New Video Poker Game....Looking for feedback
This is my very first post on the forums and I would like to get everyone's feedback, both good and bad, about one of my new video poker games that just received a notice of allowance from the US Patent Office. The game is called Bonus Discard Poker and I have a short video that explains how the basic game is played. There are a number of other options written into the patent and it allows the game to be adjusted to make it appealing to both the casinos and players.
BonusDiscardPoker Video for 5 Card hand
In case I didn't do the above link correctly, the address to the video is: http://youtu.be/8KBg0hvcyDw
Bonus Discard Poker 3 Card Discard Demo
Thanks for your feedback.
RealizeGaming
Quote: IbeatyouracesHow many extra credits does it cost to initiate the discard hand bonus?
I don't have the exact amount, but in talking with several other people in the industry they feel that it would only be a few extra credits.
Quote: cardsharkLove this idea! I can't wait to try this game out. Be sure to keep us in the loop if and when this game hits the casino floor. Good luck!
Thanks! I wish I would have had a demo of the game produced, but I used those resources to get demos of my other two games. Both should be allowed by the patent office later this month, so I will have to post the demos for you to try out.
I will definitely keep you updated.
I like games with strategies that are difficult, but not to the point that an unskilled player has no chance. Your game is probably somewhere near the ideal.
In general I prefer multi-play formats, which unfortunately may not be easily compatible with your product.
Finally, it looks like the top jackpot (4000x800) exceeds 3 million coins. Wouldn't that be a major liability concern for most casinos? Casinos are not in the business of gambling.
Quote: ParadigmMy guess is you would just receive the normal JoB payout on the first hand with a non-qualifier on the discard hand. Otherwise you wouldn't need to pay for the discard hand via extra credits and/or the normal payout schedule on the primary hand would have to be vastly inflated.....I may be missing something here.
You are correct. There are a few variations, but the main game is played by always paying the main hand regardless of the outcome on the bonus hand. I also had another version of the game where if you lose in the main hand, but end up winning in the discard hand, you would add those points into your credit pool. This is not a huge amount, but it softens the blow when the player gets a good discard hand and a non-winner in the main hand.
Quote: gpac1377Looks good.
I like games with strategies that are difficult, but not to the point that an unskilled player has no chance. Your game is probably somewhere near the ideal.
In general I prefer multi-play formats, which unfortunately may not be easily compatible with your product.
Finally, it looks like the top jackpot (4000x800) exceeds 3 million coins. Wouldn't that be a major liability concern for most casinos? Casinos are not in the business of gambling.
Thanks. I tend to like games where I have to think a little bit, too.
I have the patent written where it can be played with several discard hands so that you can have up to 4 additional discard hands, assuming you keep one card in the main hand, and one main hand. This provides some excitement if you win in the main hand, you have 4 discard hands that could help multiply the winning main hand. If you win in more than one discard hand, those wins are added together to create your multiplier.
I have a few ways to play this that I would like to show the triple play company!
Pay scales are totally adjustable in the patent.
Quote: IbeatyouracesSince I have some down time in my hotel room, I'm playing this game with my deck of cards.
Thanks for all the excitement, but please tell me you are not in a Las Vegas Hotel! You need to be downstairs hitting the machines!
Quote: IbeatyouracesSo far after about fifty hands my discard hand ended up with a multiplier once, a pair of aces for a 1x. This is going to be tough.
I think the multipliers for the discard hand need to be adjusted to really create excitement in the game. I would like to see the game pay x2 for a pair of jacks or better instead of 1. I didn't get the math done on this game yet, but I believe that the amount of coins needed to play, along with the pay scale adjustment would make both player and casino happy.
Quote: MathExtremistIf you lose in the discard hand, does that mean the discard payout is zero? Does that zero multiply whatever you win above, making your total payout zero even if you have a winning main hand? If so, you may not need to charge anything for the feature, but you'll make a lot of people angry when they don't get paid on most winners...
Originally, I thought about using the zero multiplier, but it would be very upsetting. As of right now, you always get the main hand win...it will never go down, or be multiplied by zero.
Quote: IbeatyouracesJust took a break after finally hitting a two pair, two pair.
