Tribal Casino - Using other's players cards?
The problem is that at this casino, any payout over $399.99 or causes a hand pay (although no tax forms are presented and no tax withheld, you still have to sign and they document the player and card#).
I would play NSU 5-coin @1.25 total bet per hand, which would mean my only hand-pay situation would be a natural royal. How much of a stink do you think if I hit it using another player's card? I could give them a decent cover story. I'd be using my girlfriend's card and could make an excuse like "OH, she couldn't come today and had free play on her card so she let me use it". Do you think this would fly? And if so, for how long?
What about my brother's card? We have the same last name, so it might give more viable credence to the story
I could just short-coin and play 4 coins, or play a different nickel machine 7 coins (when the 10 coin feature is enabled). The would knock my payback in the 98.5% range though, which would eat up TONS of EV.
What is the worst case scenario likely to happen? They stiff me on a measly $1K jackpot? (It is tribal land though....)
Thank you, this forum is great!
Quote: Dyvan13Good afternoon. I have a question about using another person's player's card in a tribal casino. I have found a decent promotion that can lead to significant free play, but it'll take more than 1 player's card to make it really worthwhile;
The problem is that at this casino, any payout over $399.99 or causes a hand pay (although no tax forms are presented and no tax withheld, you still have to sign and they document the player and card#).
Good evening, in my case, thanks for the kind greeting!
Quote:I would play NSU 5-coin @1.25 total bet per hand, which would mean my only hand-pay situation would be a natural royal. How much of a stink do you think if I hit it using another player's card? I could give them a decent cover story. I'd be using my girlfriend's card and could make an excuse like "OH, she couldn't come today and had free play on her card so she let me use it". Do you think this would fly? And if so, for how long?
What about my brother's card? We have the same last name, so it might give more viable credence to the story
The first thing is that any situation that would cause you to have multiple royals would result in a handpay, so this would not just pertain to dealt royals. If you were to have a four-to-a-royal situation and hit at least two of them, then that event would put you at a minimum of $400 and would also be a hand pay. That would happen on roughly 1 in 236 (or so) four-to-a-royal draws. Funny thing about that is that it makes that scenario almost as likely as is getting a dealt royal, given the frequency of four to a royal draws.
I would definitely not lead with that you were using free play on someone else's card. If I were going to have any preset excuse, mine would be that you carry around your girlfriend (or brother's) players club card because you guys often go to the casino together, and if one person leaves a card in the machine, the other person has one of their cards handy. You just happened to put in the wrong card by mistake. I definitely wouldn't go out of your way to mention picking up free play on someone else's card, let them figure that out for themselves if that's what happens.
Generally speaking, I would think you could probably get away with it once, but it depends on quite a few different factors. Some casinos crack down on the use of multiple players cards harder than others and there are a few casinos (if it's your GF's card) that basically wouldn't even care.
Quote:I could just short-coin and play 4 coins, or play a different nickel machine 7 coins (when the 10 coin feature is enabled). The would knock my payback in the 98.5% range though, which would eat up TONS of EV.
What is the worst case scenario likely to happen? They stiff me on a measly $1K jackpot? (It is tribal land though....)
Thank you, this forum is great!
I would not be inclined to cut into your ER so dramatically over the small probability of a dealt royal flush. If you get dealt four-to-a-royal and want to do so out of an overabundance of caution, you could always just make the second-best hold. While it kills your return for that hand, the situation is rare enough that it's not going to hurt you as badly as short-coining the royal entirely. The bad hold costs you roughly nineteen units (read: total bets) in expectation, but short-coining the royal entirely is going to cost you more than that in expectation, I believe. I think the odds of getting a four-to-a-royal draw are roughly 1/2800, let's figure it out:
(47*5*4)/nCr(52,5) = 0.0003616831347924 1/0.0003616831347924 = Roughly 1 in 2764.85
Okay, so given that, you are sacrificing about 19 bets worth every 2765 hands, which is less than 1%. It's about 0.6872% and I think the 19 bets worth of difference making the second best hold (as opposed to best) is rounding up quite a bit. For example, holding three-to-a-royal (and tossing a royal card) is not as bad if you also have a dealt five card flush and just keep the flush, or if you keep a dealt straight flush or straight flush draw as opposed to just keeping three royal cards. You could also be holding a pair as opposed to the royal draw which is better than the three to a royal hold with the royal impossible.
Anyway, while tossing that would both A.) Suck and B.) Be an overabundance of caution, it wouldn't be as bad as completely short-coining the royal.
I don't know whether or not they would stiff you on the jackpot, though I tend to doubt it. They would maybe have the person to whom the card belongs have to come claim it? I don't really know. Maybe they would stiff you. You're stiffing yourself by short-coining anyway.
I guess you'll just have to come up with some sort of probability that happens and what you consider the loss in value to be compared to short-coining and making such an event not possible.
The moment I hear "tribal casino" I think of tribal police, tribal jail. tribal lawyers, tribal judge and that is all I need.Quote: Dyvan13I have a question about using another person's player's card in a tribal casino.
Quote: Dyvan13Good afternoon. I have a question about using another person's player's card in a tribal casino. I have found a decent promotion that can lead to significant free play, but it'll take more than 1 player's card to make it really worthwhile;
The problem is that at this casino, any payout over $399.99 or causes a hand pay (although no tax forms are presented and no tax withheld, you still have to sign and they document the player and card#).
