Definition of "full pay video poker"??
Quote: AlanMendelsonWhere can I find the OFFICIAL definition of full pay video poker (cited source)? And what is it?
I think the term originated with Lenny Frome referring to 9/6 Jacks, as opposed to 8/5 Jacks.
Quote: mickeycrimmI think the term originated with Lenny Frome referring to 9/6 Jacks, as opposed to 8/5 Jacks.
I think he also coined the term Full Pay Deuces Wild which is the 100.76 payscale.
I really believe mickey is right. Normally its used to indicate a few games specifically. I never hear the term full pay double bonus. its normally referred to as 10/7.Quote: IbeatyouracesTo me its the highest returning paytable in use for that particular game. Not what a casino specifically has.
Example: Full Pay Double Double Bonus is 250/50/400/160/160/80/50/10/6/4/3/1/1. 9/6 DDB is not full pay!
if its used for "The highest returning paytable in use for that particular game." Then 9/6 jacks would not qualify under jacks or better, because they have 10/6 jacks and 9/7 jacks versions occasionally pop up.
I guess you can say, it refers to the the standard highest version of a particular game.
Error or a casino mistake? A mistake most likely . Vegas world and the Stratosphere had quite a few of them for a long time. A few other casinos did as well. I would be willing to bet there are still a few around.Quote: IbeatyouracesAnd FPDW wouldn't qualify due to loose deuces passing a better return.
If you find a 10/6 or 9/7 JoB, its most likely an error in programming or a promo.
What I have said about full pay:
"Full pay" does not mean 100%+ or 100% payback and never has. "Full pay" is commonly used to refer to the best of the regular paytables for various games.
I wrote that based on what I have learned from various books, discussions, articles. But is there an official source?
Even the Wizard's site seems to lack an official definition... or did I not find it?
Regarding 10/6 or 9/7 Jacks or Better: these would be considered "exceptions" but 9/6 would be the full pay game, from my understanding.
I consider loose deuces a different game. It has a specific name. So in that category you could refer to the standard highest pay as full pay LDQuote: IbeatyouracesAnd FPDW wouldn't qualify due to loose deuces passing a better return.
If you find a 10/6 or 9/7 JoB, its most likely an error in programming or a promo.
Quote: AlanMendelsonWhat I have said about full pay:
"Full pay" does not mean 100%+ or 100% payback and never has. "Full pay" is commonly used to refer to the best of the regular paytables for various games.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI would agree to this.
Thanks. I am hoping the Wizard will help out here.
Quote: AxelWolfError or a casino mistake? A mistake most likely . Vegas world and the Stratosphere had quite a few of them for a long time. A few other casinos did as well. I would be willing to bet there are still a few around.
I've found a couple programming errors before on machines. One was a 5c game linked to a 25c $1199 royal. Another was a progressive where you had to bet 10credits for the progressive but one of the games on one of the machines you only had to bet 5credits.
5. What is a full-pay VP machine? - A machine that has the best pay schedule for a particular VP Game, that can be found in any quantity in casinos. Often it is a judgmental decision as to which pay schedule should get the full-pay designation.
By Elliot FromeQuote: AlanMendelsonWhere can I find the OFFICIAL definition of full pay video poker (cited source)?
http://frome.casinocitytimes.com/article/where-to-start-32722
"The term 'full-pay' generally refers to the highest paying paytable for each variation of video poker."Quote: AlanMendelsonAnd what is it?
and
"So, I guess 'full-pay' really means the highest paying paytable that can generally be found for a given version of video poker."
9-6 Jacks or Better (99.54%)
8-5 Bonus Poker (99.17%)
10-7 Double Bonus (100.17%)
9-6 Bonus Poker Deluxe (99.64%)
9-5 White Hot Aces (99.57%)
10-6 Double Double Bonus (100.07%)
9-6 Double Double Bonus Poker Plus (99.44%)
9-7 Triple Double Bonus (99.58%)
25-15-9-5-3-2 Deuces Wild (100.76%)
If anyone feels any of these are not worthy to be on the list, please state why. I was unsure of what to put for Joker Poker as I never play it and there are so many different known pay tables. I don't know what one my reasonably expect to find.
