RIP FPDW
Quote: Dyvan13I lived in Vegas my whole life up until early 2019. I moved to Phoenix to be closer to my grandparents and parents. I was planning a trip and now it looks like FPDW has died. It is a sad day indeed for low-level VP players. At least when I lived there I played them like a piano.
There's another thread somewhere about this. I believe the last nail in the coffin was January 16th. I'm going over it in my head and trying to reverse order how they went out. Seems like just a couple months but it was actually a year, exactly, when Skyline pulled the plug. I never thought they'd give in. Before that, best my memory can do, would be the old Gold Strike in Jean. That was five years ago. I still feel there must be a couple machines hiding in the desert somewhere, but you do a search and ONLY Sam's Town comes up for all of Nevada, for all of the universe. What's the over/under on THAT?
Of course, there were a couple flukes, which I guess could always pop up again, like at the Grand downtown recently, which was a deliberate but ODD casino move. I'm still hoping Anthony Curtis, or someone, anyone, can speak of what really happened at Stations, the fly on the wall when they made the decision to 'pull it' like WTC7, I really thought Stations would hang on for years to come. I was wrong again.
RIP
Quote: SingleCoinVPWill you quit the game? Just curious.
Quit what game? Just curious.
I swear, I'm not going to let you talk me out of my discipline and get myself suspended again. Go ahead, try, test me. I know you wanna.
I am also curious about what video poker experts will be discussing when profit is removed from the game? Will websites like this continue to exist?
Quote: SingleCoinVPI am not trying to get anyone suspended. I am curious if anyone will quit playing video poker when all the games are negative? The best dollar game at our local casino is 99%. Most of the games are 96%. We are not noticing any drop off in the number of players. If anything, video poker seems more popular now than ever. I suspect Vegas will be no different.
I am also curious about what video poker experts will be discussing when profit is removed from the game? Will websites like this continue to exist?
Do you notice there is no "Wheel of Fortune" slot machine thread? People still play it, but since there is no profit motive to play it, there is virtually nothing of interest to talk about. People like you (and me) will of course continue to play unless the pay tables deteriorate to a point where you don't even feel you have a chance. But for someone, you know, an AP, they will factor in the new odds and play the game substantially less frequently. There may be point multiplier days, loss rebate opportunities, Diamond in a Day type events, etc... that they would still play a 96% machine.
So, to answer your question, there will be a slight drop off amongst casual VP players, and a much larger drop off amongst AP VP players.
Quote: SOOPOODo you notice there is no "Wheel of Fortune" slot machine thread? People still play it, but since there is no profit motive to play it, there is virtually nothing of interest to talk about. People like you (and me) will of course continue to play unless the pay tables deteriorate to a point where you don't even feel you have a chance. But for someone, you know, an AP, they will factor in the new odds and play the game substantially less frequently. There may be point multiplier days, loss rebate opportunities, Diamond in a Day type events, etc... that they would still play a 96% machine.
So, to answer your question, there will be a slight drop off amongst casual VP players, and a much larger drop off amongst AP VP players.
His question was typically vague, nebulous, if not deliberately so, annoyingly so. "Will you continue to play it", and I said 'play what', like what was he talking about, deuces? Obviously not fpdw, which made up only a very teeny tiny fraction of video poker available anyway, but why would we not play "deuces", when there is a huge amount of deuces still in the universe, and always will be. Why would this signal the death knell of video poker? It doesn't. Who played fpdw anyway? Only the few quarter players who live near a Stations casino. What percent of profitable players did that amount to? Merely a blip on the screen. I can't help it if he lives near some crappy casinos, that's his problem. I live near some terrific casinos, and I don't live in Nevada. I just make it a point to keep my eyes open, and my mind open. Maybe I work harder.
The topic of this thread, which got changed VERY quickly, was to say goodbye to fpdw. Sad, but not tear eliciting. The glass is more than half full.
I agree. Video poker is an enjoyable way to spent some leisure time. It's no different than golf or fishing. Actually, I find it much cheaper. Most players where I play VP are seniors. They have the expendable income and time to do whatever they like, but their bodies limit their choices. I understand the allure of full pay games. I also understand why they are going away. In the scheme of things, I don't believe it makes much difference.Quote: bobbartopWhy would this signal the death knell of video poker? It doesn't.