I would play NSU 5-coin @1.25 total bet per hand, which would mean my only hand-pay situation would be a natural royal. How much of a stink do you think if I hit it using another player's card? I could give them a decent cover story. I'd be using my girlfriend's card and could make an excuse like "OH, she couldn't come today and had free play on her card so she let me use it". Do you think this would fly? And if so, for how long?
What about my brother's card? We have the same last name, so it might give more viable credence to the story
I could just short-coin and play 4 coins, or play a different nickel machine 7 coins (when the 10 coin feature is enabled). The would knock my payback in the 98.5% range though, which would eat up TONS of EV.
What is the worst case scenario likely to happen? They stiff me on a measly $1K jackpot? (It is tribal land though....)
Thank you, this forum is great!
Don't do it. Quit scammin or pay the consequences.
Quote: FleaStiffThe moment I hear "tribal casino" I think of tribal police, tribal jail. tribal lawyers, tribal judge and that is all I need.
i had almost this exact post typed out and then scrapped it
Quote: bobbartopDon't do it. Quit scammin or pay the consequences.
Scamming is illegal. Using other players cards with permission of the cardholders is not illegal, therefore not a scam.
In another thread we are discussing how casinos feel vulturing Ultimate X multipliers is a cheat move and the work of scammers
Don't fall into the ugly casino trap of labeling every AP move a scam.
That said, the tribal lands autonomy is something to be wary of. However the biggest penalty would be refusal of payment. They won't throw him into tribal land prison I am pretty certain.
As long as he can prove his people gave him permission to use the cards
You are talking about doing something that in my opinion is scamming the casino. Tribal casinos make all the rules, so you don't know what the consequences may be. There are many ways you can "scam" an edge. If the casino makes an error in your favor, would you tell them about it? Scalping left over multipliers in my opinion is garbage picking. It's the same as picking tickets off the floor or harvesting change from an ATM. I once found a $100 bill under my chair in a casino. I had no idea who left it there. I waited around and there was no one near me, so I played it. I was playing with an edge. It didn't make me feel like a winner.
If your certainty turns out to have been misplaced, will you serve his ten days?Quote: darkozScamming is illegal. Using other players cards with permission of the cardholders is not illegal, therefore not a scam.
Don't fall into the ugly casino trap of labeling every AP move a scam.
That said, the tribal lands autonomy is something to be wary of. However the biggest penalty would be refusal of payment. They won't throw him into tribal land prison I am pretty certain.
Never be wary of tribal land sovereignty, be scared of it.
Quote: SingleCoinVPMy wife and I play on each other's card all the time. At MLife casinos we have the same account number. It always makes me nervous to play bigger than quarters on my wife's card. If I hit a hand pay, I'm not sure I would get paid. I believe they would pay me as long as they have a name and SS number. I'm sure our free play is not big enough for them to be that concerned about.
You are talking about doing something that in my opinion is scamming the casino. Tribal casinos make all the rules, so you don't know what the consequences may be. There are many ways you can "scam" an edge. If the casino makes an error in your favor, would you tell them about it? Scalping left over multipliers in my opinion is garbage picking. It's the same as picking tickets off the floor or harvesting change from an ATM. I once found a $100 bill under my chair in a casino. I had no idea who left it there. I waited around and there was no one near me, so I played it. I was playing with an edge. It didn't make me feel like a winner.
I don’t see how they wouldn’t pay you if they’re letting you share an account number in the first place. Some casinos do let husbands and wives share an account.
As far as multipliers go, what’s the difference between a vulture playing multipliers that were put there by someone else as opposed to some other player doing it? The only difference is the vulture is going to cash out when no longer at any advantage.
It’s posts like this one that just read as though there is supposed to be something generally wrong with playing at an advantage. Believe it or not, not everyone goes into a casino with the intention of losing money.
Also, finding someone else’s $100 that they dropped and playing it is not considered playing with an edge. The actual gambling (playing it) is no more or less -EV than as if it had been your own hundred. I would also caution that such an action would constitute straight theft in a few states: Colorado and Pennsylvania for sure.
I do not believe there is anything wrong with playing with an advantage. How, when and where you gain that advantage brings up some interesting questions. In his book "Million Dollar Video Poker", Bob Dancer stated he gained an advantage through a casino error in the comp payout. Should he have informed the casino of the error? If he was being paid by a casino as a consultant and found the same error, would he inform the casino or call an AP? When is gaining an edge wrong or is it always right?Quote: Mission146It’s posts like this one that just read as though there is supposed to be something generally wrong with playing at an advantage. Believe it or not, not everyone goes into a casino with the intention of losing money.
Quote: Mission146I don’t see how they wouldn’t pay you if they’re letting you share an account number in the first place. Some casinos do let husbands and wives share an account.
As far as multipliers go, what’s the difference between a vulture playing multipliers that were put there by someone else as opposed to some other player doing it? The only difference is the vulture is going to cash out when no longer at any advantage.
It’s posts like this one that just read as though there is supposed to be something generally wrong with playing at an advantage. Believe it or not, not everyone goes into a casino with the intention of losing money.
Also, finding someone else’s $100 that they dropped and playing it is not considered playing with an edge. The actual gambling (playing it) is no more or less -EV than as if it had been your own hundred. I would also caution that such an action would constitute straight theft in a few states: Colorado and Pennsylvania for sure.
Perhaps non-APs have difficulty telling the difference between legal AP and theft.