Quote: WizardGood question! "Full Pay" usually refers to 9-6 Jacks or Better, but I've heard in reference to other games as well. As JB wrote, it is the most liberal pay table for a given game that is widely available. Where this is going to be subject to debate is what counts as "widely available." One might say that 100.76% deuces shouldn't count as full pay any longer because it is so hard to find any longer. Nevertheless, I'd like to raise this list up the flagpole:
9-6 Jacks or Better (99.54%)
8-5 Bonus Poker (99.17%)
10-7 Double Bonus (100.17%)
9-6 Bonus Poker Deluxe (99.64%)
9-5 White Hot Aces (99.57%)
10-6 Double Double Bonus (100.07%)
9-6 Double Double Bonus Poker Plus (99.44%)
9-7 Triple Double Bonus (99.58%)
25-15-9-5-3-2 Deuces Wild (100.76%)
If anyone feels any of these are not worthy to be on the list, please state why. I was unsure of what to put for Joker Poker as I never play it and there are so many different known pay tables. I don't know what one my reasonably expect to find.
I think this is spot on. From my recent studying of the vp game here and various other places, these seem to be the best tables for those games, which means these are the best of the tables loaded into the machines. I don't have much of an idea yet if these tables are widely available or not. But they are all full pay versions, for sure.
Quote: WizardGood question! "Full Pay" usually refers to 9-6 Jacks or Better, but I've heard in reference to other games as well. As JB wrote, it is the most liberal pay table for a given game that is widely available. Where this is going to be subject to debate is what counts as "widely available." One might say that 100.76% deuces shouldn't count as full pay any longer because it is so hard to find any longer. Nevertheless, I'd like to raise this list up the flagpole:
9-6 Jacks or Better (99.54%)
8-5 Bonus Poker (99.17%)
10-7 Double Bonus (100.17%)
9-6 Bonus Poker Deluxe (99.64%)
9-5 White Hot Aces (99.57%)
10-6 Double Double Bonus (100.07%)
9-6 Double Double Bonus Poker Plus (99.44%)
9-7 Triple Double Bonus (99.58%)
25-15-9-5-3-2 Deuces Wild (100.76%)
If anyone feels any of these are not worthy to be on the list, please state why. I was unsure of what to put for Joker Poker as I never play it and there are so many different known pay tables. I don't know what one my reasonably expect to find.
Kings or Better Joker Poker, the 20-7-5-3 payscale, has been referred to as Full Pay Jokers Wild. The return is 100.6463. But a later version has the same payscale except the royal pays 4700 coins. The return is 101%.
Quote: AxelWolfI consider loose deuces a different game. It has a specific name. So in that category you could refer to the standard highest pay as full pay LD
I used to love playing the 17/10 Loose Deuces down in Laughlin. It was either Colorado Belle or Edgewater and they had a few at the bar that looks over the river. Nothing better than 101.6% game while having cold beverages and people watching.
Quote: DRichI used to love playing the 17/10 Loose Deuces down in Laughlin. It was either Colorado Belle or Edgewater and they had a few at the bar that looks over the river. Nothing better than 101.6% game while having cold beverages and people watching.
They were in the bartops in the Edgwater. The long bar overlooking the river. They were also in the bartops of the bar next to the sports book at the Riverside.
Quote: WizardGood question! "Full Pay" usually refers to 9-6 Jacks or Better, but I've heard in reference to other games as well. As JB wrote, it is the most liberal pay table for a given game that is widely available. Where this is going to be subject to debate is what counts as "widely available." One might say that 100.76% deuces shouldn't count as full pay any longer because it is so hard to find any longer. Nevertheless, I'd like to raise this list up the flagpole:
9-6 Jacks or Better (99.54%)
8-5 Bonus Poker (99.17%)
10-7 Double Bonus (100.17%)
9-6 Bonus Poker Deluxe (99.64%)
9-5 White Hot Aces (99.57%)
10-6 Double Double Bonus (100.07%)
9-6 Double Double Bonus Poker Plus (99.44%)
9-7 Triple Double Bonus (99.58%)
25-15-9-5-3-2 Deuces Wild (100.76%)
If anyone feels any of these are not worthy to be on the list, please state why. I was unsure of what to put for Joker Poker as I never play it and there are so many different known pay tables. I don't know what one my reasonably expect to find.