When all video poker games are negative including comps, it may change the narrative. Instead of touting the profit potential, we could help players get more entertainment for their money.
Quote: SingleCoinVPI am not trying to get anyone suspended. I am curious if anyone will quit playing video poker when all the games are negative? The best dollar game at our local casino is 99%. Most of the games are 96%. We are not noticing any drop off in the number of players. If anything, video poker seems more popular now than ever. I suspect Vegas will be no different.
I am also curious about what video poker experts will be discussing when profit is removed from the game? Will websites like this continue to exist?
All the games are not negative. There are still games with over 100% RTP (BEFORE any players club benefits) in las vegas and elsewhere. There are games over 99.5% in Florida for dollars. I think we are a very long time away from the ability to make a profit is entirely removed from the game. Certainly most players profiting from VP aren't playing FPDW for quarters anyway, maybe there were/are a few but it would be fairly tough to make minimum wage on that game, and the people capable of doing so are generally smart enough to make more $ elsewhere. Of course these websites will continue to exist, the vast majority of readers here are recreational gamblers who play losing games all the time.
There will always be opportunities for those who wish to exploit them. Those that play video poker strictly for profit are a very small percentage of players. As you pointed out, most players play for entertainment. What troubles me is the dominance "for profit" players seem to have in the conversation. Most players don't have access to positive games. Even if they do, they don't have the skill, resources and dedication it takes to profit. Video poker is an extremely addictive and potentially destructive activity. That should concern all of us, especially those who profit from the game.Quote: WTflushAll the games are not negative. There are still games with over 100% RTP (BEFORE any players club benefits) in las vegas and elsewhere. There are games over 99.5% in Florida for dollars. I think we are a very long time away from the ability to make a profit is entirely removed from the game. Certainly most players profiting from VP aren't playing FPDW for quarters anyway, maybe there were/are a few but it would be fairly tough to make minimum wage on that game, and the people capable of doing so are generally smart enough to make more $ elsewhere. Of course these websites will continue to exist, the vast majority of readers here are recreational gamblers who play losing games all the time.
Quote: SingleCoinVPThere will always be opportunities for those who wish to exploit them. Those that play video poker strictly for profit are a very small percentage of players. As you pointed out, most players play for entertainment. What troubles me is the dominance "for profit" players seem to have in the conversation. Most players don't have access to positive games. Even if they do, they don't have the skill, resources and dedication it takes to profit. Video poker is an extremely addictive and potentially destructive activity. That should concern all of us, especially those who profit from the game.
I think you have said something like this before once before. There are plenty making money in casinos. Nobody cares.
It's not as if there was a nightly meet up of APs at Skyline before they removed their game, which was the best in town.
Now if they had pulled 100 play FpDW games, that would be worth mourning but those days are long gone, if they ever existed.
Those that put in the work will continue to thrive and lazy people will continue to complain they don't have access to the secret plans.
Quote: billryan
Those that put in the work will continue to thrive and lazy people will continue to complain they don't have access to the secret plans.
Uh oh, there's the "L-word".
Quote: billryanNone of the many APs I know in Vegas bothered with this game. What person who understands AP would bother with a game that pays a whopping six dollars an hour. I was told the games at Stations severely punished players on mailings and promos and that they were best avoided.
It's not as if there was a nightly meet up of APs at Skyline before they removed their game, which was the best in town.
Now if they had pulled 100 play FpDW games, that would be worth mourning but those days are long gone, if they ever existed.
Those that put in the work will continue to thrive and lazy people will continue to complain they don't have access to the secret plans.
The Skyline play was much better than Stations and lasted close to 30 years.
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/planet-fitness-moviepass-and-casinos/
It looks at the success of Planet Fitness and the failure of MoviePass, both of which were enterprises who went out of their way to seek value customers. The conclusion amounts to the fact that these mechanisms do not apply to casinos, value customers are no longer needed, and therefore, are no longer sought after.
I enjoy going to the casino or I wouldn't go. I am grateful to the casino for allowing me to play there. Before the tribes brought casinos to Florida, I had to drive 9 hours to play video poker. I have played video poker all over this country. I have never seen a casino game that I felt was worth the risk of playing $25 or more a hand. I suspect there are members of this forum who see me as a fool for not taking advantage of an opportunity. I don't see the casino as an opportunity. All I am buying is a day's entertainment.
