Unadvantage Play

Here's a question these forums never seem to address. Suppose, like 99% of the video poker players in America, you don't have access to +EV games, your comps can't make up the difference and your bankroll is limited? Simple math tells you these games are unbeatable. You hope for the best. Those of us who are in this group know this problem all too well.

You buy software that can give you the correct hand plays for any pay schedule. You practice until you are satisfied with your accuracy. You gather a bankroll equal to 4-6 royals and head to the casino. If you play a 97% game accurately, you will pay at least 3% for your entertainment. You might find better games, but they are still negative. Comps and free play will offset some of the cost. Eventually, you either quit the game or adjust your cost to fit your personal preference.

Video poker strategy for a Recreational player is not about winning or losing long term. It's about obtaining the most entertainment value for your dollar. Your choice is to stay home or pay to play. There is no math that will tell you how to lose and be happy about it. Only you can make that decision.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Here's a question these forums never seem to address. Suppose, like 99% of the video poker players in America, you don't have access to +EV games, your comps can't make up the difference and your bankroll is limited? Simple math tells you these games are unbeatable. You hope for the best. Those of us who are in this group know this problem all too well.

You buy software that can give you the correct hand plays for any pay schedule. You practice until you are satisfied with your accuracy. You gather a bankroll equal to 4-6 royals and head to the casino. If you play a 97% game accurately, you will pay at least 3% for your entertainment. You might find better games, but they are still negative. Comps and free play will offset some of the cost. Eventually, you either quit the game or adjust your cost to fit your personal preference.

Video poker strategy for a Recreational player is not about winning or losing long term. It's about obtaining the most entertainment value for your dollar. Your choice is to stay home or pay to play. There is no math that will tell you how to lose and be happy about it. Only you can make that decision.

I'm not sure why you needed an entire new Thread about this since you seem to already have one. Anyways, what's the question?

P.S. You do have access to +EV video poker, you just don't know it.

I get the point you’re making and the argument for single coin VP. I’m not going to criticize you or anyone for your VP play. Especially when you understand what you’re giving up by single coin vs max coin. That’s a considered personal choice. For me, I think the argument is missing a few considerations. First, casino gambling has to hit a certain minimum $$ at stake to be interesting. I’ve played nickel VP. Even at max coin, It got boring quickly. There was no amount I could win that would be exciting. There was no sweat. That’s an aspect of the “entertainment value” for me. Second and most importantly, VP lets you manipulate the stakes—that is, you can have the opportunity to get full pay on royals AND bet “single” coin if you look at it a certain way. For example, max coin 25 cent is pretty close to single coin $1 VP. So if $1.25 per hand is enough to keep you interested, then you might as well max bet 25 cent VP over $1 single coin. If you want the numbers to be exactly the same, then change the scenario to nickel/quarter where max coin on the first is exactly the same as single coin on the latter.

Quote: AxelWolf

You do have access to +EV video poker, you just don't know it.

I have been told this before. I once offered $100 to anyone who could show proof of a net positive video poker game in Florida. The only response was scalping Ultimate X multipliers. If you are caught doing this at our casinos, they will throw you out.

These forums are always dominated by Advantage Players or those who believe they are. That's all and good. What's here for the average player who can't find a game with an advantage? For years I have read about game odds, accuracy and bankroll. I can do the math as well as anyone. What I can't find are games like the books describe. Is there room for these discussions or do you want a forum where everyone talks about games few can find?

I play video poker all over the Southeast. That includes Florida, Mississippi and Cherokee. Show us a verifiable long term +EV video poker game I can play at those casinos and I will send you a check.

So the assumption is there are 5 hookers and you're taking the one which just has syphilis but she's ugly and has a stench. I'd take Pam Anderson and hep C, more fun.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

So the assumption is there are 5 hookers and you're taking the one which just has syphilis but she's ugly and has a stench. I'd take Pam Anderson and hep C, more fun.

Are you equating playing video poker in a casino to paying for sex? Actually, I do see the correlation. :>)

What I would like to see is a video poker expert discuss this issue in detail. What I have heard is "Don't play negative games." Does anyone think this prevents players from doing so? I have no problem with paying to play. I don't want to pay more than I have to. Someone should talk about this.

I assume these forums are here to help players. If all we talk about are advantage games and winning, who is helped? Negative games are the biggest challenge in video poker today. Coming soon to a casino near you.

I don't play video poker, but I am definitely an "unadvantage player."

I play -EV games "responsibly" in order to maximize my fun while minimizing my losses. I just assume that whenever I walk into a casino I am going to come out a loser. Like you said, it's paying for entertainment.

Quote: TigerWu

I don't play video poker, but I am definitely an "unadvantage player."

I play -EV games "responsibly" in order to maximize my fun while minimizing my losses. I just assume that whenever I walk into a casino I am going to come out a loser. Like you said, it's paying for entertainment.

I believe most of us are. The casino lets me win once in a while so I will come back. I believe advantage play exists as do advantage players. I also believe the experts would help more people if they didn't assume everyone considers themselves inferior if they aren't.

