djatc
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August 4th, 2013 at 8:12:37 PM permalink
I'm relatively new to bonus chasing and playing promos, anybody have any good stories of great plays in the past? Of course preferably ones that ended so people don't burn it out now lol.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
teddys
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August 4th, 2013 at 9:36:40 PM permalink
Paging Mickey Crimm . . .
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
gpac1377
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August 5th, 2013 at 7:27:18 AM permalink
I just tried to dig up on old copy of the top 40 from Lodestone's Las Vegas, but the Wayback Machine only goes back to around 1999, by which time the site was subscription-only.

In the distant past, i.e., the 20th century, slot clubs were primitive. Generally, all machines were classified equally, so there was no penalty for playing video poker rather than slots. Cashback percentages could be huge, factoring in multiplier days. As I recall, several of the top Vegas strip casinos paid 0.67%, with the possibility of double or triple point invitations. Desert Inn paid 1%, and maybe also Golden Nugget downtown. 9/6 Jacks was available nearly everywhere.

Many slot clubs were comps-only, which could be lucrative, but required some creativity.

Games were commonly enhanced to create super full-pay versions, such as Joker Wild 4700, or Deuces Wild with a progressive. Double Bonus was offered with a 500-coin straight flush, and some versions of All American paid 250 for quads.

Including benefits, the player edge routinely exceeded 2%, enabling the player to break even without hitting any royals, assuming non-progressives. Royals were considered "gravy," as were drawings, which have always been popular promotions.

Probably the major drawbacks of the olden days were slow machines, and the inconvenient use of coins.

Gradually, TITO (ticket-in ticket-out) was implemented, and multi-line games became available, allowing players to increase their coin-in with reduced volatility. Edges were less spectacular, but overall profits could be equivalent or better.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
JIMMYFOCKER
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August 6th, 2013 at 12:12:53 AM permalink
Flush Attack

Multi-line fpdw

$1 and $5 fpdw
djatc
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August 6th, 2013 at 4:00:23 PM permalink
Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Flush Attack

Multi-line fpdw

$1 and $5 fpdw



I heard about flush attack. Sounds pretty funny how most APs would just wait for the flush attack mode and hammer away trying to hit flushes.

I still see armies of people playing FPDW for quarters. Myself included. I guess we missed the good ol days.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
mickeycrimm
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August 6th, 2013 at 4:53:03 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

I heard about flush attack. Sounds pretty funny how most APs would just wait for the flush attack mode and hammer away trying to hit flushes.

I still see armies of people playing FPDW for quarters. Myself included. I guess we missed the good ol days.



I worked Flush Attack for a lot of years. I learned about the game from an article Doug Reul published in Video Poker Times. I started out on the linked banks in Laughlin. Many places unlinked the machines because of people jumping the light. This created a great opportunity for me. I worked them at Lake Tahoe (Caesars, Bill's, Harrah's, Lakeside). Also worked them at the Red Lion in Elko, and the Carson Valley Inn in Minden. Also the Reno Hilton and Boomtown in Verdi. The full pay version was 8/5 Double Bonus Poker with every 4th flush paying 125 coins, 101.8%. The second best payscale was 7/5, 100.79%.

I rarely played straight through on these machines. The trick to the game was sweeping the machines out and picking up the 5 coin flushes the prior players made before walking away. I used Doug Reul's Flush 50 strategy. With the first three flushes paying 25 coins and the 4th flush paying 125 coins then the average value of the flush is 50 coins, hence Flush 50.

I'll use the Red Lion in Elko as the example. There were 8 unlinked 7/5 Flush Attacks there and two across the street at Gold Country. I would walk in very early in the morning. The first thing I did was check to see if anyone left a machine in Flush Attack mode. On those plays where I had to make only one flush my money was at 135%. If no lights were on then I would sit down on the first machine and play until I collected the 125 coin flush, then cash out, jump over to the next machine and play until I collected the 125 coin flush, then cashout and move to the next machine. And so on until I swept out all 8 machines.

I was using the OPM (other people's money) principle. Ploppie's generally would put a $20 bill in the machine, play until they ran out of credits, then walk away. But how many flushes did they make before they walked away? I knew when I sat down on a machine that I was going to have to make either 2, 3, or 4 flushes to collect the bonus flush. On plays where I had to make all 4 flushes my money was at 100.79%. On plays where I had to make only 3 flushes my money was at 103.79%. And on plays where I had to make only 2 flushes my money was at 109.79%. I kept a pocket notebook and wrote down how many flushes I made on each play to monitor where I was at overall percentagewise. I averaged 2.9 flushes per play in Elko which put my overall expectation at 104%.

