protection bet is a bet that the player will receive a high-card only hand. The payout table is:
Ace high: 7:1
King high: 15:1
Queen high: 50:1
Jack high: 100:1
Ten high: 200:1

Quote: Paigowdan

Now here comes a LOT of Sample hands: WARNING - THIS GAME IS FOR SERIOUS PAI GOW POKER PLAYERS!!!

I think the fact that you have so many samples, preceeded by a warning, should be a red flag in itself.

That said, I think (upon first reading, anyway) that it's too complex for me to wrap my little brain around.

The game is easy.
The hands are all interesting.
There's just many of them - a LOT of them.
Dave, even your brain can get it.
Just take your time.

Sounds like a fun game for serious PGP players, for sure.

My one concern with the game is the complication that you can't play flushes or straights on the low hand unless you have 2 pair or better on the high... in regular pai gow poker the only rule is your 2 card hand has to be lower than your 5 card hand. That's literally the only rule of the game. I foresee a lot of foul hands in the new game when players try to make straights and flushes on the low hand. Maybe you just need a really big sign with that rule.

The more complex the rules, the more lenient the house should be.
In standard PGP, I think it is a really lowlife move to enforce the "fouled" hand
considering the house dealer is allowed and required to reset a fouled hand.
At the very least a fouled hand should be reset following "house way".
There is no reason that this could not and should not be allowed.
The greed of the casinos on this issue is just one more reason
that I have no sympathy when a dealer error results in a payoff.

Quote: sodawater

Sounds like a fun game for serious PGP players, for sure.

My one concern with the game is the complication that you can't play flushes or straights on the low hand unless you have 2 pair or better on the high... in regular pai gow poker the only rule is your 2 card hand has to be lower than your 5 card hand. That's literally the only rule of the game. I foresee a lot of foul hands in the new game when players try to make straights and flushes on the low hand. Maybe you just need a really big sign with that rule.

Well, when you consider with that each position gets an eight-card hand, then two-thirds of the time the average hand for each position is at least two pairs - allowing for any three card poker type low hand if possible, - or for splitting two pairs, if not doable. And if a poker type low hand is not possible, then the player may split the two pairs without an Ace for the low hand top, or he keeps the two pairs together, with an ace for the top.

This prevents a player with a one pair hand or a pai gow hand from "claiming" a straight or a flush for the top - when the high hand should be weaker. If you have a pair of 8's in the five card hand, and have KQJ in the three card top side, then the three card top side is considered King-high KQJ, - because the bottom is only one pair. That is a stipulation to make this game possible - and it is easy to "get" - as the high hand must be stronger. Now, if you have two pairs (which is four cards in length), or stronger - then ANY three card hand is acceptable.

This is a standard Pai Gow rule in any case, - and here it is where the low hand cannot be a stronger poker hand anyway - if the high hand is not at least two pairs or a three of a kind or better for this game. That is the rule here. And three card trips on the low side is acceptable for the low hand if two pairs are on the high hand, - but best play in this eight-card game is to play the full house down with a pair or better for the top anyway.

In the case of this game, if you can put at least a four-card long two pair hand in the five-card side, or a three-card three of a kind, then you may place ANY BEST three card poker hand into the low hand you see fit.This arrangement makes for a greatly balanced Full Poker Pai Gow game. If you have one pair in the five card side, then you have a lower pair, or just high cards in the three card side anyway, as by this standard of "low hand is weaker" rules. That's the game, and people can "get this."

This actually makes pushes slightly rare in this game, which is excessive in regular Pai Gow Poker in any case.

We have tested this game with experienced Pai Gow poker players before releasing it, and there is no need for a really big sign for such a basic rule or condition for the game. Experienced pai Gow players seem to say, "Yeah, I get this game, and I like this game," so we decided to release this game.

We think it will make for an advanced Pai Gow poker type card game, - and may catch on and do well in advanced card rooms.