I really wish I would have gotten it made into a demo. It is a giant pain to deal out on the table. Unfortunately, my resources for creating a demo went into two other games that should be allowed by the patent office later this month.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'm sure once you get someone to work in the math with you, you'll get it tweaked just right. Once you do I can see this being a popular game.
Thanks for your feedback.
Quote: bigfoot66You state in the video that this game does not require strategy changes but that is not at all obvious. For example, if you offered a Double Double Bonus paytable where 2 pairs pays 1 for 1, if you had a hand like QKh QKs 3c you may well split the two pairs which you would never do in traditional DDB. In fact, it is not obvious that you would never break up a dealt full house. Have you had the game analyzed by a gaming mathematician?
I guess it would be possible that players may play the game somewhat different than normal strategy. I may split up the full house, but a lot of it depends on the pay scale.
I haven't had the game analyzed by a mathematician just yet, but I know it needs to be done.
Quote: bigfoot66You state in the video that this game does not require strategy changes but that is not at all obvious. For example, if you offered a Double Double Bonus paytable where 2 pairs pays 1 for 1, if you had a hand like QKh QKs 3c you may well split the two pairs which you would never do in traditional DDB. In fact, it is not obvious that you would never break up a dealt full house. Have you had the game analyzed by a gaming mathematician?
Yeah strategies will likely change, to what extent, I'm not sure. Splitting all two pairs could become correct for DDB, I really have no idea.
Also, in the video, if a non-zero multiplier applies to every hand, then it should read: "All Other Hands 1"
As noted earlier:
Quote: gpac1377Finally, it looks like the top jackpot (4000x800) exceeds 3 million coins. Wouldn't that be a major liability concern for most casinos? Casinos are not in the business of gambling.
Yeah, this is definitely a concern.
Also, before casinos can even worry about that, the game would generally NOT be legal in it's current state because of it. Obviously I don't know exact strategy for the JoB version, but let's assume high pair always beats 3 to a Royal for the math below AND a dealt straight of 2 suits should NOT be broken since it is a straight, obv. Therefore the only hands capable of making 2 Royal Flushes are 4 to a Royal flush with an Ace through Ten kicker, OR a 3 Royal/2 Royal combo with a pair of tens. (e.g. AsKsTsThQh), or a dealt Royal followed by a discard Royal.
Probability of Making Royals in both hands:
Probability of being dealt 4 to a Royal with a 5th Royal card of another suit:
4*C(5,4)*3*C(5,1)/C(52,5) = 300/2,598,960 = 1 in 8663.2
Probability of completing both Royals given this deal:
1/C(5,1)/C(47,5) = 1 in 7,669,695
Probability of both Royals hitting on the 4 to a Royal/1 to a Royal draw on any given hand:
300/2,598,960/7,669,695 = 1.505e-11 = 1 in 66,444,101,724
Now lets look at the 3 Royal/2 Royal breakdown
Probability of a pair of Tens with a 3 Royal/2 Royal suit breakdown:
4*C(4,2)*3*C(2,1)/C(52,5) = 144/2,598,960 = 18048.33333
Probability of Completing both Royals given this deal:
1/C(5,2)/C(47,5) = 1 in 15,339,390
Probability of both Royals hitting on a 3 to a Royal/2 to a Royal draw on any given hand:
144/2,598,960/15,339,390 = 3.612e-12 = 1 in 276,850,423,850
Probability of Dealt Royal:
4/C(52,5) = 1 in 649,740
Probability of Discard Royal:
3/C(47,5) = 1 in 511,313
Probability of a dealt and discard Royal:
1/649,740/511,313 = 3.01e-12 = 332,220,508,620
Total Probability of both Royals hitting on any given hand:
1/66,444,101,724 + 1/276,850,423,850 + 1/332,220,508,620 = 1 in 46,141,737,308.33
So that's a top prize probability of 1 in every 46.1 billion deals. In many states, you need to increase the probability of this happening by a factor of about 1000 for the game to be legal (1 in 50M for many states; as strict as 1 in 17M for some).