I have been experimenting lately with slot play. I'm sure the odds are worse. The play is slower and the comps are better. I have to admit some are entertaining.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I assume these forums are here to help players. If all we talk about are advantage games and winning, who is helped? Negative games are the biggest challenge in video poker today. Coming soon to a casino near you.

Actually, I observe that there are very few posts about the specifics of advantage play. Most of game discussion here is about -EV games and trimming the House Edge as much as possible with expert play. For example, the current thread on Single Deck BJ Simulation talks about trimming the House edge from 0.35% to 0.29%.

I have only been on this forum for a few weeks, so I don't have an opinion. There definitely is an advantage play bias on some forums. I see nothing wrong with teaching advantage play as long as you state openly that few can achieve it. 100% computer perfect play is assumed to be easy. This is far from the case. There is also an issue with finding +EV games. I suspect a real AP would never divulge a profitable opportunity on a public forum. These opportunities are rare and you certainly wouldn't want to create more competition.

I believe this forum is better than most. I have been impressed with the tone and quality of the answers. No one is selling anything, promoting something or pushing an agenda. I go to the casino to have fun. I like talking about the games I play and what happens when I do. I like to read comments from regular players like me, not just experts.

The premises are these:
- only APs know things. Whether on Las Vegas or the lottery, or the math, or the casino business, they know everything better than even the professionals or the mathematicians.
- if you are not an AP, expect to be hassled and bullied and sometimes insulted.
- if you are an AP but happen to say something interesting that comes against their irrational beliefs, they’ll claim loud that you are not an AP and consequently points 1 and 2.
- APs don’t share the secrets of the trade. So the most active threads speak of road accidents and what they eat and who has a bigger d*** than whom.
- naturally, no one explaining what they do, it is impossible to confirm that they play a positive game, you have to believe that they do without them giving any proof.
- if you want to learn APlaying and ask questions, of course they’ll scorn you and say pros don’t share their info.
- if you expose a reasoning that might lead to positive playing, they’ll break hell loose on you because you are a traitor.

I must have omitted a few. Feel free to complete.

(This is an op-ed piece. Of course not ALL advantage players are like that. ‘They’ means examples of behavior that I witnessed or endured on this forum. Not all APs are equal, the worse may be few but they shout louder.
If you’re offended, just think that you are in the good subgroup.)

Quote: TinMan

For example, max coin 25 cent is pretty close to single coin $1 VP. So if $1.25 per hand is enough to keep you interested, then you might as well max bet 25 cent VP over $1 single coin. If you want the numbers to be exactly the same, then change the scenario to nickel/quarter where max coin on the first is exactly the same as single coin on the latter.

As long as you know the rules and the math involved, its fine even if you are playing for match sticks. You have the music, booze, etc. and the chance of more matchsticks. Sure "big bucks" are better than matchsticks, but whatever your tastes and wallet will allow is fine.

I have nothing against APs. I don't know any personally. I know a few people who have the intellect and the stamina to be one. To me, a casino is just like any other leisure time activity. If you are a better fisherman than I am, I'm happy for you. If you want to fish for a living, you better have more than a good story.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I have nothing against APs. I don't know any personally. I know a few people who have the intellect and the stamina to be one. To me, a casino is just like any other leisure time activity. If you are a better fisherman than I am, I'm happy for you. If you want to fish for a living, you better have more than a good story.

This is trolling here imo. Nobody would in their right mind ever tell you anything so drop it. Go bet your quarter or your dollar or yout nickel and talk to your neighbors about something nobody cares about but you.

Does Florida not have video poker progressives? If they do, there will be +EV games occasionally. The key is not to play until you find +EV.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

This is trolling here imo. Nobody would in their right mind ever tell you anything so drop it. Go bet your quarter or your dollar or yout nickel and talk to your neighbors about something nobody cares about but you.

Why so mean?

Quote: DRich

Does Florida not have video poker progressives? If they do, there will be +EV games occasionally. The key is not to play until you find +EV.

Yes, we have progressives. The casino drops the odds on those games. There are NO long term +EV video poker games in Florida. My $100 offer still stands. I'll send cash if that works for you.

I haven't seen one in Mississippi for over 10 years. If you get a W2-G in Mississippi, they take out 3% State tax before you get your money. How much do they tax you in the North East?

The truth is over the last ten years there has been a consistent downgrading of video poker odds all across the country. A few positive opportunities remain for now. Some are at high denominations for those who are comfortable with the risks. Some are in quarters, like the full pay deuces wild games at Red Rock. Comps have fallen as well. At our casinos, video poker is not eligible for multi point bonus days. Drawings still exist. Playing single coin, I won $500 free play in a drawing recently. I used it to play single coin $5 deuces wild and turned it into $800.

If all the players who claim not to play negative video poker games actually didn't, the casino would be empty.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

This is trolling here imo. Nobody would in their right mind ever tell you anything so drop it. Go bet your quarter or your dollar or yout nickel and talk to your neighbors about something nobody cares about but you.

What's with the aggro?

Ease down, Ripley...

Quote: onenickelmiracle

This is trolling here imo. Nobody would in their right mind ever tell you anything so drop it. Go bet your quarter or your dollar or yout nickel and talk to your neighbors about something nobody cares about but you.

