stabworld
stabworld
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July 17th, 2015 at 8:59:11 AM permalink
I was 86'd at a Caesar's Entertainment property in Vegas a few months back for Advantage Play. They read me the trespassing act, I did not sign anything. I was told I am banned from stepping foot on any Caesars Entertainment Property, and if I do, I can be subject to arrest.

As it stands, in New Jersey, you cannot bar a card counter from your casino simply for card counting.

So my question would be: if I were to visit a Caesars Entertainment Property casino in A.C., (NJ), could they arrest me on trespassing, being that I was 86'd from a Vegas Caesar's Entertainment property for card counting?

What's funny is, I still get mailers with free slot play and giveaways from Caesar's Entertainment (for the A.C. properties), months after the 86. From a legal standpoint, the fact that I am still getting invitations for promotions from them, wouldn't this be an adequate justification and defense, if I were ever to be arrested on trespassing?
quinnziny
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:11:50 AM permalink
I live in NY and am involved in law enforcement. One would have to be warned first by a police officer of the local jurisdiction before an arrest is possible. There are no exceptions to that.
1BB
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:40:41 AM permalink
Quote: quinnziny

I live in NY and am involved in law enforcement. One would have to be warned first by a police officer of the local jurisdiction before an arrest is possible. There are no exceptions to that.



Have you ever been to the McBurney YMCA on W23rd St? It's on W14th now. Thanks for the laughs. You made my Friday more interesting. :-)
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Romes
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:43:08 AM permalink
Quote: quinnziny

I live in NY and am involved in law enforcement. One would have to be warned first by a police officer of the local jurisdiction before an arrest is possible. There are no exceptions to that.


Here's your warning for trespassing... Oh, and you're being quite disruptive so I'm playing you under arrest for disturbing the peace.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
quinnziny
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:46:36 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Have you ever been to the McBurney YMCA on W23rd St? It's on W14th now. Thanks for the laughs. You made my Friday more interesting. :-)



What is interesting and many don't know exactly what you mentioned is adjacent to East Village/West Village and of course Greenwich Village, hence their name The Village People.
1BB
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:49:35 AM permalink
Quote: quinnziny

What is interesting and many don't know exactly what you mentioned is adjacent to East Village/West Village and of course Greenwich Village, hence their name The Village People.



Good thing they weren't from Queens. I'm on a roll here. :-)
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
mcallister3200
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July 17th, 2015 at 10:20:08 AM permalink
Not only does the trespass not apply to AC properties, it doesn't even apply to other CET LV properties. CET is all about chest puffing, empty threats, and acting in bad faith when it comes to table games advantage play.
sodawater
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July 17th, 2015 at 12:55:50 PM permalink
A NJ casino MAY NOT kick you out or "trespass" you solely for advantage play. Doing so would violate a ruling by the state supreme court.

You can safely ignore the warning because if they take any action against you, it would be illegal. For example, if they forcibly backroom or arrest you, that would be false imprisonment and you would have a monster lawsuit.

Advantage play -- like race or sex -- is protected in NJ. You can physically speak the count out loud after every hand at blackjack and they can't even ask you to leave the table.
GWAE
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July 17th, 2015 at 1:39:23 PM permalink
Quote: quinnziny

I live in NY and am involved in law enforcement. One would have to be warned first by a police officer of the local jurisdiction before an arrest is possible. There are no exceptions to that.



Do you happen to fly helicopters for them?

I also do not believe that is 100% true. I can post a no trespassing sign up or kick someone off my personal property. If they come back, then the police can surely arrest them or site them for trespassing. It may not happen, but they definitely can.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
GWAE
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July 17th, 2015 at 1:41:18 PM permalink
Quote: stabworld

I was 86'd at a Caesar's Entertainment property in Vegas a few months back for Advantage Play. They read me the trespassing act, I did not sign anything. I was told I am banned from stepping foot on any Caesars Entertainment Property, and if I do, I can be subject to arrest.

As it stands, in New Jersey, you cannot bar a card counter from your casino simply for card counting.

So my question would be: if I were to visit a Caesars Entertainment Property casino in A.C., (NJ), could they arrest me on trespassing, being that I was 86'd from a Vegas Caesar's Entertainment property for card counting?

What's funny is, I still get mailers with free slot play and giveaways from Caesar's Entertainment (for the A.C. properties), months after the 86. From a legal standpoint, the fact that I am still getting invitations for promotions from them, wouldn't this be an adequate justification and defense, if I were ever to be arrested on trespassing?



nevermind
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Artemis
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July 17th, 2015 at 1:52:10 PM permalink
Quote: stabworld

I was 86'd at a Caesar's Entertainment property in Vegas a few months back for Advantage Play. They read me the trespassing act, I did not sign anything. I was told I am banned from stepping foot on any Caesars Entertainment Property, and if I do, I can be subject to arrest.

