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darkoz
darkoz
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September 3rd, 2019 at 4:33:41 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

Same with me. I must be doing something wrong.

I get $500 Freeplay. I play double double bonus using the strategy posted on this site. Yet I typically walk away with only around $375.



Which is why I would be willing to purchase freeplay for 50% with an expectation of making back 67% face value.

Again, as Heatmap said, on this side of the states freeplay means slotplay for the most part. Not VP or VBJ
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Lovecomps
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September 3rd, 2019 at 4:34:07 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I have no problem with you buying freeplay

But saving fifty cents per $100 in freeplay seems ridiculous to me




The transaction cost to get it, even just postage, would negate the savings. The gasoline that I use to get to the casino would eat it up too.

I'll just sit back and wait for my own offers to arrive.
The best things in life are not free.
Lovecomps
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September 3rd, 2019 at 4:35:06 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I have no problem with you buying freeplay

But saving fifty cents per $100 in freeplay seems ridiculous to me




The transaction cost to get it, even just postage, would negate the savings. The gasoline that I would use to get to the casino would eat it up too.

I'll just sit back and wait for my own offers to arrive.
The best things in life are not free.
billryan
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September 3rd, 2019 at 5:00:24 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I have no problem with you buying freeplay

But saving fifty cents per $100 in freeplay seems ridiculous to me



Suppose the right circumstances let you do it indefinitely.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
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September 3rd, 2019 at 5:26:17 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Suppose the right circumstances let you do it indefinitely.



Fifty cents per $100 just doesn't do it for me even indefinitely.

Too small!

Now if it was free cash yeah I would do it indefinitely.
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RS
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September 3rd, 2019 at 5:37:40 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I have no problem with you buying freeplay

But saving fifty cents per $100 in freeplay seems ridiculous to me


Again, you're misreading what's being said. No one's saying that you should go pay 99.5% for FP. Obviously that's not going to be something you should seek out to go make money on that. But if it helps someone else because they sell it at a good price and I'm going to be playing anyway, then yeah I'll buy it at 99.5%. But if someone on this forum wanted to sell FP to some casino I have no intention of playing at, then I'm obviously not going to buy it at 99.5% and neither would Axel.

It obviously depends how much FP there is, the higher the amount the closer to 100% I'd be willing to pay. Max I'd pay is probably 95%, assuming I can play 98%+ VP on it, but that'd be if I was buying A LOT. If I'm buying something like $5k-10k, I'd probably go 90% at the most. If I can only play slots on it, then I'd probably buy it (at the most) around 80-85%....although that'd also require I know or have a very good estimate of the return on the slot I'm going to play.

You should know better than to think a slot's return is 66.7%. #MostFearedMostSecretiveWellKnownAPOnTheEastCoast
darkoz
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September 3rd, 2019 at 5:57:59 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Again, you're misreading what's being said. No one's saying that you should go pay 99.5% for FP. Obviously that's not going to be something you should seek out to go make money on that. But if it helps someone else because they sell it at a good price and I'm going to be playing anyway, then yeah I'll buy it at 99.5%. But if someone on this forum wanted to sell FP to some casino I have no intention of playing at, then I'm obviously not going to buy it at 99.5% and neither would Axel.

It obviously depends how much FP there is, the higher the amount the closer to 100% I'd be willing to pay. Max I'd pay is probably 95%, assuming I can play 98%+ VP on it, but that'd be if I was buying A LOT. If I'm buying something like $5k-10k, I'd probably go 90% at the most. If I can only play slots on it, then I'd probably buy it (at the most) around 80-85%....although that'd also require I know or have a very good estimate of the return on the slot I'm going to play.

You should know better than to think a slot's return is 66.7%. #MostFearedMostSecretiveWellKnownAPOnTheEastCoast



I know that 66.7% is not any slot return.

I do not want variance to turn a good investment into a bad investment. I demand 50% so I know I dont have to worry about variance and ending up with a loss.

I have lost $1800 in 15 minutes playing at $10 a spin. I have also won money when I didn't even want to (reasons too complicated to explain, only an AP would understand probably).

Im not letting variance ruin my return

And perhaps I demand a good solid amount of profit on a play

Its been a long time since I travelled on buses solely for the bus bonus

At any rate I rarely "buy" preexisting freeplay so for.me its all a hypothetical
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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September 3rd, 2019 at 5:58:03 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Fifty cents per $100 just doesn't do it for me even indefinitely.