Definitely not trolling. More a response to kubi's snarky contribution a couple posts above. I think you're reading something into SVP he isn't saying. If you want to push back against anybody, you picked the wrong post.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Definitely not trolling. More a response to kubi's snarky contribution a couple posts above. I think you're reading something into SVP he isn't saying. If you want to push back against anybody, you picked the wrong post.

I believe its more of the pattern Phils posts are taking. Those of us unfortunate enough to have witnessed how he single handily drove people like Bob Dancer and others off another forum before being banned from it might not want to witness a repeat of it here. I've stayed on the sidelines but this is deja vu all over again.
Oh, I apologize. Phil is merely suspended for six months, not banned.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Definitely not trolling. More a response to kubi's snarky contribution a couple posts above. I think you're reading something into SVP he isn't saying. If you want to push back against anybody, you picked the wrong post.

😄😁
Snarky but witty (and often true, don’t you admit?)
😉
- -
Still angry? Retaliating against Brusseleir words? I had to look up ‘Snarky’ in 5 different dictionaries: Wordsworth, Robert&Collins, Harrap’s, Larousse, Webster, before finally finding it in Robert Senior.
Must be my dry writing style. When reading me, try to imagine me laughing or smiling. Even when I despise someone I dispatch them with a grin.
- -
SingleCoinPence is like my father (88): rambling on and on about a single subject, maybe forgetting what he wrote previously. Alzheimer’s?
Let us just respect old age and pray we don’t end up like that.

Quote: kubikulann

SingleCoinPence is like my father (88): rambling on and on about a single subject, maybe forgetting what he wrote previously. Alzheimer’s?
Let us just respect old age and pray we don’t end up like that.

Agree. This thread adds zero to the forum above what his previous thread addressed. SCVP. What is different in your multi paragraph diatribe from your initial thread?

250k hands a year seems a bit more than "entertainment" to me.


There's lots of nonAP''s here who don't catch heat for talking about there non AP play. However, when they ask a question about +EV or lowereing the HA they are actually seeking an answer and will follow solid advice.

He plays 1 coin for entertainment purposes becuase playing 1 coin vs 5 coins loses less. He claims to have broken even after a significant amount of hands or something crazy like that.

I have seen the way he defends and justifies the way he plays, therfore, there's almost zero chance the OP will ever follow any advice that doesn't involve playing 1 coin on his favorite VP machine's.

What else is there to know? Perhaps we need yet another thread.

It seems like the OP has already done his research and knows what's up, He knew he would get some criticism. He knows there's nothing where he can just plop down and play whenever he wants and gain an advantage.

How is that not trolling?

Quote: AxelWolf

250k hands a year seems a bit more than "entertainment" to me.


There's lots of nonAP''s here who don't catch heat for talking about there non AP play. However, when they ask a question about +EV or lowereing the HA they are actually seeking an answer and will follow solid advice.

He plays 1 coin for entertainment purposes becuase playing 1 coin vs 5 coins loses less. He claims to have broken even after a significant amount of hands or something crazy like that.

I have seen the way he defends and justifies the way he plays, therfore, there's almost zero chance the OP will ever follow any advice that doesn't involve playing 1 coin on his favorite VP machine's.

What else is there to know? Perhaps we need yet another thread.

It seems like the OP has already done his research and knows what's up, He knew he would get some criticism. He knows there's nothing where he can just plop down and play whenever he wants and gain an advantage.

How is that not trolling?

To me trolling is trying to get on people's nerves just for the sake of it.

Like if EVERY TIME a particular someone posts valuable AP play and your only response has something to do with him riding the bus.

Quote: darkoz

To me trolling is trying to get on people's nerves just for the sake of it.

Like if EVERY TIME a particular someone posts valuable AP play and your only response has something to do with him riding the bus.

Maybe you shouldn’t post things you (hopefully by now) know you shouldn’t be posting. 🤷‍♂️

Quote: RS

Maybe you shouldn’t post things you (hopefully by now) know you shouldn’t be posting. 🤷‍♂️

A very big AP play:

The Greyhound bus has freeplay offers when u arrive at Atlantic City casinos.

Damn, spilled the beans. Dont be mad at me on that one

Quote: darkoz

To me trolling is trying to get on people's nerves just for the sake of it.

Like if EVERY TIME a particular someone posts valuable AP play and your only response has something to do with him riding the bus.

I think there's a big difference between some obvious ballbusting vs some masked intentional trolling.

That sucks for the people who try to come along and help when dealing with the situation where the person is never truly seeking any legitimate advice. He knows damn well his comments are going to egg people on(especially Advantage players) knowing all along other people are going to cry foul for him.

I'm not sure what the exact deal was, but if I remember right, we were warned about this guy from the get-go. This ruse seems to be his MO across multiple forums. The second thread he started that was basically about the same thing cemented that as being the case for me.


-----------------------------------------------------
For Whom the bus trolls; The bus trolls for three.

I don't post on these forums to convince others to play like I do, build up my ego, contradict experts or make personal attacks. The video poker experience that some people describe on these forums is not the experience I have when I go to a casino. I don't know anyone who makes money playing video poker. That doesn't mean no one can.

