Riverboat Roulette -- Roulette with Place Bets / Multiple Spin Wagers
Quote: doubleluckFirst off you said you never made the comment about a player lasting 40 minutes
Noooo, I said I never said I studied the game
for 40min. Big difference. Of course I remember
making a 40min comment, just not the one you
said I did. I'm always there at least 2 hours, usually
more.
Quote: EvenBobNoooo, I said I never said I studied the game
for 40min. Big difference. Of course I remember
making a 40min comment, just not the one you
said I did. I'm always there at least 2 hours, usually
more.
Bob....you clearly stated that MOST players last 40 mins......you also stated you studied the game for a year. That's all I'm saying....but please don't now try to come up with some new measure of time once I show you what you said. I just put two and two together.
The bottom line is that you've already proven my point last night on what players would do with respect to the new multiple-spin wagers -- you stated that they'd bet 2 or 3 of the neighborhoods and then went on the "guarantee" it. All I've ever said is that the design of the game is to (1) provide a multiple spin element to roulette and (2) raise the average bet per spin.
Quote: doubleluckAdditionally, I'm skeptical that you truly concerned yourself with the number of spins per hour
Sigh. I write everything down, when I start, number
of spins, dealer changes, bets I make, numbers that
were spun, when I quit. Its automatic. None of its
a concern and all of it is. If its not a large enough
sample, do your own work. Maybe you'll come out
with 21 spins an hour, or 19. But its won't be
significantly different from what I've found.
Quote: doubleluckBob....you clearly stated that MOST players last 40 mins..
Yup, thats about right. Thats about how long it takes
them to blow their buy in on a busy table. Do the
research, maybe you'll find its 42min. Or 38min.
Whatever.
Quote: EvenBobYup, thats about right. Thats about how long it takes
them to blow their buy in on a busy table. Do the
research, maybe you'll find its 42min. Or 38min.
Whatever.
I'm just saying that this "average" would include YOU! So you're studies would only be for roughly 40 minutes per day for a year OR after lasting only 40 mins, you then hung around the casino to merely study and collect data on the game.
Quote: doubleluck
I don't disregard everything you say completely, after all roulette is YOUR game. However, let me be clear, I stated that I have a problem with your notebook being used as a "proof source". You claim you studied the game for a YEAR.....if by your own standards, the average player lasts 40 minutes (which would include you), then that amount of time equates to 10 days in an entire year if you played every day for 365 days (which I also doubt you did).
Quote: doubleluckI'm just saying that this "average" would include YOU! So you're studies would only be for roughly 40 minutes per day for a year OR after lasting only 40 mins, you then hung around the casino to merely study and collect data on the game.
Here's your logical flaw. The observer here is not the average player. It's incorrect to assume the person making the observation that the average player spends 40 minutes at the game is himself exactly typical of the average player. Not least as the word average is a conglomerate of all the people involved. If I tell you the average British male is 1.72m tall, and I've measured 2,000 of them, it does not follow that I am 1.72m tall, even if my observations include my own height.
You might claim 2,000 measurements is not enough. I suspect it would be close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades, provided my sampling method was relatively random. Follow that with a secondary confirmation of a security expert, and I'm not sure what we are disputing here? 25, 27, 30 spins an hour? All that matters is an idea of what change your extra bet would make to that statistic. Only a floor trial would help you establish that... and if (as those who play roulette will attest to) if the dealer is spending more time explaining the bet, repeatedly, it's got to have an effect on the bottom line.
I'd suggest 7:5 pay offs just aren't attractive (especially if you consider your house edge can be divided by the average number of spins between resolutions of the bet... if the house has a 4% edge on a bet that takes 10 spins to average, each spin is only work 0.4% to the house).
I like the general idea, but I'm a craps player if I play at all, and roulette bores me. I would play your bet only if I was playing with my hardcore roulette playing friend. Otherwise I'd just be playing 29 and the neighbours like I normally do.