To compare accepting free gifts advertised as being offered to a person (and that person giving you permission to pick them up) with someone losing their money on the floor and a stranger just randomly picks it up is ridiculous. (Interesting that while svp puts down using free play as scammy he admits finding a $100 on the floor and playing it. -- hint to svp: try lost and found next time. All casinos have them usually at the security booth)
I imagine svp sees the difference as the free gift is offered to someone specific therefore it technically has his name.on it. Meanwhile that hundred dollar bill ("I don't see your name written on it").
Unfortunately I that interpretation of the law is completely reversed in reality
Is there anyone here who would have taken that $100 bill to lost and found? Just asking?Quote: darkozPerhaps non-APs have difficulty telling the difference between legal AP and theft.
To compare accepting free gifts advertised as being offered to a person (and that person giving you permission to pick them up) with someone losing their money on the floor and a stranger just randomly picks it up is ridiculous. (Interesting that while svp puts down using free play as scammy he admits finding a $100 on the floor and playing it. -- hint to svp: try lost and found next time. All casinos have them usually at the security booth)
I imagine svp sees the difference as the free gift is offered to someone specific therefore it technically has his name.on it. Meanwhile that hundred dollar bill ("I don't see your name written on it").
Unfortunately I that interpretation of the law is completely reversed in reality
Quote: SingleCoinVPScalping left over multipliers in my opinion is garbage picking.
Well I garbage picked my way to $13,000 tax free dollars this month. I’ll never know for sure but I think I would literally dive into a dumpster for $13k lol.
Why is vulturing leftover wilds and multipliers like garbage picking?
Quote: PokerGrinderWell I garbage picked my way to $13,000 tax free dollars this month. I’ll never know for sure but I think I would literally dive into a dumpster for $13k lol.
Why is vulturing leftover wilds and multipliers like garbage picking?
Maybe it is time for that old joke about a quarter in the men's urinal: it stayed there until one guy came along and tossed three additional quarters into it. Then he announced 'for a quarter, no but for a dollar yes.'
If I wasn't confident that I had just dropped that bill on the floor myself, I doubt that I would even pick it up. My inclination would be to watch over it (perhaps with my foot on it) and ask someone to summon a pit supervisor or similar employee to whom I would report it. I have picked up loose coins on the floor of stores or in parking lots, but when you get to a $100 bill, it is money that might be significantly important to someone, and it is not my nature to steal it from them, even if I do not know who they are. On a casino floor, surveillance could likely determine who dropped such a bill.Quote: SingleCoinVPIs there anyone here who would have taken that $100 bill to lost and found? Just asking?
Regarding honesty in a casino, yes, I have reported to table game dealers when they have overpaid me or paid me when my wager lost, although there have been times when I have not done that in cases where correcting the dealer error would have cost other players their payout. I think I even posted here about a time when a cashier overpaid me when I turned in chips, and it took me multiple tries to get her to pay it out correctly. (Not a major error in payout, but I felt a cashier ought to be able to count cash correctly.)
Quote: Mission146I would also caution that such an action would constitute straight theft in a few states: Colorado and Pennsylvania for sure.
Our one friends father was a part of setup for electrical wiring at Sands in Bethlehem, and he tells me everytime I bring up the casino, "If you find something on the floor dont pick it up, and if you do raise it above your head for the camera and proceed to the security booth to turn it in."
Quote: SingleCoinVPI do not believe there is anything wrong with playing with an advantage. How, when and where you gain that advantage brings up some interesting questions. In his book "Million Dollar Video Poker", Bob Dancer stated he gained an advantage through a casino error in the comp payout. Should he have informed the casino of the error? If he was being paid by a casino as a consultant and found the same error, would he inform the casino or call an AP? When is gaining an edge wrong or is it always right?
No, he should not have informed the casino of the error in the comp payout, unless you presume him to be an idiot...which he definitely is not. Do you think the casino has surveillance on the table games doing a real time audit of everything ready to correct any mistakes that work against the player? Answer: No. If there is a mistake and the player loses a bet that he should not have lost or doesn't get paid when he is supposed to, then the player usually has to make that error known to the casino and often has to jump through a hoop and a half to get that corrected.
There was a thread on here where a casino didn't have a maximum aggregate payout sign on a particular table on which one of the side bets hit for some huge amount, of course, they tried to say that a maximum aggregate payout was in effect and then they grabbed a sign and put it on that table after the fact. That player had to deal with gaming in order to get paid properly.
Your posts read like several of the ones out there that would seem to suggest that the players (particularly advantage players) need to operate with ethical standards that the casinos simply do not share, which is a ridiculous notion. Do you know that there are casinos out there that let self-excluded gamblers in, know damn well that they are self-excluded, but then it never becomes a problem until the person hits a jackpot.
For me, I only draw three lines:
1.) Legal v. Illegal
2.) Getting tossed v. Not getting tossed.
3.) Not taking directly from other players or doing anything that directly encourages other players in the casino to gamble more, gamble on a specific game or leave me with a favorable EV situation to the detriment of themselves.
As far as taking advantage of the casino in and of itself is concerned, screw them, anything legal goes. They can shove their internal rules, players club rules, whatever. It's not like all of their rules are even stated or as if they can't screw me whenever they want to even in the event that I operate fully within their rules.
Quote: heatmapOur one friends father was a part of setup for electrical wiring at Sands in Bethlehem, and he tells me everytime I bring up the casino, "If you find something on the floor dont pick it up, and if you do raise it above your head for the camera and proceed to the security booth to turn it in."