Too small!

Under the right circumstances adding a half percent to your play could add thousands of dollars per hour.
And don't think for one minute situations haven't/won't come up where a half a percent adds thousands of dollars to someone's play.


Had anyone else came up with some of your responses in this thread I would think they had a lack of imagination and a limited understanding/knowledge of Advantage play.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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September 3rd, 2019 at 6:00:49 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I know that 66.7% is not any slot return.

I do not want variance to turn a good investment into a bad investment. I demand 50% so I know I dont have to worry about variance and ending up with a loss.

I have lost $1800 in 15 minutes playing at $10 a spin. I have also won money when I didn't even want to (reasons tok complicated to explain, only an AP would understand probably).

Im not letting variance ruin my return

And perhaps I demand a good solid amount of profit on a play

Its been a long time since I travelled on buses solely for the bus bonus

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♂️ 🤦‍♀️
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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September 3rd, 2019 at 6:05:48 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Under the right circumstances adding a half percent to your play could add thousands of dollars per hour.
And don't think for one minute situations haven't/won't come up where a half a percent adds thousands of dollars to someone's play.


Had anyone else came up with some of your responses in this thread I would think they had a lack of imagination and a limited understanding/knowledge of Advantage play.



There goes "under the right circumstances" again.

Sure, but as I have pointed out those are few and far between here on the East Coast.

And since you have to keep prefacing it with "under the right circumstances" it is pretty clear those are rare enough that you dont want to just say, "yes I buy it."

And once again we are talking about adding one half percent to freeplay, not to gameplay.

Unless u are purchasing unlimited or mega amounts of freeplay (tens of thousands of dollars) one half percent isnt large enough

We began this thread with a purchase of $500 fp. Again, you arent arguing that extra $2.50 is some huge edge if you purchased it are you?

And dont say well if you could purchase $500 fifty times over because thats just saying a purchase of $25,000

We are talking about $500 freeplay here
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DRich
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September 3rd, 2019 at 6:27:08 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz



I wouldn't pay more than 50%



I will gladly pay 80% at most Las Vegas casinos.

Wasn't there a guy on this forum trying to sell $5000 worth of freeplay? I am pretty sure I offered him $4000.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
darkoz
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September 3rd, 2019 at 6:44:42 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I will gladly pay 80% at most Las Vegas casinos.

Wasn't there a guy on this forum trying to sell $5000 worth of freeplay? I am pretty sure I offered him $4000.



Well we all may be speaking west coast/east coast apples n oranges

To my knowledge there is no casino on the East Coast that offers $5,000 freeplay in a single sitting (aside from some rare giveaways where few people win). In general $500 is max although I have seen higher at a few locations.

So if someone offered me $5000 in freeplay that would mean either of 2 scenarios.

1) $500 on 10 different players cards to be used same day

2) $5000 freeplay on one single players card but spread out through the entire month in drips n drabs. $250 here and $400 there, etc.

In both scenarios IF I was to consider it, there would be a certain amount of wariness (for what should be obvious reasons in both cases) that might even drive me to offer even less.

However if I could have $5000 freeplay for a single days use then yes, 80% Would be a reasonable amount for me to pay
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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September 3rd, 2019 at 8:15:46 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I will gladly pay 80% at most Las Vegas casinos.

Wasn't there a guy on this forum trying to sell $5000 worth of freeplay? I am pretty sure I offered him $4000.

I'll gladly pay 51%(even more) for $500 free play just about anywhere there's a good chance I would even take that deal on a gaffed online casino.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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September 3rd, 2019 at 8:30:01 PM permalink
Huhhh!

I know this is gonna throw the other AP's here into a tailspin, but after thinking it over I seriously doubt I would be willing to pay more than 25% or maybe 30% for freeplay.

I generally dont buy freeplay from people at least not in the sense being discussed here. So most people would probably balk and accuse me of being a cheapskate.

At any rate here is my reasoning why I would lowball freeplay so much. I understand this doesn't apply to many of you other guys but here is the simple reality for me.

My whole AP right now is to earn freeplay and turn it over in such a way that I make a profit. Not gonna discuss how. There are a few on here who understand.

Thats said, the real question for me is not what is the value of the freeplay in turnaround percentage BUT what would I normally spend to get an equivalent amount myself.