I play a lot of video poker. I post on these forums to share my experiences with other recreational players. I like reading what happens to other players like me. I don't pretend to be an expert on video poker. I don't get paid by playing +EV games computer perfectly. If I get paid, it's because I got lucky. I get lucky on occasion. When I tell people about it, it makes some people angry. Why, I don't know.

My issue with Bob Dancer goes back many years. I have every book he has ever published. I respect him as a businessman. Anyone who can get both players and casinos to pay him is a genius. I have no problem with his teachings or his strategies. He taught me how to find the best games and the value of comps. Without this knowledge, I would be giving up things I value.

Where we disagree is his veiled promotion of video poker as a career choice. Bob Dancer wrote an article stating he would be happy if his daughter married a professional video poker player. As a father, grandfather and great grandfather, this sickened me and I told him so. I imagined my daughter sitting alone at night while her husband played video poker in a dark smoky casino. I thought about the divorce that would be inevitable and the ramifications to my grandchildren. Any loving father would feel the same. I asked Bob Dancer to issue an apology for this article. He responded by having me banned from videopoker.com. I do not intend to return to that forum until he does.

If he thinks I am a bad person for expressing my feelings on this matter, I am sorry. I am not a bad person. I have been married to the same girl I met 57 years ago when she was 15 years old. I do not apply my moral standards to others or judge them. Some things are out of bounds. This was one of them.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I don't post on these forums to convince others to play like I do, build up my ego, contradict experts or make personal attacks. The video poker experience that some people describe on these forums is not the experience I have when I go to a casino. I don't know anyone who makes money playing video poker. That doesn't mean no one can.

I post on these forum to share my experiences with other recreational players. I like reading what happens to other players like me. I don't pretend to be an expert on video poker. I don't get paid by playing +EV games computer perfectly. If I get paid, it's because I got lucky. I get lucky on occasion. When I tell people about it, it makes some players angry. Why I don't know.

My issue with Bob Dancer goes back many years. I have every book he has ever published. I respect him as a businessman. Anyone who can get both players and casinos to pay him is a genius. I have no problem with his teachings or his strategies. He taught me how to find the best games and the value of comps. Without this knowledge, I would be giving up things I value.

Where we disagree is his veiled promotion of video poker as a career choice. Bob Dancer wrote an article stating he would be happy if his daughter married a professional video poker player. As a father, grandfather and great grandfather, this sickened me and I told him so. I imagined my daughter sitting alone at night while her husband played video poker in a dark smoky casino. I thought about the divorce that would be inevitable and the ramifications to my grandchildren. Any loving father would feel the same. I asked Bob Dancer to issue an apology for this article. He responded by having me banned from videopoker.com. I do not intend to return to that forum until he does.

If he thinks I am a bad person for expressing my feelings on this matter, I am sorry. I'm not a bad person. I have been married to the same girl I met 57 years ago when she was 15 years old. I do not apply my moral standards to others or judge them. Some things are out of bounds. This was one of them.

There have been plenty of millionaire divorces where the parents stood in each others presence till they couldn't take it anymore.

Likewise I know of at least a few longterm marriages where the couple barely could afford ends meet and were still madly in love even though the husband was off making money all the time at his job

If a woman divorces because her husband supports the family playing video poker I doubt there was any true love there.

You should be rallying against women who marry military men. I just had a sendoff party for a friend whose husband just left on active duty. Guess she is headed to divorce for lack of seeing her husband

Divorce is not exclusive to professional gamblers. Over half of today's marriages end in divorce. All I know about professional video poker is what Bob Dancer writes. What he has said about it is not that appealing. It's a hard life even in the best of times. The financial stress has to be enormous. He writes about this in his books. How would you like to come home and tell your wife you just lost $50,000 of their money in a slot machine, but you know a royal is coming? What marriage would survive that kind of pressure?

The fact that he might make money over the long term does not make this any better. He can say anything he wants about video poker. There are people who look up to him. He is a hero to some. He should act like a hero and admit he was wrong in that article.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Divorce is not exclusive to professional gamblers. Over half of today's marriages end in divorce. All I know about professional video poker is what Bob Dancer writes. What he has said about it is not that appealing. It's a hard life even in the best of times. The financial stress has to be enormous. He writes about this in his books. How would you like to come home and tell your wife you just lost $50,000 of their money in a slot machine, but you know a royal is coming? What marriage would survive that kind of pressure?

The fact that he might make money over the long term does not make this any better. He can say anything he wants about video poker. There are people who look up to him. He is a hero to some. He should act like a hero and admit he was wrong in that article.

As an AP I have had similar conversations with significant others.

There were some who didnt understand this is how I make a living. Those women are not a part of my life anymore

The ones who were supportive of my career are still involved with me. Even if we dont date currently.

Prior to AP I worked in the entertainment field. Invested in several projects which either didnt get off the ground or flopped.

I suppose you will point to the high divorce rate amongst celebrities but that is just one field where people can lose their shirt.

Any decent woman will stand by her man. If not, divorce is probably the best thing anyway. She just was there for your money

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm not sure what the exact deal was, but if I remember right, we were warned about this guy from the get-go.

