Vulturing 'Ultimate X'
Do the cleared "bonus symbols" increase the future payback for the game?Quote: DRichI don't think you have a case with Nevada Gaming. I have created multiple video slot machines that do this and they don't have a problem with it. The way the ones I have done worked was when a patron went to cash out it would prompt the patron that cashing out will clear any accumulated "bonus symbols".
I don't see how this would be possible for "cleared VP multipliers", but maybe for slots.
>>> I thought "players equity" had to stay in the machine (or be moved into another machine).
>>> So illegal for casinos to send people/employees/hired-consultants to clear out jackpots which are too high.
One player claimed he caused problems for one casino with the "frog" game, when most of them became "erasing frogs" (with the new warning on the screen).
The player called Gaming about the "erasing frogs", and the casino pulled the game.
Interestingly, one casino experimented with three regular "frog" games on one side of a back, and three "erasing frogs" on the other side, before shifting eventually to all "erasing frogs".
Casinos potentially lose $3-$9/day/game on UX leftover multipliers.Quote: beachbumbabsVisible multipliers are also a strong lure for people who don't know how to maximize their value, and they only last for 1 hand. If you're looking at a bank of VP, aren't you going to be attracted to a ready multiplier?
I don't think the casinos think the retention feature hurts them enough to take them away in the overall scheme of things. I could easily be wrong.
Minuscule compared to $100-300+/day/game profit on each game.
A lot of people who start chasing leftover multipliers...end up losing $1,000+ playing heads-up.
More fun making your own pages of 12Xs.
Takes 1-3 months to find a page of 12Xs, but dealt full houses are common.
Then there are the people who hate "vultures", and play longer to clear out all multipliers.
...probably helps the casino in the long run. Big win for casino.
My polite suggestion is study some statistics. "Accurate" doesn't have much meaning.Quote: WizardofnothingWhere in the world do you get your numbers, even if they are complied from experience that is hardly even close to a big enough sample size to be accurate
You can always have bad days & good days.
Statistics can be used to explore new casinos & estimate the EV of playing on Mondays vs Saturdays. When collecting data, you make some a priori assumptions, & draw some inferences.
Bad assumptions can lead to really poor inferences.
Even 1 day of data, contains value. Consider T-distribution vs. Sigmoidal.
Especially look at modern non-linear statistics from the past 30 yrs, and not the old-fashioned pre-computer probability equations of the 1800s-1900s. Computers can work with raw data sets, with no need for equations.
My statements here are non-statistical statements based on my experiences & others.
You can ignore them all if you like.
Quote: IbeatyouracesMy very first hand played today. Not UX but still a pretty nice $562.50 win.
what game is this?
and why not post in the jackpot pictures thread?
Quote: mamat
The player called Gaming about the "erasing frogs", and the casino pulled the game.
Interestingly, one casino experimented with three regular "frog" games on one side of a back, and three "erasing frogs" on the other side, before shifting eventually to all "erasing frogs".
That may be true but the casino did not have to pull them. I am very familiar with that game and know exactly how it works.
All of those frog games in Nevada had an option the casino could turn on or off to determine if the frogs cleared. It was completely up to the casino.
Quote: mamatMy polite suggestion is study some statistics. "Accurate" doesn't have much meaning.
You can always have bad days & good days.
Statistics can be used to explore new casinos & estimate the EV of playing on Mondays vs Saturdays. When collecting data, you make some a priori assumptions, & draw some inferences.
Bad assumptions can lead to really poor inferences.
Even 1 day of data, contains value. Consider T-distribution vs. Sigmoidal.
Especially look at modern non-linear statistics from the past 30 yrs, and not the old-fashioned pre-computer probability equations of the 1800s-1900s. Computers can work with raw data sets, with no need for equations.
My statements here are non-statistical statements based on my experiences & others.
You can ignore them all if you like.
Wow.. I just read this for the first time. ROFL
Quote: ukaserexI cannot think of a more addicting game than Ultimate X! It just kills me how fast the credits come and go. Gets the old heart beating faster than if I were running a 100 yard dash with cops and mean dogs chasing me.
Try Good Times Pay video poker if you haven't yet. I think that one is even more addicting because you have multipliers almost every hand and there are no strategy adjustments required.
Quote: ukaserexI cannot think of a more addicting game than Ultimate X! It just kills me how fast the credits come and go. Gets the old heart beating faster than if I were running a 100 yard dash with cops and mean dogs chasing me.
Agreed! Except for me the credits just seem to go :-(
I really like that winning streak.
I think DW dream poker is fun.
Quote: rsactuaryAgreed! Except for me the credits just seem to go :-(
There is a single line Ult X at The Palace Casino in Biloxi. It possesses most of my gambling thoughts - most of which I repress.
I'll need to share some pics soon - maybe tomorrow - where I got a quad which paid 10X. Wish it had been $1 and not quarters - but the variance is tough to manage with $1.
It is truly feast or famine with that specific game.
$100 cash in.
5+5 credits per hand. 25 cent denomination.