Quote: SingleCoinVPI consider myself the average casino patron. What does the average casino patron like me want? We are buying an experience. I enjoy the casino environment, playing the games, meeting with friends and being somewhere other than sitting on my couch watching Fox News. Young people go to Dave and Busters. I go to the casino. The question I ask myself is how much am I willing to pay for that experience? The casino wants me to pay as much as possible. I would like to pay what I feel it's worth.
I enjoy going to the casino or I wouldn't go. I am grateful to the casino for allowing me to play there. Before the tribes brought casinos to Florida, I had to drive 9 hours to play video poker. I have played video poker all over this country. I have never seen a casino game that I felt was worth the risk of playing $25 or more a hand. I suspect there are members of this forum who see me as a fool for not taking advantage of an opportunity. I don't see the casino as an opportunity. All I am buying is a day's entertainment.
Breaking news, casino patron seeks entertainment.
Up next, water is wet.
Seems obvious, doesn't it? There are some video poker players who don't look at a casino the same way as I do. To them, going to a casino is work. I'm fine with that as long as they don't minimize those that see the casino as entertainment. It takes all kinds of players to keep a casino in business. I am paying the casino's bills because I enjoy the service they provide. If they are getting rich off my quarters, I'm fine with that too.Quote: sabreBreaking news, casino patron seeks entertainment. Up next, water is wet.
Quote: SingleCoinVPSeems obvious, doesn't it? There are some video poker players who don't look at a casino the same way as I do. To them, going to a casino is work. I'm fine with that as long as they don't minimize those that see the casino as entertainment. It takes all kinds of players to keep a casino in business. I am paying the casino's bills because I enjoy the service they provide. If they are getting rich off my quarters, I'm fine with that too.
True, true, and true! Just not interesting enough to post ad infinitum.
Quote: SingleCoinVPSeems obvious, doesn't it? There are some video poker players who don't look at a casino the same way as I do. To them, going to a casino is work. I'm fine with that as long as they don't minimize those that see the casino as entertainment. It takes all kinds of players to keep a casino in business. I am paying the casino's bills because I enjoy the service they provide. If they are getting rich off my quarters, I'm fine with that too.
Maybe it's players who think like you that are the problem. If players were more discerning, there would be better video poker.
Is it the fault of the players that full pay video poker games are being removed from casinos or is it the fault of the experts for teaching us how to identify the best games and make the best plays?Quote: bobbartopMaybe it's players who think like you that are the problem. If players were more discerning, there would be better video poker.
Video poker machines cost money. They take up the same floor space as a 90% penny slot. At the casinos where I play, penny slots are the most popular games by far. Video poker continues to exist because most players will play no matter what the odds. If a few players stay home because they don't have an edge, good riddance.
At this time, video poker is still the best game in the casino. Sooner or later all video poker returns will be on par with slots. This is pure economics. When that happens, odds and perfect play will be meaningless. If you win, it will be because you were sitting in the right seat at the right time.
Quote: SingleCoinVPIs it the fault of the players that full pay video poker games are being removed from casinos or is it the fault of the experts for teaching us how to identify the best games and make the best plays?
Video poker machines cost money. They take up the same floor space as a 90% penny slot. At the casinos where I play, penny slots are the most popular games by far. Video poker continues to exist because most players will play no matter what the odds. If a few players stay home because they don't have an edge, good riddance.
At this time, video poker is still the best game in the casino. Sooner or later all video poker returns will be on par with slots. This is pure economics. When that happens, odds and perfect play will be meaningless. If you win, it will be because you were sitting in the right seat at the right time.
I agree with you. I watch lots of people play 95%-96% video poker everyday. People will play whateveryou put in front of them. Outside of nevada video poker is pretty much disappearing and 90% video slots are going to 85%.
Quote: SingleCoinVPIs it the fault of the players that full pay video poker games are being removed from casinos or is it the fault of the experts for teaching us how to identify the best games and make the best plays?
Video poker machines cost money. They take up the same floor space as a 90% penny slot. At the casinos where I play, penny slots are the most popular games by far. Video poker continues to exist because most players will play no matter what the odds. If a few players stay home because they don't have an edge, good riddance.