If you have time, look back at his post history on the other site. You will not be disappointed.

A few years back, he was a mini Rob Singer. He had a web site promoting his "Cheap Video Poker" strategy, and regularly bragged on the forum with jackpot photos. In July 2015 on the forum, he criticized Bob Dancer for leading "players to believe the only way to win long term playing video poker is to use professional strategy."

He continued: "You can beat a negative expectation video poker machine long term, but you must rethink the entire process. When using professional strategy on a 100% video poker game, winning relies on hitting your share of Royal Flushes. If they don't show up on time, you lose no matter how you play."

"The Cheap Strategy does not rely on Royal Flushes to win long term. It works because your losses between wins are reduced by 75% and the chance that a $1,000 quad deuce will happen after you switched to a higher denomination is greater than waiting for a Royal Flush using traditional strategy."

More recently, he seems to have focused on his hatred of APs. July 2019:

"In my opinion, professional video poker is a perversion of the game."

Quote: kubikulann

SingleCoinPence is like my father (88): rambling on and on about a single subject, maybe forgetting what he wrote previously. Alzheimer’s?
Let us just respect old age and pray we don’t end up like that.

Personal insult. Per the Martingale policy, this one shall be two weeks.

I did not bring up the subject of Bob Dancer on this forum. It was alleged that I ran him off and was banned. This is not true. My only significant issue with Bob Dancer was the article I referred to above.

I have been playing video poker for about 20 years. Since that time, I have played about 250,000 hands a year. I made a lot of mistakes over that period of time. One of my biggest mistakes was playing like I had an advantage when I didn't. I sat in a casino and fed money into negative games and did exactly what the casino wanted me to. Bob Dancer taught me a lesson. He told me not to play bad games. He also taught me to take advantage of the free things the casino offered me. What he didn't teach me was how to play negative video poker games for fun.

Math told me how much these games were costing me to play. When I reduced my coin-in, my cost went down. Unfortunately, playing cheap removes the possibility of benefiting from a royal flush. To make the game more exciting, I tested a bet incrementing strategy over a two year period. I posted photos of my larger wins on the Internet for everyone to see. At the end of the two year period I had posted about $17,000 in jackpots and was slightly ahead. Those are the facts.

I never claimed my results were due to anything but luck. Some people ignored this fact and assumed I was claiming to have a long term winning strategy. This is not true.

I have no problem with Advantage play strategy math. I believe few people can benefit from it in today's casino environment. I personally believe anyone attempting to duplicate Bob Dancer's results in 2019 is courting disaster. If you have a different opinion, I can respect that.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I don't know anyone who makes money playing video poker.

Well, perhaps you should learn more exactly what it's like and how it is before you start making judgments.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

The video poker experience that some people describe on these forums is not the experience I have when I go to a casino.

That's probably due to the fact that you're playing with such a big house advantage all while playing one coin at a time. Personally, that sounds like torture to me.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I imagined my daughter sitting alone at night while her husband played video poker in a dark smoky casino.

And yet you do it for entertainment in the tune of 250K hands a year. How funny is that?

I find it hard to believe that you read all of Bob dancers books and somehow imagine it's just people sitting in some dark smokey Casino. Either you haven't been paying attention or you are purposely painting a picture of the worst possible situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's always encouraged his love interests into coming with him and participating as much as possible? It seems like an optimal situation when you can have your wife or husband come and play whenever they wish too or not. Assuming they're both skilled enough they could even take turns bringing in the bacon and working together. My wife is smart enough and knows what she's doing for the most part when I come stay Advantage Play. She comes and helps whenever she feels like it, especially if it's something interesting or she knows it's a really easy money lucrative situation. She actually put in a decent amount time in on her own and did quite well up until about the last six or seven years.

Yes, what a horrible life going to very fancy dinners as much as you want, seeing great shows all the time, going on cruises whenever possible, going to all kinds of neat special events such as fancy New Year's Eve parties, getting some nice gifts, staying in super nice hotel suites, going dancing all the time, having the freedom to take off whatever time you want whenever you want, and stuff I can't even think of, all while making a decent living.

You keep mentioning having to play computer perfect video poker. Having to do that to make money playing video poker is absolutely a big f****** myth. There's only a few guys even come close to playing computer perfect and that's only on some select games. That doesn't mean you can play like a complete idiot. As long as your advantage exceeds the mistakes you make on average, and you keep at it long enough... you will make money.

Speaking of Bob Dancer and kind of related to this conversation. Here's a little story, I don't know if I ever mentioned it before.

I just happened to be sitting next to a couple nice middle aged well kept decent-looking ladies playing video poker. They were having a few drinks and seemed to be having fun. I noticed they weren't your average video poker players considering the speed they were playing, the limits they were playing, the game and accuracy that they were playing. I was fairly certain they weren't professionals either. I think at some point they realized I wasn't just some poppy either. I believe I had a hand pay that induce some conversation from them.