Quote: doubleluckWe have a version of the game where the white spaces are situated in the exact manner that you're speaking of (as well as many other ways...and different variations of where to put the two red and two black singletons). However, we felt that it may prevent players from betting all the neighborhoods that are connected together. We think people will see those three colored neighborhoods on each side of the wheel and think...."Look if I bet all 12 of these, I have 12 ways to win and only 8 ways to lose!" or "If I bet ALL those colors, I'll have 24 ways to win and only 8 ways to lose....this game is beatable!!! I'm now a 3-to-1 FAVORITE". We just grouped them together because "visually speaking" it's a little more enticing. Conversely, by breaking them up it may not have the same visual appeal.
That makes sense.
Quote: doubleluckThanks for the feedback with respect to the 14 white spaces. We like the 3:2 pay out but we didn't want to have any new bet that exceeded the traditional 5.26% HE. However, that is still something we may consider.
Then make it 8-5; the HA is now only 4.2%.
I still think the main thing to change is the color of the "light blue" space on the table - it needs to be closer to the color on the wheel. You especially have to take the lighting inside of the casino into account (and this might apply to comparing blue and purple, or even orange and yellow to a degree, as well).
Quote: ThatDonGuyThat makes sense.
Then make it 8-5; the HA is now only 4.2%.
I still think the main thing to change is the color of the "light blue" space on the table - it needs to be closer to the color on the wheel. You especially have to take the lighting inside of the casino into account (and this might apply to comparing blue and purple, or even orange and yellow to a degree, as well).
Thanks DonGuy
Quote: thecesspitHere's your logical flaw. The observer here is not the average player. It's incorrect to assume the person making the observation that the average player spends 40 minutes at the game is himself exactly typical of the average player. Not least as the word average is a conglomerate of all the people involved. If I tell you the average British male is 1.72m tall, and I've measured 2,000 of them, it does not follow that I am 1.72m tall, even if my observations include my own height.
You might claim 2,000 measurements is not enough. I suspect it would be close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades, provided my sampling method was relatively random. Follow that with a secondary confirmation of a security expert, and I'm not sure what we are disputing here? 25, 27, 30 spins an hour? All that matters is an idea of what change your extra bet would make to that statistic. Only a floor trial would help you establish that... and if (as those who play roulette will attest to) if the dealer is spending more time explaining the bet, repeatedly, it's got to have an effect on the bottom line.
I'd suggest 7:5 pay offs just aren't attractive (especially if you consider your house edge can be divided by the average number of spins between resolutions of the bet... if the house has a 4% edge on a bet that takes 10 spins to average, each spin is only work 0.4% to the house).
I like the general idea, but I'm a craps player if I play at all, and roulette bores me. I would play your bet only if I was playing with my hardcore roulette playing friend. Otherwise I'd just be playing 29 and the neighbours like I normally do.
Thanks!
Quote: doubleluckI'm just saying that this "average" would include YOU! .
I track far more than I play, always have. Thats
how you learn.
if I can make a dice reference, Craps vs. NO Craps. Craps has a lower HE and holds less, but the players demand more craps games than is competitor No craps. Although the game has a lower HE and holds a smaller % of money it still makes so much more money because of the Drop. So by this example, I don't know why everyone here thinks that the lower HE is a huge concer. If it gets a chance, the players have a higher demand for it, it willndrop more money and be more profitable that regular roulette.
Quote: CasinoboyJust because you have a notebook doesn't make you the expert that you claim or have tried to convince other you are.
Just becuase a frog can croak doesn't mean he's
an expert on frogs. But he can tell you a thing
or two about the subject, just the same.
Quote: CasinoboyI think I get the concept and like it for the most part. I think it's interesting that all other games, such as BJ, poker derivatives and yes even craps have other options for players to choose from.
if I can make a dice reference, Craps vs. NO Craps. Craps has a lower HE and holds less, but the players demand more craps games than is competitor No craps. Although the game has a lower HE and holds a smaller % of money it still makes so much more money because of the Drop.