Quote: Paigowdan

The game is easy.
The hands are all interesting.
There's just many of them - a LOT of them.
Dave, even your brain can get it.
Just take your time.

I would play it. I might even enjoy it. I just don't know if the market is ready for a more advanced Pai Gow game yet. I think the game still needs to grow a little. It has a devoted following, but it's still a small following.

I do wish you luck for sure, I'm just not sure this is as much of a slam dunk as EZ Pai Gow.

Like I said before, this game designing thing is tough, I don't have the stones for it. But I like that you're giving it an effort.

I'm sure I'll see it at an Ameristar near me soon.

Quote: WongBo

The more complex the rules, the more lenient the house should be.
In standard PGP, I think it is a really lowlife move to enforce the "fouled" hand
considering the house dealer is allowed and required to reset a fouled hand.
At the very least a fouled hand should be reset following "house way".
There is no reason that this could not and should not be allowed.
The greed of the casinos on this issue is just one more reason
that I have no sympathy when a dealer error results in a payoff.

WongBo, we know about the claims some gamblers have to the "house's greed," - and we also know about pit personnel's complaint's of gamblers' constant "shot-taking" maneuvers - etc., etc., etc...that's for another thread, and yes, fouled hands are set to the house way, unless repeatedly done as a shot-taking or cheating maneuver.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
To avoid continuing this saga, the rules for this particular pai Gow game are very simple, and are generally the same for Pai Gow poker in general:

1. If you can play two pairs or better on the five-card side from your dealt eight-card hand, - then the low side may be ANY three-card poker type hand that you can make. And if you have two pairs, but still cannot make a three card poker hand from the remaining cards, you may either split the two pairs, or keep them together, - just as in regular Pai Gow Poker.

2. If you have one pair, or a high-card "Pai Gow" type hand in the full hand dealt to you, then your low side is a high-card hand, just as if you were dealt a one pair hand or high-card hand in Pai Gow Poker.

That is it for the hand setting rules of this full poker pai Gow game. We kept it that simple, and basically the very same as regular Pai Gow poker - to make it all possible.

We think it will get interest in card rooms and casinos, as a viable full-poker version of Pai Gow poker.

See it at G2E convention, in the DEQ gaming systems booth, October 2nd through the 4th.

Quote: FinsRule

I would play it. I might even enjoy it. I just don't know if the market is ready for a more advanced Pai Gow game yet. I think the game still needs to grow a little. It has a devoted following, but it's still a small following.

There are literally hundreds of Pai Gow tables in casinos in the continental United States, with many advanced players, and we consider it a fairly large enough following at this point - and so we are giving this game a "go" status to formally display it and introduce it.

Quote: Finsrule

I do wish you luck for sure, I'm just not sure this is as much of a slam dunk as EZ Pai Gow.

Neither do I, but like ANY new game release, it is all a gamble. We feel the odds are good enough to certainly show the game to potential customers at this point.

Quote: Finsrule

Like I said before, this game designing thing is tough, I don't have the stones for it. But I like that you're giving it an effort.

I'm sure I'll see it at an Ameristar near me soon.

So would I. Ameristar Casinos has been a GREAT supporter of EZ Pai Gow, and a very considerate supporter of DEQ systems, as their distributor and supplier on this game. If they are interested, they will receive very fine consideration from DEQ, of course. Some of the Ameristar localities are not as strong in Pai Gow Poker markets as the West Coast, East Coast, and Certain Las Vegas markets are, particularly Palace Station and the Cannery Group here in Las Vegas, - but again, if Ameristar has any interest, one telephone call to Steve Jones or Lou DiGregorio of DEQ Las Vegas, or to Earle Hall in Quebec, will be received with a very warm and gracious response to them.

Quote: Paigowdan

There are literally hundreds of Pai Gow tables in casinos in the continental United States, with many advanced players, and we consider it a fairly large enough following at this point - and so we are giving this game a "go" status to formally display it and introduce it.