They had mentioned that they were there on a free ride vacation while keeping up there tier status and picking up free play for continued offers. They even knew what time the gaming day ended and some other interesting things the average player wouldn't know. It turns out their interests in video poker was due to Bob Dancer. They indicated it was working out very well for them as some plus EV entertainment over the last few years. At some point during the conversation they couldn't stop swooning over Bob Dancer and mention how they were in love with him. They're really like the whole dancing thing as well. They seem to know a lot more about his personal life than they should have.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I asked Bob Dancer to issue an apology for this article. ... I do not intend to return to that forum until he does.

While this might initially be seen as good news for the other forum, one would have to examine the poster's past indecisiveness and lack of keeping his word on that other forum. Dancer will not be apologizing, but Phil will be posting 6 months and 1 day after the banning date. It would not surprise me if his calendar was marked and the posts were prepared. After all, it is not rocket science to use a "copy and paste" facility.

The $100 offer to anyone finding an advantage play in Florida video poker was reneged upon. After the offer, Phil disqualified Ultimate X vulturing as well as progressive plays as not meeting his later imposed requirements.

To those who would compare this poster to Singer, although I do see some similarities, I would submit that Singer was actually aware he was trolling.

Serious video poker players efficiently seeking information would do well do allocate their time to do something other than reading SVP posts on this forum.

Some good comments. For those of you that do not know, I often play video poker with my wife. We take frequent video poker vacations where we travel around the country playing VP. Neither of us expects to make a long term profit. We get comped rooms during the week at the Ameristar in Black Hawk, the Florida Hard Rocks, Red Rock in Vegas and most MLife and Caesars casinos. Last year, we stayed free at the Borgata in AC. We left after we discovered a problem with the machines.

I don't always play single coin depending on the odds. Playing small on a seriously negative video poker game is smart. There are only three ways to reduce your losses on these machines, stay home, play less or play slower. You can check with Mr. Dancer if you need verification. I do not think everyone should play single coin VP. Players are so programmed to accept the royal flush as the ultimate video poker hand that they lose sight of what they pay to see them. If you really want to know, ask the casino for a printout at the end of the year. I suggest sitting down before you read it.

I fail to see how making tier status if worth the effort if the "free stuff" costs more to earn than it is worth. I hear this all the time. Comped rooms are the easiest comp to get. We get all we want while limiting our losses. My wife plays max coin quarter deuces wild all the time. I switch games, denominations and credits. Her cost to play is less than mine. Neither of us has access to +EV games. Neither of us makes a profit. Despite this, we both have a good time.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I fail to see how making tier status if worth the effort if the "free stuff" costs more to earn than it is worth.

I fail to see how playing 250,000 1 coin - EV hands per year is worth it. I guess what you fail to understand is that someone can profit from just the free play earned alone by maintaining their tier status. That doesn't include all the other perks involved.

It just makes no sense, you say it's not worth the effort yet you're sitting there doing it anyways without any good benefits. This what makes me thinks you're trolling.

Obviously, since I don't know the the ladies I don't know what kind of free play offers they get. I can't say if it was worth the effort or not. Apparently, they seem to think so. Just like you think it's worth the effort playing the way you do. Given the information I had, knowing the game and location they were playing I would be willing to bet they had an advantage based on free play alone. That certainly beats playing - EV 1 coin video poker.

Can you not afford to leave Florida or are you somehow stuck there?

Quote: Wizard

Personal insult. Per the Martingale policy, this one shall be two weeks.

Is the Martingale an effective system for suspensions?

We have lived in Florida all our lives. We are both 72 retired and financially secure. I play video poker at either the Tampa or the Hollywood Hard Rock casinos one day each week. I know the games they offer are seriously negative. I play video poker for entertainment. I don't need big jackpots and big comps to be entertained. My goal each week is to play and come home with at least the amount I left with. I set low cash out limits. When I meet my daily goal in white tickets, I leave the casino. My free play is about $20 a week. I eat free in the coffee shop. I have won one $500 drawing in ten years of play. I can stay free at either casino during the week. They do not charge me any taxes or fees. I walk out paying nothing for my room.

When we travel it's a vacation. When we play in Vegas and Reno, we always play max coins. If I find myself at a casino with 97% games, I play as small as possible. My wife plays single line quarter deuces wild with five coins a hand. She never gets a W2-G.

I average a couple of W2-Gs each year. I vary my bet and the games I play. I don't sit on a losing machine and pump money into it. If you add back all the free rooms we use for vacations, free play, free drinks and food, we think playing video poker is a bargain. We could fly to Vegas and play better games. After we add in the cost of the flights, parking, dog sitting and car rental, we wouldn't gain a thing.

Not everyone plays video poker for the same reason. We all have different goals. All we want out of video poker is cheap entertainment that we can enjoy together. Video poker provides that and more. We have been to practically every casino in this country. On the way we visit national parks, see the sights, stop by old friends and have a great time. Would we have a better time if we only played +EV games? I guess we'll never know.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

We have lived in Florida all our lives. We are both 72 retired and financially secure. I play video poker at either the Tampa or the Hollywood Hard Rock casinos one day each week. I know the games they offer are seriously negative. I play video poker for entertainment. I don't need big jackpots and big comps to be entertained. My goal each week is to play and come home with at least the amount I left with. I set low cash out limits. When I meet my daily goal in white tickets, I leave the casino. My free play is about $20 a week. I eat free in the coffee shop. I have won one $500 drawing in ten years of play. I can stay free at either casino during the week. They do not charge me any taxes or fees. I walk out paying nothing for my room.