At this time, video poker is still the best game in the casino. Sooner or later all video poker returns will be on par with slots. This is pure economics. When that happens, odds and perfect play will be meaningless. If you win, it will be because you were sitting in the right seat at the right time.
I disagree with the premise of your first question that it's an either/or situation. In no particular order, here's where I would put the blame.
1.) Availability of information and ease of access to optimal strategy. (Like you said)
2.) Video Poker players who are clearly willing to accept bad paytables.
3.) Slots players, in general. If slots were refused outright because of the high house edge, then they would either have to improve or the slots players would all play video poker. Of course, you'd need them to refuse bad paytables there, as well.
4.) The casinos themselves for being cheap. If I owned a casino, I'd probably put in a bank of five machines with the highest returning game being 100.6%. Rather than screw around with a huge amount of coin-in needed per point, (why would I give them extra, anyway?) the machines simply would not accept players cards. They would also all be single-line quarters.
Figure at 1500 hands per hour (super fast) of perfection:
(1875 * 1.006) -1875 = $11.25/hour
BFD, you know? Some guy two rows over makes sixty spins on a $2.00/spin penny machine and that's more than covered. He covers what my video poker guy makes in expectation in an hour in a matter of minutes. Hell, maybe I'll even throw a .1% progressive meter on there for giggles.
---That said, I don't disagree with your take on the casino perspective. Why do they want profitable players playing on something that is just handed to them who might also be getting free drinks?
As far as the last part, I agree that whatever the worst set of circumstances players will be willing to tolerate will be what will eventually happen.
Negative video poker games are here to stay. The question is what are you going to do about it?
Quote: SingleCoinVPLet's suppose all the video poker players throughout the country revolted and refused to play unless the games were positive. Would the casino reinstall FPDW or 10/6 DDB? Positive video poker games existed because players did not or could not play them accurately. For $50 or $9 a month, you can learn to play like an expert. I doubt that many players do, but the accumulative effect forces casinos to downgrade those games.
Negative video poker games are here to stay. The question is what are you going to do about it?
The hell kind of question is that? I'm going to seize the means of production. I'm going to single-handedly launch a counter-revolution to bad video poker. I'm going to become a billionaire 600 times over and buy every casino in the country and start offering good video poker nationwide. The rise of the video poker proletariat is on the horizon, comrade.
Quote: SingleCoinVPLet's suppose all the video poker players throughout the country revolted and refused to play unless the games were positive. Would the casino reinstall FPDW or 10/6 DDB? Positive video poker games existed because players did not or could not play them accurately. For $50 or $9 a month, you can learn to play like an expert. I doubt that many players do, but the accumulative effect forces casinos to downgrade those games.
Negative video poker games are here to stay. The question is what are you going to do about it?
Forget about the positive games, man. You hear what you wanna hear. I'm saying if the morons who booze it up and play 7-5 Double Double at P.T.'s Pub would just be reasonably discerning and demand 8-5 Bonus at the minimum or not even enter said establishment, said establishment would put in 8-5 Bonus Poker or face having no business. They'd cough it up, and they'd stay in business.
Quote: SingleCoinVPIs it the fault of the players that full pay video poker games are being removed from casinos or is it the fault of the experts for teaching us how to identify the best games and make the best plays?
Video poker machines cost money. They take up the same floor space as a 90% penny slot. At the casinos where I play, penny slots are the most popular games by far. Video poker continues to exist because most players will play no matter what the odds. If a few players stay home because they don't have an edge, good riddance.
I didn't say anything about an edge, don't twist and put words in my mouth, dude. It's all YOUR fault, because you'll play anything to get your fix. Reasonably discerning, or don't play. If your "ilk" would stop playing total crap, and just learn A LITTLE BIT about the game, not necessarily become experts, just a little bit, casinos would put a stop to downgrading 8-5 Bonus to 7-5 Bonus, let alone 6-5 Bonus.
JUST SAY NO, to under 98.5%.
Quote: Mission146I disagree with the premise of your first question that it's an either/or situation. In no particular order, here's where I would put the blame.
1.) Availability of information and ease of access to optimal strategy. (Like you said)
2.) Video Poker players who are clearly willing to accept bad paytables.