Once I swept out a bank of Flush Attacks I went on about my business, and letting the machines get action....but came back a few hours later and repeated the process. So I would sweep the bank out 3 and 4 times a day. The great thing about playing Flush Attacks this way was you were making money on your way to hitting a royal. The royal flush and straight flush represented 2.5% of the payback. So I had 1.5% the best of it just up through the 4 Aces (which had a 4500 game cycle.)
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
JIMMYFOCKER
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August 7th, 2013 at 9:54:02 AM permalink
Crimm, I and others did the same exact thing with Flush Attack.

The bank of machines in Laughlin were the largest banks of Flush Attacks in the world.
mickeycrimm
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August 7th, 2013 at 11:11:17 AM permalink
Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Crimm, I and others did the same exact thing with Flush Attack. The bank of machines in Laughlin were the largest banks of Flush Attacks in the world.



Yes, there was an 18 machine linked bank and an 8 machine linked bank in the Riverside. A 14 machine linked bank in the Flamingo. A ten machine linked bank in the Pioneer. A 4 machine linked bank in the Ramada. And a ten machine linked bank in the River Palms.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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August 7th, 2013 at 11:29:46 AM permalink
The Mountain Bar at Harvey's North Shore Lake Tahoe was a strong play. It was a linked bank of dollar 6/5 Bonus Poker with 1% meters running on the 4 Aces, Small Quads, and Generic Quads. It was a little horseshoe bar with ten machines. My playable numbers were $230 on the generic quads, $500 on the small quads, and $1200 on the 4 Aces. There were some sharp gamblers in Tahoe so it was a quad race whenever a playable number developed. You had to buy racks of tokes from the bartender and hand feed but the machines held credits. One day I walked in and the 4 Aces was at $1400. There was one machine open so I jumped in. The 4 Aces didn't come off easy. I finally hit them at $2400. But I came in third on the money. During the race one player hit two royals and another player hit a royal.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
JIMMYFOCKER
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August 8th, 2013 at 11:14:41 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

The Mountain Bar at Harvey's North Shore Lake Tahoe was a strong play. It was a linked bank of dollar 6/5 Bonus Poker with 1% meters running on the 4 Aces, Small Quads, and Generic Quads. It was a little horseshoe bar with ten machines. My playable numbers were $230 on the generic quads, $500 on the small quads, and $1200 on the 4 Aces. There were some sharp gamblers in Tahoe so it was a quad race whenever a playable number developed. You had to buy racks of tokes from the bartender and hand feed but the machines held credits. One day I walked in and the 4 Aces was at $1400. There was one machine open so I jumped in. The 4 Aces didn't come off easy. I finally hit them at $2400. But I came in third on the money. During the race one player hit two royals and another player hit a royal.

Very nice play
DRich
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August 9th, 2013 at 9:27:23 AM permalink
Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Flush Attack

Multi-line fpdw

$1 and $5 fpdw



Wow, I never saw multi-line FPDW. I probably would have wet myself.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
JIMMYFOCKER
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August 9th, 2013 at 1:20:00 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Wow, I never saw multi-line FPDW. I probably would have wet myself.

Four-play at Sam's Town
DRich
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August 9th, 2013 at 2:03:04 PM permalink
Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Four-play at Sam's Town



Was that on the Odyssey machines? I used to have an Odyssey machine and I gave it away when I moved because I didn't want to move it. I have regretted that many times.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
mickeycrimm
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August 9th, 2013 at 2:37:44 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Was that on the Odyssey machines? I used to have an Odyssey machine and I gave it away when I moved because I didn't want to move it. I have regretted that many times.



I think it was 98 or 99. They had Odyssey's with 4-play FPDW at Fiesta, Arizona Charlie's and Santa Fe Station. I worked a promotion at Fiesta in December where you could trade all the points you made in December for cash. I mostly played on multi-point days. It averaged to .6% cashback. During that promotion I learned that a drawing promotion was going on at Arizona Charlie's. I walked in and all 8 Odyssey's with the FPDW were tied up by just 4 players playing two machines at a time. I figured it was probably like that 24 hours a day. I didn't feel like raining on their parade by squeezing in so I went back to Fiesta.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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August 9th, 2013 at 2:42:12 PM permalink
I have a friend who found a five-play FPDW in a bartop in Duke's, a little casino that was across the street from Ascuagua's Nugget in Sparks. They had a double royal promotion going on. He made $32,000 before they pulled it. This is the only case of a five-play FPDW that I know of.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
gpac1377
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August 9th, 2013 at 4:28:24 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

I walked in and all 8 Odyssey's with the FPDW were tied up by just 4 players playing two machines at a time.


I can understand the temptation to play two Odysseys at a time. They were kinda slow, weren't they?

Quote: mickeycrimm

This is the only case of a five-play FPDW that I know of.


