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GWAE
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December 15th, 2018 at 7:17:35 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Quote: GWAE

Quote: MichaelBluejay

For the first part of your question, yes. I didn't call anyone a prick, or come anywhere close to anything that mean or hostile, and never would. Whether what I said qualifies as condescension is debatable, but even if it were, it's an order of magnitude away from calling someone a prick.

For the record, I apologize if anything I said came across as condescension, though I'll admit to being annoyed. People keep asking me questions that I addressed head-on in the article, suggesting they hadn't read it, even though I provided it for the express purpose of answering those kinds of questions. To me, that's kind of rude.

Interestingly, people either seem to hate me or love me, with no middle ground. This was posted on another forum in response to a post I made yesterday:



Yes, TurboTax definitely gets this wrong, and that's not the only thing. I often have to battle it to get the right figures input, in the right place (e.g., self-employed health insurance deduction for S Corporations). TurboTax on the whole is pretty lousy. For gambling income, I ignore the W-2G questions and manually enter an "other income" item that I label "Gambling winnings".

I'm all for complaining about the unfairness of the gambling tax. Someone posted an example of how losses can't effectively be deducted and asked whether he had that right, and whether it seemed fair. Yet my article has *an entire section* titled, in large flaming green letters, "Yes, it's not fair", which details the various unfair aspects, including exactly the one the poster asked about.


Quote: odiousgambit

Was that five $1200 W2s? All five times [fewer is worse] you lost it all back during the same session?

This is taxing my memory (no pun intended) (okay, maybe a little) since it was ten years ago, and I don't have my records handy. I don't remember exactly how many W-2Gs I got or what the amounts were, but I'm sure it was at least five, and I never had a winning session. I think I was wagering $50 or $100 a hand, in a supposedly AP comp situation, and my results on the game itself were way south of expectations.

It could have been talking $38k, I don't really remember. And yeah, it could have been a risk of being contacted, but I honestly wasn't worried. During the first Gulf War I stopped paying taxes in protest because I didn't want my tax money used to kill people. (It was a lot easier to protest back then when I didn't have any money.) I joined a group of other tax resisters (mostly Quaker ladies) who'd been resisting for years, and read books written by former IRS collections officers and the Quaker groups who aggregated the experiences of the resisters, so I felt pretty well versed on how the system worked. Many people seem to quake in fear of the IRS which I think is for the most part unfounded. There's this idea that if you pay your taxes a day late they're gonna be at your door with guns and handcuffs. In reality I've filed and paid taxes as much as 4.5 years late when I got behind, and in most cases when I've been late, even by years, I've barely heard from the IRS. If you do hear from them about an issue that you reported correctly then you just politely show them your evidence and the tax instructions and they'll almost certainly agree with you. If not you can appeal and you'll almost certainly win there. It's not a guarantee, sure, but I'm sure as hell not gonna pay extra tax that I don't really owe just because I fear that the IRS might make an inquiry.

Well, at the risk of getting called a prick again, this has already been done, and is mentioned in the article...twice. The case is Shollenberger v Commissioner.



I certainly did not read every post in this thread and I am not sure how terrible the questions are. I did indeed read your post.

I need to go back and read your article again as my reading comprehension sucks and I didn't realize that there would be this much discussion. If I am recalling correctly you are saying that if I gamble 1 time this year and get a w2g for 2k on my first spin, but before the session is over I lose 5k then I do not have to report any gambling at all on my taxes. However I will get a notice from the IRS that I owe taxes for the missing w2g. But you say we can fight with them and not actually have to pay that tax? If that is the case how likely is that going to trigger and audit? If you finally talk the IRS agent into that argument I would imagine they don't believe the was the case. Taking it a step further. Say you gambled a bunch throughout the year and have 20 w2gs but still never had a winning session. You shouldn't have to pay but I can't imagine the IRS ever believes you didn't have 1 winning session. Maybe I am not understanding any of this but it seems like very few people actually do understand it.


As long as you can back up the facts and circumstances of your gambling activities with a contemporaneous gambling journal, then you are correct in both examples. No gambling winnings need be reported, you will almost certainly be contacted by the IRS, and you will tell them that you follow the session accounting rules and had no winning sessions for the year. Backed up by your journal which shows only losing sessions.



That may be true but I would wager that 99.54% of people who gamble do not count every session and do not keep perfect records. I played poker the other and won $96. It appears nowhere on my records. Even with good records it becomes a matter of convincing an auditor that they are correct and truthful.

It has got to drive agents crazy. In 2001 - 2012 I had nothing to report for gambling. 2013-2015 I had w2g totals with 0 profit. 2016, nothing reported. 2017 w2gs reported. IRS isnt that stupid to think that my gambling was only to the amount of my w2gs and I didnt gamble in 2016.

I guess if you truly keep a correct journal then by all means fight them, but with correct accounting I am sure your agi is going to skyrocket and your taxes will suffer.

If you go to the casino every single day and $1000 with our favorite craps players hit and run strategy, but on the final day you go crazy and lose 364k. You are going to report a 364k win and a loss of 364k on schedule A. Now you are a 1% er and you get crushed at a higher tax bracket and your 50k a year income gets destroyed.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Wizard
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December 15th, 2018 at 8:26:54 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

If you go to the casino every single day and $1000 with our favorite craps players hit and run strategy, but on the final day you go crazy and lose 364k. You are going to report a 364k win and a loss of 364k on schedule A. Now you are a 1% er and you get crushed at a higher tax bracket and your 50k a year income gets destroyed.



Just so nobody is confused, your taxable income (line 43 of the 1040) is after taking either the itemized or standard deduction. Line 44 is the tax based on line 43.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
FCBLComish
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December 15th, 2018 at 9:02:37 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange



Also, some casinos cages will check your buy-in at the table if you used a Player's Card and deduct that from your cash-out so you don't trigger a CTR..