Lets take $5000 freeplay. If I can earn it myself for an expected loss ("investment" if you will) of $2000, then why in hell would I be interested in paying $4000 for the same amount?

Would any person on here pay $4000 or $4975 for $5000 of freeplay when they knew they could get it for themselves at only $2000 expense?

I highly doubt it. That would not be a good AP move in my book (said book which may one day be published- just a quick plug there)

But then I seem to think outside the box for most of you guys so who knows
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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September 3rd, 2019 at 9:12:49 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

There goes "under the right circumstances" again.

Sure, but as I have pointed out those are few and far between here on the East Coast.

And since you have to keep prefacing it with "under the right circumstances" it is pretty clear those are rare enough that you dont want to just say, "yes I buy it."

And once again we are talking about adding one half percent to freeplay, not to gameplay.

Unless u are purchasing unlimited or mega amounts of freeplay (tens of thousands of dollars) one half percent isnt large enough

We began this thread with a purchase of $500 fp. Again, you arent arguing that extra $2.50 is some huge edge if you purchased it are you?

And dont say well if you could purchase $500 fifty times over because thats just saying a purchase of $25,000

We are talking about $500 freeplay here

That example was never the point of this and I think you know that. I think you're just trying to muddy the waters so no one notices how absurd you seem not being willing to pay more than 50% for FreePlay, since you keep going back to that.

My point was.... there are times where paying high rates 4 FreePlay would be an advantage and it's unlikely 67% is too high, in fact, that's almost certainly too low and one would be foolish for sell it at that price, unless for some reason they couldn't play it themselves.

There are many situations that come up we're a half a percent makes all the difference in the world . Some of those plays can be incredible money makers. Personally am not usually engaging in plays where a half a percent makes a difference, although, I have many times and most certainly will in the future. Being able to recognize the value and potential of something and knowing when you should/shouldn't jump on something, and not having any hard fast rules("I won't pay more than 50%") is an important aspect Advantage play.

It's always wonderful when you have huge 50% to 200% advantages. Having much smaller percentages where you can get in a high volume of action can be significantly better. There's no reason to pass up those good opportunities if something you can afford.

And again, almost any good Advantage player would be willing to pay more than 50% for FreePlay, even on slots. Bridal
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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September 3rd, 2019 at 9:22:29 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

That example was never the point of this and I think you know that. I think you're just trying to muddy the waters so no one notices how absurd you seem not being willing to pay more than 50% for FreePlay, since you keep going back to that.

My point was.... there are times where paying high rates 4 FreePlay would be an advantage and it's unlikely 67% is too high, in fact, that's almost certainly too low and one would be foolish for sell it at that price, unless for some reason they couldn't play it themselves.

There are many situations that come up we're a half a percent makes all the difference in the world . Some of those plays can be incredible money makers. Personally am not usually engaging in plays where a half a percent makes a difference, although, I have many times and most certainly will in the future. Being able to recognize the value and potential of something and knowing when you should/shouldn't jump on something, and not having any hard fast rules("I won't pay more than 50%") is an important aspect Advantage play.

It's always wonderful when you have huge 50% to 200% advantages. Having much smaller percentages where you can get in a high volume of action can be significantly better. There's no reason to pass up those good opportunities if something you can afford.

And again, almost any good Advantage player would be willing to pay more than 50% for FreePlay, even on slots. Bridal



Well, not this one! Not at this time in my career.

If I was more desperate then yes I would pay more.

I suppose its like 2001: A Space Odyssey. I have moved onto a higher plane of AP existence than the rest of you.

Look up to the skies for the Star Baby AP
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Puckerbutt
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September 3rd, 2019 at 10:32:34 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I suppose its like 2001: A Space Odyssey. I have moved onto a higher plane of AP existence than the rest of you.

Look up to the skies for the Star Baby AP

At least I now know my gag reflex is in good working order.
My God! You're full of .....
something.
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RS
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September 4th, 2019 at 2:52:34 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Huhhh!

I know this is gonna throw the other AP's here into a tailspin, but after thinking it over I seriously doubt I would be willing to pay more than 25% or maybe 30% for freeplay.

I generally dont buy freeplay from people at least not in the sense being discussed here. So most people would probably balk and accuse me of being a cheapskate.