I hope you're right. I don't want to be another negative voice. I feel there are too many on this forum.

You've obviously done the studies that say that people want a more advanced PGP game, I just am worried that the market is a little too narrow. I don't think someone off the street will be able to come and play this game well. I would think that is almost a requirement for any new table game.

deleted

I could have used that Pai Gow Protection bet on regular PGP this month! I had some stinkers. That might be a side bet that could be adjusted down for a 7-card game.

But there was one really strong black-chip player, with his wife playing the minimum and him helping her, then me playing the minimum and taking the dragon hand whenever available to get as many hands as possible cheaply since I was trying to learn the game, and the rest were very young new players who had the dealer setting and re-setting their hands at the time I was playing. This game would have eliminated half the table. I would try it if there were an online simulation available for practice.

I think the name "Master's" would be intimidating, but "8-Card" might remind people of "3-Card" which seems to be popular. Would there be anything like the Pair-Plus available for the 3 card hand? They don't have Pair-Plus on the Let It Ride game at the Tropicana in Atlantic City and everyone moans when they have a three card straight flush dealt and end up with nothing in the 5 card hand.

I definitely wouldn't recommend drinking while playing this.

" I definitely wouldn't recommend drinking while playing this. "

Might I ask what you recommend I do while drinking ?

Before answering, please be aware that we have a new administrator. It is rumored he can be somewhat of a prude at times !

Quote: buzzpaff

" I definitely wouldn't recommend drinking while playing this. "

Might I ask what you recommend I do while drinking ?

Before answering, please be aware that we have a new administrator. It is rumored he can be somewhat of a prude at times !

Roulette. :P

The new admin reminds me of a much younger me. He still likes people.

Thankfully, he does not resemble a younger me. I would be making house calls and collecting fines and/or computers.

Quote: sodawater

I think the weirdest thing about this new game is gonna be the dealer hand, if i understand the rules correctly.

So hand 1, the dealer has 9-9-A-K-Q-7-6-4 off suit

She sets the high hand as 9-9-7-6-4 and the low hand as AKQ -- so now her low hand loses to all pairs, including 2-2-3.

Then the next hand she's got 9-9-A-K-Q-7-7-4 off suit

She sets the high hand as 9-9-7-7-4 and the low hand as AKQ -- so now her low hand, with the exact same three cards as the last hand, is now an ace-high straight instead of just ace-high.

Yes. If the five-card high hand is one pair or less, then 3-card long poker is NOT activated for the low hand.

Quote: sodawater

So she also has to remember that her 3-card hand, which is the highest straight, loses to all flushes in the 3-card hand -- contrary to the rankings of 3-card poker in every other game. AND she has to remember her AKQ also beats any 3-card hand consisting of 3 suited cards if the player's high hand does not have two pair or better.

She just has to LOOK at her 5-card side: if it is two pairs or better, the low side is poker capable. If it is one pair or less, then it is not. The non-poker capable 3-card mode is the same way is in regular PGP, as an AK top is not a straight, it is an Ace with a King kicker.

Quote: sodawater

Not to mention that her high hand is now two pair and her low hand is a straight so in traditional poker, her high hand is lower than her low hand.

No. A THREE card straight is not "lower" than a four-card long two pair hand ON THE FIVE card side, it is a three card straight in the three card long LOW hand.

Quote: sodawater

That's gonna mean a lot of dealer errors and it's gonna be a tough game to supervise at a glance for the floor, too.

But -- i don't want to be too negative here. I would certainly try this game if it ever comes to NJ and I will probably like it, too.

It's easy to catch on to quickly, actually.

Hmmm... very nicely done Dan.

53C8 = 886,322,710 hands... No. of 8-Card Str. Flushes 28 Natural, and 224? Jkr. Quite the side-bet Jackpot!

busted the edit... those figures were 5 card hands... sigh.

I re-read this thread... One pair no str, fl, or str-fl in 3-card??? I have to ask the open-ended Question, Why?