This is not true. Cash in and Cash out transactions are always aggregated separately. That's Federal law.
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onenickelmiracle
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December 15th, 2018 at 11:55:20 PM permalink
Casinos have a form where you can request copies of w2gs, 1099s, etc. for the year.
I am a robot.
WangSanJose
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December 16th, 2018 at 2:17:50 AM permalink
If wife and husband file tax return together,
wife won a lot in VP,
husband lost a lot in Blackjack,
can husband use his lost to deduct wife's winning?
Great
AcesAndEights
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December 16th, 2018 at 4:07:09 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Quote: AcesAndEights

Quote: GWAE

Quote: MichaelBluejay

For the first part of your question, yes. I didn't call anyone a prick, or come anywhere close to anything that mean or hostile, and never would. Whether what I said qualifies as condescension is debatable, but even if it were, it's an order of magnitude away from calling someone a prick.

For the record, I apologize if anything I said came across as condescension, though I'll admit to being annoyed. People keep asking me questions that I addressed head-on in the article, suggesting they hadn't read it, even though I provided it for the express purpose of answering those kinds of questions. To me, that's kind of rude.

Interestingly, people either seem to hate me or love me, with no middle ground. This was posted on another forum in response to a post I made yesterday:



Yes, TurboTax definitely gets this wrong, and that's not the only thing. I often have to battle it to get the right figures input, in the right place (e.g., self-employed health insurance deduction for S Corporations). TurboTax on the whole is pretty lousy. For gambling income, I ignore the W-2G questions and manually enter an "other income" item that I label "Gambling winnings".

I'm all for complaining about the unfairness of the gambling tax. Someone posted an example of how losses can't effectively be deducted and asked whether he had that right, and whether it seemed fair. Yet my article has *an entire section* titled, in large flaming green letters, "Yes, it's not fair", which details the various unfair aspects, including exactly the one the poster asked about.


Quote: odiousgambit

Was that five $1200 W2s? All five times [fewer is worse] you lost it all back during the same session?

This is taxing my memory (no pun intended) (okay, maybe a little) since it was ten years ago, and I don't have my records handy. I don't remember exactly how many W-2Gs I got or what the amounts were, but I'm sure it was at least five, and I never had a winning session. I think I was wagering $50 or $100 a hand, in a supposedly AP comp situation, and my results on the game itself were way south of expectations.

It could have been talking $38k, I don't really remember. And yeah, it could have been a risk of being contacted, but I honestly wasn't worried. During the first Gulf War I stopped paying taxes in protest because I didn't want my tax money used to kill people. (It was a lot easier to protest back then when I didn't have any money.) I joined a group of other tax resisters (mostly Quaker ladies) who'd been resisting for years, and read books written by former IRS collections officers and the Quaker groups who aggregated the experiences of the resisters, so I felt pretty well versed on how the system worked. Many people seem to quake in fear of the IRS which I think is for the most part unfounded. There's this idea that if you pay your taxes a day late they're gonna be at your door with guns and handcuffs. In reality I've filed and paid taxes as much as 4.5 years late when I got behind, and in most cases when I've been late, even by years, I've barely heard from the IRS. If you do hear from them about an issue that you reported correctly then you just politely show them your evidence and the tax instructions and they'll almost certainly agree with you. If not you can appeal and you'll almost certainly win there. It's not a guarantee, sure, but I'm sure as hell not gonna pay extra tax that I don't really owe just because I fear that the IRS might make an inquiry.

Well, at the risk of getting called a prick again, this has already been done, and is mentioned in the article...twice. The case is Shollenberger v Commissioner.



I certainly did not read every post in this thread and I am not sure how terrible the questions are. I did indeed read your post.

I need to go back and read your article again as my reading comprehension sucks and I didn't realize that there would be this much discussion. If I am recalling correctly you are saying that if I gamble 1 time this year and get a w2g for 2k on my first spin, but before the session is over I lose 5k then I do not have to report any gambling at all on my taxes. However I will get a notice from the IRS that I owe taxes for the missing w2g. But you say we can fight with them and not actually have to pay that tax? If that is the case how likely is that going to trigger and audit? If you finally talk the IRS agent into that argument I would imagine they don't believe the was the case. Taking it a step further. Say you gambled a bunch throughout the year and have 20 w2gs but still never had a winning session. You shouldn't have to pay but I can't imagine the IRS ever believes you didn't have 1 winning session. Maybe I am not understanding any of this but it seems like very few people actually do understand it.


As long as you can back up the facts and circumstances of your gambling activities with a contemporaneous gambling journal, then you are correct in both examples. No gambling winnings need be reported, you will almost certainly be contacted by the IRS, and you will tell them that you follow the session accounting rules and had no winning sessions for the year. Backed up by your journal which shows only losing sessions.



That may be true but I would wager that 99.54% of people who gamble do not count every session and do not keep perfect records. I played poker the other and won $96. It appears nowhere on my records. Even with good records it becomes a matter of convincing an auditor that they are correct and truthful.

It has got to drive agents crazy. In 2001 - 2012 I had nothing to report for gambling. 2013-2015 I had w2g totals with 0 profit. 2016, nothing reported. 2017 w2gs reported. IRS isnt that stupid to think that my gambling was only to the amount of my w2gs and I didnt gamble in 2016.

I guess if you truly keep a correct journal then by all means fight them, but with correct accounting I am sure your agi is going to skyrocket and your taxes will suffer.

If you go to the casino every single day and $1000 with our favorite craps players hit and run strategy, but on the final day you go crazy and lose 364k. You are going to report a 364k win and a loss of 364k on schedule A. Now you are a 1% er and you get crushed at a higher tax bracket and your 50k a year income gets destroyed.


