8/5 Jacks Or Better with Double Up

First of all, I'm a Video Poker noob.

I can't find any 9/6 Jacks Or Better machines at my home casino (Caesar's Windsor), the best I can find is 8/5 Jacks Or Better.

These machines have a Double Up feature. I assume you guys all know about the 'Double Up' feature but for those who don't, here is an example of how it works. If your hand is 2-pair, you win 10 credits (assuming 5 credit wager) and the game asks if you want to double up. If you chose yes, 5 cards are dealt face down. The first card is flipped face up and is the dealer's. The player then picks one of the other 4 cards. If the player's card is higher than the dealer, his win is doubled. If the cars the player's card is lower than the dealer, he loses. The player can keep doubling up an unlimited amount of times until he/she inevitably loses. If you Double up 3 times (and win), your 10 credit win turns into an 80 credit win. You can double up on any winning hand as far as I know.

Anyway, my question to you guys, is the Double Up feature on a video poker terminal worthwhile? Does it increase or decrease the overall vig on the game? Or is it completely neutral?

Is an 8/5 machine even worth my time? Or should I play something else until I find a 9/6 machine?

You should check out vpfree2.com http://www.vpfree2.com/casinos/by-region/canada.html

As for the double up I believe it's completely neutral.

Quote: whatme

You should check out vpfree2.com http://www.vpfree2.com/casinos/by-region/canada.html

As for the double up I believe it's completely neutral.

Yes, the double up is 50/50. The only thing it does is increase the volatility, which is a bankroll killer.

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Quote: CrystalMath

Yes, the double up is 50/50. The only thing it does is increase the volatility, which is a bankroll killer.

Yep. So if you like a swingier game than JoB, it's okay to occasionally play the feature since it costs nothing, but if you play it too much (and repetitively), you will either win big or go home quick.

id say its better playing the neutral double-up feature so u spend less time playing the base game itself.

Quote: rudeboyoi

id say its better playing the neutral double-up feature so u spend less time playing the base game itself.

I tend to agree with this. I would suggest that the double-up bet is most comparable to the Odds Bet in Craps, even though the concept is somewhat different because if you are playing the Double-Up bet, you have already won.

In terms of whether or not it is a good bet, if you are playing VP at a machine with a -ER, then you would technically want to make the Double-Up bet until the machine no longer allows you to do so. I play VP so rarely that I could be wrong about this, but I believe that I once won five Double-Ups in a row at which point I was forced to take the win. If you are playing VP at a paytable such that you are at +ER, or if you are at +ER once the comps/points for FP get factored in, (and I don't know if points are earned on that bet, but doubt it) then you would not want to play the Double-Up bet as a 100% ER actually hurts your overall ER on all of your play.

You're basically running the Reverse Marty on a coin toss, so I would say the amount of the Base Game win is a practical consideration when deciding whether or not to double-up. For example, maybe you would do so on a pair of Jacks, but not on a Straight Flush.

I believe when I won those five Double-Ups in a row, I was approaching the end of the $$$ that I had in the machine and was going for a quick recovery. Generally speaking, I usually try to Double-Up twice on a Pair, once on Two Pair, and then I just keep the win and go to the next hand any other time. Again, I play VP very rarely, though, because I don't personally care for the game.

Years ago I was playing poker at Caesars Windsor when a lady playing the bank of machines over from me hit 4 Aces with a kicker for $2000...when she hit that up popped the double up feature...this machine wasnt offering this feature on other winning hands so the lady wasn't sure what it was and pushed the YES button

once it dealt out the other hand she realized she did something she surely didnt want to do....called over a slots person who called in a supervisor...end of the story she was told that she had to play it out no turning back

she lost

Quote: Mission146

I tend to agree with this. I would suggest that the double-up bet is most comparable to the Odds Bet in Craps, even though the concept is somewhat different because if you are playing the Double-Up bet, you have already won.

In terms of whether or not it is a good bet, if you are playing VP at a machine with a -ER, then you would technically want to make the Double-Up bet until the machine no longer allows you to do so. I play VP so rarely that I could be wrong about this, but I believe that I once won five Double-Ups in a row at which point I was forced to take the win.

Technically yeah, you should keep doubling to keep your loss rate down, but in reality this eventually becomes futile because it will destroy your bankroll way too often for any "normal" gambler. Crystal Math said most IGT machines could allow unlimited double ups until you would reach a double up chance that would exceed 20,000 credits (5 royal flushes worth), but it can be configured to a lower cap and/or limited attempts.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/8849-disagreement-with-friend/3/#post130541

And definitely, definitely don't be this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSUn0z8w7t4

Adding variance if you're playing on a bankroll doesn't seem to be the best idea. If you're playing recreationally it could be fun.

