Honest opinion on Bob Dancer?

As many others on here I have met Bob Dancer and know his real name which I would never disclose. I believe most of his claims and respect him for the time and effort he has put into his craft.

Quote: DRich

As many others on here I have met Bob Dancer and know his real name which I would never disclose. I believe most of his claims and respect him for the time and effort he has put into his craft.

In a way this is an apple and oranges kinda thing. Look at the poker greats who have helped so many people with their game by writing books and sharing their secrets of success. Nobody gets mad at them, they have helped the game. Nobody gets mad at Doyle Brunson for writing Super Systems. But unfortunately, video poker is kinda different and many people take the attitude that Bob Dancer has "caused" the decline of our game. They blame him for all the downgrades. Bob Dancer is every bit as intelligent as the best poker players, and he IS the star of video poker, yet he is the target of many players' gripes. I think that is unfair, but kinda inevitable. And how many players say they wish Bob Dancer would not write books, but that's AFTER they themselves have benefitted from his books. Bob is darned if he does and darned if he doesn't. And ironic, he has hurt his own ability to play in different casinos. No casino no-mails Doyle Brunson. Apples and oranges, kinda. But give Bob credit, he has turned out great products and information, and I'm sure worked very hard at the game. And I think some of his dumb jokes are funny.

Quote: bobbartop

In a way this is an apple and oranges kinda thing. Look at the poker greats who have helped so many people with their game by writing books and sharing their secrets of success. Nobody gets mad at them, they have helped the game. Nobody gets mad at Doyle Brunson for writing Super Systems. But unfortunately, video poker is kinda different and many people take the attitude that Bob Dancer has "caused" the decline of our game. They blame him for all the downgrades. Bob Dancer is every bit as intelligent as the best poker players, and he IS the star of video poker, yet he is the target of many players' gripes. I think that is unfair, but kinda inevitable. And how many players say they wish Bob Dancer would not write books, but that's AFTER they themselves have benefitted from his books. Bob is darned if he does and darned if he doesn't. And ironic, he has hurt his own ability to play in different casinos. No casino no-mails Doyle Brunson. Apples and oranges, kinda. But give Bob credit, he has turned out great products and information, and I'm sure worked very hard at the game. And I think some of his dumb jokes are funny.

Yeah, but he really needs to change that cornball music on the radio show.

Quote: MaxPen

Yeah, but he really needs to change that cornball music on the radio show.

Seriously, Max? Pink Floyd's "Money"? That's perfect. lol

C'mon, what's this really all about? You're just mad because he stepped on your foot when you were at one of those square dancing shindigs.

Quote: bobbartop

And how many players say they wish Bob Dancer would not write books, but that's AFTER they themselves have benefitted from his books.

I have yet to ever read any AP book(I can see it coming, someone crosses out AP).

There's no denying books and other information given out publicly cost Advantage Players a significant amount of money.

There's also no denying its helped people get into the business and make money. Unfortunately, that information creates a situation were there's not enough to go around for everyone and your yearly income get to cut down drastically on certain things. Now everyone has to put in more hours, do more traveling it's been way more time finding new plays to replace the ones they have lost. The information doesn't just educate Advantage players it the educates the casino industry.

It is, what it is, no matter what the overall cost or what anyone says people are still going to write books and information is still going to be given out publicly.

I can't count the number of people who have come to me after and said, "you were right, it was a very bad idea put that or any information out there, I regret it."

At the beginning they don't quite get it and understand how just how bad TMI affects Advantage Players.
Most of them are just starting out and they don't think it's a big deal since they are just messing around with Advantage Play wanting to make few shekels here perhaps even just for some entertainment not realizing the potential. The money isn't much so they get more enjoyment writing sharing their knowledge, information and stories. Once they start to advance or stubble on to something juicy and the money becomes more serious they start to notice the significant effect the competition and educating the casinos/ Darksiders has on them. There's people on this forum that probably never imagined they would/could actually quit their good job and go full-time AP, yet it's happened a number of times. That could be you, so be careful with what information you put out there publicly.

