Mission146
Mission146
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February 5th, 2020 at 4:40:47 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

And, that is a prime example of the issue with tribal casino.

When a tribes existence depends on casinos, it encourages tribal police to essentially become protectors of the casino.

You would never be arrested to having multiple player cards at a legit casino, at most you would be banned and maybe some winnings voided.

But when a country (tribal land, just saying country for simplicity) depends on the existence of a casino, the police are going to become revenue protectors.

I have a moral issue with tribal lands. I have an issue with tribal casinos. And, the stories I hear, even if a fraction true, are enough to make me never want to go there even if I had no moral objection to their existence....



Do you have an issue with Canadian casinos?
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Gandler
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Mission146
February 5th, 2020 at 5:08:21 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Do you have an issue with Canadian casinos?



I have never gambled in Canada. Never saw the point. The casinos seem far less appealing than casinos in America that I enjoy.

And, yes I know where you are going with this. Canadian Providence's own many of the casinos (Gov casinos). But, I trust the Canadian police more than tribal police (far more). And, yes I know Canada has Indian Casinos (or a Canadnian term for them).

I don't have an issue with Canadian casinos, but if I am in Canada, it's not to gamble, there are better things to do in Canada and America has superior casinos.


Do I think governments should be in the casino buisness generally speaking? No. I am also against state lotteries. It's a tax on the poor. (And states with "lottery machines" IE slot machines owned by the state lottery in gas stations, are just wrong....)
Mission146
Mission146
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February 5th, 2020 at 5:21:42 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I have never gambled in Canada. Never saw the point. The casinos seem far less appealing than casinos in America that I enjoy.



Me either, but nor have I been there.

Quote:

And, yes I know where you are going with this. Canadian Providence's own many of the casinos (Gov casinos). But, I trust the Canadian police more than tribal police (far more). And, yes I know Canada has Indian Casinos (or a Canadnian term for them).

I don't have an issue with Canadian casinos, but if I am in Canada, it's not to gamble, there are better things to do in Canada and America has superior casinos.


Do I think governments should be in the casino buisness generally speaking? No. I am also against state lotteries. It's a tax on the poor. (And states with "lottery machines" IE slot machines owned by the state lottery in gas stations, are just wrong....)



You are absolutely correct about where I was going with it. It's sovereign land, it's their own country just like anything else is its own country. The subject matter of the thread that Darkoz linked to, for example...it's not illegal in any state that I am aware of, but that does not mean an individual state could not make it illegal, they most certainly could. Therefore, if a Tribe (which is effectively a different country) wants to make it illegal on their land, then they have the right to do so.

I'm in favor of state lotteries, though I think on every ticket machine and at every ticket stand the base return to player and contribution to any progressives (by percentage) should be clearly advertised. I'm also in favor of what you're talking about which I would term, "Parlors," and which are essentially the case in states like Montana, Illinois and West Virginia. Really, I'm in favor of all gambling offerings being legal, but I think that any and all gambling offerings should make percentage returns to player conspicuously known.
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Gandler
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February 5th, 2020 at 5:37:14 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Me either, but nor have I been there.



You are absolutely correct about where I was going with it. It's sovereign land, it's their own country just like anything else is its own country. The subject matter of the thread that Darkoz linked to, for example...it's not illegal in any state that I am aware of, but that does not mean an individual state could not make it illegal, they most certainly could. Therefore, if a Tribe (which is effectively a different country) wants to make it illegal on their land, then they have the right to do so.

I'm in favor of state lotteries, though I think on every ticket machine and at every ticket stand the base return to player and contribution to any progressives (by percentage) should be clearly advertised. I'm also in favor of what you're talking about which I would term, "Parlors," and which are essentially the case in states like Montana, Illinois and West Virginia. Really, I'm in favor of all gambling offerings being legal, but I think that any and all gambling offerings should make percentage returns to player conspicuously known.




Yes, but (and maybe one of the many lawyer here can jump in), I don't beleive tribal police can arrest non tribal people for breaking their laws. That is the sketchy part of tribal lands.
And, when tribal members do break the law there is very little recourse (many tribes do not even cooperate with warrants).


My problem with small governments (tribes) running casinos, it is their cash cow, they will protect it by any means necessary. No legit casino would seize a car and detain somebody and seize their possessions for using another's card. But, when a main source of revenue is from a casino (not sole source, but significant portion), protecting it is a priority.

It's like old Cuba (where the mobs ran the casino and controlled the local police). Anytime the police and casinos become protectors of each other it's a recipe for trouble.

Enforcement branches should be watching the casino and cracking down on casino errors, not being an extra layer of security and intimidation for casinos.


