Free Bet Blackjack
Quote: DJTeddyBearI think this is better described as the ONLY craps variation. And as far as popular goes, doesn't it have less than half a dozen installs?
It's big in Tunica and sporadic in Missouri. I think every casino in Tunica has a table of it, including the smaller ones.
There was also that "Rock n Roll" dice which was played on a BJ style table with less betting options. I think that would qualify as a variation.
Quote: doubleluckI believe the recreational blackjack player will have no problem with the push on 22 aspect of the game......how many times have we all sat at the blackjack table and heard the statement, "A push is a win"?
That statement is right out of the casino's handbook and we've all heard it. I sometimes use it myself when the pit boss is around. A push is not a win to me. If I knew in advance that I was going to push every hand, I wouldn't bother showing up.
I couldn't care less about comps.
Quote: PokeraddictHow many hands can you resplit to? Can you resplit aces? Are they all on the house? If I split into two+ hands of 9-11 does the house cover all the splits and double downs assuming it was not a split I had to pay for?
Yes, you can have up to 7 free bets on each hand.
It still has to prove itself although the initial signs are looking very promising. This first weekend will be a big test to see how the masses perceive the game ... I will update after the weekend.
As I read manual, I had the following thought....if you are dealt 9/9 against a dealer 6 up card, can you split for free and then double for free before receiving your next card?
I wouldn't think you could get two free bet lammers on the same hand, but if you split 9's for free and have two single card 9's as a result, it would seem like you could double for free on that 9. That would be too good to be true.......isn't it?
Quote: ParadigmI think you answered this on other thread....No doubles on one card totals, right?
Correct.
Quote: 1BBThat statement is right out of the casino's handbook and we've all heard it. I sometimes use it myself when the pit boss is around. A push is not a win to me. If I knew in advance that I was going to push every hand, I wouldn't bother showing up.
I couldn't care less about comps.
My sentiments exactly....The house loves that mythology -- players risking money and the house doesn't have to pay, all while the player believes that a "tie" is somehow a positive outcome.
Comps? I'll take chips instead!
Quote: buzzpaffBut, but : I mean 6 to 5 is more than 3 to 2, isn't it ??? The numbers are bigger.
This is classic. I love this board....
Quote: buzzpaffQuote: bigfoot66You are right, I edited to reflect what I meant to say, which is 6:5 BJ. Unfortunately I think it is pretty clear that the market cannot support 3:2 single deck games in all but the mid/low end of the most competitive markets (Laughlin, El Cortez, parts of Reno)
The market can support. It is the casino's who choose not to. As long as customer are willing to play 6/5 casinos will offer it.
And there are no licenses fees for a casinos to play. The fish continue to play even when the dealer hits soft 17. Seems I should be using a P T Barnum quote here !
Well that's not exactly how markets work. The casino would prefer to offer games with a 100% house edge, the player would prefer games with an infinte player edge. The games that casinos actually end up offering profitably is the compromise, or equilibrium. It really doesn't matter what your opinion is, it is very easy to see what the market will support, you look! It is an emperical question. So, we can confidently say that the market does not support 3:2 single deck BJ games on the strip right now, except at the Riveria.
Quote: bigfoot66So, we can confidently say that the market does not support 3:2 single deck BJ games on the strip right now, except at the Riveria.
I get where you're going with this, but I think your wording that "the market doesn't support 3:2 BJ" is misguided. The market WOULD support the game, except the casinos don't want to offer it. It would be like saying the market doesn't support $.99 Shrimp cocktails.. they DO, but it's not profitable to the casino as it no longer would be a loss leader.
It's more appropriate to say the current market conditions do not make 3:2 BJ a viable option for casinos.
Quote: bigfoot66Well that's not exactly how markets work. The casino would prefer to offer games with a 100% house edge, the player would prefer games with an infinte player edge.
There is something to an effect of a game "being enjoyable to play." Players would love a 0% house edge betting option, but no version of a "coin flip" game or "paper, rock, scizzors" has hit the casino pits, outside of cinema.
Quote: bigfootThe games that casinos actually end up offering profitably is the compromise, or equilibrium.
True, but that equilibrium is not based on theorhetical house edge. I deal craps, and the high house edge prop bets get globs of action, while people seldom go beyond 2X odds in a house that offers 10x crap odds. People walk up to a table and say, "That game is fun to play." No one walks up to a table and says, "Well, the house edge on the main bet 2.867732160052873%, but the house edge on that other game is 2.4776290132, so I'll play that second game...' except for Mike and CRM.... (Well, CRM plays full 10x odds on just pass and come bets with no prop bets. Good for him!)