So, adding mickey's Joker Poker payscale, at Kings or Better Joker Poker, the 20-7-5-3 payscale,
could someone weigh in with a Bonus Deuces Wild paytable, please, and also a Quick Quads paytable on JoB if it's different (best offering with QQ feature)? Those last have become my favorite 2 games, but I haven't seen enough paytables to know the varieties out there.
Quote: beachbumbabsSo, adding mickey's Joker Poker payscale, at Kings or Better Joker Poker, the 20-7-5-3 payscale,
could someone weigh in with a Bonus Deuces Wild paytable, please, and also a Quick Quads paytable on JoB if it's different (best offering with QQ feature)? Those last have become my favorite 2 games, but I haven't seen enough paytables to know the varieties out there.
I think the Bonus Deuces would be the 9/4/4 game that pays 99.45%
To expand the list, here are some other "full pay" games.
9/6 Ponus Poker Deluxe (99.64%)
9/5 Super Double Bonus (99.69%)
8/5 Super Double Double Bonus (99.69%)
9/5 Triple Bonus Plus (99.80%)
8/5 Super Aces Bonus (99.94%)
1200/239.8/120/18/15/11/5 Pick 'em (99.95%)
Quote: DRichI think the Bonus Deuces would be the 9/4/4 game that pays 99.45%
Yeah that's full pay.
Quick Quads (with Max bet are as follows):
236/45/30 JoB (99.61%)
230/40/25 bonus (99.55%)
275/45/35 double bonus (99.55%)
260/45/30 double double bonus (99.65%)
Found full pay job and db qq at Isle of Capri KC last night. But I can't afford $18/round. :( still has $1 full pay pick em too.
9-6 Jacks or Better (99.54%)
8-5 Bonus Poker (99.17%)
10-7 Double Bonus (100.17%)
9-6 Bonus Poker Deluxe (99.64%)
9-5 White Hot Aces (99.57%)
10-6 Double Double Bonus (100.07%)
9-6 Double Double Bonus Poker Plus (99.44%)
9-7 Triple Double Bonus (99.58%)
25-15-9-5-3-2 Deuces Wild (100.76%)
20-7-5-3 Kings or Better Joker Poker
9/4/4 Bonus Deuces Wild (99.45%)
9/6 Ponus Poker Deluxe (99.64%)
9/5 Super Double Bonus (99.69%)
8/5 Super Double Double Bonus (99.69%)
9/5 Triple Bonus Plus (99.80%)
8/5 Super Aces Bonus (99.94%)
1200/239.8/120/18/15/11/5 Pick 'em (99.95%)
236/45/30 JoB QQ (99.61%)
230/40/25 bonus QQ(99.55%)
275/45/35 double bonus QQ(99.55%)
260/45/30 double double bonus QQ(99.65%)
?/? Downtown Deuces (100.92%)
Anything else? Spin Poker, Multi-Strike or Ultimate X, perhaps? Anything optimum there in variation to the above?
So if they took out all 9/6 and replace them with 6/5 games, or you play in a state where by law they don't offer over a certain percentage, we will all run around referring to 6/5 jacks as full pay? I hope not.Quote: AlanMendelsonI've done an Internet search and I can't find an "official definition."
What I have said about full pay:
"Full pay" does not mean 100%+ or 100% payback and never has. "Full pay" is commonly used to refer to the best of the regular paytables for various games.
I wrote that based on what I have learned from various books, discussions, articles. But is there an official source?
Even the Wizard's site seems to lack an official definition... or did I not find it?
Regarding 10/6 or 9/7 Jacks or Better: these would be considered "exceptions" but 9/6 would be the full pay game, from my understanding.