Quote: 98Clubs

Hmmm... very nicely done Dan.

53C8 = 886,322,710 hands... No. of 8-Card Str. Flushes 28 Natural, and 224? Jkr. Quite the side-bet Jackpot!

I love the distribution of hands on this game; see first page of thread.

Quote: 98clubs

I re-read this thread... One pair no str, fl, or str-fl in 3-card??? I have to ask the open-ended Question, Why?

The reason why full 3-card poker is not allowed when the hand has only one pair or high cards is because you will have six or seven cards to form a very strong poker top, to go on top of a very weak five-card side otherwise. This balancing rule ("two pairs required in five-card side to allow full poker on low side") completely prevents such strong biasing and unbalance of the strength between the hand sides. With the rule, the poker strengths of the full hand, bewteen the sides, are very nicely balanced.

On a potential for a shared million dollar-plus jackpot?...

Quote: 98Clubs

Hmmm... very nicely done Dan.

53C8 = 886,322,710 hands... No. of 8-Card Str. Flushes 28 Natural, and 224? Jkr. Quite the side-bet Jackpot!

There are certain rare hands that can support a shared 7-digit jackpot or even 8-digit jackpot, - on a wide area progressive.
8-Card Natural Royal = 4 in 886M, or in 22,000,000 deals
7- card natural Royal with Strips or Straight flush
Four Aces with Four Kings.
And a 200,000 small shared jackpot when a player gets Four Aces with another quad, or $4,000 for 50 or so players in one shot?

Kind of Like the "MegaShare" jackpot system that Galaxy has.

Can you imagine 100 players simultaneously sharing a a $25 Million for $250,000 each - a Quarter million Each one? One hundred lucky players get life-changing experiences!...wow...

I played Pai Gow 8 at G2E and have to say that I came away with a distincitively different take than I had when I read about it on the thread.

First, it wasn't nearly as difficult/intimidating to play as I thought it would be in reading about it. Now that may be that I am such a bad PGP player that I don't recognized all the nuances, but I was very comfortable setting the 8 - 10 hands that I played.

Second, the name grew on me. Pai Gow 8 does perfectly describe the game and that is what is most important in naming a game. "Master's Pai Gow" is a still a good name, but based on the lack of intimidation factor in playing the game, I don't think it fits as well as I thought when I first read the thread.

You do get bigger hands, obviously, with the 8th card and full poker hand potentials up top, and that was an exciting part to the game. I wonder if you played a lot of Pai Gow 8 if you would want to go back to normal 7 card PGP? There is something more fun about comparing larger hands in PG8 that will be lacking when playing normal PGP. Imagine three of a kind with a three card flush up top. These types of hands are possible and not anomalies in PG8.

I didn't really evaluate the side bets when playing, but a player did get a King High Pai Gow while I was at the table. That was a nice 15-1 hit.

I think Dan may have another pretty nice niche product here. I can see this variant carving out a following and sitting along side a pit of EZ PGP & Fortune PGP. There will be PGP purist that won't accept this change, but I bet you will also get some players that think they won't like it to give the game a try and some of those will be converts that won't go back. Are there enough of these players? Well that is the question every game has to answer.

Deleted during a lucid interval !

DEQ will be coming out will more products after G2E to fill out the product line.
EZ Baccarat and EZ Pai Gow are proven winners.
Both Match-31 and Pai Gow-8 are strong games.
Buster blackjack has potential, and it allows 25c unit bets on its BJ progressive.
I thought what was shown was very strong.

Quote: buzzpaff

" But in all honesty I was disappointed by DEQ at G2E. Hopefully I was alone in feeling that way ?

I was only disappointed by the way they ran their booth. They would see a much better response if they had dealers manning all tables at all times (ie Shufflemaster). I approached the MoneySuit table a couple of times....and nothing.