But it's not that hard to fix, however. You could just do something similar to what Roger Snow and the guys at SHFL did to the 6-Card Poker two-way bad beat. Truncate the max multiplier when you reach a high enough hand class like described at the end of the thread below. Also note that in Ultimate X Poker, the maximum multiplier is on a full house for a similar reason. Putting the max multiplier on the Royal would make Ultimate X generally illegal too. And in Double Super Times Pay, a dealt Royal with any deal multiplier awarded automatically awards the max prize (Royal at 20X) to be legal.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/9658-six-card-poker/
BTW, I think this could be a really fun game with the right tweaking!
Quote: tringlomane... the game would generally NOT be legal in it's current state because of it.
Fascinating post, thank you. I didn't realize there were so many details to the design regulations.
Are there any other games that use the concept of two results, multiplied together? I think Big Split has an element of similarity, but the Big Split pay schedules max out at much lower levels, especially on the secondary hand.
Quote: IbeatyouracesJust from me playing this all day with my deck of cards using JoB as the game and just following optimal strategy for regular JoB, the hit rate for getting a multiplier is going to be low. The best I could muster all day was making two pair for the regular hand and a straight for the discard hand. I think overall I made 3 multiplied hands.
Yeah one problem is you are going to throw a lot of garbage into the discard box most of the time. With JoB, I would think it would be 3 singletons, generally unconnected with the occasional high card most of the time. When the 3 disconnected singletons occur with no high cards, this will only lead to a trips multiplier at best and will only occur 1 in 120.11
Quote: gpac1377
Are there any other games that use the concept of two results, multiplied together? I think Big Split has an element of similarity, but the Big Split pay schedules max out at much lower levels, especially on the secondary hand.
Yeah a 3 Card hand is the multiplier, so you max out the multiplier much more often.
The max multiplier is 3 of a kind:
Ways to make a Royal: 4
Ways to make 3 of a kind with the other 3 cards: (8*4 +5*1) = 37
Total Ways to make Royal + Trips = 4*37 = 148
Total Deals: C(52,8) = 52!/44!/8! = 752,538,150
Probability of Royal + Trips:
148/752,538,150 = 1 in ~5,084,717
Quote: tringlomaneYeah a 3 Card hand is the multiplier, so you max out the multiplier much more often.
The max multiplier is 3 of a kind:
Ways to make a Royal: 4
Ways to make 3 of a kind with the other 3 cards: (8*4 +5*1) = 37
Total Ways to make Royal + Trips = 4*37 = 148
Total Deals: C(52,8) = 52!/44!/8! = 752,538,150
Probability of Royal + Trips:
148/752,538,150 = 1 in ~5,084,717
True, but the odds are somewhat shorter in the Deuces Wild version. I was sitting next to my friend in the Peppermill about eight years ago when he was dealt five royal cards, two deuces and a random card. It took him a few seconds to figure out what he had but he worked it out for 60,000 credits (dimes). I was shocked that the machine didn't lock up and hold the eight cards properly since I always thought that when the highest possible payout was dealt, the cards got autoheld. Evidently not.
Hask
Quote: haskTrue, but the odds are somewhat shorter in the Deuces Wild version. I was sitting next to my friend in the Peppermill about eight years ago when he was dealt five royal cards, two deuces and a random card. It took him a few seconds to figure out what he had but he worked it out for 60,000 credits (dimes). I was shocked that the machine didn't lock up and hold the eight cards properly since I always thought that when the highest possible payout was dealt, the cards got autoheld. Evidently not.
Hask
Wow, yeah, it probably should lock up, but I have yet to see a state legally require such a feature. The IGT double up feature will let you be suicidal on a Royal as well, up to 20,000 credits I have read.
Hands like this is why I likely wouldn't play Big Split very fast even if I played it a lot. The game idea by OP should play out much faster, fortunately. :)
Quote: IbeatyouracesJust from me playing this all day with my deck of cards using JoB as the game and just following optimal strategy for regular JoB, the hit rate for getting a multiplier is going to be low. The best I could muster all day was making two pair for the regular hand and a straight for the discard hand. I think overall I made 3 multiplied hands.
It is very surprising how many times you don't get a multiplier. That's where I was unsure when determining a pay schedule for the discard hand. I'm sure once I get the math worked out it will be better.