Santa Fe had 20/7 Joker Wild 10-plays, but only for nickels. According to vpfree2, they lasted until 2007.

There must have been some more good stuff near Reno. Looks like Peppermill and Western Village both offered FPDW multistrike (100.88%), denomination unknown. 10/7 DB multi-play (probably up to 100-play) was also available there and elsewhere. Golden Nugget (Vegas) had it for nickels (10-play) until 2005.

That's the kind of stuff I would enjoy playing for fun, but instead when the casinos want to offer 100% games, it's always single-line quarters.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
mickeycrimm
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August 9th, 2013 at 5:06:45 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

I can understand the temptation to play two Odysseys at a time. They were kinda slow, weren't they?



It was all you could do to get out 500 deals an hour.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
djatc
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August 9th, 2013 at 5:16:34 PM permalink
Just heard about the Caeser's "Bring a Friend" promo in the 90s on GWAE

9/6 JoB $25 with 0.60% cashback and double that if you refer a friend and they play. Whatever points they earn, you get twice that in cashback. The guest host had a BP come in and bang away on the machines lol.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
mickeycrimm
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August 9th, 2013 at 5:19:57 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

There must have been some more good stuff near Reno. Looks like Peppermill and Western Village both offered FPDW multistrike (100.88%), denomination unknown.



Reno was really strong for a lot of years. There were so many plays a guy had a hard time choosing which one to go to. It started fading out about 2002. The multi-strike FPDW at the Peppermill got pounded. I didn't mess with it. Too much thinking for me. And no one drew heat. But when they slapped a bank of single line dollar FPDW in it only took me three days of play to get disqualified from all drawings and special events. I kind of soured on the Peppermill after that. I figured it was just a matter of time before they pulled everything from me.

But I had some friends that pounded the quarter NSUD with 1% meters running on the royal flush, 4 deuces, and wild royal. The play lasted for months. I couldn't figure out why I drew heat and they didn't. But I knew the casino hosts were highly trained to cull out advantage players and start disqualifying them from things.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
gpac1377
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August 9th, 2013 at 6:27:49 PM permalink
In every way, I felt more comfortable at Atlantis than Peppermill.

My first visit to Reno, only a few years ago, at Peppermill I played something near $10,000 coin-in, then walked in to VIP to ask for a room. The host got on the phone and was speaking in a language that sounded like Russian. Then he turned to me and switched back to English, saying he wanted me to experience the best of the property. He comped me to the Tuscany tower, and it was pretty awesome for a standard room. It had a lot of chairs.

The next time I phoned VIP to set up a return visit, they were like, you must have the wrong number.

But I liked Atlantis ... played there a bunch of times and they never no-mailed me, although I'm not sure that's something to be proud of, lol.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
AxelWolf
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August 10th, 2013 at 1:33:57 AM permalink
Off the top of my head...... DJ I know you like to eat so you will appreciate this. In the Early 90's some places comped you on your buy-ins win lose or recycle a total of $500 -$700 got you dinner for 2 depending on the place. They did this for Rooms and other things as well.

As mentioned before Flush Attack along with House a Rockin ,Max Attack Were the most fun and lasted for years. Well Worth over 50k a year.

Sigma $ slot BONUS RUN, day one tons of fun and worth $800 a day or more. Day 60 violent Asians, Physical fighting, death threats and new gun owners.

Frontier had $1 FPDW, tons of good progressives including a hand feed with credits(you better be a fast player) .25 6 coin progressive the 6th coin went to the 3 progressive meters 4oak, STFL, RF (9/6 JOB) (talk about variance) 4oak would reach over $150 often, STFL would get to over $1500 ,RF would be seen at 10k. They had a 125 coin bonus for paycheck cashing along with mailed bonuses for different hands.

Laughlin had some Sigma 9/6 bingo poker, Sigma .25 Deuces wild Bonus progressives that reached 7k $1 got to 20k
They had fun books with 125 bonuses on 4oak , given out at the mall to anyone. you could play a few each day at the beginning
They had Double on straight flushes Wild cards included.

Rio had a Cash is king month long promotion for a few years in a row where every time you hit for $25 on any machine you revived a scratch card half of them were cash winners $5 to $100 non winning scratch cards became drawing ticket top prize was 20k and multiple 1k winners. Change people were camped out near certain machines. I didn't hear of anyone losing.

Texas Station had double 4 of a kinds 125 coins max for a few days $5 denomination .

Ellis island had Double 4 of a kinds no max but limited to $1 machines. Bonus poker deluxe was descent

Sahara throughout the years ran Double on Royals , Double on Hand pays they had Full pay machines like FPDW., 2 to 1 on blackjacks table max.
They had $50 bonuses on specific 4oak with a easy to get coupon (trade Mexican day laborers a beer coupon) no limit to how many you could play. They paid it with all wild cards on 5 cents. $10 Aces free $50 to their famous steak house.