Simply put, the equilibrium is determined by the table's action after having a positive table hold.
I am constantly amazed at home many intelligent people are named Charles.
Buzz Paff
Quote: buzzpaffStupid question time from Grand Junction's village idiot ? Does Free Bet use the European no-hole-card option ??
It does in the UK version but in the US it is standard hole card rules.
Quote: PaigowdanTrue, but that equilibrium is not based on theorhetical house edge. I deal craps, and the high house edge prop bets get globs of action, while people seldom go beyond 2X odds in a house that offers 10x crap odds. People walk up to a table and say, "That game is fun to play." No one walks up to a table and says, "Well, the house edge on the main bet 2.867732160052873%, but the house edge on that other game is 2.4776290132, so I'll play that second game...' except for Mike and CRM.... (Well, CRM plays full 10x odds on just pass and come bets with no prop bets. Good for him!)
Simply put, the equilibrium is determined by the table's action after having a positive table hold.
You are correct here. Hell, I do it myself, in fact the other day I parlayed a $3 hard 6 into a $20 hard 6 and won a pile of money, but I scoff at other Baccarat players who bet on 'player' occassionally. Don't they know bank has a lower house edge?
The point I was trying to make is that all people want as much stuff and money as they can get, there is no limit to human desires. Also, markets are made up of sellers (casinos) and buyers (players). The price (theoretical win per hour) has to be acceptable to both sides. A lot of times people use the term "there is a market for" to mean "there is demand for" but this is slightly incorrect. Transactions must be taking place for there to be a market in something. There is demand for time travel, there is not a market for time travel because there are no sellers.
So, this is basically a technical argument that I am right to say that "there is no market for 3:2 single deck BJ at mid to high end resorts in LV." The demand exists, but no one is interested in offering it.
Quote: WizardMy page on Free Bet Blackjack is up. Please have a look. As always, I welcome all comments and corrections.
I don't see any spelling or gramar errors but let others look as well, been doing simplistic computer work all night at work.
On the strategy cards one thing seems confusing to me. I don't quite get the "always split" at the bottom of the grid. Might be because my eyballs are very tired, but I don't see what it it trying to convey. That is my $.02.
Quote: AZDuffmanI don't quite get the "always split" at the bottom of the grid. Might be because my eyballs are very tired, but I don't see what it it trying to convey. That is my $.02.
I was trying to say to split ... always. However, I should have said "free split" always. The player should also do a normal split with 4s against a 5 or 6.
Quote: WizardMy page on Free Bet Blackjack is up. Please have a look. As always, I welcome all comments and corrections.
Where is the part where you tell us how too count down the shoe and find a high likely hood of doubles and splits? A guy can hope can't he?
Quote: WizardMy page on Free Bet Blackjack is up. Please have a look. As always, I welcome all comments and corrections.
For clarity the strategy table should state 'Soft' on the lower chart to avoid confusion.
Steve found that 6 and 8 decks were almost identical in the house edge rather than +0.02% ... minor difference I know.
Blackjack Switch down from 3 tables to 1 in Blackhawk and that one's days are numbered. Will report more tomorrow on that and
Buffalo Bonus blackjack spreading almost as fast as the wildfires in Colorado.
Quote: SwitchSteve found that 6 and 8 decks were almost identical in the house edge rather than +0.02% ... minor difference I know.
I expect that adding two more decks would have an effect, but I am a little surprised that it helps the player (even if only a tiny amount). Would moving to 10 decks help even more?
The more decks there are, the more likely the player is to pair his cards. Just about any pair should be split (except 4/4 & T/T), so that's a free bet with every pair. That would be my intuitive explanation.Quote: AyecarumbaI expect that adding two more decks would have an effect, but I am a little surprised that it helps the player (even if only a tiny amount). Would moving to 10 decks help even more?
If you don't play in Europe, you might not be aware but in the UK it is correct to hit AA vs A, rather than split (although nearly 95% do split!) Thus when developing a strategy it is something you have to check/work out. Similarly hitting hard 17s and other plays that under regular blackjack one just doesn't do, sometimes is correct.Quote: bushman..."soft 12" hands...
