Neutrino
Neutrino
Joined: Feb 20, 2014
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October 9th, 2015 at 11:50:37 PM permalink
Ok, first let me declare that I am on the same side as most of you readers here. I'm an AP and I'm all for high RTP, +EV opportunities etc. But today I just want to play devil's advocate a little to understand RTP better in a practical sense.

My fundamental question of "why?" makes an assumption that casinos have the right to set the pay table (hence theoretical RTP) at whatever the want. If this is wrong then do let me know as that means my entire question will be in valid. Although I'm guessing the laws probably won't allow a 20% RTP but meantime doesn't force the casinos to always give 9/6 on JOB.

So then, my assumption is that, casinos are in no way obligated to give us more than 100% RTP or any +EV for that matter. But yet, they do, for some reason, especially in Vegas. Having more than 100% RTP makes them extremely vulnerable to APs.

I took a trip to Sweden earlier this year. While I was there I checked out a few major casinos in Stockholm. I was really surprised to see the video poker pay tables maxing at 95%. All the blackjack tables there are Continues Shufflers with poor rules as well.

So my question is, if these Swedish casinos seem to do quite well while offering horrible RTP, well, why offer any better then? Even without comparing to Sweden, my hometown casinos have 97-98% RTP which is shit. America's 2nd largest Gambling City, AC, also has pretty shitty video poker pay tables from what I know.

All this analysis seems to point to that Vegas has no reason to offer good pay tables on video poker. And yet, there is one reason to offer bad ones - more money for the casino. Can the average tourist even feel the difference between 97% RTP and 101% RTP anyway? Can APs even feel it in a short session for that matter?

So the conclusion - either I'm missing something or Vegas Casino managers are making a very bad decision that is costing them a lot of money.

I assume I'm missing something.

So fill me in.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
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October 10th, 2015 at 12:01:43 AM permalink
Simple economics. Lots of casinos in vegas. Competition for customers.
Neutrino
Neutrino
Joined: Feb 20, 2014
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October 10th, 2015 at 12:08:45 AM permalink
Yet Slots are still 80-85% And nobody seems to mind setting it any higher for "competition for customers"?
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
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October 10th, 2015 at 12:15:47 AM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

Yet Slots are still 80-85% And nobody seems to mind setting it any higher for "competition for customers"?



Slot players aren't as picky about taking their business elsewhere.
RS
RS
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
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October 10th, 2015 at 2:05:39 AM permalink
(Penny) slot players will play just about anything and everything. Slots are unknown as far as their returns (unless you figure it out yourself, which 99.999% of players do not do).

Video poker machines are easy to figure out, all you need to do is look at the paytable and you know what the return is....well, assuming you know 9/6 JOB is 99.54%, 8/5 BP is 99.17%, and whenever a pay goes down it hurts and if it goes up it helps. And from there, it's very easy to figure out why a local would rather play at stations property than a caesars property when it comes to video poker.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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October 10th, 2015 at 2:27:41 AM permalink
Because you can make horrible mistakes on VP.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Dieter
Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
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October 10th, 2015 at 4:45:13 AM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

My fundamental question of "why?" makes an assumption that casinos have the right to set the pay table (hence theoretical RTP) at whatever the want.




Pretty sure that is not the case. There are likely gaming commission rules that specify a minimum theoretical return. Some jurisdictions will have a maximum theoretical return, too.
May the cards fall in your favor.
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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October 10th, 2015 at 5:29:46 AM permalink
VP players are not typical slot players. It's a slightly different market. Competition is fairly high.
And plenty of people make mistakes costing them .5 to 1%.
People generally are playing with more money per pull and the pull lasts shorter.
3-5% on the strip for most VP players at $1.25 is most typical. At 400 pulls per hour, that's $500 / hour x 3-5% = $15 - $25/hour.

A game like $20 PGP at 30 hands per hour is about $12/hour.
$10 BJ at 100 hands an hour is about $10 / hour
Penny slots at 300 pulls an hour at $1/shot at 7-10% = $21 - $30 / hour.

It's all in line.

0 - 1% machine are few and far between, especially on the strip and in places lacking competition or where competitors are colluding.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
rsactuary
rsactuary
Joined: Sep 6, 2014
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October 10th, 2015 at 6:22:40 AM permalink
I always theorized that especially for bartop VP, since the bar has to be there anyways, they might as well make SOME money off of it, and were ok with a higher RTP because of that.
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
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October 10th, 2015 at 6:59:51 AM permalink
Most jurisdictions in the U.S. have regs requiring 75%-80% minimum return to players (yet most lotteries are 50-60%).

Video poker has been getting tighter and will continue to.
Order from chaos

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