Hard Rock had Double on Hand pays, 2 to 1 on blackjacks

Gold Coast had a week of hit a top hand pay jackpot and receive double on your next hand-pay JP and a jacket or 40 bucks worth of gifts. Fiesta did this as well but lasted only till the morning ....I wonder why?

Fiesta had $1 10/7 with progressive meters.

MOST INTERESTING was a STRIP CLUB, 4-7 % on a month long dollar VP ,KENO, SLOT Play. Try playing VP with multiple grinding strippers on each side of you, NO JOKE. Then try to explain to your GF how your not having fun. Then bring your GF in to play and ward them away. Me, "I'm sory im with my GF."
Stripper, "That's ok its 2 for 1"
Manager "Your GF should give stripping a try she would make a lot of money" Me she doesn't do drugs, have a child or daddy issues and already finished college. Manager You just described my last 3 GF's
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
teddys
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August 10th, 2013 at 5:23:15 AM permalink
LOL, dude, that was pretty awesome! Would love to read more.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
gpac1377
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August 10th, 2013 at 7:35:26 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Off the top of my head...... Early 90's some places comped you on your buy-ins win lose or recycle a total of $500 -$700 got you dinner for 2 depending on the place. They did this for Rooms and other things as well.


I remember reading about that sort of thing. Basically the idea was to never play the same money more than once. You would receive credit for buying rolls of coins, feed them through once and cash out (assuming the machine held credits). Then repeat. Not very glamorous, but convenient if you needed a room or food.

Quote: AxelWolf

Texas Station had double 4 of a kinds 125 coins max for a few days $5 denomination.


Wow. I refuse to calculate the hourly on that. I don't want to know.

Beyond everything that's been mentioned, I would guess "mistakes" were more common, such as non-resetting progressives and slot club points set for the wrong denomination.

But despite the favorable conditions, I'm sure a lot of AP's were able to squander their winnings nevertheless.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
mickeycrimm
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August 10th, 2013 at 1:24:15 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

LOL, dude, that was pretty awesome! Would love to read more.



AxelWolf put so many plays in his post it's hard to cover them all. I didn't learn my first machine play until Oct. 1996. Then, being around the advantage slots all the time, I met a lot of hustler's (sharp machine players). I got told a lot of stories. One of those stories was about a crew out of Las Vegas called the "Change Boys." The story went that they started out in their early twenties pushing change carts in the casinos. But they quickly developed into very strong AP's. And they partnered up and put down some very strong team play on a lot of big time plays. All the hustler's knew about them. And the story went that they had even incorporated.

I think it was in 1997 or 1998, I was working the 18 machine linked bank of Flush Attack in the Riverside in Laughlin. Another hustler told me that the change boys were in the house. "Let me guess" I said "They're in the high roller room working the $5 8/5 Jacks progressive." I went to take a look. I had been told that the change boys came in on that play when the meter hit $42,000. There were only two machines so they locked both of them up until the royal was hit. I went and took a look but didn't recognize the two players. I'm sure the rest of the crew was up in the room getting some sleep. The royal was gone within 24 hours and so were the change boys.

I finally met one of the change boys on the Acres Gaming Double Time play at the Pioneer in Laughlin in April/May 2002. I had a super strong play working, about 180%. He came in, figured it out in about two seconds, and grabbed a seat. He also had his girlfriend playing. We played it until it petered out.

AxelWolf and me know at least a few strong hustlers in common. Danny the Hat, Randy M., and Dan B. I was good friends with all three. AxelWolf hasn't totally confirmed it but I think he was one of the change boys.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
djatc
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August 10th, 2013 at 5:30:51 PM permalink
I remember seeing the "buyin and cashout" tip from Hard Eight. Crazy how that actually worked back in the day.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
AxelWolf
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August 10th, 2013 at 5:50:18 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

I remember reading about that sort of thing. Basically the idea was to never play the same money more than once. You would receive credit for buying rolls of coins, feed them through once and cash out (assuming the machine held credits). Then repeat. Not very glamorous, but convenient if you needed a room or food.
.

Well you really didn't have to PLAY at all. I was not about the the Glamour I only guess it had the same high feeling as a kleptomaniac might get when they are in the act
. However you could impress a date with a nice steak and lobster dinner and hotel suite.