Quote: tringlomaneYeah strategies will likely change, to what extent, I'm not sure. Splitting all two pairs could become correct for DDB, I really have no idea.
Also, in the video, if a non-zero multiplier applies to every hand, then it should read: "All Other Hands 1"
As noted earlier:
Yeah, this is definitely a concern.
Also, before casinos can even worry about that, the game would generally NOT be legal in it's current state because of it. Obviously I don't know exact strategy for the JoB version, but let's assume high pair always beats 3 to a Royal for the math below AND a dealt straight of 2 suits should NOT be broken since it is a straight, obv. Therefore the only hands capable of making 2 Royal Flushes are 4 to a Royal flush with an Ace through Ten kicker, OR a 3 Royal/2 Royal combo with a pair of tens. (e.g. AsKsTsThQh), or a dealt Royal followed by a discard Royal.
Probability of Making Royals in both hands:
Probability of being dealt 4 to a Royal with a 5th Royal card of another suit:
4*C(5,4)*3*C(5,1)/C(52,5) = 300/2,598,960 = 1 in 8663.2
Probability of completing both Royals given this deal:
1/C(5,1)/C(47,5) = 1 in 7,669,695
Probability of both Royals hitting on the 4 to a Royal/1 to a Royal draw on any given hand:
300/2,598,960/7,669,695 = 1.505e-11 = 1 in 66,444,101,724
Now lets look at the 3 Royal/2 Royal breakdown
Probability of a pair of Tens with a 3 Royal/2 Royal suit breakdown:
4*C(4,2)*3*C(2,1)/C(52,5) = 144/2,598,960 = 18048.33333
Probability of Completing both Royals given this deal:
1/C(5,2)/C(47,5) = 1 in 15,339,390
Probability of both Royals hitting on a 3 to a Royal/2 to a Royal draw on any given hand:
144/2,598,960/15,339,390 = 3.612e-12 = 1 in 276,850,423,850
Probability of Dealt Royal:
4/C(52,5) = 1 in 649,740
Probability of Discard Royal:
3/C(47,5) = 1 in 511,313
Probability of a dealt and discard Royal:
1/649,740/511,313 = 3.01e-12 = 332,220,508,620
Total Probability of both Royals hitting on any given hand:
1/66,444,101,724 + 1/276,850,423,850 + 1/332,220,508,620 = 1 in 46,141,737,308.33
So that's a top prize probability of 1 in every 46.1 billion deals. In many states, you need to increase the probability of this happening by a factor of about 1000 for the game to be legal (1 in 50M for many states; as strict as 1 in 17M for some).
But it's not that hard to fix, however. You could just do something similar to what Roger Snow and the guys at SHFL did to the 6-Card Poker two-way bad beat. Truncate the max multiplier when you reach a high enough hand class like described at the end of the thread below. Also note that in Ultimate X Poker, the maximum multiplier is on a full house for a similar reason. Putting the max multiplier on the Royal would make Ultimate X generally illegal too. And in Double Super Times Pay, a dealt Royal with any deal multiplier awarded automatically awards the max prize (Royal at 20X) to be legal.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/9658-six-card-poker/
BTW, I think this could be a really fun game with the right tweaking!
Yes, it should say that a non-zero multiplier is applied to every hand.
You guys amaze me with your math knowledge.
I have several other ideas and variations as a way to make the discard hand fair. Some of it will involve the math and some of it will be adjusting things to provide a fun and fair game. One other version I have in the patent calls for up to 4 discard hands. Once the player determines which cards he/she will discard, they can be placed in various discard hands. For instance, if I have two aces, a ten of clubs, a jack of hearts, and a king of spades, I would hold the two aces in the main hand and allow the "computer" to determine where the other discards go. I assume each of the discards would be in their own separate hand, so I would have a discard hand starting with a ten of clubs, another discard hand starting with a jack of hearts, and yet a third discard hand starting with a king of spades. Having the computer determine which cards go where after the player holds the given main hand will allow the game to be played at a decent speed and take some of the thinking out of it.
