edhou1
edhou1
Joined: Jun 5, 2010
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June 5th, 2010 at 1:59:40 AM permalink
I've been playing a lot of 25cent FPDW in LV and 25 cent/1$ 9/6 JOB in AC recently (and yay, I just got my first 2 royal flushes ever after two marathon 8 hour nonstop playing sessions in 25c JOB respectively with $500 starting bankrolls) and I've been noticing a weird trend happening recently in these games- getting the same card again after you discard it!

For example, let's say you have four spades initially and a 3 of diamonds. I discard that 3 of diamonds to shoot for the flush, and the replacement card is- you guessed it - the 3 of diamonds again. (and yes, I am sure that I discarded the card!)

It *appears* , especially whenever I keep 4 and discard 1, the probability of me getting the same card that I discarded initially is higher than expected (for example, I had a 10 hand sequence where I had 3 scenarios where I held 4 to a flush, and each time I got the SAME discard card back after the draw.), but it could be all a "fluke" where I simply remembered those hands out of frustration/selective memory.

So, I have 3 questions
a) is it accepted rules/knowledge in the VP world that the discarded cards (up to all 5 as applicable) are NOT removed and all become available as replacement cards?
I have read some strategy comments on the wizardofodds site that seem to indicate that the replacement cards typically do not overlap with the initial 1st five cards dealt?

b) anyone notice any similar trends of this happening in a NON-RANDOM nature? Possible RNG feature? The VP poker machines looked legit (not paytabs, otherwise played normally, in well established casinos in Vegas and AC)

c) (related to (a)) - are all the expected analysis/strategies based on (a) being true (i.e. discard cards are not removed and can come back as replacements)?

Thanks for any insights. I'm not sure I notice this happening as much when I discard 2,3,4 or 5 cards, but again, it could be selective memory as one is not as inclined to remember non winning replacement cards in those scenarios.
JB
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JB
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June 5th, 2010 at 2:58:23 AM permalink
Discards should NOT return on the draw. If that's happening, the machine is paying out at a much lower rate than it would appear to be.

Was this a standard IGT or Bally video poker machine? If so, I'm skeptical that you received the exact same card on the draw that you discarded. The most likely explanations are that you either received the card of the same rank and color, but different suit (for example, you discarded the 3 of diamonds and received the 3 of hearts), or you accidentally held the card before hitting the Draw button.

Were you consuming alcohol (or anything else) during your 8-hour sessions, and/or were you physically tired?

I would recommend trying to catch it on camera or video if possible.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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June 5th, 2010 at 10:01:40 AM permalink
Marathon eight hour session?
Even those little white mice pressing a lever to gain a pellet of food or a puff of cigarette smoke need a rest now and then. Sheer repetitive button pressing for that long would eventually lead to fatigue induced errors. Yet, it just might in fact be happening. Keep that video camera rolling!
Wizard
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Wizard
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June 5th, 2010 at 10:24:52 AM permalink
Maybe he means the same card in rank only. If so, this sounds like the Rob Singer theory.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
edhou1
edhou1
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June 5th, 2010 at 10:38:38 AM permalink
thanks for the replies! I'm confident that it was same rank and the same suit, although obviously I don't have proof at this time. The reason I'm sure is because many of those were flushes (some were 4 to the straight flush) and I kept reminding myself the card I discarded every time I push the button. If it was same rank but diff suit, or same suit and diff rank, I would have noticed and not been so angry!

I practice for a few hours at a time on the Wizard of Odds JOB free play JAVA game , so yes I'm a pro! ;->


I believe it's happened on both the IGT or Ballys type machines, but I will try to make a note/photo next time to try to 'prove' it happened. I obviously would have been tired towards the end of these sessions, but no alcohol was involved and I have no health issues.

So let's say hypothetically this is true (discards come back). How much worse are playing those machines? Is this ethically something they need to divulge?

I am not sure if it's cool to say what casinos/machine locations these were in... If these are 'rogue' machines different from the others, I might not go back to those casinos in question, even though I got 2 royals in a relatively short period of time!
Wizard
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Wizard
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June 5th, 2010 at 10:59:40 AM permalink
Cryptologic Internet casinos have such a game, called Bonus' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/tables/bonusvideopoker.html]Bonus Video Poker. The 40-20-9-6 Jacks or Better pay table in that game returns 95.2642%. In conventional video poker it would return 98.2534%. So putting the discards back in the deck costs the player 2.9892% in this example.

I'm extremely skeptical that an IGT or Bally's machine would do this. This is crying out for a video as evidence.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
edhou1
edhou1
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June 5th, 2010 at 11:26:00 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Cryptologic Internet casinos have such a game, called . The 40-20-9-6 Jacks or Better pay table in that game returns 95.2642%. In conventional video poker it would return 98.2534%. So putting the discards back in the deck costs the player 2.9892% in this example.

I'm extremely skeptical that an IGT or Bally's machine would do this. This is crying out for a video as evidence.




I'll try to document this next time if I can (especially if someone else has noticed the same thing), although most of AC where I usually play frowns upon using any video cameras in my experience. I don't want to be backed off from VP or barred from the casino (especially one that I am winning at).

Ummm, I wonder hypothetically if the Gaming commissions needs to know about the discard policy.
Any slot/ VP > 99% return has gotten rare that I'm surprised they even offer 9/6 JOB at any denom without some drawbacks. A game with discard play like this could easily be 'snuck' in without suspicion, in my view, since most players only play maybe 30-60 minutes and give up if they don't hit a major hand).
I probably wouldn't have noticed the play/win difference if I didn't practice so much on the JAVA game at home.
damule56
damule56
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June 6th, 2010 at 12:25:32 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Maybe he means the same card in rank only. If so, this sounds like the Rob Singer theory.