As it stands, in New Jersey, you cannot bar a card counter from your casino simply for card counting.

So my question would be: if I were to visit a Caesars Entertainment Property casino in A.C., (NJ), could they arrest me on trespassing, being that I was 86'd from a Vegas Caesar's Entertainment property for card counting?

What's funny is, I still get mailers with free slot play and giveaways from Caesar's Entertainment (for the A.C. properties), months after the 86. From a legal standpoint, the fact that I am still getting invitations for promotions from them, wouldn't this be an adequate justification and defense, if I were ever to be arrested on trespassing?




Will you get arrested/detained by security guards of AC Bally's, Caesars, or Harrah's? Yes, per Ross Miller.

Your case is similar to Ross Miller's. Currently Ross sues AC Bally's, Caesars, Harrah's & Planet Hollywood.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/card-counter-sues-planet-hollywood-over-detention-confiscated-casino-chips

Here is the link to some more interesting cases:
http://www.bj21.com/advantageplay/lawandtaxes/patronabuselinks.shtml
I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
AxelWolf
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July 17th, 2015 at 2:54:36 PM permalink
Quote: Artemis

Will you get arrested/detained by security guards of AC Bally's, Caesars, or Harrah's? Yes, per Ross Miller.

Your case is similar to Ross Miller's. Currently Ross sues AC Bally's, Caesars, Harrah's & Planet Hollywood.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/card-counter-sues-planet-hollywood-over-detention-confiscated-casino-chips

Here is the link to some more interesting cases:
http://www.bj21.com/advantageplay/lawandtaxes/patronabuselinks.shtml

I don't see the connection between this and the Ross Miller situation.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TomG
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July 17th, 2015 at 3:26:47 PM permalink
My understanding is you could go on another Caesar's property in Las Vegas and not be subject to arrest until they trespassed you there, too

"As a duly appointed representative of the owner of this property. . . "
AxelWolf
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July 17th, 2015 at 3:32:02 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

My understanding is you could go on another Caesar's property in Las Vegas and not be subject to arrest until they trespassed you there, too

"As a duly appointed representative of the owner of this property. . . "

This is what I keep hearing. Unfortunately most security guards are idiots and liars.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
EvenBob
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July 17th, 2015 at 4:12:49 PM permalink
Quote: quinnziny

I live in NY and am involved in law enforcement.



Helicopter division? Do they let you put
a bobble head monkey on the dash? I
hear that's good luck.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Artemis
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July 17th, 2015 at 5:24:38 PM permalink
Quote: stabworld

So my question would be: if I were to visit a Caesars Entertainment Property casino in A.C., (NJ), could they arrest me on trespassing, being that I was 86'd from a Vegas Caesar's Entertainment property for card counting?

What's funny is, I still get mailers with free slot play and giveaways from Caesar's Entertainment (for the A.C. properties), months after the 86. From a legal standpoint, the fact that I am still getting invitations for promotions from them, wouldn't this be an adequate justification and defense, if I were ever to be arrested on trespassing?



Quote: AxelWolf

I don't see the connection between this and the Ross Miller situation.




The connection is that Caesars Entertainment Corporation has abused the patron rights of Miller when he's in AC Showboat and Harrah's (see the quote below). It follows that the Corp will abuse the patron rights of the blacklisted-Stabworld in AC.


Quote: reviewjournal.com

According to the New Jersey lawsuit, Miller also was assaulted and detained in July 2013 at Harrah’s Atlantic City and in November 2013 at the Showboat in Atlantic City. Both times, Miller was charged with disorderly conduct, but the charges later were withdrawn.

I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
GWAE
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July 17th, 2015 at 6:14:48 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Helicopter division? Do they let you put
a bobble head monkey on the dash? I
hear that's good luck.



Hey I said it first
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Tanko
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July 17th, 2015 at 6:26:40 PM permalink
Quote: quinnziny

I live in NY and am involved in law enforcement. One would have to be warned first by a police officer of the local jurisdiction before an arrest is possible. There are no exceptions to that.



Where is that stated in NYS Penal Law?

The law does not require a warning from a P.O before an arrest is possible.