I suggest you begin keeping a gambling journal. It's not that hard.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
ChumpChange
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December 16th, 2018 at 5:06:09 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

I always wondered if these agencies really don't contact each other. When I worked in the census it was always told that nothing that we do gets reported to any other agencies including ice or ins. Do they really not talk at all?



IRS Not Making Much Use Of Bank Currency Reports
https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2018/09/28/irs-not-making-much-use-of-bank-currency-reports/#5ad8590f1ff1
CTR $10,000 line has been around since 1970, and would be 2/3rds of $100,000 today according to the CPI calculator.
Wizard
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December 16th, 2018 at 7:16:02 AM permalink
Quote: WangSanJose

If wife and husband file tax return together,
wife won a lot in VP,
husband lost a lot in Blackjack,
can husband use his lost to deduct wife's winning?



Yes. The accounting is more complicated, but it is as if one person did all the gambling. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AcesAndEights
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December 16th, 2018 at 7:17:58 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Yes. The accounting is more complicated, but it is as if one person did all the gambling. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


I agree. It's all on one return, so there would be no way to separate it anyway.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Wizard
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December 16th, 2018 at 7:28:57 AM permalink
I found my copy of Tax Help for Gamblers, which is co-authored by my own tax accountant, Marisa Chien. It verifies what I wrote earlier, you can follow the rules and run a high chance of being audited and spend 12-18 months fighting the IRS or enter an amount on line 21 equal or greater than the sum of your W2G forms and deduct whatever necessary on schedule A. Pages 86 to 89 are specifically on this topic, but I'll just quote the last paragraph:

Quote: Tax Help for Gamblers

In summary, reporting a number that's less than your W-2G total is controversial, even among tax professionals, and untested in the courts. Until there are clear instructions from the IRS, as well as definitive court cases, this must be decided on a case-by-case basis and depends on the willingness of the gambler to fight the IRS.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
GWAE
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December 16th, 2018 at 8:26:08 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Quote: GWAE

Quote: AcesAndEights

Quote: GWAE

Quote: MichaelBluejay

For the first part of your question, yes. I didn't call anyone a prick, or come anywhere close to anything that mean or hostile, and never would. Whether what I said qualifies as condescension is debatable, but even if it were, it's an order of magnitude away from calling someone a prick.

For the record, I apologize if anything I said came across as condescension, though I'll admit to being annoyed. People keep asking me questions that I addressed head-on in the article, suggesting they hadn't read it, even though I provided it for the express purpose of answering those kinds of questions. To me, that's kind of rude.

Interestingly, people either seem to hate me or love me, with no middle ground. This was posted on another forum in response to a post I made yesterday:



Yes, TurboTax definitely gets this wrong, and that's not the only thing. I often have to battle it to get the right figures input, in the right place (e.g., self-employed health insurance deduction for S Corporations). TurboTax on the whole is pretty lousy. For gambling income, I ignore the W-2G questions and manually enter an "other income" item that I label "Gambling winnings".

I'm all for complaining about the unfairness of the gambling tax. Someone posted an example of how losses can't effectively be deducted and asked whether he had that right, and whether it seemed fair. Yet my article has *an entire section* titled, in large flaming green letters, "Yes, it's not fair", which details the various unfair aspects, including exactly the one the poster asked about.


Quote: odiousgambit

Was that five $1200 W2s? All five times [fewer is worse] you lost it all back during the same session?

This is taxing my memory (no pun intended) (okay, maybe a little) since it was ten years ago, and I don't have my records handy. I don't remember exactly how many W-2Gs I got or what the amounts were, but I'm sure it was at least five, and I never had a winning session. I think I was wagering $50 or $100 a hand, in a supposedly AP comp situation, and my results on the game itself were way south of expectations.

It could have been talking $38k, I don't really remember. And yeah, it could have been a risk of being contacted, but I honestly wasn't worried. During the first Gulf War I stopped paying taxes in protest because I didn't want my tax money used to kill people. (It was a lot easier to protest back then when I didn't have any money.) I joined a group of other tax resisters (mostly Quaker ladies) who'd been resisting for years, and read books written by former IRS collections officers and the Quaker groups who aggregated the experiences of the resisters, so I felt pretty well versed on how the system worked. Many people seem to quake in fear of the IRS which I think is for the most part unfounded. There's this idea that if you pay your taxes a day late they're gonna be at your door with guns and handcuffs. In reality I've filed and paid taxes as much as 4.5 years late when I got behind, and in most cases when I've been late, even by years, I've barely heard from the IRS. If you do hear from them about an issue that you reported correctly then you just politely show them your evidence and the tax instructions and they'll almost certainly agree with you. If not you can appeal and you'll almost certainly win there. It's not a guarantee, sure, but I'm sure as hell not gonna pay extra tax that I don't really owe just because I fear that the IRS might make an inquiry.

Well, at the risk of getting called a prick again, this has already been done, and is mentioned in the article...twice. The case is Shollenberger v Commissioner.



I certainly did not read every post in this thread and I am not sure how terrible the questions are. I did indeed read your post.

I need to go back and read your article again as my reading comprehension sucks and I didn't realize that there would be this much discussion. If I am recalling correctly you are saying that if I gamble 1 time this year and get a w2g for 2k on my first spin, but before the session is over I lose 5k then I do not have to report any gambling at all on my taxes. However I will get a notice from the IRS that I owe taxes for the missing w2g. But you say we can fight with them and not actually have to pay that tax? If that is the case how likely is that going to trigger and audit? If you finally talk the IRS agent into that argument I would imagine they don't believe the was the case. Taking it a step further. Say you gambled a bunch throughout the year and have 20 w2gs but still never had a winning session. You shouldn't have to pay but I can't imagine the IRS ever believes you didn't have 1 winning session. Maybe I am not understanding any of this but it seems like very few people actually do understand it.