At any rate here is my reasoning why I would lowball freeplay so much. I understand this doesn't apply to many of you other guys but here is the simple reality for me.

My whole AP right now is to earn freeplay and turn it over in such a way that I make a profit. Not gonna discuss how. There are a few on here who understand.

Thats said, the real question for me is not what is the value of the freeplay in turnaround percentage BUT what would I normally spend to get an equivalent amount myself.

Lets take $5000 freeplay. If I can earn it myself for an expected loss ("investment" if you will) of $2000, then why in hell would I be interested in paying $4000 for the same amount?

Would any person on here pay $4000 or $4975 for $5000 of freeplay when they knew they could get it for themselves at only $2000 expense?

I highly doubt it. That would not be a good AP move in my book (said book which may one day be published- just a quick plug there)

But then I seem to think outside the box for most of you guys so who knows


If I could generate $5k in FP and it cost me $2k in EV......and someone is offering to sell $5k in FP for $4k......guess which offer I'm going to take.


BOTH


And we all damn well know that just because we can generate $3k in EV on a play it doesn't mean we should avoid every other play where the EV is lower. It'd be stupid to only play the highest EV thing. As long as the play meets my threshold of "worthiness" (hourly/monthly EV, risk, ease), then I'm going to play it.
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 3:45:42 AM permalink
Quote: RS

If I could generate $5k in FP and it cost me $2k in EV......and someone is offering to sell $5k in FP for $4k......guess which offer I'm going to take.


BOTH


And we all damn well know that just because we can generate $3k in EV on a play it doesn't mean we should avoid every other play where the EV is lower. It'd be stupid to only play the highest EV thing. As long as the play meets my threshold of "worthiness" (hourly/monthly EV, risk, ease), then I'm going to play it.



Holy crap!

I really am operating on a higher level than my fellow AP's.

If I can generate $3k in ev on a play and someone offers me $1k ev on a play, I am not going to accept it.

Instead I will generate the same offers he has myself and save me $2000!!!

I cant believe serious AP's on here are actually suggesting that paying $2000 MORE for an item than they need to (freeplay in this case) is wise advantage gambling.

Now I truly understand why it took myself to put fear into the casinos

To put it another way,

Rather than pay $4000 for a $1k advantage I could now put that $4000 into DOUBLE the offers (generating $10,000 in freeplay)

Why would I make such a purchase of freeplay just because its there when I can get so much more out of my capital bankroll by investing it more wisely?
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SingleCoinVP
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September 4th, 2019 at 3:59:41 AM permalink
I find the discussion of free play buying and selling interesting. If someone offered me $500 for my free play, I wouldn't have sold it. I would have always wondered what I could have won on my own. I have seen people at the Tampa casino win more than $500 in free play numerous times. I once sat next to a lady who won a car. The problem with drawings is you must be there when they call your name. The bigger drawings are held late at night when I'm in bed.
AxelWolf
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September 4th, 2019 at 4:05:36 AM permalink
Quote: RS

If I could generate $5k in FP and it cost me $2k in EV......and someone is offering to sell $5k in FP for $4k......guess which offer I'm going to take.


BOTH


And we all damn well know that just because we can generate $3k in EV on a play it doesn't mean we should avoid every other play where the EV is lower. It'd be stupid to only play the highest EV thing. As long as the play meets my threshold of "worthiness" (hourly/monthly EV, risk, ease), then I'm going to play it.

this post was almost brilliant nice spoiler I had a good laugh.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
SOOPOO
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September 4th, 2019 at 4:06:22 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I agree.

RMS and Axel are saying they are willing to BUY freeplay from you for 99.5% of its value

I wouldn't pay more than 50%



THEY DID NOT SAY THAT AT ALL! What Axel said is that there might be a SPECIFIC circumstance in which he would do that. He even laid out a specific example!

I am not an AP, and have never bought or sold free play. But if it is 'regular' freeplay which is only exposed to the house edge once, and usable at VP machines, then its EV is somewhere in the high 90's%. So darkoz, you are telling me that if someone has $1000 in free play, and you trust that there are no shenanigans, and you will be going to that casino anyways, that you wouldn't pay the guy $600 for that $1000 in free play? Is that what you really are saying?