DJ what you seen was this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgEApN9ap0A&feature=share and it was nothing like this.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mickeycrimm
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August 11th, 2013 at 11:38:08 AM permalink
Draw Till U Win was a strong video poker play coming in at 103.2%. It was found on the Bally Gamemakers. The game had come out in 1999 but I didn't learn about it until 2002. By that time the game had been torched out of Las Vegas. I figured the game was probably torched out of the Reno area too but I might find the game along I-80. There were plenty of casinos along I-80 but I also knew that a lot of the bars and truck stops were filled up with Gamemakers. But first I'll explain the game.

Draw Till U Win was 6/5 Double Bonus with a feature called "draw till u win." Anytime your final hand contained four straight flush cards you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. It had to be a non paying hand to trigger the draw till u win feature. If you made a straight that contained 4 straight flush cards it didn't qualify because you already received a pay. Only a non paying hand that contained 4 straight flush cards qualified. It didn't matter if the 4SF was open ended or gutshot. This is how strong the draw was. Say your final hand was 5H-6H-7H-8H-X. You get to throw away the X card and draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. In the example there are only 15 pay cards, 6 straight cards, 7 flush cards, and 2 straight flush cards. So the worst hand you could make was a straight. And the frequency on the straight flush was just 7.5.

And anytime your final hand contained four royal flush cards you got to draw until you hit a pay. Just like in the 4SF example it had to be a non-paying 4RF. If your final hand was As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7d then you got to throw the 7 away and draw until you hit a pay. The pay cards are: 1 RF card, 8 flush cards, 3 Straight cards, 9 HP cards. So the frequency on hitting the royal was just 21 instead of 47 in normal double bonus. And the draw could be even stronger than that as you may have thrown some of those pay cards away on the initial deal.

Also, on the initial deal you were allowed to break paying hands. If your initial deal was 5S-6S-7S-8S-9H, you could throw the 9 away. The same was true for a 4RF on the initial deal.

The overall effect of the draw till u win feature was the overall royal frequency was reduced to 9700 and the straight flush frequency was reduced to 1050. The royal represented 8.25% of the payback so you were racing against about a 5% drain on your way to hitting a royal.

I found the game in Fernley, Fallon, Minden, Elko, Yerrington, and Carlin. I had to write the strategy with a calculator and scratch paper. If you put in the hours you literally averaged a royal a day. That was the downfall of the game. It got the attention of slot operations really quick. At Stockmen's in Elko I snapped off three royals in four hours one day. It's just a little sawdust joint and they payed me for the last royal in twenties. I decided I better get out of Elko for awhile. After that I would just hit one or two royals in a place then move on to the next place, just keep circulating around.

When I found the game on 6 machines in the Carson Valley Inn in Minden I sat down and promptly hit a royal. While I was waiting on the hand pay the floor attendent told me I should play the machine beside me. "Why?" I asked. "Some guy hit 6 royals between these two machines last night" she said. I racked my brain trying to figure out who that player might be. I came back the next day and the game was gone.

I worked the game at Stockmen's in Fallon without drawing any heat. Doug Reul showed up and told me he was the player in Minden who hit the 6 royals. He said they called Gaming on him. He had to explain to the dumasses how he hit 6 royals in 4 hours. They let him go but he still got 86'd.

I invited my friend, Al, to come to Fallon and play DTUW. He went off four 4 royals in four hours and that was the end of DTUW in Fallon. In Yerrington they comped Al and me in with RFB while we were pounding away. They finally got tired of us though. It was a fun game while it lasted.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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August 11th, 2013 at 12:08:25 PM permalink
I forgot to mention the DTUW in the truck stop in Wells, Nevada. The game was there but it wasn't. It was a little 30 machine casino with one floor attendant and 4 Gamemakers. You could walk into the casino and some guy would be playing DTUW. You could check the other three Gamemakers and DTUW wasn't on those machines. Then you come back later, the guy is gone, you try to punch up DTUW and the game isn't there. The only way that can happen is the floor attendant is keying the game up for the player....and once the guy is through playing, the game is keyed back off. They were using DTUW to skim that little casino....and they weren't cutting anyone else in on the deal.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
gpac1377
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August 11th, 2013 at 12:24:43 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

Draw Till U Win was a strong video poker play coming in at 103.2%. It was found on the Bally Gamemakers.


I'm trying to get an idea of the strategy difficulty. Do you have any idea what the game's return would be for a typical player?

As I understand, All American/250 existed at 102.97%, but the strategy was quite challenging. I never saw the game, so I don't know whether it was offered standalone or on Gamemakers.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
mickeycrimm
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August 11th, 2013 at 1:49:46 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

I'm trying to get an idea of the strategy difficulty. Do you have any idea what the game's return would be for a typical player?

As I understand, All American/250 existed at 102.97%, but the strategy was quite challenging. I never saw the game, so I don't know whether it was offered standalone or on Gamemakers.