As long as you can back up the facts and circumstances of your gambling activities with a contemporaneous gambling journal, then you are correct in both examples. No gambling winnings need be reported, you will almost certainly be contacted by the IRS, and you will tell them that you follow the session accounting rules and had no winning sessions for the year. Backed up by your journal which shows only losing sessions.



That may be true but I would wager that 99.54% of people who gamble do not count every session and do not keep perfect records. I played poker the other and won $96. It appears nowhere on my records. Even with good records it becomes a matter of convincing an auditor that they are correct and truthful.

It has got to drive agents crazy. In 2001 - 2012 I had nothing to report for gambling. 2013-2015 I had w2g totals with 0 profit. 2016, nothing reported. 2017 w2gs reported. IRS isnt that stupid to think that my gambling was only to the amount of my w2gs and I didnt gamble in 2016.

I guess if you truly keep a correct journal then by all means fight them, but with correct accounting I am sure your agi is going to skyrocket and your taxes will suffer.

If you go to the casino every single day and $1000 with our favorite craps players hit and run strategy, but on the final day you go crazy and lose 364k. You are going to report a 364k win and a loss of 364k on schedule A. Now you are a 1% er and you get crushed at a higher tax bracket and your 50k a year income gets destroyed.


I suggest you begin keeping a gambling journal. It's not that hard.



I disagree with you on that. They want very specific info. If I go to the casino with buddies and have some drinks there is no way I am going to account for all the info needed.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
ChumpChange
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December 16th, 2018 at 9:08:04 AM permalink
That's like asking me what friends I brought to the ATM with me.
ChumpChange
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December 16th, 2018 at 9:14:21 AM permalink
I would consider what I won or lost on one casino visit or one gambling day among multiple casinos to be a gambling session, but if I was paying for beer, shows, and strippers I would definitely lose track.
SOOPOO
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odiousgambit
December 16th, 2018 at 9:15:45 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Quote: GWAE

Quote: MichaelBluejay

For the first part of your question, yes. I didn't call anyone a prick, or come anywhere close to anything that mean or hostile, and never would. Whether what I said qualifies as condescension is debatable, but even if it were, it's an order of magnitude away from calling someone a prick.

For the record, I apologize if anything I said came across as condescension, though I'll admit to being annoyed. People keep asking me questions that I addressed head-on in the article, suggesting they hadn't read it, even though I provided it for the express purpose of answering those kinds of questions. To me, that's kind of rude.

Interestingly, people either seem to hate me or love me, with no middle ground. This was posted on another forum in response to a post I made yesterday:



Yes, TurboTax definitely gets this wrong, and that's not the only thing. I often have to battle it to get the right figures input, in the right place (e.g., self-employed health insurance deduction for S Corporations). TurboTax on the whole is pretty lousy. For gambling income, I ignore the W-2G questions and manually enter an "other income" item that I label "Gambling winnings".

I'm all for complaining about the unfairness of the gambling tax. Someone posted an example of how losses can't effectively be deducted and asked whether he had that right, and whether it seemed fair. Yet my article has *an entire section* titled, in large flaming green letters, "Yes, it's not fair", which details the various unfair aspects, including exactly the one the poster asked about.


Quote: odiousgambit

Was that five $1200 W2s? All five times [fewer is worse] you lost it all back during the same session?

This is taxing my memory (no pun intended) (okay, maybe a little) since it was ten years ago, and I don't have my records handy. I don't remember exactly how many W-2Gs I got or what the amounts were, but I'm sure it was at least five, and I never had a winning session. I think I was wagering $50 or $100 a hand, in a supposedly AP comp situation, and my results on the game itself were way south of expectations.

It could have been talking $38k, I don't really remember. And yeah, it could have been a risk of being contacted, but I honestly wasn't worried. During the first Gulf War I stopped paying taxes in protest because I didn't want my tax money used to kill people. (It was a lot easier to protest back then when I didn't have any money.) I joined a group of other tax resisters (mostly Quaker ladies) who'd been resisting for years, and read books written by former IRS collections officers and the Quaker groups who aggregated the experiences of the resisters, so I felt pretty well versed on how the system worked. Many people seem to quake in fear of the IRS which I think is for the most part unfounded. There's this idea that if you pay your taxes a day late they're gonna be at your door with guns and handcuffs. In reality I've filed and paid taxes as much as 4.5 years late when I got behind, and in most cases when I've been late, even by years, I've barely heard from the IRS. If you do hear from them about an issue that you reported correctly then you just politely show them your evidence and the tax instructions and they'll almost certainly agree with you. If not you can appeal and you'll almost certainly win there. It's not a guarantee, sure, but I'm sure as hell not gonna pay extra tax that I don't really owe just because I fear that the IRS might make an inquiry.

Well, at the risk of getting called a prick again, this has already been done, and is mentioned in the article...twice. The case is Shollenberger v Commissioner.



I certainly did not read every post in this thread and I am not sure how terrible the questions are. I did indeed read your post.

I need to go back and read your article again as my reading comprehension sucks and I didn't realize that there would be this much discussion. If I am recalling correctly you are saying that if I gamble 1 time this year and get a w2g for 2k on my first spin, but before the session is over I lose 5k then I do not have to report any gambling at all on my taxes. However I will get a notice from the IRS that I owe taxes for the missing w2g. But you say we can fight with them and not actually have to pay that tax? If that is the case how likely is that going to trigger and audit? If you finally talk the IRS agent into that argument I would imagine they don't believe the was the case. Taking it a step further. Say you gambled a bunch throughout the year and have 20 w2gs but still never had a winning session. You shouldn't have to pay but I can't imagine the IRS ever believes you didn't have 1 winning session. Maybe I am not understanding any of this but it seems like very few people actually do understand it.