3.) Slots players, in general. If slots were refused outright because of the high house edge, then they would either have to improve or the slots players would all play video poker. Of course, you'd need them to refuse bad paytables there, as well.
4.) The casinos themselves for being cheap. If I owned a casino, I'd probably put in a bank of five machines with the highest returning game being 100.6%. Rather than screw around with a huge amount of coin-in needed per point, (why would I give them extra, anyway?) the machines simply would not accept players cards. They would also all be single-line quarters.
Figure at 1500 hands per hour (super fast) of perfection:
(1875 * 1.006) -1875 = $11.25/hour
BFD, you know? Some guy two rows over makes sixty spins on a $2.00/spin penny machine and that's more than covered. He covers what my video poker guy makes in expectation in an hour in a matter of minutes. Hell, maybe I'll even throw a .1% progressive meter on there for giggles.
---That said, I don't disagree with your take on the casino perspective. Why do they want profitable players playing on something that is just handed to them who might also be getting free drinks?
As far as the last part, I agree that whatever the worst set of circumstances players will be willing to tolerate will be what will eventually happen.
I watch the players at my local joints. I kinda figure, in general, that decent video poker is a form of PLAYER DEVELOPMENT. The slot addicts generally come in once or twice a month, blow their wad, don't even put their card in the machine, and go back to their mundane existence. But if you get people hooked on video poker, reasonable video poker, those same people might be seen visiting the casino 4 or 5 times a month, their money lasts longer, they have more fun, and make sure they use their cards. For pete's sake, half of the weekend warriors don't use a card. Free play offers, food offers, they're leaving it all on the table.
Quote: bobbartopI watch the players at my local joints. I kinda figure, in general, that decent video poker is a form of PLAYER DEVELOPMENT. The slot addicts generally come in once or twice a month, blow their wad, don't even put their card in the machine, and go back to their mundane existence. But if you get people hooked on video poker, reasonable video poker, those same people might be seen visiting the casino 4 or 5 times a month, their money lasts longer, they have more fun, and make sure they use their cards. For pete's sake, half of the weekend warriors don't use a card. Free play offers, food offers, they're leaving it all on the table.
We've all heard the saying:
Slaughter your cows, you can have hamburger, just ONCE.
Milk your cows, you get milk, forever.
BE NICE TO COWS!
Secondarily, it's a maxim amongst the machine gambling world that the top 10% of the customers provide 90% of the income for the casinos. That top 10% is either so well-heeled that they don't really care about payoffs, or so addicted that they may care but behaviorally can' t muster up any changes.
The best book I've read is anthropologist Natasha Dow Schull's "Addiction By Design." It is a great, great book -- wonderful history, summary, and fresh research all under one cover.
Quote: bobbartopForget about the positive games, man. You hear what you wanna hear. I'm saying if the morons who booze it up and play 7-5 Double Double at P.T.'s Pub would just be reasonably discerning and demand 8-5 Bonus at the minimum or not even enter said establishment, said establishment would put in 8-5 Bonus Poker or face having no business. They'd cough it up, and they'd stay in business.
There is certainly some truth in this. And I would certainly join you in this revolt if I felt it'd make a difference. We are up against less discerning folks. Even if we could get everyone to join the revolution, P.T.'s Pub could react and say "No one is playing these machines. Let's replace the VP and get some different games in here."
Quote: IndyJeffreyThere is certainly some truth in this. And I would certainly join you in this revolt if I felt it'd make a difference. We are up against less discerning folks. Even if we could get everyone to join the revolution, P.T.'s Pub could react and say "No one is playing these machines. Let's replace the VP and get some different games in here."
Thanks for your reply, I'm just talking, not calling for an uprising against P.T.'s or anything like that. lol But how are you going to change people who just want to go drinking? Logic does not play in this picture. I'm not a drinker myself, but I was wondering if playing 7-5 Double Double is not more expensive in itself than buying expensive liquor taking it home and drinking alone? People wanna go out, get plastered, talk loud with their friends, and play 7-5 DDB. It's a free country. It's stupid, but it's their money.
Didn't D Negreanu used to advertise for PT's? Funny, I don't see him advertising to always play 7-2 offsuit.