Another thing people don't quite understand... there are a lot of foolish people out there who only care about the here and now and this very moment. These kind of people have no discretion and they will do incredibly obvious stupid things that will bring attention to plays and get them shut down super quick. These people might as well just come into the casino with a big sign saying, "hey, I'm an Advantage player your promotions team f***** up really bad and I'm here to take your money. Oftentimes, that brings attention to everyone else for doing everything they could to make the play last and stay low key. Yes, there's going to be times when there's a big promotion and it's very obvious to the casino what's going on, especially, when people are sitting there firing and jackpots are going off left and right. Not necessarily talking about that type of situation talking about situations where the casino has no clue what's going on and the situation isn't obvious.

If I can just get a few people here and there to think before they post and spread things publicly, I'll take it. I know there's been a few people who thought twice about posting something even if they never planned on playing it themselves and it worked out well for them by not doing so and taking it to private messages.
My advice...
If you don't know if something's good or you have a question about a play, send a private message to someone you think might know, or put up a post asking for someone to private message you about an advantage play without giving any details.

Quote: bobbartop

Seriously, Max? Pink Floyd's "Money"? That's perfect. lol

C'mon, what's this really all about? You're just mad because he stepped on your foot when you were at one of those square dancing shindigs.

For those that don't know, I believe Rob Singer made his screen name directed at Bob Dancer as a jab.
It's kind of funny if you think about it, but most people think the joke's on him.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have yet to ever read any AP book(I can see it coming, someone crosses out AP).

There's no denying books and other information given out publicly cost Advantage Players a significant amount of money.

There's also no denying its helped people get into the business and make money. Unfortunately, that information creates a situation were there's not enough to go around for everyone and your yearly income get to cut down drastically on certain things. Now everyone has to put in more hours, do more traveling it's been way more time finding new plays to replace the ones they have lost. The information doesn't just educate Advantage players it the educates the casino industry.

It is, what it is, no matter what the overall cost or what anyone says people are still going to write books and information is still going to be given out publicly.

I can't count the number of people who have come to me after and said, "you were right, it was a very bad idea put that or any information out there, I regret it."

At the beginning they don't quite get it and understand how just how bad TMI affects Advantage Players.
Most of them are just starting out and they don't think it's a big deal since they are just messing around with Advantage Play wanting to make few shekels here perhaps even just for some entertainment not realizing the potential. The money isn't much so they get more enjoyment writing sharing their knowledge, information and stories. Once they start to advance or stubble on to something juicy and the money becomes more serious they start to notice the significant effect the competition and educating the casinos/ Darksiders has on them. There's people on this forum that probably never imagined they would/could actually quit their good job and go full-time AP, yet it's happened a number of times. That could be you, so be careful with what information you put out there publicly.

Another thing people don't quite understand... there are a lot of foolish people out there who only care about the here and now and this very moment. These kind of people have no discretion and they will do incredibly obvious stupid things that will bring attention to plays and get them shut down super quick. These people might as well just come into the casino with a big sign saying, "hey, I'm an Advantage player your promotions team f***** up really bad and I'm here to take your money. Oftentimes, that brings attention to everyone else for doing everything they could to make the play last and stay low key. Yes, there's going to be times when there's a big promotion and it's very obvious to the casino what's going on, especially, when people are sitting there firing and jackpots are going off left and right. Not necessarily talking about that type of situation talking about situations where the casino has no clue what's going on and the situation isn't obvious.

If I can just get a few people here and there to think before they post and spread things publicly, I'll take it. I know there's been a few people who thought twice about posting something even if they never planned on playing it themselves and it worked out well for them by not doing so and taking it to private messages.
My advice...
If you don't know if something's good or you have a question about a play, send a private message to someone you think might know, or put up a post asking for someone to private message you about an advantage play without giving any details.

Well, I certainly can't argue with anything you just said, Axel. For one thing, I wouldn't dare. You're the man. Geez, hardly a day goes by that I'm not sitting here cussing to myself about what some fckg idiot posts on vpfree. I'm thinking, stfu already, especially if it's a play that's close to me that I've already known about and discovered by myself and exploited by myself. Too much information, why did they even start vpfree? Who's brilliant idea?