I have heard that advice from actual security in a casino as well.
Raising it above your head shows you are not placing it in your pocket while you walk it to the proper security location
Quote: SingleCoinVPIs there anyone here who would have taken that $100 bill to lost and found? Just asking?
In Pennsylvania, I definitely would have. If I were in Colorado, I would. I also don't think that I could just take cash and have actually never done that. I honestly am not sure that I was ever presented with the situation with a hundred. I found a dollar bill in a WV casino that I found near the entrance and offered to the security guy, he told me just to pocket it, so instead I stuck it in the little donation thing they have near the entrance to the casino floor. I also found a $20 sitting on the bar in a casino in Maryland with no apparent owner that was not in the position generally associated with it being a tip, in fact, it was sitting just to the left of the bill acceptor for the machine. I asked the bartender how long since anyone had been sitting there, he said about an hour, so I said, "Someone left this here," and slid the bill over to him to take the decision as to what to do with it out of my hands.
At one time, I would take abandoned credits (where legal) after waiting around nearby (or leaving and checking back) after a reasonable amount of time, but my views on even doing that have matured somewhat. It's honestly not worth any potential hassle to do it, in my opinion. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that I've decided that it's wrong for me and I don't want to do it. Casinos can toss you for any reason they want to and you never know if they are looking for an excuse to do so, so I'm certainly not going to give them one. Most often, I hit the cash out button and stick the ticket on top of the machine. In casinos where taking it is not illegal, if it's less than $5 and the casino has a donation thing, I'll sometimes cash it out and stick it on top of the machine, but if nobody has grabbed it by the time I am ready to leave the casino I'll go stick it in the donation thing.
Hate to say it, homeslice, but I am almost positive I would turn in a $100 bill even in a state where I don't have to. I think they can fill out some sort of form that you were the one who turned it in and then you get it if unclaimed, but that may not even be the case. Rather than seeing it as a quite probably drunk person leaving credits on a machine out of essentially neglect, I would look at a $100 as something more akin to a true accident. It probably fell out of someone's wallet, purse or money clip in a way not even necessarily due to them being drunk.
But, I'm not going to judge you for taking that $100 bill that was almost certainly accidentally dropped by someone without their realizing it. Why don't you tell me more about how my Vulturing UX machines is garbage-picking, though, I'd also love to hear a diatribe about same being morally bankrupt, if you're so inclined.
Quote: SingleCoinVPIs there anyone here who would have taken that $100 bill to lost and found? Just asking?
No. I would have put my foot on it, waved over the nearest security guard or slot attendant, pointed to it, and told them i just saw this bill on the floor.
My guess is that this idea of his is a rationalization to allow him saving face. His story about the $100 bill, perhaps even made up, is ironic. He has been expressing the idea that vulturing multipliers is of low moral standing ever since he made an offer of $100 to ANYONE (on videopoker.com) that could inform him of advantage plays in Florida. Someone quickly mentioned Ultimate X (along with progressives) and he welched on his offer. Ultimate X was seen as below him and progressives were not available every day. So, the story about keeping $100 that was due to someone else is not really all that surprising for longtime videopoker.com forum members.Quote: Mission146Why don't you tell me more about how my Vulturing UX machines is garbage-picking, though, I'd also love to hear a diatribe about same being morally bankrupt, if you're so inclined.
The good news is that I'm about to run a few errands, but I have 10-15 minutes first, so we're not done quite yet.
Let's talk some more about garbage picking:
Know this, the best piece of casino garbage that I ever picked up was that I once had a slot machine spin with a GUARANTEED MINIMUM 1000% Return-On-Investment, most likely, I've had better ones than that, but I mention that one because I know the specific percentage.
In the meantime, you seem to lobby under some sort of false belief that the casinos are not gambling: They are. They are gambling the same as the advantage players are and the same as any other players are.
Therefore, I ask you: If what I am doing amounts to garbage picking, then what is the casino doing when it is able to compel you into playing 2.xx% house edge video poker that you have said you have played? What is the casino doing when you gamble with them at a greater house edge than that by short-coining? I think it's pretty rare for me to even encounter vulturing plays that would have such a low percentage return, so why is one garbage picking and not the other?
Here's something else that you should know as a recreational player: I want to personally thank you for going to the casinos. The way that the whole thing works is really pretty simple:
You go to the casinos.
You play negative expectation games.
You are expected to lose money.
I go to casinos.
I play positive expectation games, circumstances or machines that are variable state and happen to be in a positive state.
I am expected to win money.
What happens if you and I were to both go to the same casino? The answer is pretty simple: Indirectly, by expectation, some of your money will become my money. That leads me to ask the question: Does that bother you? Are you irritated by the fact that you go to the casinos, play a negative expectation game and do so under your stated justification that better games are not available and that's how you have a good time WHEN that is combined with the fact that other players are going into the casino and are expected to win money that your good time provides for them?
Cry me a river.
I don't see what you think is better about the casinos to have all of the money based off of negative expectation gambling compared to other players having it when both parties are basically doing the exact same thing. I guess the difference is that one entity, by definition, must encourage you to gamble whereas the other entity does not. I certainly do not encourage anyone to gamble.
Also, where are your good friends, the casinos, who you so much love to give money to when you asked the question you asked last week about variance, house edge, expected loss etc. etc. of multi-hand video poker compared to single-line games? How come they couldn't just answer the question for you? My guess is probably because only some 5% of casino employees could even make a semi accurate guess as to the general meaning of the word.