Thanks Casinoboy....that's what we're trying to do but PLEASE don't bring up CRAPS in reference to this game. I already made that mistake and it confused nearly everyone!!!! (Except the Craps Players who said they wouldn't play it) lol
Quote: CasinoboyI would feel better about selling roulette to a new player if this were an option.
As a person who works in a pit, how would you "sell" this concept to a new roulette player? What about existing roulette players?
Quote: CasinoboyI stand behind the game 5 days a week for 8 hours a day. I see more in my observations than your notebook that you state you keep for 2 hours a day. I watch roulette for at least 4 times more than yourself and I privyed to data that you'll never see, .
Well put me in my place, then. Fire away with your
superior knowledge, I'm always in a position to
learn. Interested in hearing what you have to say.
Quote: CasinoboyRoulette is a very non intimidating game. Pick your favorite numbers and colors. If you want to play for a long time you should play the colors because they are a multi spin. After playing for a while, you can graduate to picking your favorite numbers.
What about the problem that others have brought up with the "odd" numbered payouts?
Quote: CasinoboyAfter playing for a while, you can graduate to picking your favorite numbers.
Thats what you recommend, playing your favorite numbers?
Quote: EvenBobThats what you recommend, playing your favorite numbers?
Bob, I KNOW you're not gonna "go there" now....after so doggedly claiming earlier that no one number has any more chances of hitting than any other!
I think people will make that trade off. Give up 12 for the multi spin and profit the same amount. Genius!!!
Quote: CasinoboyAfter playing for a while, you can graduate to picking your favorite numbers.
Thats what you recommend, playing your favorite numbers? Why
is that?
Quote: CasinoboyAs far as the 8:5 pay outs, if a player bets 20, $1 bets, and he won, he would profit $16.(win $35 and lose $19) in the case of betting $10 on 2 separate colors, he would still profit $16. The trade off would be 20 numbers vs. 8. I hope I am correct if i understand.
I think people will make that trade off. Give up 12 for the multi spin and profit the same amount. Genius!!!
You are correct and Thanks!!!!
Quote: EvenBobThats what you recommend, playing your favorite numbers? Why
is that?
You've asked plenty of questions. Let me ask what you would tell a new player. You want them to bet sections. That's funny if you would because you berated this guy for having sections on the wheel to make it visual for the players.
So how would you explain how to bet to a new player?
Quote: EvenBobThats what you recommend, playing your favorite numbers? Why
is that?
C'mon Bob...you've already stated many times in this thread that no one number is more likely to hit than the other. So, what's wrong with doing what most roulette players do by betting their favorite numbers, birthdays, ages, anniversaries, or favorite sports player's jersey number? Unless, of course, you bet the "neighborhoods".
What do YOU bet on?!?!
Quote: CasinoboyYou've asked plenty of questions.
Two is plenty? Seriously?
Quote: CasinoboyLet me ask what you would tell a new player.
You're answering my two questions with a question?
Thats no answer.
Quote: EvenBobYou're answering my two questions with a question?
Thats no answer.
Kinda like the answers you've provided me regarding the questions I've asked of you -- completely ignored. If some of our new multi-spin bets shouldn't be on the game because they are lower than the traditional 5.26% HE, then answer my question about whether a single zero roulette game should be offered since now EVERY bet is below that amount.
Bob, does a single zero roulette game belong on the gaming floor or not?
Bob, how do YOU bet?
Quote: EvenBobTwo is plenty? Seriously?
You're answering my two questions with a question?
Thats no answer.
roulette players, like yourself, are very unsifisticated and simple minded.
Players who play roulette for the first time bet red or black. They lose quickly.
Their next visit they graduate to the dozens because they read the strategy somewhere online. They bet 2 units to win 1. This allows them more time on devise and they get to watch players get large payouts pushed their way, not necessarily winning.
Then they return and bet their favorite numbers or birthdays. As the grow they start looking at the wheel as apposed to the layout and then begin to bet the wheel.
I can see this idea breeding new play and getting to the inside sooner because the player will get more time on devise.