I really think it refers to specific games, 9/6 would be considered FP nowadays. In the past, when they had many more options, I don't think 9/6 was considered to be full pay, especially if it was sitting next to a 10/7 double bonus poker. People use the term full pay, in order to shorten a conversation, so they don't have to explain in detail every game they are referring to. I think its has more then one meaning. For instance no one refers to 8/5 bonus poker as full pay. How you explained the term, 8/5 bonus could be considered full pay. If you define it in that way, this would open up an opportunity for some crack pot System players to make more stupid claims , because they now would be considered to always be playing play full pay games, meanwhile they have never touched a machine that pays 100% or more.
Lets not lower the standard when referring to Full Pay, lets higher the standard.
We should stop referring to any thing under 100% as full pay altogether. That way casinos can't boast of having full pay machines that pay less than 100%. With the exception of 9/6. We want more FPDW and less NSU, well everyone but PGD.
There would be many more exceptions then just the 10/6 jacks and 9/7 jacks as well, for instance All american has the 100.7% version and the 103%. I could come up with a list of what you would have to conciser exceptions.
Quote: AxelWolfSo if they took out all 9/6 and replace them with 6/5 games, or you play in a state where by law they don't offer over a certain percentage, we will all run around referring to 6/5 jacks as full pay? I hope not.
No we wouldn't.
There is an argumentative and combative poster on my website who is trying to make this same argument.
But his argument goes even father: he claims in order to be full pay it must be a 100%+ game.
It's pretty clear, I think, that in the example of Jacks or Better that 9/6 is the "full pay game" but some casinos can offer better or worse than 9/6. And even if, for example, 8/6 Jacks dominates in a particular casino that cannot be considered "full pay."
My only wish is that somewhere, someone would set the rule as to what "full pay" is so we wouldn't have the silly discussions that sometimes go on.
And yes, 8/5 Bonus Poker is "full pay."
Axel, you don't post on my forum using a different name, do you?
I absolutely do not post or read your forum, nor have I signed up/made a screen name or what ever it is you do there, I may have looked at it once months ago, when you posted a video, I think. Nothing against you, but I spend far to much time on this site as it is. Also I don't want all the other forums like Ahigh's and VPfree to get jealous ;) As i said before, to Bob, I'm not a forum whore.Quote: AlanMendelsonNo we wouldn't.
There is an argumentative and combative poster on my website who is trying to make this same argument.
But his argument goes even father: he claims in order to be full pay it must be a 100%+ game.
It's pretty clear, I think, that in the example of Jacks or Better that 9/6 is the "full pay game" but some casinos can offer better or worse than 9/6. And even if, for example, 8/6 Jacks dominates in a particular casino that cannot be considered "full pay."
My only wish is that somewhere, someone would set the rule as to what "full pay" is so we wouldn't have the silly discussions that sometimes go on.
And yes, 8/5 Bonus Poker is "full pay."
Axel, you don't post on my forum using a different name, do you?
I don't not consider 8/5 bonus a full pay. Don't give anyone or casinos credit for playing or having 8/5 bonus poker as if it was full pay. If you want to set a standard, it should be any game that is above 99.5 and the highest pay back in that category with the exception of very rare games.
How can you call NSU full pay when everyone calls the 100.7 version Full pay deuces wild?
Quote: AxelWolfI don't not consider 8/5 bonus a full pay. Don't give anyone or casinos credit for playing or having 8/5 bonus poker as if it was full pay. If you want to set a standard, it should be any game that is above 99.5 and the highest pay back in that category with the exception of very rare games.
Whoa, make up your mind: why 99.5% return? It seems to me that by YOUR definition full pay can only mean 100% or more -- but now you say 99.5% is okay? You've got to explain it to me.
I think I am going to start a new thread with a poll.
I'm saying if you HAVE to define it permanently make it at least 99.5. I want it to be 100% or over but we all know 9/6 is coincided full pay so we should set the standard at 99.5 or more. My view on what it actually means.. It refers specific games. such asQuote: AlanMendelsonWhoa, make up your mind: why 99.5% return? It seems to me that by YOUR definition full pay can only mean 100% or more -- but now you say 99.5% is okay? You've got to explain it to me.
I think I am going to start a new thread with a poll.
FPDW not NSU they are simply NSU and not full pay
9/6 jacks
10/7
20/7/5 kings or better jokers
If you simply say, I am playing full pay jokers, under your explanation, I may be confused if you were really playing 2 pair jokers.