When we travel it's a vacation. When we play in Vegas and Reno, we always play max coins. If I find myself at a casino with 97% games, I play as small as possible. My wife plays single line quarter deuces wild with five coins a hand. She never gets a W2-G.

I average a couple of W2-Gs each year. I vary my bet and the games I play. I don't sit on a losing machine and pump money into it. If you add back all the free rooms we use for vacations, free play, free drinks and food, we think playing video poker is a bargain. We could fly to Vegas and play better games. After we add in the cost of the flights, parking, dog sitting and car rental, we wouldn't gain a thing.

Not everyone plays video poker for the same reason. We all have different goals. All we want out of video poker is cheap entertainment that we can enjoy together. Video poker provides that and more. We have been to practically every casino in this country. On the way we visit national parks, see the sights, stop by old friends and have a great time. Would we have a better time if we only played +EV games? I guess we'll never know.

Axel, he gets $20 freeplay while doing 250,000 hands per year

Unless you want to start explaining secrets of AP, just where are you gonna go with this one?

So much written here with hardly anything said. Because everyone loves to hear themselves, I'll add to some things that seem clearly wrong

Quote: SingleCoinVP

There is no math that will tell you how to lose and be happy about it.

This is not true. When the benefits from video poker are greater than the benefits we can by spending those resources on anything else, playing those VP machines is a good bet. Lets use a hypotheical example of someone who spends 500 hours per year in the casino and loses $10,000 every year to the house edge (hypothetically that would 250,000 hands at $1 per spin on a 97% game). When the benefit that player gets from that 500 hours and $7,500 by sitting at a video poker machine in a casino is greater than using that time and money on anything else in the world, the math formula says it is good a good play. Now if there are other things in the world that the player could spend that time and money on that would give him a greater benefit than sitting in front of the poker machine, the math says it is a bad play.

For myself, virtually the only benefit to playing these games is the money (and the meals), so I only play games where I truly believe the payout will exceed the odds, and after 250,000 I am nearly certain to have benefited by winning money. Which brings up the next issue:

Quote: SingleCoinVP

What's here for the average player who can't find a game with an advantage?

In the area of the country I know, video poker games where a player can get a clear and consistent advantage (either +100% pay table, or over +100% after slotclub points) are very easy to find. These are casinos in most parts of Nevada. Which means all this state, plus a lot of California, Arizona, Utah and some other states can get to these on a day trip. I know that there are some people who live in a place without easy access to these games, but there are perhaps hundreds of millions of people who do.

To answer your question, about what's available for the average player who can't find these games: you can always play on your computer or phone without losing one penny to the house edge. That has always seemed like a good idea to me for people who love playing these games, but want better odds than what the casinos usually offer. That fits in perfectly with some of your other comments:

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I don't want to pay more than I have to. Someone should talk about this.

I am in the same boat as you. So long as games with a negative house edge exist, I'll play those. And so long as other games with zero house edge exist, you can play those. I'll plug the Wizard family: https://wizardofodds.com/play/video-poker/deuces-wild/

Quote: SingleCoinVP

There is also an issue with finding +EV games. I suspect a real AP would never divulge a profitable opportunity on a public forum. These opportunities are rare and you certainly wouldn't want to create more competition.

Not true. In this part of the country, games with paytables of +99% (including +100% games) are easy to find (by either looking or asking online, or just by looking around a casino yourself). Promotions that give the player back a guaranteed 0.5 - 1% of total action are also easy to find -- again, just look around online or in person, or ask. Put them together and it's an easy to find, openly discussed, profitable opportunity. If anyone wants something even specific on this I am more than happy to share, but I think I pretty much just gave everything away anyways.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Where we disagree is his veiled promotion of video poker as a career choice. Bob Dancer wrote an article stating he would be happy if his daughter married a professional video poker player. As a father, grandfather and great grandfather, this sickened me and I told him so. I imagined my daughter sitting alone at night while her husband played video poker in a dark smoky casino. I thought about the divorce that would be inevitable and the ramifications to my grandchildren. Any loving father would feel the same.

Most any father I could imagine would find it far more sickening to see his son-in-law losing money while spending thousands of hours in a casino when compared to earning a professional-level income doing the same exact thing.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

How would you like to come home and tell your wife you just lost $50,000 of their money in a slot machine, but you know a royal is coming? What marriage would survive that kind of pressure?

I would love to be in a position where if a bet required $50,000, I could put that much up knowing it was the correct play even accounting for the risk involved. Being in that position would mean a lot less stress (and financial stress) than I currently have.

Quote: drrock

The $100 offer to anyone finding an advantage play in Florida video poker was reneged upon. After the offer, Phil disqualified Ultimate X vulturing as well as progressive plays as not meeting his later imposed requirements.