If I'm asked how to play I would tell them my previous response. If I'm ask what gives me the best chance to win, I would tell them to section the wheel.
Either way this concept helps with both explanations.
Quote: doubleluck
Bob, does a single zero roulette game belong on the gaming floor or not?
You're job is to sell the casino on the idea that
your game has a HE less than the HE they've
known come to know and love. Some casinos
have single zero roulette available, at a much
higher min bet and very restricted hours of
operation. If it started to become real popular,
they would get rid of it. The ones I've seen
open usually have no players or just 1 or 2.
Mostly they have none.
Quote: EvenBobYou're job is to sell the casino on the idea that
your game has a HE less than the HE they've
known come to know and love. Some casinos
have single zero roulette available, at a much
higher min bet and very restricted hours of
operation. If it started to become real popular,
they would get rid of it. The ones I've seen
open usually have no players or just 1 or 2.
Mostly they have none.
So is that a Yes, No, or Maybe? Which wheel would you play -- single or double zero?
Quote: EvenBobYou're job is to sell the casino on the idea that
your game has a HE less than the HE they've
known come to know and love. Some casinos
have single zero roulette available, at a much
higher min bet and very restricted hours of
operation. If it started to become real popular,
they would get rid of it. The ones I've seen
open usually have no players or just 1 or 2.
Mostly they have none.
Higher min.
Higher avg bet. Just As he's claiming.
My job is to get buts in the seats and have the edge on all bets. Give them options and hope they arent smart enough or disciplined enough not to make common betting errors
How many times do you play the basket??
Quote: doubleluckSo is that a Yes, No, or Maybe? Which wheel would you play -- single or double zero?
Depends which is busier. If the single zero wheel
has no players it doesn't interest me.
Quote: Casinoboyhope they arent smart enough or disciplined enough not to make common betting errors
How many times do you play the basket??
Whats a common betting error in roulette? I've
never bet the basket nor seen anybody bet it.
Most people don't know it exists.
Quote: EvenBobDepends which is busier. If the single zero wheel
has no players it doesn't interest me.
What interests you about a busy table or any empty one?
Quote: doubleluckWhat interests you about a busy table or any empty one?
Why do think the single zero wheel is empty?
Nobody likes playing at an empty table, including
me. You have to bet every spin and many people
don't like that.
Quote: EvenBobWhats a common betting error in roulette? I've
never bet the basket nor seen anybody bet it.
Most people don't know it exists.
The basket, that's why I asked you. Why dont people know it exists. Because the dealers and floors don't sell it cause it's a bad bet.
So for that rationale, dealers and floors alike would sell better bets.
Quote: EvenBobWhy do think the single zero wheel is empty?
Nobody likes playing at an empty table, including
me. You have to bet every spin and many people
don't like that.
Gotcha....Thanks!
Quote: CasinoboyDaily, I tell people basic strategy and they don't follow it, I tell people to place a min. Flat bet with max odds and they never do. I tell people not to play side bets, the majority do. I tell people never bet the tie, they still do,, I would tell these people to only bet the orange and blue, but in my experience they won't listen either.
LOL! True!! You guys in the suits are only working for the house and giving me "bad" advice so you can take more of my money!!!!
So I am going to try and figure out what I would do in your place today. With the money and time you and your brother have already invested. People always say " I know what I would do if that happened to me ". BULLSHIT
In times of real stress or hardship you THINK you know what you will do. But you are usually wrong. Twice I was sure what I would do and wound up in handcuffs in the back of a cop car. Years later, after I had switched over to the Dark Side, I got a 3 day suspension
for telling a boss what i thought of him, despite knowing I would never do that in front of witnesses. But I did.
Noticeably absent from this thread, and I know 2 of the following are aware of it , are Roger Snow , Mr. Casino Games, and SWITCH.
Mr. Casino Games is a very nice guy as you can tell just watching his chip trick videos on You Tube.
Switch is a gentleman in the true meaning of the word.
We will skip Roger for now.