It will give me a full house or flush followed by a 12x pair of 2-10s routinely. It will do this until 200 credits are left. Then it will start to give me pairs followed by pairs - which is nothing more than break even, and soon, when I'm down to about 140 credits, I'll get a full house, and then trips. And then a pair, and then a quad, followed by 20 hands of garbage. A truly lovely game.
But then, you knew that already.
Quote: AxelWolfI have the worst of luck on UX.
I really like that winning streak.
I think DW dream poker is fun.
winning streak is my go to game if there is one. I like the adrenaline it gives me as I get to the top level.
Quote: GWAEwinning streak is my go to game if there is one. I like the adrenaline it gives me as I get to the top level.
I think Multi-Strike is suppose to have such an appeal as well by the way it's designed, but I think it just doesn't progress often enough (for my attention span) anyway.
Which goes to prove, producing games with similar gimmicks isn't the only ingredient to success.
unfortunately the strategy may be complicated you can ussuly come close and figure it out using some logic but it wont be perfet so you give up some EV even if you do find a good pay table. I have only played it like 2 times because of this. My GF and I did well but Dj didn't do so well. I don't think he liked it much.Quote: GWAEwinning streak is my go to game if there is one. I like the adrenaline it gives me as I get to the top level.
Quote: AxelWolfunfortunately the strategy may be complicated you can ussuly come close and figure it out using some logic but it wont be perfet so you give up some EV even if you do find a good pay table. I have only played it like 2 times because of this. My GF and I did well but Dj didn't do so well. I don't think he liked it much.
I'm not a big fan of MS or WS because it requires such a huge investment up front. The probability of getting to the highest hand is pretty low, whereas on UX you can realize the multiplier on the next hand, and on DC you are almost 50/50 in getting the best possible EV hand on the last card.
Finally hit a decent multiplier. Not much money at all but not bad for $1.25 investment.
I've determined that my location is mostly a waste of time looking for these things, so I've scaled back how often I check for them. I now only do it on breaks from poker to refresh, or if I spot something specifically while walking around. I will say that there are times when there seems to be a good amount of multipliers to be found, but this also coincides with when I like playing poker so poker wins. Punching through 10 machines in a row to find nothing or one 2x on a .05 cent 10-play was getting really annoying anyway...
Quote: Hoodstarhttp://imgur.com/r2hcS7T
Finally hit a decent multiplier. Not much money at all but not bad for $1.25 investment.
I've determined that my location is mostly a waste of time looking for these things, so I've scaled back how often I check for them. I now only do it on breaks from poker to refresh, or if I spot something specifically while walking around.
While it's possible you miss a few, if you part time AP it makes it more fun again and less "annoying' to check on walk thrus. I usually had set paths on entering and exiting different casinos in Vegas. On trips to rest rooms, or trips to snack bars/restaurants, I always deviated so I could check out particular machine areas. Actual hanging out and vulturing was a drag.
G/f also forgot to cash out $16 worth of tickets last night; oh darn, I guess we'll have to go back!
I'm even a bit more shocked I hit the Royal because I got my first play money Royal in awhile on Sunday as well since Split Card Poker is fun!
That's what all dem crazy people say...Quote: DRichI am not crazy.
Quote: DRichI am not crazy. People are hitting more royals on the bottom line than on the other lines.
You don't really believe that do you?
Quote: WizardofnothingYou don't really believe that do you?
Yes, actually I do although it is not because of any irregularity. The fact is that you have to play at least the bottom hand even if you don't play hands 2 thru X soyou will naturally have more royals on hand one.
I guess my real point is that of the pictures that get posted there seems to be more hits on hand one. Maybe people just post them more because they are visually more appealing.
It's become a real problem at a few of my casinos... To the point where I think they're hiring someone to play off 1 line 1 credit (at ALL the levels from $0.05 - $2 per pull):Quote: WizardofnothingI'll agree with you on that part- I do see plopies playing one line
It "burns" all of the other multipliers. So someone is running around burning all of these so "vultures" can't get them. Or so it would seem.Quote: WizardofnothingI'm missing something though, what does playing one line one credit hurt ....in relationship to the multiplier
I'm thinking that should be illegal.Quote: RomesIt "burns" all of the other multipliers. So someone is running around burning all of these so "vultures" can't get them. Or so it would seem.
100%... I also have proof that PA casinos "wipe" their multipliers after 20-30 minutes of inactivity. That has GOT to be illegal. People paid money for those multipliers. The casino is thus stealing from whomever plays them by removing them I would think.Quote: AxelWolfI'm thinking that should be illegal.
As long as it's over the minimum payback i'm not sure. Of course It is under the state minimum to someone ignorant. What's the average might be all that matters. The minimum payback is only usually based on what is possible factored in with how the average person plays.Quote: Romes100%... I also have proof that PA casinos "wipe" their multipliers after 20-30 minutes of inactivity. That has GOT to be illegal. People paid money for those multipliers. The casino is thus stealing from whomever plays them by removing them I would think.
Then again, if it's viewed as player funded progressive.