As long as you can back up the facts and circumstances of your gambling activities with a contemporaneous gambling journal, then you are correct in both examples. No gambling winnings need be reported, you will almost certainly be contacted by the IRS, and you will tell them that you follow the session accounting rules and had no winning sessions for the year. Backed up by your journal which shows only losing sessions.



To me the negative EV of possibly having to in any way "talk' to the IRS is huge. The cost in time and money of going through an audit outweighs almost any possible iffy deduction or saving I could ever get if it alerts the IRS. I think a casual gambler who will definitely be a yearly loser is unfairly screwed with his one or few W2Gs a year.
ChumpChange
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December 16th, 2018 at 9:29:58 AM permalink
I'll have to keep my blackjack double-up days down to a $4,000 buy-in. If I win 7 hands I'll be at $8,080+, if I lose 13 hands I'll be at $0.
Wizard
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December 16th, 2018 at 9:44:57 AM permalink
Since the IRS has not taken the trouble to define what a session is, can't I define it for myself as the entire calendar year?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
SOOPOO
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December 16th, 2018 at 9:47:18 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Since the IRS has not taken the trouble to define what a session is, can't I define it for myself as the entire calendar year?



Somewhere earlier someone wrote it just can't exceed a day. Right?
ChumpChange
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December 16th, 2018 at 9:56:25 AM permalink
Sessions are definitely what you won/lost on specific tables and machines in a specific casino on a single day. There's even more rules for poker tourneys and final rounds, and exactly what game & limits you were playing. Casinos will need to go chipless & cashless and give you an IRS approved reloadable gambling cash card and rewrite the gambling tax law from there.
Fleaswatter
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December 16th, 2018 at 9:57:50 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Somewhere earlier someone wrote it just can't exceed a day. Right?



Earlier in this thread I posted this:

In 2015, the IRS was proposing changes to the reporting requirements for Winnings From Bingo, Keno, and Slot Machines. In this proposed change, the IRS defined session as the following;
Quote:

Session.
For purposes of this section, a session of play begins when a patron places the first wager on a particular type of game at a gaming establishment and ends when the patron places his or her last wager on the same type of game before the end of the same calendar day at the same gaming establishment. For purposes of this section, the time is determined by the time zone of the location where the patron places the wager. A session of play is always determined with reference to a calendar day (24-hour period from 12 a.m. through 11:59 p.m.) and ends no later than the end of that calendar day. Nothing in this section prohibits a payor from terminating a session for any reason before the end of that calendar day.


These proposed IRS rules were never adopted but will give you an indication about the IRS's thinking with respect to "sessions".
new motto for the left: “I don't know if I received bad information, but I think I suspected there was more than there actually was,” (John Brennan Mar 25, 2019)
ChumpChange
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December 16th, 2018 at 10:10:55 AM permalink
IRS wants you to look at the clock on the wall in the casino and mark down what time you start and finish playing on a table or machine. I just say, eh, I spent 2.5 hours at the table. There are no clocks in the casinos.
7craps
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December 16th, 2018 at 10:15:55 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Since the IRS has not taken the trouble to define what a session is, can't I define it for myself as the entire calendar year?

but they have defined it.
They have taken the trouble to do just that.

MB web page shows where this can be found

it is just not written on the w2g - where it belongs or where on can find out where to go to get that info. what is on there now is useless.

it can be found in different publications.
not on one simple page
typical IRS
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
7craps
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December 16th, 2018 at 10:23:52 AM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

I would consider what I won or lost on one casino visit or one gambling day among multiple casinos to be a gambling session,

that is fine and true by your standards
but the tax courts have ruled way different as we now all now know.

follow their rules or they hammer you, because those are their rules everyone must follow.

sure, some say "fight them in court", ok, how much is that time worth to you?
line 21 w2g total and must itemize and not use standard deduction

play the game or cry about it
IRS will never change (even when they know they are wrong)
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
ChumpChange
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December 16th, 2018 at 10:34:48 AM permalink
Anybody paying estimated tax on their winnings by the fiscal quarter?
AcesAndEights
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December 16th, 2018 at 12:29:13 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Since the IRS has not taken the trouble to define what a session is, can't I define it for myself as the entire calendar year?


Doesn't pass the smell test.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
billryan
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December 16th, 2018 at 12:40:26 PM permalink
Evidently, my experiences with the IRS have gone smoother than many. I find the IRS is looking for the lowest hanging fruit and is looking to avoid a confrontation as much as you are. As long as there is no criminal activity, they are not much different from any collection agency. They have extraordinary power, but that doesn't matter if they don't use it.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AcesAndEights
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December 16th, 2018 at 4:49:10 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AcesAndEights

As long as you can back up the facts and circumstances of your gambling activities with a contemporaneous gambling journal, then you are correct in both examples. No gambling winnings need be reported, you will almost certainly be contacted by the IRS, and you will tell them that you follow the session accounting rules and had no winning sessions for the year. Backed up by your journal which shows only losing sessions.



To me the negative EV of possibly having to in any way "talk' to the IRS is huge. The cost in time and money of going through an audit outweighs almost any possible iffy deduction or saving I could ever get if it alerts the IRS. I think a casual gambler who will definitely be a yearly loser is unfairly screwed with his one or few W2Gs a year.


I do understand that point of view. To preface this I'll say I have never received a single W-2G, being mostly a table games player.

But if I did routinely get W-2Gs I think I would go the session route and follow the advice of Russell Fox and include a written statement explaining the discrepancy with my initial return. Probably no one will read it, but at least it will be in the record with my initial return so that it doesn't appear that one is making things up on the spot.