Quote: gpac1377Fascinating post, thank you. I didn't realize there were so many details to the design regulations.
Are there any other games that use the concept of two results, multiplied together? I think Big Split has an element of similarity, but the Big Split pay schedules max out at much lower levels, especially on the secondary hand.
Actually there is a lot of intellectual property on discard hands and secondary hands.
Quote: IbeatyouracesJust from me playing this all day with my deck of cards using JoB as the game and just following optimal strategy for regular JoB, the hit rate for getting a multiplier is going to be low. The best I could muster all day was making two pair for the regular hand and a straight for the discard hand. I think overall I made 3 multiplied hands.
I have a lot of flexibility on the pay scale for this game. Try the following if you are dealing this game at home:
If you want to really have fun with the game, try playing it with a 3 card poker pay scale for the discard hand. You would take the best 3 cards out of the 5 cards in the discard hand to get the multiplier. A lot of fun!
I use the following as the multiplier for the discard hand:
Straight Flush 40x
Three of a Kind 30x
Straight 6x
Flush 3x
Pair 1x
Quote: MathExtremistIf you lose in the discard hand, does that mean the discard payout is zero? Does that zero multiply whatever you win above, making your total payout zero even if you have a winning main hand? If so, you may not need to charge anything for the feature, but you'll make a lot of people angry when they don't get paid on most winners...
I was just going to say exactly this. If you always win 0 with garbage in the discard hand then I would change the discard pay table. I'd start with a multiplier of 1x for garbage and go up from there. Get a good mathematician to tell you the fair fee for this feature.
This would be a tough analysis, due to the immense number of combinations, so brace yourself to pay a lot.
Quote: WizardI was just going to say exactly this. If you always win 0 with garbage in the discard hand then I would change the discard pay table. I'd start with a multiplier of 1x for garbage and go up from there. Get a good mathematician to tell you the fair fee for this feature.
This would be a tough analysis, due to the immense number of combinations, so brace yourself to pay a lot.
I like the idea of paying times one for a garbage hand since it happens quite often.
I would rather look at using a good 3 or 4 card pay scale since this allows a better variety of multipliers and makes the game more exciting. Using the best 3 or 4 cards from the discards seems to help alleviate being stuck with using all discards to create a viable hand. Even though it helps the discard hand, the player still needs to win in the main hand in order to get the multiplier.
What is the average number of cards people discard when playing poker? I assume it is probably 3, but I'm not sure.
I wish I had more math knowledge to help me apply it to my games. I always feel that I have the gameplay in place, but I know the math is the most important aspect. About how much would I be looking at in order to get the math done on this game?
Thanks.
Quote: RealizeGaming
What is the average number of cards people discard when playing poker? I assume it is probably 3, but I'm not sure.
It's pretty close to that, but it will vary among game variants and paytables.
The Wizard recently analyzed this question for 9/5 Jacks or Better as part of his "Match Card Poker" page:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/match-card/
He found the average amount of discards was 2.919, so using the best three will yield better multiplier chances for sure.
Quote: tringlomaneIt's pretty close to that, but it will vary among game variants and paytables.
The Wizard recently analyzed this question for 9/5 Jacks or Better as part of his "Match Card Poker" page:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/match-card/
He found the average amount of discards was 2.919, so using the best three will yield better multiplier chances for sure.
I had a chance to review his analysis on Match Card Poker....simply amazing work!
I will have a demo of my game in a few days which uses the three card pay scale as an example for game play. I'm sure the pay scale will need adjustment, but using it will provide more excitement for the player. I will let everyone know when I have the demo.
Bonus Discard Poker
*Click on the cards you want to send to the primary hand and click deal to complete both hands.
This version of the game uses the three card poker hand to determine the multiplier. I'm sure the math needs to be adjusted, but I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about the game.
Jh 2s 2h 2c 3s - the ideal play may be to play Jack only since trips is a 30X multiplier
Ad Td 7h 8c 9c (Ad Td on top?) AT suited isn't too suboptimal in 9/6 JoB and you then have double the chances of making a SF in the bottom. I assumed either Ad or AdTd is better than OESD because a guaranteed 6X multiplier should be more valuable.