Edit.... I answered before reading downthread. Dark, I understand that you feel you can earn the free play on different plays cheaper than 50%, so that is why you picked that number. But why can't you do both? My above example would ADD around $350 in EV to whatever other plays you are already doing. You have not provided a cogent reason why you don't want that extra $350 in your pocket.
AxelWolf
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September 4th, 2019 at 4:09:34 AM permalink
Quote: SingleCoinVP

I find the discussion of free play buying and selling interesting. If someone offered me $500 for my free play, I wouldn't have sold it. I would have always wondered what I could have won on my own. I have seen people at the Tampa casino win more than $500 in free play numerous times. I once sat next to a lady who won a car. The problem with drawings is you must be there when they call your name. The bigger drawings are held late at night when I'm in bed.

Now that's some solid thinking right there.

I guess I better point out that is sarcasm or DO might actually agree with me again and show his real AP skills and knowledge.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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ForagerDRich
September 4th, 2019 at 4:16:10 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz



But then I seem to think outside the box for most of you guys so who knows

You should probably start with thinking outside the BUS.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 4:18:36 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Now that's some solid thinking right there.

I guess I better point out that is sarcasm or DO might actually agree with me again and show his real AP skills and knowledge.



Yeesh, I am glad you did.

I had my finger on the quote button ready to go :)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 4:27:47 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

THEY DID NOT SAY THAT AT ALL! What Axel said is that there might be a SPECIFIC circumstance in which he would do that. He even laid out a specific example!

I am not an AP, and have never bought or sold free play. But if it is 'regular' freeplay which is only exposed to the house edge once, and usable at VP machines, then its EV is somewhere in the high 90's%. So darkoz, you are telling me that if someone has $1000 in free play, and you trust that there are no shenanigans, and you will be going to that casino anyways, that you wouldn't pay the guy $600 for that $1000 in free play? Is that what you really are saying?

Edit.... I answered before reading downthread. Dark, I understand that you feel you can earn the free play on different plays cheaper than 50%, so that is why you picked that number. But why can't you do both? My above example would ADD around $350 in EV to whatever other plays you are already doing. You have not provided a cogent reason why you don't want that extra $350 in your pocket.



I suppose if it was a really close friend and I knew he wss desperate for some fast guaranteed cash I might buy it off him. But that is on the personal favor front.

I gave my reasoning about 3 posts ago but maybe you skipped over it.

I can take the money I would spend on thst extra $350 in my pocket and generate a higher amount of freeplay turning what would have been ONLY an extra $350 into perhaps $700 or $800 extra.

Certainly none of you guys would do this in the world outside of the casinos.

You own a cow and can generate $1000 in milk for $100. Your neighbor wants to sell you $1000 in milk for $500. You think to yourself "well, I can always use milk. No point in turning it down." Or do you say to your neighbor, "Thanks for the offer but I can generate my own milk for a lot cheaper."
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RS
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Forager
September 4th, 2019 at 4:37:07 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Why would I make such a purchase of freeplay just because its there when I can get so much more out of my capital bankroll by investing it more wisely?


I honestly can't tell if you're being serious with all this nonsense or just yanking our chains. Although I do enjoy all the "casinos fear me" stuff. Shades of ZenKing.
RS
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September 4th, 2019 at 4:39:44 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

You own a cow and can generate $1000 in milk for $100. Your neighbor wants to sell you $1000 in milk for $500. You think to yourself "well, I can always use milk. No point in turning it down." Or do you say to your neighbor, "Thanks for the offer but I can generate my own milk for a lot cheaper."


You buy the milk then sell it for $1,000.
darkoz
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 4:44:16 AM permalink
Quote: RS

You buy the milk then sell it for $1,000.



Yuck.

The smart move is take the $500, generate 5x the milk yourself and sell that for $5000.

I seriously cant believe you guys cant get this concept.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 4th, 2019 at 5:01:09 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: RS

If I could generate $5k in FP and it cost me $2k in EV......and someone is offering to sell $5k in FP for $4k......guess which offer I'm going to take.


BOTH


And we all damn well know that just because we can generate $3k in EV on a play it doesn't mean we should avoid every other play where the EV is lower. It'd be stupid to only play the highest EV thing. As long as the play meets my threshold of "worthiness" (hourly/monthly EV, risk, ease), then I'm going to play it.



Holy crap!

I really am operating on a higher level than my fellow AP's.

If I can generate $3k in ev on a play and someone offers me $1k ev on a play, I am not going to accept it.