Oscar

Many booths without dealers are run for executives to talk first, before jumping on a game for a demo from vendor personnel, most of whom are ex-casino personnel.
A demo will always be given on request, and it avoids time spent on too many "John Q. Public" non-executive dealing sessions.

This is no slight to anyone; only casino operator executives can purchase or lease a game, and request that a game can be installed into a casino. Nonetheless, anyone can request that a game be dealt, and almost always, it is obliged.

Deleted during a lucid interval !

Quote: buzzpaff

Are you implying that Shufflemaster and Galaxy gaming had it all wrong? I beg to differ !

I said no such thing. You're implying it.

What I said is that DEQ ran its booth the way they saw fit - and did very well with it also.

Many people played all the games when requested, and they had no problems.
DEQ did not set up their demo tables with dealers for dead games, as they met with prospective customers, and demo-ed the games as needed.

Deleted during a lucid interval !

Quote: buzzpaff

Dan, this was my first G2E, but not my first dog and pony show or exhibit hall. That fat guy leaning his gut against the money 31
was not professional.

The "fat guy" - as you call him - has been my business partner for years, and is one of the sharpest, most respected, and brightest guys in the business. I think you calling gaming executives who are unknown to you as simply "fat guys" - is both very inappropriate and unprofessional, and not appreciated!

Quote: buzzpaff

Or the 2 guys drinking coffee on one table, backs to the crowd. I do know you do not want tables filled with dead heads, but at Galaxy and Shufflemaster the tables were never crowded. Saw many a salesman set a prospect down and pitch to him, while the dealer was dealing as well.

I was also at the Galaxy booth, where my other game "Lucky Win Baccarat" side bet and progressive system was on display. The dealers in dealer get-up were indeed helpful, but they were not experienced in gaming sales, or in gaming mathematics or in game design. All of the technical discussion and sales discussion, as well as a lot of the dealing, were done by me, Dean, and Gary of Galaxy for that game in any case. As for DEQ, the DEQ personnel were very well versed in all their products, and were professional across the board.

Quote: buzzpaff

Only DEQ knows the result, but I think the other way, having a chance at new prospects is worth the effort.

New prospects were dealt the game. I dealt Pai Gow-8 to new prospects, some of whom were not in a position to buy the game, without any problem or issue, as did others at DEQ.

Quote: buzzpaff

And it was obvious to me some of the buyers were players as well and preferred trying the game themselves.

They were given the opportunity, as mentioned. Paradigm here at this board - and earlier in this thread - discussed being dealt Pai Gow-8 above, even though he is not a corporate buyer for a casino outfit, and had kind things to say about the game and about DEQ also.

Quote: buzzpaff

I think the money spend by Shufflemaster on eye candy and Galaxy for dealers in costume was money well spent.

Yes and no. Corporate Procurement casino officers visiting here in Las Vegas generally get their "eye candy" AFTER the show, so to speak, and are here to look at games, not boobs.
At the gaming booths, they generally want to have their gaming-related questions answered by the gaming executives who are behind the products they are considering, and not by a blond in a corset who wasn't hired for her technical background. There are pro's and con's to each, and while eye candy may be a draw to some, and may help, the flash and sizzle really have to be in the table games themselves. The "sales EV" of eye candy is actually not that high.

Quote: buzzpaff

There was ample room for schmoozing the prospects without having to remove all dealers. Wanna start a poll and see what others thought of DEG exhibit ?

You can if you want, but it wouldn't prove much of a point.

The poll that was real important is in the order books from the show, and from the business cards inserted into our Rolodex's and I-Phones. In this regard, DEQ did a very fine job. All professional distributor did, too.

First off, let me preface this post with the fact that I like DEQ......they are doing a lot of things right and from a "game offering" perspective, I liked their new game offerings at the Show, particularly PG8 (I have some comments on the others, but don't want to hijack this thread). While I did have to wait at the Match 31 table for someone to come over to deal, after just a few minutes a sales guy did come over and was as helpful as he could be. And then Steve Jones stepped in to deal and he really knows each of the offerings quite well and did a great job explaining them.

