drrock
drrock
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Mission146
February 1st, 2020 at 11:06:53 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Why don't you tell me more about how my Vulturing UX machines is garbage-picking, though, I'd also love to hear a diatribe about same being morally bankrupt, if you're so inclined.

My guess is that this idea of his is a rationalization to allow him saving face. His story about the $100 bill, perhaps even made up, is ironic. He has been expressing the idea that vulturing multipliers is of low moral standing ever since he made an offer of $100 to ANYONE (on videopoker.com) that could inform him of advantage plays in Florida. Someone quickly mentioned Ultimate X (along with progressives) and he welched on his offer. Ultimate X was seen as below him and progressives were not available every day. So, the story about keeping $100 that was due to someone else is not really all that surprising for longtime videopoker.com forum members.
Mission146
Mission146
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Forager
February 1st, 2020 at 11:30:17 AM permalink
SingleCoinVP,

The good news is that I'm about to run a few errands, but I have 10-15 minutes first, so we're not done quite yet.

Let's talk some more about garbage picking:

Know this, the best piece of casino garbage that I ever picked up was that I once had a slot machine spin with a GUARANTEED MINIMUM 1000% Return-On-Investment, most likely, I've had better ones than that, but I mention that one because I know the specific percentage.

In the meantime, you seem to lobby under some sort of false belief that the casinos are not gambling: They are. They are gambling the same as the advantage players are and the same as any other players are.

Therefore, I ask you: If what I am doing amounts to garbage picking, then what is the casino doing when it is able to compel you into playing 2.xx% house edge video poker that you have said you have played? What is the casino doing when you gamble with them at a greater house edge than that by short-coining? I think it's pretty rare for me to even encounter vulturing plays that would have such a low percentage return, so why is one garbage picking and not the other?

Here's something else that you should know as a recreational player: I want to personally thank you for going to the casinos. The way that the whole thing works is really pretty simple:

You go to the casinos.

You play negative expectation games.

You are expected to lose money.

I go to casinos.

I play positive expectation games, circumstances or machines that are variable state and happen to be in a positive state.

I am expected to win money.

What happens if you and I were to both go to the same casino? The answer is pretty simple: Indirectly, by expectation, some of your money will become my money. That leads me to ask the question: Does that bother you? Are you irritated by the fact that you go to the casinos, play a negative expectation game and do so under your stated justification that better games are not available and that's how you have a good time WHEN that is combined with the fact that other players are going into the casino and are expected to win money that your good time provides for them?

Cry me a river.

I don't see what you think is better about the casinos to have all of the money based off of negative expectation gambling compared to other players having it when both parties are basically doing the exact same thing. I guess the difference is that one entity, by definition, must encourage you to gamble whereas the other entity does not. I certainly do not encourage anyone to gamble.

Also, where are your good friends, the casinos, who you so much love to give money to when you asked the question you asked last week about variance, house edge, expected loss etc. etc. of multi-hand video poker compared to single-line games? How come they couldn't just answer the question for you? My guess is probably because only some 5% of casino employees could even make a semi accurate guess as to the general meaning of the word.

Here's another question: Why do the casinos not put the returns for every individual slot machine on the machines themselves so that players can make an informed decision what machines they do or do not wish to play based on those returns? I doubt most people would play 15% edge games if they were being told, by the entity offering them, that's what they are playing. Unfortunately, the few players who I do try to tell simply won't take my word for it. If it weren't for the fact that websites, such as Wizard of Odds, published video poker calculators...you wouldn't know the returns for those games or the strategy for those either, absent figuring it out yourself somehow.

Anyway, so you have these entities (casinos) who take the money from negative expectation players in a huge variety of ways and try to get away with the absolute fullest extent that they can get away with in whatever jurisdiction is in question. In the meantime, you have advantage players who see that the casinos offer positive situations sometimes and seek to take advantage of those. You compare Ultimate X to a scam. You call it garbage-picking.

What are the casinos doing if not garbage picking if you think gambling at an advantage is garbage picking? And, congratulations to you my esteemed negative expectation (admission) video poker player friend...your money is the garbage.

But then, the old adage goes, "One man's trash is another man's treasure."
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
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February 1st, 2020 at 11:32:55 AM permalink
If there was anyone around me or if someone had just left from the chair I was in, I would have offered them the $100 bill. As I was alone and no one came back looking for it, I had a choice to make. It could have fallen out of my own pocket, who knows? It only happened once in all those years. What has happened more frequently is finding a sizeable ticket still in the machine. In every case, we either found the person who left it or gave it to the slot attendant. I have had this happen to me in reverse where someone gave me a ticket I left by mistake.