Tc Jh 6d Th Qh - hold all in the discard pile. You're guaranteed 40X - time to pray for a winner. I didn't get there. :( My other 40X hand came from 2h 3c Jh Ah 5s and I played Ah Jh, I think? I miraculously made a flush on top and a SF on bottom.
Well I'm enjoying this. I don't know if I'm just getting lucky, but I'm doing pretty nicely in the demo. Has some really weird feeling strategy that I suspect some people will give up on though.
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Ugh. Three of a kind and two junk cards. What to do, what to do... Gut reaction says to just take the win, but I think the 30x has a much higher yield.
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Seeing the discard hand get WAY more big multipliers than seeing winnings is kind of disheartening.
Quote: tringlomaneDemo is pretty good except, but you don't get credited for winners! The casino might like that in the short term...haha. Played 30 hands paying 300 credits to play, got 280 of them back with 29 hands, but got a whopping 1200 on one of the hands (flush w/3cd SF). As is I think the game probably pays > 100%, by how much I am unsure. The 10 credit a hand price is probably a good place to have the game. Also with the trips/SF 3 card payouts being so high, I think optimal strategy sometimes is unintuitive. Also since you are taking best 3 cards out of 5, I'm not sure if a straight is that much more difficult to make than a flush. Here are some hands I questioned.
Jh 2s 2h 2c 3s - the ideal play may be to play Jack only since trips is a 30X multiplier
Ad Td 7h 8c 9c (Ad Td on top?) AT suited isn't too suboptimal in 9/6 JoB and you then have double the chances of making a SF in the bottom. I assumed either Ad or AdTd is better than OESD because a guaranteed 6X multiplier should be more valuable.
Tc Jh 6d Th Qh - hold all in the discard pile. You're guaranteed 40X - time to pray for a winner. I didn't get there. :( My other 40X hand came from 2h 3c Jh Ah 5s and I played Ah Jh, I think? I miraculously made a flush on top and a SF on bottom.
I was hoping no one would notice the credits not adding up......all fixed now.
I definitely think taking the best 3 or 4 cards out of the 5 discards changes the strategy. (Although, I like this variation better!) When I first came up with the game I originally had a 5 card discard hand which didn't require you to think too much outside of the basic strategy you use in other poker games.
I do think that if I get trips or a straight flush, I keep that in the discard hand and keep my fingers crossed.
Quote: Venthus(Edits are being made in chronological order, after playing longer.)
Seeing the discard hand get WAY more big multipliers than seeing winnings is kind of disheartening.
That's one of the features that may not make people adjust their strategy too much....you have to win in the main hand in order to have the possibility of getting the multiplier.
Quote: RealizeGamingThat's one of the features that may not make people adjust their strategy too much....you have to win in the main hand in order to have the possibility of getting the multiplier.
I think I've gotten six or so Straight Flushes so far, without even snagging a pair on the main hand. Ah well. Still seems like it's a better idea to keep the multiplier high and hope for something decent.
I'm liking this so far though-- but I'm fairly certain that the paytable's going to have be toned down.
As a point of reference, I'm a casual VP player (craps and BJ mostly) with a decent grasp of numbers.
Quote: tringlomaneYeah, I like a 3 cd or 4 cd idea better. 5cd just makes mulitipliers too difficult to earn. 3cd makes multipliers a lot easier to earn, not sure if they are too easy slash too high valued right now.
It does feels like the multiplier is too high, but it can be adjusted with the right math.
Quote: VenthusI think I've gotten six or so Straight Flushes so far, without even snagging a pair on the main hand. Ah well. Still seems like it's a better idea to keep the multiplier high and hope for something decent.
I'm liking this so far though-- but I'm fairly certain that the paytable's going to have be toned down.
As a point of reference, I'm a casual VP player (craps and BJ mostly) with a decent grasp of numbers.
Glad you are enjoying it and thanks for your feedback.
Edit: I was likely mistaken, A234 came up again and highlighted 234 this time.
I got dealt quads just now...8888K. I am guessing I keep all here, but if it was something like 88887 I would discard 7 since it's better than average to make straights. Completely optimal strategy is going to be rough for this game.