Anyway, I am against tribal land, and I am against states making absurd deals with tribes for exclusive rights. So I don't think tribal land should exist, and I certainly don't think states should be making bad deals to prop them up further. And, they certainly won't be getting my money. There are enough legitimate casinos that I trust (loosely speaking) where I prefer to lose my money. I like publicly traded companies that answer to investors and regulators. I don't like tribal monopolies in region X.
darkoz
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February 5th, 2020 at 5:54:10 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

Quote: Mission146

Me either, but nor have I been there.



You are absolutely correct about where I was going with it. It's sovereign land, it's their own country just like anything else is its own country. The subject matter of the thread that Darkoz linked to, for example...it's not illegal in any state that I am aware of, but that does not mean an individual state could not make it illegal, they most certainly could. Therefore, if a Tribe (which is effectively a different country) wants to make it illegal on their land, then they have the right to do so.

I'm in favor of state lotteries, though I think on every ticket machine and at every ticket stand the base return to player and contribution to any progressives (by percentage) should be clearly advertised. I'm also in favor of what you're talking about which I would term, "Parlors," and which are essentially the case in states like Montana, Illinois and West Virginia. Really, I'm in favor of all gambling offerings being legal, but I think that any and all gambling offerings should make percentage returns to player conspicuously known.




Yes, but (and maybe one of the many lawyer here can jump in), I don't beleive tribal police can arrest non tribal people for breaking their laws. That is the sketchy part of tribal lands.
And, when tribal members do break the law there is very little recourse (many tribes do not even cooperate with warrants).


My problem with small governments (tribes) running casinos, it is their cash cow, they will protect it by any means necessary. No legit casino would seize a car and detain somebody and seize their possessions for using another's card. But, when a main source of revenue is from a casino (not sole source, but significant portion), protecting it is a priority.

It's like old Cuba (where the mobs ran the casino and controlled the local police). Anytime the police and casinos become protectors of each other it's a recipe for trouble.

Enforcement branches should be watching the casino and cracking down on casino errors, not being an extra layer of security and intimidation for casinos.


Anyway, I am against tribal land, and I am against states making absurd deals with tribes for exclusive rights. So I don't think tribal land should exist, and I certainly don't think states should be making bad deals to prop them up further. And, they certainly won't be getting my money. There are enough legitimate casinos that I trust (loosely speaking) where I prefer to lose my money. I like publicly traded companies that answer to investors and regulators. I don't like tribal monopolies in region X.



I believe if crimes are committed on tribal land by non-tribal members the tribal police affect a type of citizen arrest where they hold the perpetrator until state authorities arrive for custodial purposes.

The Tribe would become witnesses in city or state court and the non-tribal defendant faces traditional penalties under the law

But in any civil action cases the tribal community can handle the case on their own with their own court system

That's the way I understand it to work
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Gandler
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February 5th, 2020 at 6:02:34 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Gandler

Quote: Mission146

Me either, but nor have I been there.



You are absolutely correct about where I was going with it. It's sovereign land, it's their own country just like anything else is its own country. The subject matter of the thread that Darkoz linked to, for example...it's not illegal in any state that I am aware of, but that does not mean an individual state could not make it illegal, they most certainly could. Therefore, if a Tribe (which is effectively a different country) wants to make it illegal on their land, then they have the right to do so.

I'm in favor of state lotteries, though I think on every ticket machine and at every ticket stand the base return to player and contribution to any progressives (by percentage) should be clearly advertised. I'm also in favor of what you're talking about which I would term, "Parlors," and which are essentially the case in states like Montana, Illinois and West Virginia. Really, I'm in favor of all gambling offerings being legal, but I think that any and all gambling offerings should make percentage returns to player conspicuously known.




Yes, but (and maybe one of the many lawyer here can jump in), I don't beleive tribal police can arrest non tribal people for breaking their laws. That is the sketchy part of tribal lands.
And, when tribal members do break the law there is very little recourse (many tribes do not even cooperate with warrants).


My problem with small governments (tribes) running casinos, it is their cash cow, they will protect it by any means necessary. No legit casino would seize a car and detain somebody and seize their possessions for using another's card. But, when a main source of revenue is from a casino (not sole source, but significant portion), protecting it is a priority.

It's like old Cuba (where the mobs ran the casino and controlled the local police). Anytime the police and casinos become protectors of each other it's a recipe for trouble.

Enforcement branches should be watching the casino and cracking down on casino errors, not being an extra layer of security and intimidation for casinos.