The process of getting a CP2000 honestly doesn't sound that bad, it's just a "paper" or "mail" audit. So they send you a letter, you send them essentially the same statement back again. Repeat a few times until they understand. That doesn't sound very painful and time or money consuming to me.

One AGI limit that is important to me is the ability to contribute to a Roth IRA. Gross gambling winnings (table games, no W-2Gs) pushed me over that income threshold some years ago and it pissed me off. So I would do everything I can to avoid that AGI threshold.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Wizard
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December 16th, 2018 at 5:19:29 PM permalink
I am planning to make a whole page about this topic, but for now I have run a big simulation of $0.25 denom 10-play 9-6 double double bonus and find that 1.32% of winnings would be $1200 or more. It's easy to see that 0,75% comes from dealt wins of 160x the total bet or more.

If you're in the 24% tax bracket, like I am, you would be giving up 1.32% * 24% = 0.33% in return. In video poker you have to fight for every 0.01% you can get, so 0.33% is huge.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
7craps
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December 16th, 2018 at 5:36:27 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

The process of getting a CP2000 honestly doesn't sound that bad, it's just a "paper" or "mail" audit. So they send you a letter, you send them essentially the same statement back again.
Repeat a few times until they understand.
That doesn't sound very painful and time or money consuming to me.

not how it goes
https://www.ustaxcourt.gov/ustcinop/opinionviewer.aspx?ID=11365

they want $$$, the IRS does and it is up to you to prove them wrong.
There are NO IRS documents like the w2g that specifically states one can use a 'session accounting' method.
there are tax court docs stating this and other people stating this, but I see not 1 doc directly from the IRS on this.

they look to be after $2k to $5k in the pdf linked to
it started in 2013 and court date was in 2017

Repeat a few times until they understand. LOL
stand in front of the Judge and see if Judge understands.

that paper is FUNNY!
"During 2013 petitioner husband engaged in a variety of recreational
gambling activities: he bet on college and professional sports, played slot
machines, and bought lottery tickets. That year petitioner husband won $5,060 on
slot machines at three different casinos.
"

this is a totally untrue statement the IRS placed before the tax court.
the FACTS show they received 3 w2gs for slot winnings.

pathetic
IRS will say anything to get your $$$
truth or lie
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
7craps
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December 16th, 2018 at 5:40:13 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I am planning to make a whole page about this topic,

that page could be very long.
good for you
many are behind you

just remember, the smallest tax rate in the US for amounts greater than $0 is 10%
that is the tax rate I am in due to my choices and not any choices from others.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
AcesAndEights
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December 16th, 2018 at 5:45:58 PM permalink
Quote: 7craps

Quote: AcesAndEights

The process of getting a CP2000 honestly doesn't sound that bad, it's just a "paper" or "mail" audit. So they send you a letter, you send them essentially the same statement back again.
Repeat a few times until they understand.
That doesn't sound very painful and time or money consuming to me.

not how it goes
https://www.ustaxcourt.gov/ustcinop/opinionviewer.aspx?ID=11365

they want $$$, the IRS does and it is up to you to prove them wrong.
There are NO IRS documents like the w2g that specifically states one can use a 'session accounting' method.
there are tax court docs stating this and other people stating this, but I see not 1 doc directly from the IRS on this.

they look to be after $2k to $5k in the pdf linked to
it started in 2013 and court date was in 2017

Repeat a few times until they understand. LOL
stand in front of the Judge and see if Judge understands.

that paper is FUNNY!
"During 2013 petitioner husband engaged in a variety of recreational
gambling activities: he bet on college and professional sports, played slot
machines, and bought lottery tickets. That year petitioner husband won $5,060 on
slot machines at three different casinos.
"

this is a totally untrue statement the IRS placed before the tax court.
the FACTS show they received 3 w2gs for slot winnings.

pathetic
IRS will say anything to get your $$$
truth or lie


I don't have any personal experience in this matter, but taking the opinion of at least one seasoned gambling tax pro, it's not hard to win on this point (session accounting).
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
billryan
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December 16th, 2018 at 6:10:57 PM permalink
Tax court is where you end up at the end of a very long road, if you are engaged in an honest business and have legitimate differences. It's not like the IRS audits you and gives you a summons to appear in tax court. From the time you get a notice of an audit or a request for more paperwork, you and your representatives will have many occasions to conference or to have hearings before you are summoned to Court. Someone who loses in tax court almost always was offered a much better settlement but chose to fight it.

Best to give a Grizzly part of your dinner rather than anger him and become the dinner.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Fleaswatter
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December 16th, 2018 at 6:15:53 PM permalink
Quote: 7craps

Quote: AcesAndEights

The process of getting a CP2000 honestly doesn't sound that bad, it's just a "paper" or "mail" audit. So they send you a letter, you send them essentially the same statement back again.
Repeat a few times until they understand.
That doesn't sound very painful and time or money consuming to me.

not how it goes
https://www.ustaxcourt.gov/ustcinop/opinionviewer.aspx?ID=11365

they want $$$, the IRS does and it is up to you to prove them wrong.
There are NO IRS documents like the w2g that specifically states one can use a 'session accounting' method.
there are tax court docs stating this and other people stating this, but I see not 1 doc directly from the IRS on this.

they look to be after $2k to $5k in the pdf linked to
it started in 2013 and court date was in 2017

Repeat a few times until they understand. LOL
stand in front of the Judge and see if Judge understands.

that paper is FUNNY!
"During 2013 petitioner husband engaged in a variety of recreational
gambling activities: he bet on college and professional sports, played slot
machines, and bought lottery tickets. That year petitioner husband won $5,060 on
slot machines at three different casinos.
"

this is a totally untrue statement the IRS placed before the tax court.
the FACTS show they received 3 w2gs for slot winnings.

pathetic
IRS will say anything to get your $$$
truth or lie



I really do not understand the point you are trying to make concerning the court case you have referenced.
new motto for the left: “I don't know if I received bad information, but I think I suspected there was more than there actually was,” (John Brennan Mar 25, 2019)
RS
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December 16th, 2018 at 6:44:37 PM permalink
To SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me), it seems like lots of the stuff is just kind of unnecessary. Let's say you do get audited, but your reporting has been honest for the most part. You might report something happened on June 6 instead of June 5, because you played after midnight, or you didn't keep track of the table # you played, or maybe you reported something for just being craps when it was really craps + blackjack.