I don't know what to say. I'm sure of one thing, if I was one of the people, (and I know they're out there), who discovered things by myself over 30 years ago and then watched all the "bob dancers" and "jean scotts" and "skip hughes", etc., etc., come along and do their thing, I'd be pretty pissed off. And they all may be very nice people, but I'd still be mad at those who let the cat out of the bag. (and I like cats) I just don't know what to say. If it hadn't been them, it would have been someone else probably. It's the way of the world. Heck, I know there were people who figured out video poker WAAAY before everyone even had a desktop computer on their desk. How do THEY feel? lol

I am a nobody. I know that. And I don't want to be a somebody. But honestly, there's probably been a few times where I opened my big fat mouth when I shouldn't have. I dunno. You can't make time go backwards. If I could, my hair would still be brown.

Quote: AxelWolf

For those that don't know, I believe Rob Singer made his screen name directed at Bob Dancer as a jab.
It's kind of funny if you think about it, but most people think the joke's on him.

You're right, that is funny. I didn't know that.

Quote: bobbartop

You're right, that is funny. I didn't know that.

Skip started VP free. I remember being annoyed in the mid-90s especially, when certain team employees were posting up about 103% all American poker in Kansas City and various other things.

It's been ages since I've even looked at VP free. It might just drive me bonkers. I guess it's a good thing I can't ever seem to navigate through it very well which adds to one of the reasons I don't read it. I'm fairly certain I couldn't even remember my password or what Yahoo account I use. I need less distraction, not more.

With that being said, feel free to send me a link to anything I might find interesting or potentially annoying.

Quote: AxelWolf

especially, when certain team employees were posting up about 103% all American poker in Kansas City

Omg, I think I wanna puke.

Quote: AxelWolf

Skip started VP free.

I didn't even know that. See? I'm still a dummy. I've been playing a few years and I'm still a dummy.

Speaking of Skip, coincidence, just maybe two weeks ago I was going through a hard drive from a computer in my closet that was full of dust and just sitting there for years. I found a half dozen copies of some old "vp player" magazine in pdf files, I think it was Skip's, and I don't even remember how or where I got them from.

As I'm just thinking now, maybe it would have been better if someone had put together a bunch of good info like that and charged a couple thousand dollars for the book. I know there are books like that, not naming any, and people do pay the price. And if someone pays a couple thousand dollars for a book, they're not going to open their mouth to even tell their own grandmother for free.

If interested in real name do as I did. Enter companies owned by —- corporations reports are public info. Look at report You can easily deduct by seeing the two names. Thus I have not invaded anyone’s privacy or pissed of one of his friends who defend him.
In fairness there are many people in video poker sales No one should be singling out him. I will stand by my comment these companies and certain individuals have destroyed the game.

Quote: Scubadiver

No one should be singling out him. I will stand by my comment these companies and certain individuals have destroyed the game.

You need to learn to adapt. For those who think video poker was dead once they start killing all the pay tables are dead wrong. Video poker actually got better for people who adapted. Video poker didn't get better because the pay tables got worse, it had nothing to do with that, it just so happened that the industry norm was changing as the good pay tables were dying out. Sure, it would be nice to have the things that were killed by TMI remain on top of chang. It would also be nice if all the casinos would just make a deal with me and others and cut us a check not to play anymore. Now I just got to figure out what that number would be for me to take the deal.



Someone can certainly debate me on this, but I noticed once all the multi-line video poker games proliferated that the promotions drastically got worse. The casinos no longer wanted to have double four of a kind and special hand promotions, double Royal promotions, Bingo Card promotions etc. I'm not saying they didn't come along, but I noticed a drastic drop in good promotions like that in a very short period of time after the multi lines at the casinos.
I can't say that I blame the casinos since all promotions like that suddenly become significantly more valuable to an advantage player and it created a situation where promotional funds run out many times faster while causing casinos way more work in a less time. Prayers that good for a casino to disallow multi-line games for promotions or discourage people from playing multi-line games if they only allow it on bottom line only.

Who??

Quote: AxelWolf

You need to learn to adapt. For those who think video poker was dead once they start killing all the pay tables are dead wrong. Video poker actually got better for people who adapted. Video poker didn't get better because the pay tables got worse, it had nothing to do with that, it just so happened that the industry norm was changing as the good pay tables were dying out. Sure, it would be nice to have the things that were killed by TMI remain on top of chang. It would also be nice if all the casinos would just make a deal with me and others and cut us a check not to play anymore. Now I just got to figure out what that number would be for me to take the deal.