Instead I will generate the same offers he has myself and save me $2000!!!

I cant believe serious AP's on here are actually suggesting that paying $2000 MORE for an item than they need to (freeplay in this case) is wise advantage gambling.

Now I truly understand why it took myself to put fear into the casinos

To put it another way,

Rather than pay $4000 for a $1k advantage I could now put that $4000 into DOUBLE the offers (generating $10,000 in freeplay)

Why would I make such a purchase of freeplay just because its there when I can get so much more out of my capital bankroll by investing it more wisely?

So you're telling me that you have your entire bankroll capital invested at once?

I could see if one were in a situation where they didn't have the time to waist on a lesser ROI. You clearly have time to waste.

You put fear in the casinos because you're playing on multiple players cards that don't belong to you(as I said before, that might actually be considered a crime in some jurisdictions even if it's not, the casino's considerate to me sometimes ). At first look, for all they know those cards and pin numbers are stolen, or you're in on some scam with a casino employee, or they think you're doing something sketchy or illegal .
We all know what the casinos intentions are when they send free play. They want to get THAT player back in the door. Casinos will be pissed off if someone was using multiple cards even if it was just a measly $5 in freeplay.

A a fierce AP would be one who uses logic understands that could be wrong and hard fast rules should be avoided for the most part. And, instead of arguing against something they don't really grasp.... they would be asking themselves if they were possibly missing something valuable. The try to learn in hopes that they could add that stuff to their arsenal so they can grab as much money and value as they could when and if those opportunities presented themselves.

It seems like your style of play is to walk past 15 twenty dollar bills laying on the ground so you can get to a $100 bill.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Puckerbutt
Puckerbutt
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Thanks for this post from:
RS
September 4th, 2019 at 5:03:02 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

But then I seem to think outside the box for most of you guys so who knows

Is all this "thinking outside the box" regarding freeplay a direct result of your daughter getting scammed out of $4K?
If'n I'd a knowed you wanted to have went with me - I'd a seen that you got to get to go.
darkoz
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 5:07:28 AM permalink
Quote: Puckerbutt

Is all this "thinking outside the box" regarding freeplay a direct result of your daughter getting scammed out of $4K?



It seems so natural on here for insults to start coming when people realize their arguments just cant compete with my logic
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 5:15:02 AM permalink
I will try to give another real world example although you guys just seem determined not to understand.

You work in a comic book store.

You purchase comics from your distribution company for $2 a copy and sell them for $4 apiece.

A guy comes in with the same title and says he wants to sell it to you for $3.

According to RS, he thinks it wise to purchase the book for $3 because in his mind he is making an extra buck if he didnt have that extra copy (I guarantee his boss would be hopping mad he paid $3 for the same item that costs only $2.

According to Axelwolf, the shop owner is dead wrong because this proves the shop owner is dry on funds. He should have spent more for an item than he needed to because ANY profit is good profit.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Puckerbutt
Puckerbutt
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September 4th, 2019 at 5:23:12 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

It seems so natural on here for insults to start coming when people realize their arguments just cant compete with my logic

It wasn't meant as an insult, and frankly, I don't know how it can be taken as such. It is merely a logical question based on historical information that you have posted.
If'n I'd a knowed you wanted to have went with me - I'd a seen that you got to get to go.
darkoz
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 5:36:41 AM permalink
Quote: Puckerbutt

It wasn't meant as an insult, and frankly, I don't know how it can be taken as such. It is merely a logical question based on historical information that you have posted.



Okay I will take the question then at face value.

My daughter was involved in the purchase of freeplay and wss scammed (by a former poster on here who shall not be named.)

I also purchased freeplay at various times in the past from that poster. I dont remember all the details of the deal we made back then for freeplay purchase. I do remember as certain requirements were unable to be met it invariably resulted in renegotiated deals. I did come out somewhat satisfied in the end.

However purchasing freeplay just wasn't worth it to me when the final scam with my daughter went down. That scam had been targeted at me. It was me who was offered the purchase of the freeplay and by then I didnt feel it was worth the price for the reasons I have stated in this thread.