Expanding further on teliot's explanation, if you compared the 2 extremes, single deck and infinite deck, then the probability of any pair is:-
Single - 1/17 = 5.88%
Infinite - 1/13 = 7.69%
As the Free Bet is so valuable then it makes a big difference as to how often it can appear.
Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks LOL
Quote: SwitchA, A should always be split in Free Bet so the chart should reflect this.
I gathered that, however, it seemed odd that under the Strategy Charts (both Real Money and Free Hand) for Soft Hands, the first entry is for "Soft 12 - 15." I would have suspected the entry to read "Soft 13 - 15", as a soft 12 must be A, A. I apologize. I am being persnickety.
Quote: bushmanI gathered that, however, it seemed odd that under the Strategy Charts (both Real Money and Free Hand) for Soft Hands, the first entry is for "Soft 12 - 15." I would have suspected the entry to read "Soft 13 - 15", as a soft 12 must be A, A. I apologize. I am being persnickety.
It's a valid point and hopefully Mike will see this and change the table accordingly.
Thanks.
The rules say one card to split aces so even if you can`t split anymore ie.. 4 splits, then you would have to stay on your AA,so it still seems wrong.Quote: bigfoot66Well, not exactly. There is a limit to the number of times one can split aces, so theoretically, he could end up with a pair of aces that he could not resplit.
Quote: frederickyis the nugget spreading the game 24 hours? If not when is it open?
It's open from around mid-day - 3am.
Quote: buzzpaffDoes Vegas offer the PUSH 22 side bet or is only to be available in Washington state ??
You're well informed Buzz ...
Golden Nugget will be adding the 'Push 22' side-bet after the trial.
Quote: frederickygame is fun and in this incarnation painless. makes you never want to play regular blackjack again.
And can faintly hear Geoff & Roger chuckling with glee....I think that is a cork being popped in the background ;-).....way to go gentlemen!
Quote: frederickyplayed the game for a few hours on both wednesday and thursday. at the end of the month i heard they will be removing free doubles on three or more cards which stinks, and instead giving us free splits on fours. everyone i saw lost in the long run over two days so really gonna miss those late free doubles. also if the hand signal for free doubles and free splits is determined to be two fingers spread tapping the table then my buddy helped come up with that. game is fun and in this incarnation painless. makes you never want to play regular blackjack again.
This change is actually all right from a game design point of view.
Allowing us to split 4's for free like other free split makes the game more uniform and easier to play and deal, removing an "exception quirk" from the game.
Removing the "free double 9 to 11 anytime" feature to "free double on 2 cards=9 to 11" is more in line with standard and known BJ anyway, again removing a rule "exception quirk," though it's a loss for the player, especially when facing a dealer's 6 or less. What the hell. We got the free splits on 4's when they happen now.
Should do great. Switch, any feedback?
Roger is a better game marketer than a game designer!!! There will always be even better games than Free Bet. If no one else does it, Geoff Hall, Paigowdan, Mr. CasinoGames or eTablegames will come out with something better than this one. The future? The future is in everyone's hand.Quote: PacmanIf you want to see the future of blackjack, go to the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas.
When you get there, just follow the noise. It's the only blackjack table that sounds like a craps table.
who gave u the idea that I don't like this game. I know this is Geoff's game loud and clear; his name is everywhere. I am saying there will be better games. There will always be better games, Mr. WongBo.Quote: WongBothis is not roger's game. ask geoff if he can come up with something better if you dont like this one
Firstly, thank you for the positive comments made by those who have played the game albeit early days. Michael, the champagne is still on ice and it will take a while before I un-cork it, me being the cautiously optimistic type :-)
Overall feedback from the game has been extremely encouraging with 100% positive player feedback to my knowledge. The one slight concern is the hold % which is lower than expected or desired - lower than their regular Blackjack even - again this is early days and the results could be slightly skewed as the game did have some AP play on it with the attractive low house edge.
Nevertheless, the free doubles and splits, which should be taken all of the time, reduce the playing errors on the table. The main errors are really down to hitting and standing incorrectly along with not taking 'Insurance'.
The introduction of splitting 4's along with eliminating multi-card 'free doubles' is twofold. One, as Dan says, is to bring the game completely in line with the rules of regular Blackjack - this will make training easier. The second is to increase the house edge slightly so that the hold can at least match the typical hold of a regular Blackjack table.
4's should still be 'free split' against all dealer up-cards and this will add around 0.3% to the player edge. Taking away the multi-card doubles will subtract around 0.6% from the player edge.