Someone can certainly debate me on this, but I noticed once all the multi-line video poker games proliferated that the promotions drastically got worse. The casinos no longer wanted to have double four of a kind and special hand promotions, double Royal promotions, Bingo Card promotions etc. I'm not saying they didn't come along, but I noticed a drastic drop in good promotions like that in a very short period of time after the multi lines at the casinos.
I can't say that I blame the casinos since all promotions like that suddenly become significantly more valuable to an advantage player and it created a situation where promotional funds run out many times faster while causing casinos way more work in a less time. Prayers that good for a casino to disallow multi-line games for promotions or discourage people from playing multi-line games if they only allow it on bottom line only.

Complaining is so much easier than adapting.

Video poker has changed from an advantage game to an entertainment game. Some small pockets of profit still exist. The majority of us pay to play. My goal is to pay a fair price for my entertainment. The information I learned from Bob Dancer helps me do this. I find his VPW software extremely useful. It seems every time I go to the casino, they have changed the odds. I use his software to tell me what changes need to be made. Without his help, I would not have paid attention to comps and incentives. Without those, my cost to play would be much higher.

The casinos want me to believe I can beat them. Some players do. I don't. That doesn't mean Bob Dancer and the casinos are working against me. It means they are operating a commercial business. I know I am going to pay to play and I don't mind as long as I can control the amount.

I've always found it funny how Ed Thorp never gets vilified for Beat the Dealer. I've never once heard a negative thing about the man or his work. Yet, people were counting before his book came out. I'm sure Beat the Dealer was not good for them.

I believe the world would be a better place with unfettered access to truthful information. I think Bob Dancer and Ed Thorp would agree.

Quote: Wizard

I've always found it funny how Ed Thorp never gets vilified for Beat the Dealer. I've never once heard a negative thing about the man or his work. Yet, people were counting before his book came out. I'm sure Beat the Dealer was not good for them.

I believe the world would be a better place with unfettered access to truthful information. I think Bob Dancer and Ed Thorp would agree.

Interesting point, indeed.

Regarding "unfettered access to truthful information", it made me think of so many things that I'm not supposed to talk about now that we have the "new rule".

Good post, Wiz.

Quote: Wizard

I believe the world would be a better place with unfettered access to truthful information. .

Said the guy who profits from putting out information "for free".

When the world pays your bills and your better than average lifestyle let me know.

Would you have done all this work totally anonymously for zero potential profits?

What if every time you put up new information you lost money?
That's what happens to advantage players. TMI = less long term overall profits for advantage players.

In the end, it comes down to where you want the money to flow. Some to the Advantage players or all to the casinos.

p.s. The world would be a better place without casinos.

Quote: AxelWolf

p.s. The world would be a better place without casinos.

I disagree. Casinos provide entertainment. They are no different than golf courses, bowling alleys and movie theaters. They give people an escape and a place to spend quality time with others. All the negative consequences that come out of casinos are a result of players believing the casino is there to make them a profit. That is what the casino wants you to believe and why they spend millions of dollars to market the idea.

The casino is a business. Bob Dancer is a business. This website is a business. If they all didn't make a profit, they wouldn't exist. There is no one forcing anyone to overpay for casino entertainment. You choose the amount of your wagers and the time to invest. If you don't get your money's worth, it's not the fault of anyone else.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I disagree. Casinos provide entertainment. They are no different than golf courses, bowling alleys and movie theaters. They give people an escape and a place to spend quality time with others. All the negative consequences that come out of casinos are a result of players believing the casino is there to make them a profit. That is what the casino wants you to believe and why they spend millions of dollars to market the idea.

The casino is a business. Bob Dancer is a business. This website is a business. If they all didn't make a profit, they wouldn't exist. There is no one forcing anyone to overpay for casino entertainment. You choose the amount of your wagers and the time to invest. If you don't get your money's worth, it's not the fault of anyone else.

A comparison of businesses:

DISNEYLAND:

Come to the happiest place on Earth! Fun all day long!

Host: "Sir, were you happy today?"
Patron: "Yes, I was. I was happy every day for the last 12 days of my trip"
Host: "Fantastic! Glad to have delivered on our promise. Please come back. We would love to have you."