I was thinking the same thing Wizard. However, the poster here is much more articulate than our boy. Here are my opinions of what is possibly occurring here:

1 - The machine(s) being played here are not class III machines, but class II or video lottery terminals. In the case of VLT's, the result is pre-determined at the time of the deal, so the results after the draw are just window dressing and can display anything to match the pre-determined result, even if it means displaying an identical card. Although, I believe this would be a poor way of displaying the result especially because the same result could be displayed without reusing any cards. For instance, if when the deal button is hit the pre-determined result is that of a royal flush, no matter what the player holds, the end result will display a royal flush. Even if the player is dealt 4 to a royal and discards 1 of the family, when the draw button is hit the card will return with the 5th card of the royal in some manner. Even if a cowgirl has to appear on the screen with a six shooter to blow holes in some cards to replace them with a royal flush (really! this does happen on some class II machines). However, I don't know where and why there would be any class II machines in Vegas or AC.

2 - The original poster of the thread is "full of you know what" and is just looking to start corruption rumors. We've seen this all before, with 4 card flipovers and the like. I am a very acute player that probably plays most games with 99.7% accuracy. I usually don't pay much attention to the exact cards that I discard at times except maybe when mulling over a penalty card scenario for half a second. However, if I observed, with the slightest incling that a card I discarded may have returned after a draw, I sure as heck would be paying extremely close attention on every draw there after. And if this occurred to me in a regulated region such as in Vegas or AC, I sure as all heck would have called the gaming commission at that point in time and demanded the machine be examined immediately.

3 - The poster was playing an oddball game such as the Wizard identified that re-shuffles discards in the draw. I've never seen a game like this in any casino ever. Or the poster was simply fabricating the story about being in Vegas or AC and was playing on Pogo or a cellphone with no type of proven program behind it. Or the poster was drunk, has poor eyesight, was over-tired and hallucinating, anyone's guess what else here, etc, etc.

With my extensive experience in video poker play over the years combined with video poker forum particpation the last several years, my odds are on opinion #2.
edhou1
edhou1
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June 6th, 2010 at 10:02:22 AM permalink
Wow, I get some great info but it is now starting to come with nasty accusations. I don't appreciate the aspersions that I am a pathological liar or am looking to troll, as you don't know me. Everyone has to start somewhere on these boards, and I apologize if I sound like a troll. It is not my intent.

There are a lot of legit reasons that most people would NOT have "called the gaming commission" after noticing this, including the lack of desire to start a battle over what I would consider a mostly academic issue.

If it provides any more clues to anyone, I did hit both royals in AC with holding 4 to a royal and getting the needed jack. It could have been class II but I'm sure people would have noticed since they are high visib full pay machines listed in VPFree2 (one is a progressive 9/6 JOB, one is not). So I'm fully able to admit that maybe I was imagining it. I am not so arrogant as to believe that my senses are perfect after 8 hours of play. Edward
damule56
damule56
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June 6th, 2010 at 10:32:41 AM permalink
Quote: edhou1

Wow, I get some great info but it is now starting to come with nasty accusations. I don't appreciate the aspersions that I am a pathological liar or am looking to troll, as you don't know me. Everyone has to start somewhere on these boards, and I apologize if I sound like a troll. It is not my intent.

There are a lot of legit reasons that most people would NOT have "called the gaming commission" after noticing this, including the lack of desire to start a battle over what I would consider a mostly academic issue.

If it provides any more clues to anyone, I did hit both royals in AC with holding 4 to a royal and getting the needed jack. It could have been class II but I'm sure people would have noticed since they are high visib full pay machines listed in VPFree2 (one is a progressive 9/6 JOB, one is not). So I'm fully able to admit that maybe I was imagining it. I am not so arrogant as to believe that my senses are perfect after 8 hours of play. Edward



Sorry you feel that I'm accusing you of being a troll. You write with good articulation and seem to be direct with your thoughts. I'm happy for your royal flushes. However, I can only think of a few "legit" reasons someone would not call the gaming commission: the player has a warrant for his arrest, the player has been suspected of cheating casinos, or the player doesn't understand how significant a find it would be that the casinos are cheating. Also, I don't see how this is only an academic issue, when the entire pay table displayed on the machine is a fallacy and we, the customers, are playing the game based on the information supplied by the casino. If this were actually happening, the whole casino industry could be brought to it's knees, let alone the one casino you were playing at. I guess if this were the 70's or 80's if you were the whistle blower, there could be some future concerns for you safety. But this is 2010, where corporations run casinos and viral videos capture everything. If I were in your shoes, I'd record the actual occurance, contact the gaming commission and the media and find a way to get rich off of the discovery.

If, as it seems with your last post, you're not looking to start corruption rumors, I would say go play there again when you're well rested and play slowly. Keep a log of cards dealt and drawn and see if this actually does occur. It would be tedious work but would answer all the questions. Also find out for certain if the machines you are playing on are class II or III. Class II machines have a little "bingo card" on the front display panel. I seriously doubt they would be class II in AC or Vegas. If the casino has an issue with you recording information on paper, that should definitely be a sign of a problem. If this is a smaller, off the beaten path casino I would leave and call the gaming commission anonymously. I think if you're legitimate, as you say you are, you'll find that the identical card flipover did not occur and you were just tired.

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