Stephen and Geoff have no interests in busting your bubble. Now me, being NICE or a gentleman, was never my long suit.
EvenBob. Face, SOOPOO, and others have offered you very constructive criticism.
But so far you want to argue more than listen.
Were I in your position I would immediately go to SMI website and enter your game for submission. If you do not have a patent number as requested type in any numbers. Fill out the forms and submit all the info. Sign the release,
( Like somebody might want to steal this idea ! ) Wait a week, then email Roger and BEG for a 15 minute audience.
If he can convince DJteddybear to think anew, perhaps he can enlighten you. But I doubt it.
Or seek out another distributor and get some feedback from an expert.
Strongly suggest you do this before G2E. WHY ? Because afterwards the cat will be out of the bag, and you will find distributor's doors closed to you.
Paigowdan is also missing on this thread. Another nice guy trying not to stop you from chasing your dreams.
But this game is not a dream, it's a nightmare.
Quote: Casinoboydealers and floors alike would sell better bets.
Whats a better bet that they should be selling?
Good luck!!!
Quote: EvenBobWhats a better bet that they should be selling?
Colored, multi spin bets are a better bet for a player.
Goodnight all!!
Quote: CasinoboyColored, multi spin bets are a better bet for a player.
In other words, you don't have a clue. Thats what I thought.
Quote: CasinoboyDouble luck, I hope it's sucessful and you get some interest in it for an install. Everyone has an opinion here, including me, but you only have to convence one person to get it in.!
Look, you've convinced some 24 year old kid that you have
a great game. Time to hire a patent attorney and get
a real patent.
Quote: buzzpaffStephen and Geoff have no interests in busting your bubble. Now me, being NICE or a gentleman, was never my long suit.
EvenBob. Face, SOOPOO, and others have offered you very constructive criticism.
But so far you want to argue more than listen.
This.
This game is your baby, and I imagine anyone taking a harsh stance against your baby, as EvenBob has done, must sting. Trust me, you want more Bob responses than Casinoboy responses (no disrespect intended). The guys who you must pitch to are going to be much harsher than anyone here, you might as well take some on the chin now in preparation.
EB is one guy, yes, but he's the real deal. In the two+ years I've been here, Roulette's been his only bag. His method of play, how he bets, none of that is relevant and it's distrating from what should be the point - the man's seen a lot at the table. His quote of 25-ish spins jives with what I've seen today. That's a valuable piece of info for you to have in determining possible value of your bet, and it'd be remiss of you to dismiss it.
Same goes for me. I'm just one guy. I've only been doing this for 4 years, and obviously don't spend all 8hrs a day on Roulette or even on Table Games. But my quotes on money lost and how Roulette is by FAR the loss leader is REAL info. A game you describe as "not complicated", which I agree with, somehow blows the other games away in dollar amount of mistakes. I'm talking 3 to 4 times more than every carnival game combined, at the least. I'm only one source, and expert at nothing, but you should take as much as you can from this one data point.
The info isn't always pleasant and the delivery is sometimes less so, but as I'm sure successful game designer PaiGowDan would say, it's only going to get worse. Roll with these punches from the peanut gallery so you can survive the slugs from the big dogs.
Quote: EvenBobWhy do think the single zero wheel is empty?
Nobody likes playing at an empty table, including
me. You have to bet every spin and many people
don't like that.
I missed this reply earlier. Double luck already stated the adv. Of the "social" game. Like u said, you don't like an empty game, neither does the casino. So by adding betting options that have a house edge above 2.0 and it is a multi spin, will allow the tables to be more crowded and invite players to the table like yourself.
Quote: FaceTrust me, you want more Bob responses than Casinoboy responses (no disrespect intended). The guys who you must pitch to are going to be much harsher than anyone here, you might as well take some on the chin now in preparation.
Roll with these punches from the peanut gallery so you can survive the slugs from the big dogs.
Face....that's exactly why I came here. I knew what I was in store for! However, I believe that I should consider both Bob's and CB's thoughts equally since one is a player and the other from "the darkside". ;)