I never said Vulturing UX machines was morally bankrupt, I said it was garbage picking. There is a difference. If Vulturing UX machines is part of your strategy, more power to you. Our ticket redemption machines do not give out coins. I always leave the white change tickets in the machine. Twenty cents here, thirty cents there and you have enough for a shot at a jackpot. If you hit a royal flush, you could brag how playing with an advantage produced your profit.

Then there's this. I must get at least 5-6 offers a week for free drink glasses, bottles of booze, countertop ovens and jackets. Why not sell them at the flea market? We could come up with dozens of advantage opportunities like that. That's not the point. The point is why when it's so much easier to make money out of a casino?
Mission146
Mission146
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Forager
February 1st, 2020 at 11:43:34 AM permalink
Quote: SingleCoinVP

If there was anyone around me or if someone had just left from the chair I was in, I would have offered them the $100 bill. As I was alone and no one came back looking for it, I had a choice to make. It could have fallen out of my own pocket, who knows? It only happened once in all those years. What has happened more frequently is finding a sizeable ticket still in the machine. In every case, we either found the person who left it or gave it to the slot attendant. I have had this happen to me in reverse where someone gave me a ticket I left by mistake.



You did have a choice to make. If you had made the right choice, maybe you wouldn't be talking about how it maybe fell out of your own pocket. Do you not know how much cash you have on you when in the casino? I would probably know if I was leaving a hundred short or a hundred over, that's for sure.

Quote:

I never said Vulturing UX machines was morally bankrupt, I said it was garbage picking. There is a difference. If Vulturing UX machines is part of your strategy, more power to you. Our ticket redemption machines do not give out coins. I always leave the white change tickets in the machine. Twenty cents here, thirty cents there and you have enough for a shot at a jackpot. If you hit a royal flush, you could brag how playing with an advantage produced your profit.



What in the hell are you going on about now? I have been yelled at, several times, by advantage player friends because I tend to leave the change in the cashout machines myself. Most Ultimate X plays, almost all of them, have a paper money expectation, even individually, not a metal money expectation.

Just, seriously, what the hell are you talking about? You know they put Ultimate X in high-limit rooms, right? You should know that. I believe you participated in a thread here related to that subject.

I once found three 8x multipliers on a $5 denomination triple-play machine at the Meadows Casino. Can you guess what the expectation on that one was? I'll just go ahead and tell you: The expectation on that particular $75 bet was nearly $600. (+$510-$520 somewhere in there) I'd say that comes out to a bit more than, "White change." Based on what you have said, I think my expectation just on that play was more than you often bring to the casino for a day.

Quote:

Then there's this. I must get at least 5-6 offers a week for free drink glasses, bottles of booze, countertop ovens and jackets. Why not sell them at the flea market? We could come up with dozens of advantage opportunities like that. That's not the point. The point is why when it's so much easier to make money out of a casino?



I don't care what you sell or don't sell at a flea market. I seriously doubt that most such situations are an, "Advantage opportunity," in the sense that the resale value would make your overall play +EV, but maybe they are. I couldn't say for sure and also really don't care. The only gambling I really do concerns vulturing and progressives and the only comp that I care about is free play.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
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February 1st, 2020 at 11:46:45 AM permalink
I honestly don't understand what all this casino profit fixation is about? Millions of people go into a casino every year. Few of them profit. They must like what they get or they wouldn't go back. Does it bother me that I am paying the casino to play and someone else doesn't. Not in the least. When I buy a stock and it goes up, I bought it from someone who thought it was going down. I don't buy stocks for entertainment. I don't play video poker for profit.
heatmap
heatmap
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Mission146
February 1st, 2020 at 11:51:53 AM permalink
I was a noob when it came to casinos at this point, but I was sweeping the floor for extra players cards just to see how many I could gather. Who knows what my plans were after. So I have my head slightly down to look on the floor as well as around every slot and within the slot machines themselves. On a thin "shelve" around the bottom of a slot machine I see what I think to be a cheap ring as the metal it was made of seemed cheap and the actual top of the ring was not facing me. I pick the ring up and there is a HUGE ruby surrounded by a bunch of smaller saphires surrounded by a bunch of diamonds. I returned it and they actually gave me some free play. Pit managers to this day still laugh when they see the note about it.

EDIT :

And I know I have dropped money, because an asian started to stand next to me wierd and someone came over who was watching the asian stand on top of my money to steal it and ratted them out. So this is why I also disagree.
SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
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February 1st, 2020 at 11:54:53 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I was a noob when it came to casinos at this point, but I was sweeping the floor for extra players cards just to see how many I could gather. Who knows what my plans were after. So I have my head slightly down to look on the floor as well as around every slot and within the slot machines themselves. On a thin "shelve" around the bottom of a slot machine I see what I think to be a cheap ring as the metal it was made of seemed cheap and the actual top of the ring was not facing me. I pick the ring up and there is a HUGE ruby surrounded by a bunch of smaller saphires surrounded by a bunch of diamonds. I returned it and they actually gave me some free play. Pit managers to this day still laugh when they see the note about it.