8/5 machines might be worth it if you're playing a progressive.... even then the progressive has to be pretty damn high to make it worth your while.

Quote: coilman

Years ago I was playing poker at Caesars Windsor when a lady playing the bank of machines over from me hit 4 Aces with a kicker for $2000...when she hit that up popped the double up feature...this machine wasnt offering this feature on other winning hands so the lady wasn't sure what it was and pushed the YES button

once it dealt out the other hand she realized she did something she surely didnt want to do....called over a slots person who called in a supervisor...end of the story she was told that she had to play it out no turning back

she lost

I have some similar stories from Caesars in Vegas.

Asian player at high limit video poker did not know what the "double up?" meant when it came on the screen. He had just hit quad aces on $5 DDB for a $4,000 payoff (had he hit the kicker, there is no double up option). He thought "double up?" appearing on the screen meant the machine was asking him if he wanted to find out what double up was -- not the actual bet. When the "choice game" popped up in broken English he asked the rest of us what was going on. We explained it to him -- but we also called over a floor person who explained it to him. He not only misunderstood about the "double up?" question but we also think he misunderstood when when the floorperson said they could have the double up canceled so he could take his win. He played the double up -- and won -- getting $8.

Another time at Caesars a player said she didn't want to play the double up and they gave her the win.

the moral of the story: ask and they might cancel it.

At Caesars the double up is pretty much disabled on all of their machines. But there are a couple in the "small dome room" where it is still live.

Getting back to the first player -- the Asian man -- the double up option does not work on payoffs of $10.000 or more.

a few years ago my friend showed me a bank of machines at the venetian that had 1cent denomination (so 5c/hand at max credits) that also had a double-up feature. it was pretty fun getting free drinks, playing and doubling up at every oppurtunity regardless. i was pretty suprised to find such a low denomination in a strip casino and for only 5x not 100x credits at max-bet.

Thought this would be a good spot for this link:

Double-Up-Scam

Anybody ever hear what happened in this case?

I'm generally a craps player, and I've only started to play video poker. I've memorized the Wizard's 'Simple' strategy for Jacks Or Better and have been practicing/working on learning his 'Optimal' strategy. I was attracted to Video Poker due to the low house edge.

However, using the Wizard's free analyzer, I see that the house edge for 8/5 JoB is 2.8% (0.972984 return). With that kind of expected return, I might as well stick to craps.

(This particular VP terminal has no progressive jackpot and pays 4000 for a royal flush on 5 credit wager). Next time I'm there I'll look for a progressive.

Thanks for the suggestion. I cross the river to Detroit quite often to attend Red Wings and Tigers games, as well as to go to Mexican Town and Pizzapapalis (across the Monroe street from Greektown Casino). Greektown is the Detroit Casino I attend most often due to convenience, so next time I'm there I will look for the 9/6 machines.

I live in Windsor though, so Caesars Windsor will continue to be where I do the majority of my gambling.

The 9/6 machines at 4 Queens all have the double up activated. I decided, after some discuccion here, to play it only for what I call "non-losing" hands. That is, when you hit a jacks or better and get "paid" one for one. But of course I'd play it now and then with 2 for one payments. Overall I did well enough.

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A couple hours ago, I saw a guy playing $5 3-play Super Aces. The only reason I was watching was because this play is slightly positive today. I estimated $150 per hour with crrrrrrrrrazy variance. Anyway, this guy hits 4 Dueces and I'm expecting him to press "No" to the double-up offer and proceed to hand pay as fast as possible. Nope, he hits "Yes"... and wins. No celebration; not even a flinch at the 5G he just won.

Quote: Mooseton

Thought this would be a good spot for this link:

Double-Up-Scam

Anybody ever hear what happened in this case?

Dismissed as it should have been. http://www.volokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Nestor_Report-Recommendation.pdf

Quote: RogerKint

A couple hours ago, I saw a guy playing $5 3-play Super Aces. The only reason I was watching was because this play is slightly positive today. I estimated $150 per hour with crrrrrrrrrazy variance. Anyway, this guy hits 4 Dueces and I'm expecting him to press "No" to the double-up offer and proceed to hand pay as fast as possible. Nope, he hits "Yes"... and wins. No celebration; not even a flinch at the 5G he just won.

Sick life.