CASINOS:

Come to the Winners circle! Winners all day long!

Host: "Sir, did you win today"
Patron: "Yes, I did. I won every day for the last 12 days of my trip."
Host: "SECURITY, SECURITY. Sir, I am going to have to ask you to leave. I am also rescinding all offers we generously made you including ones you clearly earned with your hard earned cash. Security, escort this person down to the basement level and a secure room where we can violate his civil rights"

A one day base price ticket to Disney World is $116.09-$169.34 per person plus food, drinks and whatever else you wish to purchase. One night at the Contemporary Resort in Disney World is $860 a night. What are the odds they will pay you? Zero.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

A one day base price ticket to Disney World is $116.09-$169.34 per person plus food, drinks and whatever else you wish to purchase. One night at the Contemporary Resort in Disney World is $860 a night. What are the odds they will pay you? Zero.

thats not the point.

the point is untruthful advertising.

Disney offers a happy place. when you are actually happy they welcome you back.

Casinos offer a place to win money. when you actually win money they DO NOT welcome you back

(casinos never advertise they are where you will LOSE money, regardless of whether you feel consumers should know better)

The most I ever won in a casino in one day was $14,000. I have never been banned from a casino. I am not a long term winner, so there decision was a good one. I have always wondered how an AP keeps this from happening? Do they wear a disguise? How do they keep finding casinos that will pay them to play?

Quote: darkoz

thats not the point.

the point is untruthful advertising.

Disney offers a happy place. when you are actually happy they welcome you back.

Casinos offer a place to win money. when you actually win money they DO NOT welcome you back

(casinos never advertise they are where you will LOSE money, regardless of whether you feel consumers should know better)

OF COURSE THEY WELCOME YOU BACK! Just not for free! I know this may shock you, but they have hotel rooms that PEOPLE PAY TO STAY IN! They may not give you free play! Any consumer that doesn't understand that they may lose money in a casino deserves no sympathy. Any consumer that doesn't understand that a casino (or movie theater, or restaurant, or department store, or gambling website) has as it's objective to make a profit I have no sympathy for.

You think McDonalds should only have obese people on their advertisements?
You think Toyota should show Prius crash victims compared to HumVee crash victims?
How about our state lottery advertisements?

Quote: SingleCoinVP

The most I ever won in a casino in one day was $14,000. I have never been banned from a casino. I am not a long term winner, so there decision was a good one. I have always wondered how an AP keeps this from happening? Do they wear a disguise? How do they keep finding casinos that will pay them to play?

in some ways its easier than you think

Quote: SOOPOO

OF COURSE THEY WELCOME YOU BACK! Just not for free! I know this may shock you, but they have hotel rooms that PEOPLE PAY TO STAY IN! They may not give you free play! Any consumer that doesn't understand that they may lose money in a casino deserves no sympathy. Any consumer that doesn't understand that a casino (or movie theater, or restaurant, or department store, or gambling website) has as it's objective to make a profit I have no sympathy for.

You think McDonalds should only have obese people on their advertisements?
You think Toyota should show Prius crash victims compared to HumVee crash victims?
How about our state lottery advertisements?

a better example would be drug companies that advertise how their medications will make you feel better.

Note they are required to give a long speech about the risks.

Disney will soon offer the Land Of Hard Knocks.

Casinos offer opportunities mainly to average players. Some showmen are resting in real laurels and some are resting on imaginary ones. The seminars/shows have to be entertaining rather than precisely truthful.

Some seminars/shows are more nostalgia and wishful thinking than others.

In the Southeast, it's tough to find any VP game with less than a 1% house edge these days. The best single line game we have is 98.9% Deuces Wild or 7/5 Bonus Poker. Most of those games start at $5 a coin. Comps are in house credit only. This makes the game more about limiting losses than long term wins. It wasn't always this way. Before Katrina and the financial crisis, things were different.

I'm not complaining. My wife and I manage to play the game without serious financial damage. Playing mostly quarter VP we get comped rooms at any Florida casino, Biloxi and Cherokee. Our points pay for drinks and food as long as we eat modestly. I won $800 from a drawing last month. Last week we played in Murphy NC. In the last 10 minutes, I switched to dollar DW and hit a $1,000 quad deuce. I know this seems trivial to some of you. It works for us.