I also understand what Dan is saying regarding dealer staffing at every table. There is obviously a desire for the distributors to get quality time with executives vs. non-executives. It is certainly a valid point of view, I just don't agree with it.

Besides executives and true decision making customers, there are deal staff/shift personnel from properties, promotion personnel or a variety of other casino employees that cannot make the decision to lease a game, but can influence overall impression of a game on a property. If these folks need to ask for a demonstration as opposed to walking up to a table with a dedicated dealer, they may just decide not to approach the table. This limits the exposure of a new game and that cannot be a good thing.

Particularly with new games like Pai Gow 8 and Match 31, you want as many people, even John Q's, to play the game in an attempt to create a buzz. You never know who John Q/Dealer Staff/Shift Mgr. may talk to about the game away from the Show.

I know that at SHFL, there was a couple of times I was asked to get up from a table as an executive team from a major property was coming over to view the game I was playing. No worries....or course I am going to get up. The model/dealer was usually removed from the game at that point as well and one of the SHFL sales execs took over the dealing and game explanation.....there was a real customer in place and it was time to close an order.

I think once you have rented the size of space at G2E that SHFL, Galaxy & DEQ are doing, it makes sense to make your table games demonstrations as open and unimposing as possible to allow anyone to easily demo a new game. Let's face it, unless you have an interest in the industry, trying out 20 new games isn't the most fun you are going to have in a day. The only reason you would go through the process at all three booths is because you are somehow connected to the business.....either you work at a casino, are in the development business, are a table games player, etc. Every one of those folks are people a distributor should want to get to know their new games. Make it easy for them to do so by not having to ask for a demonstration.

Everyone who approached both DEQ and Galaxy were treated finely and given great consideration.
I dealt and explained games to slot company personnel who were not potential buyers, and to non-gaming people at the show, and I never saw a single instance of any brush-off what so ever. To say otherwise, I am doubtful.

Now, it may have taken a "may you demo the game for me?" to get this done, and such a request was never - and I mean never rejected.
But such a request is more likely to come from an exec, than from a non-gaming person, and yes, all requests were obliged. All people were approachable, and no, it was not always necessary to have people constantly standing at military attention at dead tables all of the time for any booth to be approachable. Casino executives or industry reporters are "suits" - and approach fellow suits with ease and comfort.

Again, anyone at all who wanted a demo got one, we ALL practiced our pitches and sold to the world.

I will also state that the majority of serious discussion took place both before and after a demo, answering such questions as:
"Where is it installed?"
"what would a field trial entail?"
"what is the monthly rental, and what kind of a break can I get from you guys?" (- which you may not want to answer in front of a full table!)
etc.

The DEQ approach was a valid way to go as was the SHFL & Galaxy way. I can attest that I was treated very well on my first visit to the booth to play Match 31, despite waiting a few minutes for someone to come over.

When I went back to play PG8, I just walked up and asked Steve if he would deal for me as I knew he had all the answers. What I got was a professional explanation of the game, hand examples illustrating various situations that will come up during game play and the niche DEQ thinks the game will fill. In short, a great demo!

Quote: Paradigm

The DEQ approach was a valid way to go as was the SHFL & Galaxy way. I can attest that I was treated very well on my first visit to the booth to play Match 31, despite waiting a few minutes for someone to come over.

When I went back to play PG8, I just walked up and asked Steve if he would deal for me as I knew he had all the answers. What I got was a professional explanation of the game, hand examples illustrating various situations that will come up during game play and the niche DEQ thinks the game will fill. In short, a great demo!

Thanks for the kind words.
I think what is clear here is that ALL demos giving by the game designer, or by a sales professional, is very helpful for the real casino exec who is serious about picking up the game via some knowledgable Q & A; the "eye candy for hire" can show the game, and yes, you get a taste for the game, and with a bit of tit-illation.