I think even Kentry / Nathan found a play in Florida that would qualify, something about offering $5 in free play after $5 in action every week. It was even listed on the casino website, so not merely an offer based on previous play. Perhaps slots only or something like that. But if there is advantage slot play that easy to find, there must be advantage VP as well.

Quote: AxelWolf

I fail to see how playing 250,000 1 coin - EV hands per year is worth it. I guess what you fail to understand is that someone can profit from just the free play earned alone by maintaining their tier status. That doesn't include all the other perks involved.

It just makes no sense, you say it's not worth the effort yet you're sitting there doing it anyways without any good benefits. This what makes me thinks you're trolling.

Obviously, since I don't know the the ladies I don't know what kind of free play offers they get. I can't say if it was worth the effort or not. Apparently, they seem to think so. Just like you think it's worth the effort playing the way you do. Given the information I had, knowing the game and location they were playing I would be willing to bet they had an advantage based on free play alone. That certainly beats playing - EV 1 coin video poker.

Can you not afford to leave Florida or are you somehow stuck there?

250,000 x 0.25 x 0.03 = $1,875. Wow. Someone is wasting less than $2k per year on an activity he derives a lot of enjoyment from. Who cares?

There was a documentary. Some of you may remember. A dr lost millions over the years gambling. When asked about it, she said she enjoyed it. The staff said that we want gamblers to play within their budget. If they go to far. The casino discourages that.

Quote: unJon

250,000 x 0.25 x 0.03 = $1,875. Wow. Someone is wasting less than $2k per year on an activity he derives a lot of enjoyment from. Who cares?

Obviously he does or he would have started two threads about this.

Did you read both threads?

Do you know any of his history?

If not, please do.

You really have to read between the lines to see what the guy is up to.

It's really no longer about him(I already pointed out he would never change what he's doing, he absolutely no interested in doing so) there might be others interested in avoiding his style of play so perhaps they will get something out of this thread.

Quote: TomG

To answer your question, about what's available for the average player who can't find these games: you can always play on your computer or phone without losing one penny to the house edge.

better yet, one could actually make a living doing so online if done correctly.

TomG, I appreciate your detailed response to my comments. It's obvious we live in two different worlds. I am not interested in holding my powder waiting for a +EV opportunity. That is not what I want out of video poker. To me and my wife, video poker is a nice day in a nice place. The result is less important. Most of our friends play slots. We play video poker because we enjoy the interaction with the game and we can play longer with less money.

To us, the game of video poker is not scalping Ultimate X multipliers. It's not running from casino to casino when a progressive grows large enough or playing to win a chance in a drawing. All we want is to play as long as possible and come home happy as many days as possible.

These forums are normally dominated by people who like to discuss complicated math. It's nice to know the frequency of royals or how much a .04% play is worth. Math has no bearing on what happens when I go to the casino this morning. I know there will be along term cost and I'm OK with the amount I choose it to be.

Most video poker forums ignore the millions of players like me and my friends. Worse yet, some denigrate us. There is no reason an Advantage Player should feel superior to a single coin quarter player. You choose to make your play decisions based on profit, we don't. Should I be envious of you because you choose to make your living in a casino? We all have a common bond in the game. This should be the basis of our discussions.

I'm heading to the casino this morning. What am I expecting? Today I'm playing Bonus Poker. I would like to hit a royal. I know I probably won't. I'll eat lunch with my friends. They will tell me about their wins. I will tell them about mine. We will enjoy the experience. Some of us will win money, most of us won't. That is the world I live in.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

TomG, I appreciate your detailed response to my comments. It's obvious we live in two different worlds. I am not interested in holding my powder waiting for a +EV opportunity. That is not what I want out of video poker. To me and my wife, video poker is a nice day in a nice place. The result is less important. Most of our friends play slots. We play video poker because we enjoy the interaction with the game and we can play longer with less money.

To us, the game of video poker is not scalping Ultimate X multipliers. It's not running from casino to casino when a progressive grows large enough or playing to win a chance in a drawing. All we want is to play as long as possible and come home happy as many days as possible.

These forums are normally dominated by people who like to discuss complicated math. It's nice to know the frequency of royals or how much a .04% play is worth. Math has no bearing on what happens when I go to the casino this morning. I know there will be along term cost and I'm OK with the amount I choose it to be.

Most video poker forums ignore the millions of players like me and my friends. Worse yet, some denigrate us. There is no reason an Advantage Player should feel superior to a single coin quarter player. You choose to make your play decisions based on profit, we don't. Should I be envious of you because you choose to make your living in a casino? We all have a common bond in the game. This should be the basis of our discussions.

I'm heading to the casino this morning. What am I expecting? Today I'm playing Bonus Poker. I would like to hit a royal. I know I probably won't. I'll eat lunch with my friends. They will tell me about their wins. I will tell them about mine. We will enjoy the experience. Some of us will win money, most of us won't. That is the world I live in.

Personally I love your attitude

Without players like you casinos and by extension AP would be out of business

Keep feeding in the money and having a good time. Place your initials on the benjamins before you insert them so I can identify them when I have cashed out

You should get a GoPro and livestream your sessions on twitch.

Quote: Gandler

Is the Martingale an effective system for suspensions?

Only if you have unlimited bankroll insults.