I packed the strategy around for a couple of years after the game went extinct but I eventually misplaced it. My guess is if you used regular 6/5 double bonus strategy the game would come in between 98 and 99%. In DTUW all RF3's played over all high pairs, even Aces. An RF2 played over a ST4H3. And all the SF3's, even SF3-2, played over all the low pairs. And some of the SF3's played over high pairs that weren't Aces.

Incidentally, one of the oddities of this game was you could hold a low pair and come up with a straight flush. Say if you held a pair of 7's and caught three straight flush cards to one of the 7's you got to draw until you hit a pay. Which meant that you could hold a pair of Ten's and come up with a royal flush. I never accomplished that feat. Tom Ski is the only player I know of that converted that hand.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
tringlomane
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August 11th, 2013 at 2:18:54 PM permalink
This is a great read Mickey, thanks! Too bad I was too young for most of these plays... :(
AxelWolf
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August 11th, 2013 at 2:27:17 PM permalink
Ii i rememner right Frontier had them with a double str8 flush promotion. Fist time I seen them

The IP had them at the bar however there was far better things at the time
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mickeycrimm
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August 11th, 2013 at 2:55:54 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

If i remember right Frontier had them with a double str8 flush promotion. First time I seen them. The IP had them at the bar however there was far better things at the time



Yes, a friend of mine told me about working DTUW on that double pay for straight flushes promo at the Frontier. He said he read about the promo in the RJ and went to the Frontier looking for maybe 10/7 double bonus to play. He didn't know about DTUW. But he seen a line of about 12 Gamemakers and practically all the machines were being played by people he recognized as VP pros. So he went over and asked them what was going on. They cut him in on the deal. I think he said the promo was for 7 days. Anyways, however long it was supposed to last the Frontier didn't cancel the promo. They paid off all the way until the end. It was a 108% play.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
gpac1377
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August 11th, 2013 at 3:09:23 PM permalink
The 100.72% version of All American returns only 97.34% using Jacks or Better strategy, for a difference approaching 3.5%, and according to my unreliable memory, short-coin players were penalized on both the royal and straight flush, so there was plenty of opportunity for the casino to turn a profit offering good games, assuming the AP's didn't monopolize the machines or attack the more ill-advised promotions.

But keep in mind that 15 to 20 years ago, information was very scarce. There was a decent amount of literature on blackjack, but vp was obscure.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
mickeycrimm
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August 11th, 2013 at 3:15:53 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

This is a great read Mickey, thanks! Too bad I was too young for most of these plays... :(



Thank you, tringlomane. I've got some more stories coming when I get the time.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
AxelWolf
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August 11th, 2013 at 3:20:20 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

The 100.72% version of All American returns only 97.34% using Jacks or Better strategy, for a difference approaching 3.5%, and according to my unreliable memory, short-coin players were penalized on both the royal and straight flush, so there was plenty of opportunity for the casino to turn a profit offering good games, assuming the AP's didn't monopolize the machines or attack the more ill-advised promotions.

But keep in mind that 15 to 20 years ago, information was very scarce. There was a decent amount of literature on blackjack, but vp was obscure.

Why do you think VP is 1 /100th of what it used to be? Oh waite you figured it out. It started out with. Skip's page / VP free then other boards and also so called consultants.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
JIMMYFOCKER
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August 11th, 2013 at 8:03:14 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Off the top of my head...... DJ I know you like to eat so you will appreciate this. In the Early 90's some places comped you on your buy-ins win lose or recycle a total of $500 -$700 got you dinner for 2 depending on the place. They did this for Rooms and other things as well.

As mentioned before Flush Attack along with House a Rockin ,Max Attack Were the most fun and lasted for years. Well Worth over 50k a year.

Sigma $ slot BONUS RUN, day one tons of fun and worth $800 a day or more. Day 60 violent Asians, Physical fighting, death threats and new gun owners.

Frontier had $1 FPDW, tons of good progressives including a hand feed with credits(you better be a fast player) .25 6 coin progressive the 6th coin went to the 3 progressive meters 4oak, STFL, RF (9/6 JOB) (talk about variance) 4oak would reach over $150 often, STFL would get to over $1500 ,RF would be seen at 10k. They had a 125 coin bonus for paycheck cashing along with mailed bonuses for different hands.

Laughlin had some Sigma 9/6 bingo poker, Sigma .25 Deuces wild Bonus progressives that reached 7k $1 got to 20k
They had fun books with 125 bonuses on 4oak , given out at the mall to anyone. you could play a few each day at the beginning
They had Double on straight flushes Wild cards included.

Rio had a Cash is king month long promotion for a few years in a row where every time you hit for $25 on any machine you revived a scratch card half of them were cash winners $5 to $100 non winning scratch cards became drawing ticket top prize was 20k and multiple 1k winners. Change people were camped out near certain machines. I didn't hear of anyone losing.