But a serious game exec who is in position to buy the game gets the game very quickly via the documentation and some quick play, a short demo. Discussions of price, historical performance from existing installs, price breaks, etc, are often done away from the table. You can be in an awkward position if both a Boyd exec and a Stations exec are within earshot of one another, or an MGM and a Harrah's exec are together, etc. You want both a short and adequate demo, and a longer business discussion.

And you have to give credit to the distributors, where the "little guy" - the first time game designer - gets his shot at some real casino installs with professional support and backing.

Dan, maybe I missed it, but do you have a link to a website that we can play the game on?

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Quote: SOOPOO

Dan, maybe I missed it, but do you have a link to a website that we can play the game on?

No - actually we don't. If DEQ developes a website that includes it, I would tell my distributor that I am pleased and impressed.

They move at their own pace, and I am not looking to cause strife or conflict with them for distrubuting my game, as I am thankful that they do.

I will say this: I did play all of the SHFL games because of their attractive and always-present dealers. I did not play the DEQ/Galaxy games just because when I was walking by there didn't seem to be dealers available, or it wasn't convenient (they were doing a demo for casino ppl, etc.)

For John Q. Public, SHFL provided the best experience. I felt sorry for the poor male dealer staffing that "blackjack straight" game, though. (Awful bet, but I have a feeling SHFL knows that by now...)

Reviving this thread to ask; have there been/are there any installs coming out? I think :PaiGow8 looks toasty fun, and I would travel to play it. Thanks!

Quote: beachbumbabs

Reviving this thread to ask; have there been/are there any installs coming out? I think :PaiGow8 looks toasty fun, and I would travel to play it. Thanks!

And Thanks You! I do appreciate the kind words!

And No, there are NO installs. And I consider this game my strongest and finest effort as a game designer. It plays so well that the success of EZ Pai Gow may be muted, should it get installs, certainly in a serious Pai Gow market like Washington State, California, or the East Coast.

It is a hot, interesting, and just a screaming "next generation" type of full-poker Pai Gow poker game.

It was not distributed, and against the intentions of my signing with them in good faith, operating as a business with another publicly operating business.
I know the reason.

I am seriously looking into this situation, and will take the actions that I can.
I will deal with this soon.

Have to admit, first time I played PGP I thought a 2 card poker hand was fairly silly and pretty boring. Then 3CP came along and I thought that was pretty fun to be able to hit straights and flushes with greater frequency. It definitely crossed my mind that 5/2 split of PGP could be changed for the better. Good luck on this one- I've always liked games where the average hand is better than 1 pair. I played some basic video poker a while back and felt like I was watching the paint dry.

Quote: 21Revolution

Have to admit, first time I played PGP I thought a 2 card poker hand was fairly silly and pretty boring. Then 3CP came along and I thought that was pretty fun to be able to hit straights and flushes with greater frequency. It definitely crossed my mind that 5/2 split of PGP could be changed for the better. Good luck on this one- I've always liked games where the average hand is better than 1 pair. I played some basic video poker a while back and felt like I was watching the paint dry.

This is a very good observation: the shorter and less dynamic the low side of the hand, the less dynamic the game. I was never fond of Mini Pai Gow with its 1/5 hand split. That game often became a battle of Pai Gow hands - boring. It made the game less interesting.

Looking the other way, increasing the low side's length while keeping the full five card high hand in Pai Gow 8 made for very interesting and richer full hands, - and game. Surprisingly, the strategy and house way became simpler while having more hand setting options.

Some things I liked as improvements in Pai Gow 8:

Copies became virtually non-existent.
Pai Gow type hands were really rare, from 17% to 7.8% (from one in 6, to one in 13). The Pai Gow insurance bet on it has a very generous pay table.
The vast majority of hands were two pair or better, and have multiple ways to be set.
Five player positions (like a typical Blackjack table) makes for less crowded tables, and increases speed to the next round. One less position to wait through and process.
You have REAL flexibility in creating a progressive system!