Here's another question: Why do the casinos not put the returns for every individual slot machine on the machines themselves so that players can make an informed decision what machines they do or do not wish to play based on those returns? I doubt most people would play 15% edge games if they were being told, by the entity offering them, that's what they are playing. Unfortunately, the few players who I do try to tell simply won't take my word for it. If it weren't for the fact that websites, such as Wizard of Odds, published video poker calculators...you wouldn't know the returns for those games or the strategy for those either, absent figuring it out yourself somehow.
Anyway, so you have these entities (casinos) who take the money from negative expectation players in a huge variety of ways and try to get away with the absolute fullest extent that they can get away with in whatever jurisdiction is in question. In the meantime, you have advantage players who see that the casinos offer positive situations sometimes and seek to take advantage of those. You compare Ultimate X to a scam. You call it garbage-picking.
What are the casinos doing if not garbage picking if you think gambling at an advantage is garbage picking? And, congratulations to you my esteemed negative expectation (admission) video poker player friend...your money is the garbage.
But then, the old adage goes, "One man's trash is another man's treasure."
I never said Vulturing UX machines was morally bankrupt, I said it was garbage picking. There is a difference. If Vulturing UX machines is part of your strategy, more power to you. Our ticket redemption machines do not give out coins. I always leave the white change tickets in the machine. Twenty cents here, thirty cents there and you have enough for a shot at a jackpot. If you hit a royal flush, you could brag how playing with an advantage produced your profit.
Then there's this. I must get at least 5-6 offers a week for free drink glasses, bottles of booze, countertop ovens and jackets. Why not sell them at the flea market? We could come up with dozens of advantage opportunities like that. That's not the point. The point is why when it's so much easier to make money out of a casino?
Quote: SingleCoinVPIf there was anyone around me or if someone had just left from the chair I was in, I would have offered them the $100 bill. As I was alone and no one came back looking for it, I had a choice to make. It could have fallen out of my own pocket, who knows? It only happened once in all those years. What has happened more frequently is finding a sizeable ticket still in the machine. In every case, we either found the person who left it or gave it to the slot attendant. I have had this happen to me in reverse where someone gave me a ticket I left by mistake.
You did have a choice to make. If you had made the right choice, maybe you wouldn't be talking about how it maybe fell out of your own pocket. Do you not know how much cash you have on you when in the casino? I would probably know if I was leaving a hundred short or a hundred over, that's for sure.
Quote:I never said Vulturing UX machines was morally bankrupt, I said it was garbage picking. There is a difference. If Vulturing UX machines is part of your strategy, more power to you. Our ticket redemption machines do not give out coins. I always leave the white change tickets in the machine. Twenty cents here, thirty cents there and you have enough for a shot at a jackpot. If you hit a royal flush, you could brag how playing with an advantage produced your profit.
What in the hell are you going on about now? I have been yelled at, several times, by advantage player friends because I tend to leave the change in the cashout machines myself. Most Ultimate X plays, almost all of them, have a paper money expectation, even individually, not a metal money expectation.
Just, seriously, what the hell are you talking about? You know they put Ultimate X in high-limit rooms, right? You should know that. I believe you participated in a thread here related to that subject.
I once found three 8x multipliers on a $5 denomination triple-play machine at the Meadows Casino. Can you guess what the expectation on that one was? I'll just go ahead and tell you: The expectation on that particular $75 bet was nearly $600. (+$510-$520 somewhere in there) I'd say that comes out to a bit more than, "White change." Based on what you have said, I think my expectation just on that play was more than you often bring to the casino for a day.
Quote:Then there's this. I must get at least 5-6 offers a week for free drink glasses, bottles of booze, countertop ovens and jackets. Why not sell them at the flea market? We could come up with dozens of advantage opportunities like that. That's not the point. The point is why when it's so much easier to make money out of a casino?
I don't care what you sell or don't sell at a flea market. I seriously doubt that most such situations are an, "Advantage opportunity," in the sense that the resale value would make your overall play +EV, but maybe they are. I couldn't say for sure and also really don't care. The only gambling I really do concerns vulturing and progressives and the only comp that I care about is free play.
EDIT :
And I know I have dropped money, because an asian started to stand next to me wierd and someone came over who was watching the asian stand on top of my money to steal it and ratted them out. So this is why I also disagree.
I'm surprised they gave you anything for turning in that ring. I would have done the same. A piece of jewelry has an identity. I would never keep something like that. A $100 bill does not. If I had turned that $100 bill into lost and found, they would still be laughing at me.Quote: heatmapI was a noob when it came to casinos at this point, but I was sweeping the floor for extra players cards just to see how many I could gather. Who knows what my plans were after. So I have my head slightly down to look on the floor as well as around every slot and within the slot machines themselves. On a thin "shelve" around the bottom of a slot machine I see what I think to be a cheap ring as the metal it was made of seemed cheap and the actual top of the ring was not facing me. I pick the ring up and there is a HUGE ruby surrounded by a bunch of smaller saphires surrounded by a bunch of diamonds. I returned it and they actually gave me some free play. Pit managers to this day still laugh when they see the note about it.
Quote: SingleCoinVPI'm surprised they gave you anything for turning in that ring. I would have done the same. A piece of jewelry has an identity. I would never keep something like that. A $100 bill does not. if I had turned that $100 into lost and found, they would still be laughing.