Texas Station had double 4 of a kinds 125 coins max for a few days $5 denomination .

Ellis island had Double 4 of a kinds no max but limited to $1 machines. Bonus poker deluxe was descent

Sahara throughout the years ran Double on Royals , Double on Hand pays they had Full pay machines like FPDW., 2 to 1 on blackjacks table max.
They had $50 bonuses on specific 4oak with a easy to get coupon (trade Mexican day laborers a beer coupon) no limit to how many you could play. They paid it with all wild cards on 5 cents. $10 Aces free $50 to their famous steak house.

Hard Rock had Double on Hand pays, 2 to 1 on blackjacks

Gold Coast had a week of hit a top hand pay jackpot and receive double on your next hand-pay JP and a jacket or 40 bucks worth of gifts. Fiesta did this as well but lasted only till the morning ....I wonder why?

Fiesta had $1 10/7 with progressive meters.

MOST INTERESTING was a STRIP CLUB, 4-7 % on a month long dollar VP ,KENO, SLOT Play. Try playing VP with multiple grinding strippers on each side of you, NO JOKE. Then try to explain to your GF how your not having fun. Then bring your GF in to play and ward them away. Me, "I'm sory im with my GF."
Stripper, "That's ok its 2 for 1"
Manager "Your GF should give stripping a try she would make a lot of money" Me she doesn't do drugs, have a child or daddy issues and already finished college. Manager You just described my last 3 GF's



Did all those plays, with the exception of the Strip Club.

Who were some of the pros that you knew personally that played Bonus Run at the Sands and Imperial Palace?
JIMMYFOCKER
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August 11th, 2013 at 8:08:56 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

AxelWolf put so many plays in his post it's hard to cover them all. I didn't learn my first machine play until Oct. 1996. Then, being around the advantage slots all the time, I met a lot of hustler's (sharp machine players). I got told a lot of stories. One of those stories was about a crew out of Las Vegas called the "Change Boys." The story went that they started out in their early twenties pushing change carts in the casinos. But they quickly developed into very strong AP's. And they partnered up and put down some very strong team play on a lot of big time plays. All the hustler's knew about them. And the story went that they had even incorporated.

I think it was in 1997 or 1998, I was working the 18 machine linked bank of Flush Attack in the Riverside in Laughlin. Another hustler told me that the change boys were in the house. "Let me guess" I said "They're in the high roller room working the $5 8/5 Jacks progressive." I went to take a look. I had been told that the change boys came in on that play when the meter hit $42,000. There were only two machines so they locked both of them up until the royal was hit. I went and took a look but didn't recognize the two players. I'm sure the rest of the crew was up in the room getting some sleep. The royal was gone within 24 hours and so were the change boys.

I finally met one of the change boys on the Acres Gaming Double Time play at the Pioneer in Laughlin in April/May 2002. I had a super strong play working, about 180%. He came in, figured it out in about two seconds, and grabbed a seat. He also had his girlfriend playing. We played it until it petered out.

AxelWolf and me know at least a few strong hustlers in common. Danny the Hat, Randy M., and Dan B. I was good friends with all three. AxelWolf hasn't totally confirmed it but I think he was one of the change boys.

Know Danny, Randy, and Dan very well, been on numerous plays with all of them.
AxelWolf
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August 11th, 2013 at 9:02:33 PM permalink
Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Know Danny, Randy, and Dan very well, been on numerous plays with all of them.

I feel mentioning peoples names on a public forum is not in their best interest. We all ready have enough rats that warn casinos.The Last thing we need is to provide them with more names. I don't even like saying names of public AP's if I can help it.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
boymimbo
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August 11th, 2013 at 9:09:23 PM permalink
This is a great read. I felt special playing the the DW progressive at the Peppermill a couple of summers ago when the progressive for the deuces was up over $500 on a quarter machine. I simply plugged in the pay table to the Wizard's VP calculator upstairs in the room and figured I had about a 3% advantage and went for it and hit it.

But that's about the best I've done for 'advantage' VP play. Keep the stories coming.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
boymimbo
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August 11th, 2013 at 9:09:23 PM permalink
This is a great read. I felt special playing the the DW progressive at the Peppermill a couple of summers ago when the progressive for the deuces was up over $500 on a quarter machine. I simply plugged in the pay table to the Wizard's VP calculator upstairs in the room and figured I had about a 3% advantage and went for it and hit it.

But that's about the best I've done for 'advantage' VP play. Keep the stories coming.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
djatc
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August 11th, 2013 at 9:17:04 PM permalink
Not as awesome as the posts here but:

I found a casino in WA state that hands out free food every night. They don't seem to care who eats there as long as you are gambling lol.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
AxelWolf
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August 11th, 2013 at 9:35:57 PM permalink
Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Did all those plays, with the exception of the Strip Club.