What's gonna happen? I think it's going to be damn near impossible for them to prove your diary doesn't line up exactly with what you did.....and even then, so what? It's not like you're underreporting to hide money nor overreporting to launder money -- the net win or loss is still the same at the end of the year. They don't even see your diary unless you get audited (right?).
7craps
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December 16th, 2018 at 6:46:11 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I am planning to make a whole page about this topic, but for now

almost forgot. many States want money too from gambling winnings.

here is one

https://www.revenue.wi.gov/DOR%20Publications/1104gambling.pdf

"For taxpayers who gamble as a hobby, Wisconsin has adopted the federal "session" method of determining gains and
losses for tax reporting purposes. A “gambling session” is a period of continual play with only a short break in play
(restroom break, beverage break, table/machine change, game change, etc.).

The taxpayer determines the net amount of gains or losses for each gambling session. The taxpayer then reports the net
gains from all winning sessions for the year in Wisconsin taxable income if the winning sessions have a situs in Wisconsin.
If the taxpayer has losing sessions, the net losses from those sessions are not deductible for Wisconsin income tax
purposes.
"

where there is money, there are hands palm-up waiting for some of the cash
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
GWAE
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December 16th, 2018 at 7:12:58 PM permalink
Quote: RS

To SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me), it seems like lots of the stuff is just kind of unnecessary. Let's say you do get audited, but your reporting has been honest for the most part. You might report something happened on June 6 instead of June 5, because you played after midnight, or you didn't keep track of the table # you played, or maybe you reported something for just being craps when it was really craps + blackjack.

What's gonna happen? I think it's going to be damn near impossible for them to prove your diary doesn't line up exactly with what you did.....and even then, so what? It's not like you're underreporting to hide money nor overreporting to launder money -- the net win or loss is still the same at the end of the year. They don't even see your diary unless you get audited (right?).



and if they don't like your diary, or don't like that you didn't give them table numbers, or any other reason that they can come up with they can ignore all of your loses and make you pay full taxes on the w2g's.

and yes this is only for an audit. I read that they are so far behind and don't have enough people to do audits that it is hard to get audited right now.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
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December 16th, 2018 at 8:38:17 PM permalink
Quote: 7craps

that page could be very long.
good for you
many are behind you

just remember, the smallest tax rate in the US for amounts greater than $0 is 10%
that is the tax rate I am in due to my choices and not any choices from others.



Thank you for the encouragement. I should have some good stuff on 9-6 double double bonus tomorrow. That will be followed up by some other common games serious video poker players might play. I'll add comments on how much the return is lowered by tax bracket as well.

Is there anyone besides me who is prepared to make the pledge of no more video poker that generates a lot of W2Gs? What little play I do will be on mutli-play games that don't generate so many, even if at a lower return.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
RS
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December 16th, 2018 at 11:04:48 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

and if they don't like your diary, or don't like that you didn't give them table numbers, or any other reason that they can come up with they can ignore all of your loses and make you pay full taxes on the w2g's.

and yes this is only for an audit. I read that they are so far behind and don't have enough people to do audits that it is hard to get audited right now.


I’m certainly no science rocket, but I’d find it hard to believe they’d be able to force you to pay full taxes on all w2g’s without any deductions. Has anything like that even ever happened? Like, has a company been audited and the IRS is like, “Well, we don’t like the way you keep records, so we’re forcing you to pay taxes on your GROSS not NET income”? Supposedly you have to go to some crooked “tax court” anywho, and I’d think any reasonable person or judge(?) would be like, “Bruh, for real tho? He didn’t report the slot machine # nor witnesses with him and you finna make him pay ¢a$h money tax on all them w2g-a-rooskies? Nah man you dumb.”

Then again, s*** like this is why some people just say screw it, and don’t bother with reporting gambling income. Easier to just play stuff that’ll generate few w2g’s, pay the full amount on those, and be done with it (which would be way less in taxes than reporting the entire amount of profit).
ChumpChange
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December 17th, 2018 at 4:55:56 AM permalink
I'd like to go to the Cosmo and turn $1,000 into $300,000 on the slot machines in one week. Go big or go home.
MaxPen
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December 17th, 2018 at 5:08:22 AM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

I'd like to go to the Cosmo and turn $1,000 into $300,000 on the slot machines in one week. Go big or go home.



I will take action that you will be going home.
empty handed
billryan
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December 17th, 2018 at 5:41:10 AM permalink
I'm always amazed how fear drives so many people. If you think the IRS is scary, try dealing with state Sales Tax people. In NY, their idea of negotiating with delinquency is to shut you down, hand you a ridiculously inflated estimated bill , give you a hearing 90 days out and offer a " compromise" to get you back in business.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ChumpChange
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December 17th, 2018 at 5:41:25 AM permalink
Quote: 7craps

almost forgot. many States want money too from gambling winnings.

here is one

https://www.revenue.wi.gov/DOR%20Publications/1104gambling.pdf

"For taxpayers who gamble as a hobby, Wisconsin has adopted the federal "session" method of determining gains and
losses for tax reporting purposes. A “gambling session” is a period of continual play with only a short break in play
(restroom break, beverage break, table/machine change, game change, etc.).