As I had stated when I opened the statement, I also agree with advantage play based on cards, but not necessarily picking up money. Not that I havent done it myself either, except in the form of chips, when I really had no clue as to why it was morally wrong or how much actual trouble I could get into when the advantages/opportunities within the casino were were far more valuable to me than that $100 which is how I rationalize against it. And disguising yourself and hiding from the people within the casino to play within the casino is not fun.
Edit :
and also, its not that they may not review the video for you per say, i actually think you have a very good chance of them never knowing you took that money, but when they are prompted to do any kind of investigation and are required to review all angles of an incident and you MAY be in those videos and they can make a separate case, where they instruct someone to "follow the money" per say in those videos. Highly unlikely but still possible because they save videos for a decently long time these days too.
Quote: SingleCoinVPA number of years ago I was playing video poker at the Ameristar in Black Hawk Colorado. I was on vacation and I guess I looked kind of scruffy. I like to play single coin VP for reasons that have nothing to do with mathematics. I was walking around playing a little in each machine. They have a lot of machines. A younger man saw me and must have thought I was down on my luck. He walked up to me and gave me a $50 ticket. I accepted the ticket and thanked him. As he walked away, I thought what a great person he was. He saw what he thought was an old man playing his monthly pension check and out of the kindness of his heart gave me money. He had no way of knowing who I was or how much money I was carrying. This act told me he cared more about another person than making a profit.
What does that have to do with advantage players? I saw a guy playing an advantage machine (he knew it was) run out of credits on one occasion, I swooped in and took the play and gave him $20 of the winnings even though I didn’t make very much on the play. I sat down and planned to give half of whatever I won because I noticed him standing around watching me and looking dejected.
He liked to bet the races. Terrible for business for me because, of the few vulture plays he knew, one of them was the best one in the house. More than that, he was just going to eventually, “Give back,” anything he won anyway.
Still, I couldn’t help but feel bad for him. I’ve helped out a few other people that I’ve seen around also. I’ve met other hustlers who weren’t doing so well who I put on better opportunities and drove them around all over the place. I wrote an article about one of them I met in my travels.
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/the-vultures-are-dead/
I can’t speak for every AP on Earth, but lots of us look out for each other and look out for others. I donate blood, volunteer at a soup kitchen and do all kinds of other little helpful stuff here and there. I try not to talk about it too much because it’s usually not relevant to anything. I just don’t know why you would impugn all APs in such a way. I’ll admit I pimp donating blood a good bit on Facebook, but that’s just because I don’t understand why anyone who is medically able to do so wouldn’t.
I mostly got into advantage play because, like you, I think gambling can be a fun hobby. I also try to go at times where what I see is less likely to depress me than it sometimes does. But, the gambling aspect itself and discovering new machines and plays I think is fun. You think negative expectation gambling is fun, which is fine, it just so happens I generally don’t have fun (but rarely do have fun) doing that. I prefer being expected to win and have fun doing that.
Honestly, even that’s not all that fun anymore! I think I went to the casino less in 2019 than any other time in the 2010’s. It was just a bad year in terms of what I saw with the impact gambling was having on some people. I also quit drinking March of last year, so the depression, in general, rears its ugly head a lot more than it used to.
Quote: SingleCoinVPA number of years ago I was playing video poker at the Ameristar in Black Hawk Colorado. I was on vacation and I guess I looked kind of scruffy. I like to play single coin VP for reasons that have nothing to do with mathematics. I was walking around playing a little in each machine. They have a lot of machines. A younger man saw me and must have thought I was down on my luck. He walked up to me and gave me a $50 ticket. I accepted the ticket and thanked him. As he walked away, I thought what a great person he was. He saw what he thought was an old man playing his monthly pension check and out of the kindness of his heart gave me money. He had no way of knowing who I was or how much money I was carrying. This act told me he cared more about another person than making a profit.
OH PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, go to Colorado casinos and pick up some lost money or vouchers. Please, I am begging you.
Quote: bobbartopOH PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, go to Colorado casinos and pick up some lost money or vouchers. Please, I am begging you.
The intent of your post is obvious. ..... Serious question..... If I'm sitting at a BJ table and see a $20 on the floor and pick it up and keep it, do you think that anything more than being asked to forfeit it will happen?
Friend did something clearly worse, clearly illegal.... He added a chip to a winning bet. It was a $25 chip. So he was paid $25 more than he should have been. Didn't hide it... Sort of mistakingly doubled but after the hand.... Sensed he did something wrong...... Half hour or so later security asks him to come with them. They told him what he did, noticed he made no more illegal plays, (he is a poppy) , and told him they can arrest him..... unless he gives them $25. He did so, of course, and he was free to go. (This was in Canada).
I don't think security wants to arrest money picker uppers...... unless when confronted they refuse to relinquish the ill gotten gains.
Quote: SOOPOOThe intent of your post is obvious. ..... Serious question..... If I'm sitting at a BJ table and see a $20 on the floor and pick it up and keep it, do you think that anything more than being asked to forfeit it will happen?
Friend did something clearly worse, clearly illegal.... He added a chip to a winning bet. It was a $25 chip. So he was paid $25 more than he should have been. Didn't hide it... Sort of mistakingly doubled but after the hand.... Sensed he did something wrong...... Half hour or so later security asks him to come with them. They told him what he did, noticed he made no more illegal plays, (he is a poppy) , and told him they can arrest him..... unless he gives them $25. He did so, of course, and he was free to go. (This was in Canada).