I'm NOT sure why the casinos don't have a "WARNING YOU HAVE MULTIPLIERS WORTH XXX, ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO CASH OUT? YOU MAY PLAY 5 COINS TO CLEAR YOUR BONUS" before people cash out or they can just include the value of the multipliers to your ticket.
Quote: Romes100%... I also have proof that PA casinos "wipe" their multipliers after 20-30 minutes of inactivity. That has GOT to be illegal. People paid money for those multipliers. The casino is thus stealing from whomever plays them by removing them I would think.
I am pretty sure I know which ones you go to and that is factually untrue. I would be curious as to your proof. PM me if you would like. There are 3 vultures that I know of at the one who camp there mostly all day. Maybe those people work for the casino? I doubt that would be the case but possibly. The machines certainly don't automatically wipe them.
Quote: AxelWolfAs long as it's over the minimum payback i'm not sure. Of course It is under the state minimum to someone ignorant. What's the average might be all that matters. The minimum payback is only usually based on what is possible factored in with how the average person plays.
Then again, if it's viewed as player funded progressive.
I'm NOT sure why the casinos don't have a "WARNING YOU HAVE MULTIPLIERS WORTH XXX, ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO CASH OUT? YOU MAY PLAY 5 COINS TO CLEAR YOUR BONUS" before people cash out or they can just include the value of the multipliers to your ticket.
Most (all?) of the minimum payback laws are always based on optimal strategy for skill games. So as long as the option to play optimally exists, the actual return of the machine doesn't matter. This includes Pennsylvania. § 461a.7.(d).(4)
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter461a/s461a.7.html
Although in this scenario of the multipliers being wiped away after play, the return of the machine is still likely in the 90s anyway. Most people that play the game for leisure play at least a few dozen hands at a time.
As for a casino hiring someone to wipe them off, that has to be illegal. It's illegal for casino employees in PA and my home state of MO to gamble at the casino they are employed at.
Quote: Romes100%... I also have proof that PA casinos "wipe" their multipliers after 20-30 minutes of inactivity. That has GOT to be illegal. People paid money for those multipliers. The casino is thus stealing from whomever plays them by removing them I would think.
Can't be all of them. I know a few, there's not a chance in Hell there have been people on them within thirty minutes of my being there. Not all of them, anyway.
Quote: Romes100%... I also have proof that PA casinos "wipe" their multipliers after 20-30 minutes of inactivity. That has GOT to be illegal. People paid money for those multipliers. The casino is thus stealing from whomever plays them by removing them I would think.
Between my drives between New York and Virginia I always stop at Hollywood Penn National (almost always some multipliers left, sometimes only a couple sometimes a lot) and then either Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs (rarely more than a small handful of multipliers but my bladder needs a break so I stop) or Mount Airy (same chance as Penn National). Not saying it is impossible but I have not seen it. I usually hit these casinos in the morning when less people are there playing.
So they could come up with a game that's so complicated almost no one could achieve higher than 40%? Obviously they probably wouldn't want to invent such a game but you never know.Quote: tringlomaneMost (all?) of the minimum payback laws are always based on optimal strategy for skill games. So as long as the option to play optimally exists, the actual return of the machine doesn't matter. This includes Pennsylvania. § 461a.7.(d).(4)
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter461a/s461a.7.html
Although in this scenario of the multipliers being wiped away after play, the return of the machine is still likely in the 90s anyway. Most people that play the game for leisure play at least a few dozen hands at a time.
As for a casino hiring someone to wipe them off, that has to be illegal. It's illegal for casino employees in PA and my home state of MO to gamble at the casino they are employed at.
Quote: cmlotitoBetween my drives between New York and Virginia I always stop at Hollywood Penn National (almost always some multipliers left, sometimes only a couple sometimes a lot) and then either Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs (rarely more than a small handful of multipliers but my bladder needs a break so I stop) or Mount Airy (same chance as Penn National). Not saying it is impossible but I have not seen it. I usually hit these casinos in the morning when less people are there playing.
People are pretty sophisticated, if you can really call it that, about getting in there to vulture roughly right after the crowds leave. Typically just after last call in Western PA.
Quote: AxelWolfSo they could come up with a game that's so complicated almost no one could achieve higher than 40%? Obviously they probably wouldn't want to invent such a game but you never know.
Legally and theoretically, yes they could. But practically this will never happen. I doubt anyone could create a VP game so difficult were the average player would return almost 60% less than optimal. And if they did, it sure as hell wouldn't last long. I would be shocked if any real variant's actual return was more than 10% less of optimal.
Quote: cmlotitoBetween my drives between New York and Virginia I always stop at Hollywood Penn National (almost always some multipliers left, sometimes only a couple sometimes a lot) and then either Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs (rarely more than a small handful of multipliers but my bladder needs a break so I stop) or Mount Airy (same chance as Penn National). Not saying it is impossible but I have not seen it. I usually hit these casinos in the morning when less people are there playing.
why go thru PA to goto nyc?
why not I95?
Quote: 100xOddswhy go thru PA to goto nyc?
why not I95?
Upstate NY via 81N.
https://imgur.com/a/HxohB