BTW there is a 8/5 bonus poker variation that pays 100.22 Its rare, Also an 8/6 thats even slightly better, I can find an exception to just about all the games you believe are full pay
Quote: AlanMendelsonWhoa, make up your mind: why 99.5% return? It seems to me that by YOUR definition full pay can only mean 100% or more -- but now you say 99.5% is okay? You've got to explain it to me. I think I am going to start a new thread with a poll.
Alan, years ago Lenny Frome, the first video poker writer, referred to just a few games as full pay. He referred to 9/6 Jacks as Full Pay Jacks or Better. He referred to the 100.76 version of deuces as Full Pay Deuces Wild. And he referred to the 100.64 version of Jokers as Full Pay Jokers Wild. He never referred to any other games as Full Pay. This was back in the eighties and early nineties when there weren't that many different payscales. I don't think bonus poker was developed until 1989. Now we have like 200 different payscales. No one has really ever set a standard for what can be referred to as Full Pay today. But I think the attempt is being made in this thread.
Quote: mickeycrimmAlan, years ago Lenny Frome, the first video poker writer, referred to just a few games as full pay. He referred to 9/6 Jacks as Full Pay Jacks or Better. He referred to the 100.76 version of deuces as Full Pay Deuces Wild. And he referred to the 100.64 version of Jokers as Full Pay Jokers Wild. He never referred to any other games as Full Pay. This was back in the eighties and early nineties when there weren't that many different payscales. I don't think bonus poker was developed until 1989. Now we have like 200 different payscales. No one has really ever set a standard for what can be referred to as Full Pay today. But I think the attempt is being made in this thread.
VPFree2 has made a significant attempt. But some of the games can be debated upon, like 9/6 DDB, and 8/5 Bonus, which they personally define as "full pay". 10/6 DDB and 35/8/5 Bonus are better games obviously.
http://www.vpfree2.com/video-poker/pay-tables
this is what i was trying to say all alongQuote: WizardThis is going to be a question in my next Ask the Wizard column. Click the link for a preview.
Quote: AxelWolfI guess you can say, it refers to the the standard highest version of a particular game.
I mostly agree with that list you have as being full pay. and like your explanation. I don't think the all american 103% was a gimmick machine(not that you said it was) I think it started out as the standard and the 100.7 version was the oddball because the strategy was so difficult they thought it would fly. Only after they learned their lesson did they downgrade the 4oak from 250 to 200....sad face
I wonder if defining this would help or hurt video poker offerings at the casino. Would they put more liberal machines in, claiming they had full pay machines. Or would they take out things like full pay deuces and replace them with just under 99% games and still boast of having the most full pay machines.
Quote: Mission146I believe Loose Deuces is incorrect.
Why do you think that? Please see vpFREE2 as my source.
Quote: AxelWolfI don't think the all american 103% was a gimmick machine(not that you said it was) I think it started out as the standard and the 100.7 version was the oddball because the strategy was so difficult they thought it would fly. Only after they learned their lesson did they downgrade the 4oak from 250 to 200....sad face
Maybe it was "full pay" at one time, but I have never once seen a 103% pay table.
Quote:I wonder if defining this would help or hurt video poker offerings at the casino. Would they put more liberal machines in, claiming they had full pay machines. Or would they take out things like full pay deuces and replace them with just under 99% games and still boast of having the most full pay machines.
I don't think the industry uses the term "full pay" very often. The only time I hear the phrase is from VP advantage players.
Quote: WizardWhy do you think that? Please see vpFREE2 as my source.
I understand that, but I just don't understand why not list the best one which is the 101.6% nickel machine at The D?
Oh, commonly available, just caught that, sorry.
I realize that, but they might once it gets defined and accepted. the term Advantage Player was never used in the past, now gaming agents and casino use it regularly.Quote: Wizard.
I don't think the industry uses the term "full pay" very often. The only time I hear the phrase is from VP advantage players.
To that point, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "full pay double double bonus". So what's the point of debating what it would mean if no one is ever going to use it? And why does there even have to be a full pay double double bonus? Everyone just says 9/6 or 10/6/200 or whatever because it's simpler and easier.