My daughter however was building her own thing and looking for a shortcut so she went ahead and set up her own deal. And unfortunately that cost her.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
billryan
billryan
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September 4th, 2019 at 7:45:22 AM permalink
Let's play.
I can earn $5,000 in free play at a cost of $2,000.
I can buy $5,000 in free play for $4,000.
In the first scenario, I make a $3,000 profit but have to put in some time and effort.
In the second, I make $1,000 with less effort.
Tough choice.
Why not do the third scenario, do both and make $4,000 with about the same effort as the first option.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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September 4th, 2019 at 7:52:31 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Let's play.
I can earn $5,000 in free play at a cost of $2,000.
I can buy $5,000 in free play for $4,000.
In the first scenario, I make a $3,000 profit but have to put in some time and effort.
In the second, I make $1,000 with less effort.
Tough choice.
Why not do the third scenario, do both and make $4,000 with about the same effort as the first option.



Thank you Billy. Dark's inability to not be able to answer the question.. "WHY NOT DO BOTH!!!!!" is hurting my brain. If dark would have said..... 'if I use that bought free play it would limit my ability to use my other free play', I'd understand. If he said, 'I've been scammed buying free play in the past', I'd understand. But I CAN'T UNDERSTAND, from the hypothetical no side effects from using the free play, why anyone would not want $1000 worth of free play for $500, when they can reliably turn that into $900+.
michael99000
michael99000
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September 4th, 2019 at 8:07:04 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Let's play.
I can earn $5,000 in free play at a cost of $2,000.
I can buy $5,000 in free play for $4,000.



I think I do see darkozís point.

If I can get $5000 in Freeplay by either paying $2000 or $4000, then while both of those might be good deals, why not just put all my money/resources into the $2000 cost method ?

That $4000 I spend buying it from someone , can instead be used to generate $10,000 in FP

The only thing you give up is some time , since buying it is much less time consuming then playing to earn it
billryan
billryan
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September 4th, 2019 at 8:09:55 AM permalink
People here have a tendency of painting themselves into corners, and then doubling down, if I may mix metaphors.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
EdgeSorter
EdgeSorter
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September 4th, 2019 at 8:14:08 AM permalink
What about online free play that must be churned through 30 times? Assuming the free play is only allowable on a traditional slot machine format (no VP, no simulated table games, etc.), how would you go about playing the actual machine?

I understand that MAX BET usually has a slightly higher EV, but the variance could quite easily take your whole comp. I was thinking that maximizing number of lines and minimizing bet per line would be the way to go. (Also NOTE that i-gaming slots usually show the theoretical payback in the rules section. Obviously, this is another major factor.)

Thoughts?
darkoz
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 8:14:51 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Let's play.
I can earn $5,000 in free play at a cost of $2,000.
I can buy $5,000 in free play for $4,000.
In the first scenario, I make a $3,000 profit but have to put in some time and effort.
In the second, I make $1,000 with less effort.
Tough choice.
Why not do the third scenario, do both and make $4,000 with about the same effort as the first option.



I actually never said I wouldn't buy the freeplay!

What I said was my buy price would only be 25-30% face value because I can get freeplay myself for significantly less than 80% face value on my own.

Most likely people wont like my lowball but that's on them

So as you say lets play

You ended with why not do the third scenario, do both and make about $4000 with about the same effort.

I say why not do the fourth scenario.

Do both! But demand the purchase of the freeplay be more beneficial to me than if I earned it myself for $2000. Sell it to me for $1500.

Then I can make $6500 profit for about the same effort.

Remember at this point in my AP life, I am not the one hungry to buy freeplay, it is someone hungry to sell it to me.

Make it worth more to me than if I earned it myself

That is the point.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
billryan
billryan
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September 4th, 2019 at 8:21:50 AM permalink
Then they try to triple down.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 8:33:16 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Then they try to triple down.



Did you skip over my response right above this post or is that the response?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
billryan
billryan
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September 4th, 2019 at 8:39:42 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Did you skip over my response right above this post or is that the response?



Yes!
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 8:45:36 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Yes!



Huhhh!

You answered yes to an "or" question so...

I still dont have an answer lol.

I guess I was looking for a more insightful response to the 4th scenario post which you read...

Or missed
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 4th, 2019 at 9:16:31 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I actually never said I wouldn't buy the freeplay!

What I said was my buy price would only be 25-30% face value because I can get freeplay myself for significantly less than 80% face value on my own.

Most likely people wont like my lowball but that's on them

So as you say lets play

You ended with why not do the third scenario, do both and make about $4000 with about the same effort.