Anyway, I am against tribal land, and I am against states making absurd deals with tribes for exclusive rights. So I don't think tribal land should exist, and I certainly don't think states should be making bad deals to prop them up further. And, they certainly won't be getting my money. There are enough legitimate casinos that I trust (loosely speaking) where I prefer to lose my money. I like publicly traded companies that answer to investors and regulators. I don't like tribal monopolies in region X.



I believe if crimes are committed on tribal land by non-tribal members the tribal police affect a type of citizen arrest where they hold the perpetrator until state authorities arrive for custodial purposes.

The Tribe would become witnesses in city or state court and the non-tribal defendant faces traditional penalties under the law

But in any civil action cases the tribal community can handle the case on their own with their own court system

That's the way I understand it to work



That could be true. It sounds right.

I know if a tribal member commits a crime or has warrants tribal police and governments will almost never cooperate making it hard to arrest tribal criminals as long as they stay in tribal boundries (another one of many issues with tribal lands).


It's just a sketchy complicated arrangement that should not exist in 2020.
darkoz
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February 5th, 2020 at 6:06:14 PM permalink
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliphant_v._Suquamish_Indian_Tribe

That should settle it.

Non-tribal members cannot be arrested for crimes on tribal land.

Actually led a rise in rapes of Indian women by non-tribal men who were immune to prosecution (disgusting)

That was fixed in 2013 by a Congressional act giving the tribes some means to police against rape issues

Otherwise, non-members are immune from prosecution (unless the state government wishes to prosecute of course)
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Mission146
Mission146
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February 5th, 2020 at 6:10:31 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler



That could be true. It sounds right.

I know if a tribal member commits a crime or has warrants tribal police and governments will almost never cooperate making it hard to arrest tribal criminals as long as they stay in tribal boundries (another one of many issues with tribal lands).


It's just a sketchy complicated arrangement that should not exist in 2020.



You mean if they stay in their own country?
Vultures can't be choosers.
Mission146
Mission146
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February 5th, 2020 at 6:20:00 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler



Yes, but (and maybe one of the many lawyer here can jump in), I don't beleive tribal police can arrest non tribal people for breaking their laws. That is the sketchy part of tribal lands.
And, when tribal members do break the law there is very little recourse (many tribes do not even cooperate with warrants).


My problem with small governments (tribes) running casinos, it is their cash cow, they will protect it by any means necessary. No legit casino would seize a car and detain somebody and seize their possessions for using another's card. But, when a main source of revenue is from a casino (not sole source, but significant portion), protecting it is a priority.



I don't know, they told me I was committing wire fraud and that I would get to wait to have the police come along and do something with me if I refused to present my ID to them (a state regulated casino). Then you have the dude with the slot tickets confiscated, that's tickets plural, who has been able to talk to the only appropriate gaming person in that state once in four months after having to leave countless voicemails both before and after.

Quote:

It's like old Cuba (where the mobs ran the casino and controlled the local police). Anytime the police and casinos become protectors of each other it's a recipe for trouble.

Enforcement branches should be watching the casino and cracking down on casino errors, not being an extra layer of security and intimidation for casinos.


Anyway, I am against tribal land, and I am against states making absurd deals with tribes for exclusive rights. So I don't think tribal land should exist, and I certainly don't think states should be making bad deals to prop them up further. And, they certainly won't be getting my money. There are enough legitimate casinos that I trust (loosely speaking) where I prefer to lose my money. I like publicly traded companies that answer to investors and regulators. I don't like tribal monopolies in region X.



Gaming already does protect the casinos, at least financially. They ruled AGAINST Phil Ivey in actual courts. Twice. Because a casino was stupid enough to believe that a professional poker player was just there to gamble and gave him the easiest edge-sorting conditions possible. I would say that they already are an extra layer of security for casinos (at least when it comes to advantage players) in regulated environments.

You then look at Colorado, the state that will allow for you to be arrested, barred from the casino and fined by the state for accidentally putting your ticket in on top of a machine that has a couple bucks in credits on that. The state is actually imposing a fine in that instance. Casino staff threatens players with all sorts of charges that do not fit any legal definition of the word whatsoever, and if a player were to complain to gaming about this activity and be able to prove it, what would happen? Exactly nothing. Why? Because they make the state money. The relationship with any state with Commercial Gambling and any Tribe to its Government is not THAT much different.

And, again, I would argue that there is more of a monopoly on land gaming properties in the State of Ohio than there could ever hope to be in Oklahoma. You have 30-some tribes, for one thing. Ohio has four casinos.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to do the thing that was discussed in the Thread Darkoz linked to in a Tribal Casino, but aside from that, I'm no more concerned about going into those than I would be anywhere else.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Gandler
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February 5th, 2020 at 6:38:02 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

You mean if they stay in their own country?



It should not be their country.

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