Article 140

"A person who, regardless of his intent, enters or remains in or
upon premises which are at the time open to the public does so with
license and privilege unless he defies a lawful order not to enter or
remain, personally communicated to him by the owner of such premises or
other authorized person."
AxelWolf
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July 18th, 2015 at 4:28:41 AM permalink
Quote: Artemis

The connection is that Caesars Entertainment Corporation has abused the patron rights of Miller when he's in AC Showboat and Harrah's (see the quote below). It follows that the Corp will abuse the patron rights of the blacklisted-Stabworld in AC.

Ah, I see what you're getting at. I don't know if he was actually being disorderly or not. I assumed this guy was looking for trouble, but i'm not sure. In most situations the casinos just want you gone.

Awnsering the OP's question. He should not get arrested but anything can happen.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
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July 18th, 2015 at 6:32:43 AM permalink
Quote: stabworld

...What's funny is, I still get mailers with free slot play and giveaways from Caesar's Entertainment (for the A.C. properties), months after the 86. From a legal standpoint, the fact that I am still getting invitations for promotions from them, wouldn't this be an adequate justification and defense, if I were ever to be arrested on trespassing?



What's funny is, is that you can be absolutely plainly honest about it.

You can write Caesars and tell them you've been 86-ed from their properties, and that you request to be removed from their mailing list,

- and (of all things) - be done with it.


Exactly why would you wish to associate with them, or have anything to do with them. You're done with each other.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
vendman1
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July 18th, 2015 at 7:51:29 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

What's funny is, is that you can be absolutely plainly honest about it.

You can write Caesars and tell them you've been 86-ed from their properties, and that you request to be removed from their mailing list,

- and (of all things) - be done with it.


Exactly why would you wish to associate with them, or have anything to do with them. You're done with each other.



I'd agree with this. Why would you want to poke the bear anyway? Let him sleep. CET is done with you...be done with them. Life is too short...why take the chance on being arrested etc.etc. just don't go to a CET property. I understand you might feel it's a matter of principle, but it just isn't worth it there are hundreds of non CET owned properties in the US. Plenty of other chickens for the plucking.
Avincow
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July 18th, 2015 at 8:51:35 AM permalink
It would be nice to avoid CET, but they are the largest casino chain and there are only so many places to gamble.

I would like to avoid Comcast. But I like the Internet, so I can't.
Boz
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July 18th, 2015 at 8:57:36 AM permalink
Quote: Avincow



I would like to avoid Comcast. But I like the Internet, so I can't.



As a business owner in the Philly area it pains me to pay those liberal bastards $700+ a month. But they hold the rights to Philllies, Sixers & Flyers so if you want to show those games, you pay them. And believe it or not, people still come and watch those bad teams. It just makes them drink more!
Boz
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July 18th, 2015 at 8:57:48 AM permalink
Quote: Avincow



I would like to avoid Comcast. But I like the Internet, so I can't.



As a business owner in the Philly area it pains me to pay those liberal bastards $700+ a month. But they hold the rights to Philllies, Sixers & Flyers so if you want to show those games, you pay them. And believe it or not, people still come and watch those bad teams. It just makes them drink more!
AxelWolf
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July 18th, 2015 at 8:59:50 AM permalink
Quote: stabworld



What's funny is, I still get mailers with free slot play and giveaways from Caesar's Entertainment (for the A.C. properties), months after the 86.

*Sigh*

What's funny is this something you felt the need to mention. Why?

Think about it.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RaleighCraps
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July 18th, 2015 at 10:49:34 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

What's funny is, is that you can be absolutely plainly honest about it.

You can write Caesars and tell them you've been 86-ed from their properties, and that you request to be removed from their mailing list,

- and (of all things) - be done with it.


Exactly why would you wish to associate with them, or have anything to do with them. You're done with each other.



Dan's point is certainly valid, but the principle in this should not be ignored either.

WHY should Stab have to take action, spend money on a stamp, etc. to tell a massive business, that has massive computer operations, that one end of their business (marketing) has no clue what the other part of the business (casino ops) is doing? It is unbelievable how easy it would be for this to be automated (not to mention saving the casino mailer dollars). But the business ignores the stupidity of the situation, and really don't care about whether or not they are bothering a person who they have banned. It really is ludicrous. <rant off> I have run out of adjectives to use to describe this.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
SanchoPanza
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July 18th, 2015 at 11:05:02 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

WHY should Stab have to take action, spend money on a stamp, etc. to tell a massive business, that has massive computer operations, that one end of their business (marketing) has no clue what the other part of the business (casino ops) is doing? It is unbelievable how easy it would be for this to be automated (not to mention saving the casino mailer dollars). But the business ignores the stupidity of the situation, and really don't care about whether or not they are bothering a person who they have banned. It really is ludicrous. <rant off> I have run out of adjectives to use to describe this.