I say why not do the fourth scenario.

Do both! But demand the purchase of the freeplay be more beneficial to me than if I earned it myself for $2000. Sell it to me for $1500.

Then I can make $6500 profit for about the same effort.

Remember at this point in my AP life, I am not the one hungry to buy freeplay, it is someone hungry to sell it to me.

Make it worth more to me than if I earned it myself

That is the point.

you're adding in all kinds of extra stuff to defend yourself which I understand cuz at this point it doesn't shine a good light on your AP knowledge. Of course many of us are willing to lowball people. I have bought free play for pennies on the dollar, however, not everyone is stupid enough to sell their free play at such a low rate. And you should know this because I think we've had a discussion about free play where I asked why you would pump up the value of free play during your bus Adventures.

If someone's driving a hard bargain( in your case 51%) it seems like it would be absolutely retarded not to go above 50% on a $500 offer.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DRich
DRich
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September 4th, 2019 at 9:17:50 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz



You own a cow and can generate $1000 in milk for $100. Your neighbor wants to sell you $1000 in milk for $500. You think to yourself "well, I can always use milk. No point in turning it down." Or do you say to your neighbor, "Thanks for the offer but I can generate my own milk for a lot cheaper."



What if the cow can only produce milk once?

Many AP plays have a cap on the free play. If the free play on the promotion was capped at $5000 why wouldn't you do your own and buy the other persons? You may think you are really smart, but you often miss the obvious.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
darkoz
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 9:25:27 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

What if the cow can only produce milk once?

Many AP plays have a cap on the free play. If the free play on the promotion was capped at $5000 why wouldn't you do your own and buy the other persons? You may think you are really smart, but you often miss the obvious.



LMAO

I am not the one missing the obvious

Buy more than one cow. Create a whole dairy farm!

Get it.

Have multiple players cards

Get it?

Yes, $5000 cap on freeplay, I agree.

Now collect 10, 20 , 50 players cards each with the ability to deliver to me $5000 freeplay

And why would I waste my time paying more for freeplay than I can earning it myself in that scenario
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 4th, 2019 at 9:43:41 AM permalink
Quote: michael99000

I think I do see darkozís point.

If I can get $5000 in Freeplay by either paying $2000 or $4000, then while both of those might be good deals, why not just put all my money/resources into the $2000 cost method ?

That $4000 I spend buying it from someone , can instead be used to generate $10,000 in FP

The only thing you give up is some time , since buying it is much less time consuming then playing to earn it

if one had the opportunity and willingness to have all their money invested and his example then that might be a valid point. Perhaps busboy doesn't have very much money and that's why he's not willing to do it since he desperately needs that money to invest in the other play.

I have a feeling in his example there's much more risk than he's letting on the risk of going to jail the risk of having money confiscated, the risk of someone grabbing their own free play after you invested 2,000 and other various pitfalls.

Let me give you a small example with situation that might help you understand. What say you have a bankroll $5,000. Now let's Let's say he sometimes gets inside information on sports bets that are almost a sure thing (I can almost guarantee you buying free play at 51% is almost a sure thing)

Casino A has the line set at + 200 with a maximum of a $500 bet.
Casino B has the line set at + 150 with a maximum bet a $500. Wouldn't it seem logical that person should make both bets?
Wouldn't you think it was crazy that person said I don't make bets unless its +200. I can see if that person only had seven or eight hundred bucks that you might want to save a few hundred bucks just in case a different bet with a super good line came up while he was waiting for the original bet to resolve. However if somebody has enough money to cover most foreseeable situations it makes absolutely no sense lot to take the + 150 bet as well.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
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September 4th, 2019 at 10:16:27 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf



I have a feeling in his example there's much more risk than he's letting on

the risk of going to jail = NO

The risk of having money confiscated, = NO

the risk of someone grabbing their own free play after you invested 2,000 = YES BUT I USE TRUSTED PEOPLE OR THOSE BROUGHT IN BY TRUSTED PEOPLE TO MITIGATE THAT



The truth is I have been suspicious that you are the one with limited bankroll and funds considering how you claim you never wish to miss a play.

That sounds to me like someone who may find themselves short of rent and gas money if they dont chase every opportunity

Since you consistently try to make it sound like there is something wrong with public transportation as if to divert attention from your own shortcomings financially
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

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