Who were some of the pros that you knew personally that played Bonus Run at the Sands and Imperial Palace?

You did all them plays ? Dam I must have been sleeping with you. Glad you didn't snap any of the progressives off. Who were you sleeping with to get on the draw till you win during double STF?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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August 11th, 2013 at 9:40:29 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

Not as awesome as the posts here but:

I found a casino in WA state that hands out free food every night. They don't seem to care who eats there as long as you are gambling lol.

Loco moco? You will just get FAT and LAZY.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tringlomane
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August 11th, 2013 at 9:51:11 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

Not as awesome as the posts here but:

I found a casino in WA state that hands out free food every night. They don't seem to care who eats there as long as you are gambling lol.



If their central determining system only returned in the low 90s even for video poker, it's not a bad idea to give free food. :P The IP poker room used to give out cookies...lol They were pretty good when I was playing there and drunk after 11 hours of mix game play. :)
JIMMYFOCKER
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August 11th, 2013 at 9:58:08 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

You did all them plays ? Dam I must have been sleeping with you. Glad you didn't snap any of the progressives off. Who were you sleeping with to get on the draw till you win during double STF?

Nobody, did it entirely myself.
AxelWolf
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August 12th, 2013 at 12:34:49 AM permalink
Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Nobody, did it entirely myself.

I think you missed my point because some of them plays were at the same time and ended quickly being by yourself would have made it hard to be in 2 places at once.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mickeycrimm
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August 12th, 2013 at 1:31:47 AM permalink
Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Who were some of the pros that you knew personally that played Bonus Run at the Sands and Imperial Palace?



Ali from Pakistan. I haven't seen him in a ton of years. But him and I became good friends. He was more of an American gambler than me. I met him at buck bingo in the Western. I also seen him living in the homeless camp at St. Vincent's one day when I went down to there to get a free meal. He didn't see me but I seen him. Ali was a bullshit artist. He picked up on the advantage gambling just a little bit before me. He shot to the moon but I was still on the street. But in the end I shocked the hell out of him. We've been friends ever since.

Ali could always get himself into unusual situations. He married a crack head Mississippi white girl in Laughlin. A Pakistani and a redneck girl. What an awesone combination. She was a total flake. Ali asked me if I was gonna go to his wedding. "Ali, you're on your own with this one, buddy" was my response. I had a ton of respect for him, but none for her. And I'm a Mississippi boy.

The last time I seen Ali was leading up to the Acres's Gaming Double Time installation at the Pioneer in April 2002. We were all hole'd up in Laughlin waiting for those asshole's to install the program. Ali had came to work the double time from Riudoso, New Mexico where he had some plays working. He had left his wife back in Riudoso to take care of business while he was gone. About the time they started installing the double time Ali tells us "I have to go back to Riudoso. My wife is in jail."

That's the last time I ever seen Ali. But he is my lifetime friend.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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August 12th, 2013 at 12:45:07 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

But keep in mind that 15 to 20 years ago, information was very scarce. There was a decent amount of literature on blackjack, but vp was obscure.



I got the idea that video poker could be beaten from Lenny Frome in the early to mid nineties. I was playing $1 to $5 Seven Card Stud Hi-Lo Split 8 or Better in the summers around the mountain states. Places like Deadwood, Cripple Creek, Blackhawk, Albuquerque. And I even made a trip back east and played in Tama, Iowa and Mount Pleasant, Michigan. Cardplayer Magazine was distributed in the poker rooms on a bi-weekly basis. I read it from cover to cover. Lenny was the video poker columnist in the magazine. He wrote a lot about FPDW, publishing the payback percentage and giving strategy tips.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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August 12th, 2013 at 1:52:51 PM permalink
Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Did all those plays, with the exception of the Strip Club.



AxelWolf's story about the strip club was hilarious. I have a somewhat similar story. This was about 2004. Al and me were on a quarter full pay joker spin poker play with a card of the day at the Atlantis in Reno. Some friend of Al comes walking up and tells Al that there is a rumor going around that there is a dollar Draw Till U Win in a bar somewhere on Virginia Street. Al stews over it for a few minutes then looks at me and says "I gotta go find it." He jumped in a cab and hit every bar on Virginia Street until he found it....in a gay bar. He paid the cab driver off and started playing. About 4 hours later he hit a royal. They had to call the slot route operator for him to get paid. The slot route guy showed up, paid Al off, then keyed the game off the machine. So Al came back to the Atlantis and told me the story. "Did you get hit on?" I asked. "It's the first time in my life I've ever been hit on by a drag queen." he responded
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
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