That well-described stupidity is a major reason why the dodos are in bankruptcy.
Boz
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July 18th, 2015 at 11:22:45 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

That well-described stupidity is a major reason why the dodos are in bankruptcy.




Or you can just site Gary Loveman is the reason. All of the problems start at his leadership. Add in his contribution to the 61% decrease in the price of Coach Stock in the past 2 years and he easily ranks as one of the worth performing CEO's in Anerica
quinnziny
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July 18th, 2015 at 12:01:51 PM permalink
Sorry Tanko, I beg to differ from what you interpret the law as. There are no police officers that will arrest someone for trespassing based solely on the owner or his rep saying they were warned by them. It has to be a police officer with documented proof and entries into an incident report, etc.
AxelWolf
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July 18th, 2015 at 12:44:44 PM permalink
Quote: quinnziny

Sorry Tanko, I beg to differ from what you interpret the law as. There are no police officers that will arrest someone for trespassing based solely on the owner or his rep saying they were warned by them. It has to be a police officer with documented proof and entries into an incident report, etc.

BullSh*t.

Security guards can simply lie. It's happened a few times that I know of.



Situation. Casino spots someone(the good guy) they want to 86. Good guy feels heat and hits the door before security has a chance to approach him. They have a picture, day and time. No official trespassing was given. Good guy returns and gets back roomed. It's now faults imprisonment, casino panics, calls Metro and lies claiming patron had been 86'ed on his previous trip.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
quinnziny
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July 18th, 2015 at 12:48:54 PM permalink
Undoubtedly they also take the electric ripsaw saw about the same as they portrayed in the movie Casino, offering the hammer or the saw. OKI DOKEY! Yep, you are correct, back rooming.
AxelWolf
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July 18th, 2015 at 1:03:59 PM permalink
Quote: quinnziny

Undoubtedly they also take the electric ripsaw saw about the same as they portrayed in the movie Casino, offering the hammer or the saw. OKI DOKEY! Yep, you are correct, back rooming.



Newbee here
Quote: quinnziny

Leaving tonight, drove from NYC to my friend's house in PA and we are going to the airport later for our flight to VEGAS BABY! Looking forward to playing some blackjack for the first time. Slots and craps on hold for a bit. Let's roll.............................

I think that says it all.

BTW I didn't say this was likely to happen. I'm saying it can, it has, and at some point it will happen.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Artemis
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July 19th, 2015 at 2:21:56 PM permalink
Just an update...

My reliable sources say that there are false arrests of APs in AC. Currently the victimized APs have pursued civil litigation against some AC casinos.

To each his own. Justin Mills and Ross Miller have made known their lawsuits to the public, but the above victimized APs prefer to remain as anonymous plaintiffs for the time being.
I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
1BB
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July 19th, 2015 at 2:53:59 PM permalink
Quote: Artemis

Just an update...

My reliable sources say that there are false arrests of APs in AC. Currently the victimized APs have pursued civil litigation against some AC casinos.

To each his own. Justin Mills and Ross Miller have made known their lawsuits to the public, but the above victimized APs prefer to remain as anonymous plaintiffs for the time being.



Artemis, any update on the Binns family that was the victim of an assault by Harrah's security in AC?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Tanko
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July 19th, 2015 at 6:46:46 PM permalink
Quote: quinnziny

Sorry Tanko, I beg to differ from what you interpret the law as. There are no police officers that will arrest someone for trespassing based solely on the owner or his rep saying they were warned by them. It has to be a police officer with documented proof and entries into an incident report, etc.



This was your original comment:

Quote: quinnziny

I live in NY and am involved in law enforcement. One would have to be warned first by a police officer of the local jurisdiction before an arrest is possible. There are no exceptions to that.



If the PO finds the person on the property and is told by the owner or authorized person that the person was told to leave the premises and refuses to do so, the P.O. has reasonable cause to believe the person is trespassing.

No warning by the PO is necessary before the arrest can be made.

As far as requiring a warning from a PO of 'local jurisdiction', you should know that the Geographical Area of Employment for a PO is the entire State of New York.
Artemis
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July 19th, 2015 at 7:06:36 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Artemis, any update on the Binns family that was the victim of an assault by Harrah's security in AC?



I get no update on Binns vs Harrah's litigation. It will take probably a few years to get a large settlement for Binns.

Coincidentally Binns' lawyer did handle another big case in 2004 (Tropicana Casino garage collapse litigation.) It took almost 3 years to get a $101,000,000 settlement in 2007.
I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
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