I'm surprised they gave you anything for turning in that ring. I would have done the same. A piece of jewelry has an identity. I would never keep something like that. A $100 bill does not. If I had turned that $100 bill into lost and found, they would still be laughing at me.
heatmap
heatmap
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Mission146
February 1st, 2020 at 11:58:11 AM permalink
Quote: SingleCoinVP

I'm surprised they gave you anything for turning in that ring. I would have done the same. A piece of jewelry has an identity. I would never keep something like that. A $100 bill does not. if I had turned that $100 into lost and found, they would still be laughing.



As I had stated when I opened the statement, I also agree with advantage play based on cards, but not necessarily picking up money. Not that I havent done it myself either, except in the form of chips, when I really had no clue as to why it was morally wrong or how much actual trouble I could get into when the advantages/opportunities within the casino were were far more valuable to me than that $100 which is how I rationalize against it. And disguising yourself and hiding from the people within the casino to play within the casino is not fun.

Edit :

and also, its not that they may not review the video for you per say, i actually think you have a very good chance of them never knowing you took that money, but when they are prompted to do any kind of investigation and are required to review all angles of an incident and you MAY be in those videos and they can make a separate case, where they instruct someone to "follow the money" per say in those videos. Highly unlikely but still possible because they save videos for a decently long time these days too.
SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
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February 1st, 2020 at 12:15:21 PM permalink
A number of years ago I was playing video poker at the Ameristar in Black Hawk Colorado. I was on vacation and I guess I looked kind of scruffy. I like to play single coin VP for reasons that have nothing to do with mathematics. I was walking around playing a little in each machine. They have a lot of machines. A younger man saw me and must have thought I was down on my luck. He walked up to me and gave me a $50 ticket. I accepted the ticket and thanked him. As he walked away, I thought what a great person he was. He saw what he thought was an old man playing his monthly pension check and out of the kindness of his heart gave me money. He had no way of knowing who I was or how much money I was carrying. This act told me he cared more about another person than making a profit.
Mission146
Mission146
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February 1st, 2020 at 3:05:31 PM permalink
Quote: SingleCoinVP

A number of years ago I was playing video poker at the Ameristar in Black Hawk Colorado. I was on vacation and I guess I looked kind of scruffy. I like to play single coin VP for reasons that have nothing to do with mathematics. I was walking around playing a little in each machine. They have a lot of machines. A younger man saw me and must have thought I was down on my luck. He walked up to me and gave me a $50 ticket. I accepted the ticket and thanked him. As he walked away, I thought what a great person he was. He saw what he thought was an old man playing his monthly pension check and out of the kindness of his heart gave me money. He had no way of knowing who I was or how much money I was carrying. This act told me he cared more about another person than making a profit.



What does that have to do with advantage players? I saw a guy playing an advantage machine (he knew it was) run out of credits on one occasion, I swooped in and took the play and gave him $20 of the winnings even though I didnít make very much on the play. I sat down and planned to give half of whatever I won because I noticed him standing around watching me and looking dejected.

He liked to bet the races. Terrible for business for me because, of the few vulture plays he knew, one of them was the best one in the house. More than that, he was just going to eventually, ďGive back,Ē anything he won anyway.

Still, I couldnít help but feel bad for him. Iíve helped out a few other people that Iíve seen around also. Iíve met other hustlers who werenít doing so well who I put on better opportunities and drove them around all over the place. I wrote an article about one of them I met in my travels.

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/the-vultures-are-dead/

I canít speak for every AP on Earth, but lots of us look out for each other and look out for others. I donate blood, volunteer at a soup kitchen and do all kinds of other little helpful stuff here and there. I try not to talk about it too much because itís usually not relevant to anything. I just donít know why you would impugn all APs in such a way. Iíll admit I pimp donating blood a good bit on Facebook, but thatís just because I donít understand why anyone who is medically able to do so wouldnít.

I mostly got into advantage play because, like you, I think gambling can be a fun hobby. I also try to go at times where what I see is less likely to depress me than it sometimes does. But, the gambling aspect itself and discovering new machines and plays I think is fun. You think negative expectation gambling is fun, which is fine, it just so happens I generally donít have fun (but rarely do have fun) doing that. I prefer being expected to win and have fun doing that.

Honestly, even thatís not all that fun anymore! I think I went to the casino less in 2019 than any other time in the 2010ís. It was just a bad year in terms of what I saw with the impact gambling was having on some people. I also quit drinking March of last year, so the depression, in general, rears its ugly head a lot more than it used to.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

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