The taxpayer determines the net amount of gains or losses for each gambling session. The taxpayer then reports the net
gains from all winning sessions for the year in Wisconsin taxable income if the winning sessions have a situs in Wisconsin.
If the taxpayer has losing sessions, the net losses from those sessions are not deductible for Wisconsin income tax
purposes.
"

where there is money, there are hands palm-up waiting for some of the cash



Gambling sessions are untenable in those states. Better stick to strictly W-2G's there.

Here's the 2019 W-2G form pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2g.pdf

I googled NYS gambling losses and got to the FAQ page at the NYS Dept. of Taxation & Finance and they've got absolutely nothing.
"Individual Taxpayer Answer Center (Current Tax Year)
We are in the process of updating the frequently asked questions for the upcoming tax season. Please check back after January 1st, 2019."

New York has a limitation on itemized deductions. If your AGI is over $500,000, you lose 50% of your itemized deductions (including gambling losses). You begin to lose itemized deductions at an AGI of $100,000.

Bad States for Gamblers (2012) http://www.taxabletalk.com/2012/10/22/bad-states-for-gamblers/
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Dec 17, 2018
speedycrap
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December 17th, 2018 at 3:05:19 PM permalink
How man'y years can IRS go back please?
DRich
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December 17th, 2018 at 3:11:50 PM permalink
Quote: speedycrap

How man'y years can IRS go back please?



According to IRS.GOV

How far back can the IRS go to audit my return?
Generally, the IRS can include returns filed within the last three years in an audit. If we identify a substantial error, we may add additional years. We usually don’t go back more than the last six years.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
billryan
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December 17th, 2018 at 3:22:53 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

According to IRS.GOV

How far back can the IRS go to audit my return?
Generally, the IRS can include returns filed within the last three years in an audit. If we identify a substantial error, we may add additional years. We usually don’t go back more than the last six years.




If they pursue a criminal investigation concerning unreported income, I don't believe there is any Statute of Limitations. That's not something your average taxpayer needs to worry about, but if you were moving kilos of coke in the 1980s, I don't think you are safe yet.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
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December 17th, 2018 at 3:24:47 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

If they pursue a criminal investigation concerning unreported income, I don't believe there is any Statute of Limitations. That's not something your average taxpayer needs to worry about, but if you were moving kilos of coke in the 1980s, I don't think you are safe yet.



Yeesh. What if it was Pepsi?
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lilredrooster
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December 17th, 2018 at 3:37:19 PM permalink
I believe that because for so many gamblers the record keeping is so poor, the knowledge of how to correctly file is so limited and the ability to prove or disprove any accounting of wins or losses would be so very difficult (for the IRS I mean) that they basically just accept what has been declared in the vast majority of returns.

Unless they think they can get a big fish.

But if they suspect somebody might have incorrectly filed and owes them a few thousand or so I don't think they're very interested.

Think they might be owed $50K - yeah, then they're interested.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
ChumpChange
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December 17th, 2018 at 3:40:14 PM permalink
I'm going to have to make all my buy-ins and cash-outs at amounts that exceed $10,000 so the CTR form can say exactly what I've won or lost. I don't get a copy of that, so I still couldn't follow along.
billryan
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December 17th, 2018 at 3:40:46 PM permalink
Thanks to the GOP, the IRS's budget for auditing is a pittance compared to what it was. It's almost like some of them might have something to hide.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
cf1984
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December 17th, 2018 at 3:54:30 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thank you for the encouragement. I should have some good stuff on 9-6 double double bonus tomorrow. That will be followed up by some other common games serious video poker players might play. I'll add comments on how much the return is lowered by tax bracket as well.

Is there anyone besides me who is prepared to make the pledge of no more video poker that generates a lot of W2Gs? What little play I do will be on mutli-play games that don't generate so many, even if at a lower return.



I have definitely scaled back due to this. Used to play some $1 multi-line DDB but no more. Switched to 10 play quarter Bonus instead of 10 play quarter DDB. With Bonus, only W2G would be multiple royals. Had never had a multiple royal in many years on the 10 plays I play maybe 5-10 days per year. This year, of course, I have now drawn a double royal FOUR TIMES for 8k in W2G!

Also, if you're playing 10 play DDB and want to avoid the W2G, when dealt 2-4 with no kicker it may be better to NOT draw for a kicker. If you use the W2G total method, hitting for $1200 may net you less than just holding all cards for $1000. Average would be to draw about 2.5 kickers and I figure you'd need to hit 4 to make it worthwhile, IF you use W2G method. I know there's been lots of debate on W2G v session methods but I know people who do either method and have never had an issue. Consistency is probably the key once you start.

Another option to play is quarter Spin Poker with just three lines. Only chance for multiple royals would be dealt since its just once deck and can't draw more than one royal. If you beat the 650,000 to one odds, oh well.

I'm going to try harder to avoid W2G's next year. They have taken the fun out of the game completely with the tax rules. Been a loser the last couple of years and it will cost me tax dollars just to play whether using session or W2G method. Would think the casino industry would be pushing for changes but bigger fish to fry in today's political world.
Last edited by: cf1984 on Dec 17, 2018
beachbumbabs
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December 17th, 2018 at 4:00:17 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

I'm going to have to make all my buy-ins and cash-outs at amounts that exceed $10,000 so the CTR form can say exactly what I've won or lost. I don't get a copy of that, so I still couldn't follow along.



I would think a two-sided card in your wallet, and your smart phone would be admissible documentation. Spread your br with a card that says "starting br", take a picture and save it. When you're done playing, flip the card over where it says "ending br" and shoot that with the money spread out.

Those will have the date and time, along with whatever log you're making for the games you play. Better even might be chip racks/stacks that are countable if you're on tables, or TITOs before you cash in.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
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