Quote: DRichI agree with you. I watch lots of people play 95%-96% video poker everyday. People will play whateveryou put in front of them. Outside of nevada video poker is pretty much disappearing and 90% video slots are going to 85%.
It's still pretty alive and well in St. Louis, especially Ultimate X. That possibly has to do with Missouri only allowing games of skill in casinos for about the first year of their existence.
When something brings us pleasure, we want more of it. That's human. The casino uses this against us. They want me to be happy when I hit a $1,000 royal flush even though it may cost me 3-4 times as much to do so. They want me to believe better games come at higher denominations so I can lose more. If I do what they want, they will honor me with a higher status of loser. This is not the fault of the casino. They are running a business.Quote: redietzFrom my perspective, the primary reason good video poker has declined precipitously is that the casinos have established a generation addicted to video poker. First, you hook people on the behavior and pay them 99.9%. Then you reduce it. Then you reduce it some more. You have people who were introduced to good video poker, and now they have 20 years of established behavior to overcome to break the addiction, so you can just reduce the pay tables incrementally. They won't revolt in any meaningful way. They are addicted. Plus you have an entirely new generation transitioning in who have never seen the heyday returns. I think it's just a matter of once they've imposed an addiction, may as well squeegee the addicted.
How you deal with negative games is a personal decision. You may decide to quit the game. You may go less often. You may play less hands or wager less money. If you play like you have an advantage when you don't, you will be doing exactly what the casino wants you to do.
The question I'd ask about SingleCoinVP's post is regarding the opening line, "When something brings us pleasure...." Why should sitting in front of a machine with a few fancy graphics and sounds give human beings pleasure? If it's the prospect of "winning money" when all logic and math says the game's a long-term loser, what does that say about obsession with (often small) capitalist gains and the craving for a more expensive dinner/show/wardrobe/car? That kind of craving has been taught by the culture. If people play as a relief from boredom or because of the alleged fun of what's considered action, what does that say about our ability to not be bored? Or our definition of fun?
Dow Schull argues that in the case of machine play, a main thrust is a retreat from normal consciousness into a "machine zone" where personal responsibility and decision making are in abeyance and where people are insulated in non-social cocoons. Almost a safe haven from the louder, more stressful bells and whistles of actual adult life.
Great comments. What is it that makes playing video poker so enjoyable? It certainly isn't the profit motive as very few of us actually make one.Quote: redietzOne of the themes of "Addiction By Design" is that there is a synergistic element to human/casino/machine interactions. There isn't simply the casino and the person. There is an interaction, and the interaction has a lot to do with the machine in front of them being the driving force (as in that old Twilight Zone episode).
The question I'd ask about SingleCoinVP's post is regarding the opening line, "When something brings us pleasure...." Why should sitting in front of a machine with a few fancy graphics and sounds give human beings pleasure? If it's the prospect of "winning money" when all logic and math says the game's a long-term loser, what does that say about obsession with (often small) capitalist gains and the craving for a more expensive dinner/show/wardrobe/car? That kind of craving has been taught by the culture. If people play as a relief from boredom or because of the alleged fun of what's considered action, what does that say about our ability to not be bored? Or our definition of fun?
Dow Schull argues that in the case of machine play, a main thrust is a retreat from normal consciousness into a "machine zone" where personal responsibility and decision making are in abeyance and where people are insulated in non-social cocoons. Almost a safe haven from the louder, more stressful bells and whistles of actual adult life.
In my case, it's more about your last paragraph. To me, video poker is an escape. Escape from what? My real life is rewarding enough. I don't have a lot of stress in my life and I am financially comfortable. Being in a "machine zone" is something I enjoy. For a few hours a week, I am in competition with the casino. They want all my money and I want to keep as much as possible. When I walk out even, I feel good. When I walk out with a profit, I feel triumphant. I get my money's worth. I am not concerned with long term profit or loss as long as it doesn't become an issue for me.
In 2017, the U.S. video game industry was worth $18.4 billion dollars. U.S. video game revenue is forecast to reach $230 billion by 2022. Young people are staying out of casinos to play these games. You can play all the video poker games you want on-line for free. $9 a month without ads. The casino industry has many challenges to overcome. Will future players come back if they offer full pay games? I doubt it.