I don't think security wants to arrest money picker uppers...... unless when confronted they refuse to relinquish the ill gotten gains.
They must have been watching him play for a long time I have had security call down to pit managers for a dealer overpaying me and I’ve had to give back money
Quote: SOOPOOThe intent of your post is obvious. ..... Serious question..... If I'm sitting at a BJ table and see a $20 on the floor and pick it up and keep it, do you think that anything more than being asked to forfeit it will happen?
Friend did something clearly worse, clearly illegal.... He added a chip to a winning bet. It was a $25 chip. So he was paid $25 more than he should have been. Didn't hide it... Sort of mistakingly doubled but after the hand.... Sensed he did something wrong...... Half hour or so later security asks him to come with them. They told him what he did, noticed he made no more illegal plays, (he is a poppy) , and told him they can arrest him..... unless he gives them $25. He did so, of course, and he was free to go. (This was in Canada).
I don't think security wants to arrest money picker uppers...... unless when confronted they refuse to relinquish the ill gotten gains.
You picked the WRONG state if you try to do that in Colorado. They'll prosecute and fine and bar for anything. They've done it for less than $2.00 in abandoned slot credits that were taken accidentally.
ADDED: Matter of fact, I've already written an article about just this thing, here you go:
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/know-the-laws-part-II/
Quote: SOOPOOThe intent of your post is obvious. ..... Serious question..... If I'm sitting at a BJ table and see a $20 on the floor and pick it up and keep it, do you think that anything more than being asked to forfeit it will happen?
First of all, I wasn't trying to be mean. I fully intended to visit SVP on weekends. If he smokes, I'll bring him some cigarettes. And a cake with a hacksaw in it.
SooPoo, as you can see from Mission's subsequent post, Colorado just happens to be going ballistic. So to answer your question, it depends. It depends where you are. My mind is drawing a blank right now but there is another great story about two little old ladies who picked up 5-cents, or something like that. My old brain tells me it was somewhere like Michigan. Maybe Mission knows the story off the top of his head. I have to look it up.
I have a serious question too. Why doesn't SVP think that he is going to be noticed in whatever he does in a casino? He has been playing all of his life, and somehow he doesn't know they've got cameras everywhere, cameras that can see a gnat's navel.
For myself, I read all these casino articles. I know better than to keep a penny I find. I would say that in 2019 there were at least three times I turned in money. Once, there was a $5 bill, I put my foot on it and told the drink girl to go get Security. Another time, a $40 voucher was sticking out of a machine all by itself, saying "take me, take me". And I did take it. Straight to Security. And then, just recently, a folded up $100 bill was behind some players, I picked it up and called a nearby slot tech and they got it to Security. I don't mess around.
Now, on the other hand, a few years ago I found a hundred in the parking lot, at night. ALL MINE, BABY!
Quote: heatmapI have had security call down to pit managers for a dealer overpaying me and I’ve had to give back money
There's a preferential problem with this. Do the same guys call the pit when a dealer UNDERpayed you?
I suspect this is a one-way street.
Quote: bobbartopThere's a preferential problem with this. Do the same guys call the pit when a dealer UNDERpayed you?
I suspect this is a one-way street.
I have a short story from a few months ago. At a small casino, I play frequently, and am very friendly with everyone, including management. I don't look at the player-casino relationship as adversarial. Not this place anyway.
So I'm playing a table game, and there was some confusion, probably because me and the friendly dealer were talking it up. Suddenly, he lost track and thought maybe he did not pay me for a $50 wager. I thought for a second and said, "No, I'm pretty sure you paid me." He said, "No, I don't think so". And I said, "Yes, I think so." lol This is crazy. So we called the floorman over, who is a great guy, and we explained what happened. So we all agreed to set $50 on the side and have them check the cameras. It was a long wait. Finally, after what seemed like forever, the floorman came back, picked up the two green chips and tossed them to me. That's a true story.
Quote: bobbartopFirst of all, I wasn't trying to be mean. I fully intended to visit SVP on weekends. If he smokes, I'll bring him some cigarettes. And a cake with a hacksaw in it.
SooPoo, as you can see from Mission's subsequent post, Colorado just happens to be going ballistic. So to answer your question, it depends. It depends where you are. My mind is drawing a blank right now but there is another great story about two little old ladies who picked up 5-cents, or something like that. My old brain tells me it was somewhere like Michigan. Maybe Mission knows the story off the top of his head. I have to look it up.
I have a serious question too. Why doesn't SVP think that he is going to be noticed in whatever he does in a casino? He has been playing all of his life, and somehow he doesn't know they've got cameras everywhere, cameras that can see a gnat's navel.
For myself, I read all these casino articles. I know better than to keep a penny I find. I would say that in 2019 there were at least three times I turned in money. Once, there was a $5 bill, I put my foot on it and told the drink girl to go get Security. Another time, a $40 voucher was sticking out of a machine all by itself, saying "take me, take me". And I did take it. Straight to Security. And then, just recently, a folded up $100 bill was behind some players, I picked it up and called a nearby slot tech and they got it to Security. I don't mess around.
Now, on the other hand, a few years ago I found a hundred in the parking lot, at night. ALL MINE, BABY!
Bobbartop
The nickel old lady story is discussed by Nersessian in his book.
I believe it was motor City in Chicago. It was one old lady who took a nickel from a slot. She was backroomed, forced to return the nickel and trespassed.
Additionally she was told she could not even wait for her return bus because the Pu was on casino property. The 70+ old lady had to walk quite a distance until she found some store that called a relative to pick her up (this is before cell phones were common)
The jury was horrified at the civil suit. She received $750,000.
Quite an expensive nickel
Quote: darkozBobbartop
The nickel old lady story is discussed by Nersessian in his book.
I believe it was motor City in Chicago. It was one old lady who took a nickel from a slot. She was backroomed, forced to return the nickel and trespassed.
Additionally she was told she could not even wait for her return bus because the Pu was on casino property. The 70+ old lady had to walk quite a distance until she found some store that called a relative to pick her up (this is before cell phones were common)
The jury was horrified at the civil suit. She received $750,000.
Quite an expensive nickel
Thanks, Dark Oz, that sounds like the one. But Chicago does not ring a bell. I still think it was Michigan, but I have been wrong before. Seriously, I have been wrong before, maybe once or twice. I've got to look this up. Also, the story I'm thinking about had TWO little old ladies in it. Be patient with me, I'm on meds.
Quote: bobbartopThanks, Dark Oz, that sounds like the one. But Chicago does not ring a bell. I still think it was Michigan, but I have been wrong before. Seriously, I have been wrong before, maybe once or twice. I've got to look this up. Also, the story I'm thinking about had TWO little old ladies in it. Be patient with me, I'm on meds.
Sorry, you are correct. Detroit Michigan
https://www.lawcrossing.com/article/1761/Just-For-a-Nickel-Token/
Quote: darkozSorry, you are correct. Detroit Michigan
https://www.lawcrossing.com/article/1761/Just-For-a-Nickel-Token/
Definitely. Thank you, Dark Oz, I looked and looked and I couldn't find it. But that's it. I would never have remembered Motor City, I thought it might be Greektown or Soaring Eagle, but that would have been wrong. And there was a second old lady involved.
Wow, what a mess. What a stupid move by the casino. No wonder I couldn't remember. That was 2001. Long time ago, it didn't seem like it was that long ago.
Thanks again.
Good. Y'all can call me a coward but with all those people paid to watch and all those cameras and all those cops and radios, I don't mess around either. some of those guys have 40/20 vision surgeries: they see at 40 feet what others see at 20 feet.Quote: bobbartopI don't mess around.
one way street? yeah, it often is. so what?
My predictions about the direction of video poker are proving to be true. Ten years ago, I predicted that all video poker games would be negative. We are not all there yet, but it's getting closer. I said video poker would be replaced with penny slots and it's happening. I also said video poker strategy books would be worthless. I was wrong about that. Video poker math has value. You can use it to predetermine the cost of playing today's negative games and help you to reduce that cost.
On Thursday I went to the Tampa Hard Rock. Like always, I played video poker. I was sitting next to a man playing 8/5 double double bonus. When I noticed he hit 4 aces with a kicker, I congratulated him. I looked over to see what denomination he was playing. He was playing quarters. I expected to see at least $500 in his credit total. It was $150. I then noticed he was playing single coin. He probably expected me to make a comment about playing single coin as this happens to me all the time. I told him he was a smart man to play that way and he smiled. He knew the math just like I did.
Our penny slot return is 10% or less. Our minimum penny slot bet is now 68 cents a hand. It's been steadily creeping up with many so-called penny sots at two cents or more per credit. I expect it won't be long until casinos start blocking all video poker coin buttons forcing a larger minimum bet. The video poker machines in the Tampa Hard Rock High Limit room have their coin buttons blocked now.
Anyway you look at it, video poker is going the way of all formerly advantage casino games. With a smaller ever shrinking customer base, casinos have to make as much profit as they can from the players who are left.
Casinos may cry about an ever shrinking customer base but even if that is true acasino can simply drum up more customers instead of putting the squeeze on the remaining ones.Quote: SingleCoinVP
Anyway you look at it, video poker is going the way of all formerly advantage casino games. With a smaller than ever shrinking customer base, casinos have to make as much profit as they can from the players who are left.
Quote: FleaStiffCasinos may cry about an ever shrinking customer base but even if that is true acasino can simply drum up more customers instead of putting the squeeze on the remaining ones.
How much of a decline are we talking about? Yeah, I walk into some casinos that seem dead, but oftentimes they seem just fine. Granted, that's all anecdotal, but I'd be surprised if thinking were really so bad as to justify the worsening paytables, poorer table game conditions, rising resort fees, parking fees and whatever else is happening to put the squeeze on people.
Quote: PokerGrinderWell I garbage picked my way to $13,000 tax free dollars this month. I’ll never know for sure but I think I would literally dive into a dumpster for $13k lol.
Why is vulturing leftover wilds and multipliers like garbage picking?
.
You won 13k dollars tax free in a month? Pics??? Only vulturing? I wish I've won that in the last 6 years part-time.
Last big hit in April at M Resort. Didn't post the trip, and the last nine trips to Vegas, partly thanks to EvenBob.
Quote: tringlomane.
You won 13k dollars tax free in a month? Pics??? Only vulturing? I wish I've won that in the last 6 years part-time.
Last big hit in April at M Resort. Didn't post the trip, and the last nine trips to Vegas, partly thanks to EvenBob.
Since it was tax-free (not jackpots), why would he take pics?
I don't vulture but I saw someone who does wait about 15 minutes for a player to get up from a vulturable machine. When the vulture had his chance he wound up winning close to $200.
Repeated on a daily basis, hour upon hour it adds up
$13,000 in a month is not difficult to believe.
