How random is it....RNG?
As I sat playing poker at Paris this weekend the game got to the point it was basically a joke
Was dealt so many three of a kinds , pulling for the forth one but time and time again the card that would pop up was of the right suite but either one card above or one card below the one needed. I would say I had a few hundred of these hands over the 5 days I was there. Last night I was talking with a fella sitting next to me at Planet Hollywood and made mention of this to him as we played.....as it was happening there too....not just my machine but his too.
So I ask, are all cards randomly generated or is it just random if its a winning hand or a losing hand.? Is it random that the forth one we need is missed by one card or is that the programers choice to make it like we JUST MISSSED?
BTW my first 4 of a kind at the Paris came out three sevens on the deal and forth on the second...followed shortly after by a hand of 4 aces with a 4 kicker for a taxable hand ( yuk Uncle Sam has $600 of my money)...... over the weekend four aces ruled the day for me...
I have played video poker for 15 years or so and NEVER seen the game results doing these results at a mathimatically impossible rate
To answer your question: a random number generator had better be 100% random or else it isn't.
Quote: AlanMendelsonYou have no idea how many times I would have loved a streak of three-of-a-kinds.
To answer your question: a random number generator had better be 100% random or else it isn't.
I hear you.....but like I said I could basically tell you say I was looking for the 4 of clubs that one of the two cards coming out was going to be either the 3 or 5 of clubs ...it became a total joke. Even the guy at Planet Hollywood after I made mention of it couldnt believe how often it was happening...considering there are ONLY two cards that can make that result out of the 47 cards left in the deck
Quote: coilmanMaybe somebody can help me out here
A computer can not generate a truly random number, but the methods employed are consider random enough.
I doubt that anyone that doesn't already understand why would benefit much from my explanation, and anyone who could benefit from it probably already knows, so I'll just leave my initial statement alone unless you want to be really bored.
It was the C standard library rand() RNG - I then switched to GNU scientific library whose RNG has a periodicity of about 10^400 (i believe), and all artifacts where gone.
Long story short: You cannot judge a RNG by just looking at a few hands. You need hundred of millions of draws before you can come to any conclusion.
Quote: MangoJI once came across a non-random RNG in my life during a statistical numerical analysis. And it was not easy to detect - basically I was needing 10 billion draws to notice the periodicy of about a billion draws.
It was the C standard library rand() RNG - I then switched to GNU scientific library whose RNG has a periodicity of about 10^400 (i believe), and all artifacts where gone.
Long story short: You cannot judge a RNG by just looking at a few hands. You need hundred of millions of draws before you can come to any conclusion.
Are you talking about the rand() function you get when using stdlib.h? Because if you are it's a PRNG too.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyAre you talking about the rand() function you get when using stdlib.h? Because if you are it's a PRNG too.
Thanks for clarification. the PRNG was implied when talking about software.
My point was, there *are* PRNG around of different statistical quality. But even if you don't care and use the standard textbook PRNG results are fair enough in the short run.
Unless you're playing in a racino. Those are not RNGs. They are just video lottery terminals programmed to look like poker machines.
Assuming a two-card draw, there are 1081 combinations of two cards, of which 89 are "one off but the same suit" but do not have the winning card (including one where you draw both cards that are one off); it "should" only happen about 1 time in 12. On the other hand, 294 combinations of drawn cards have one or both cards one off but neither has the winning card; this is about 3 times out of 11.
As for the randomness of an RNG, even something as simple as 1, 2, 3, 4,... can be "random" if the machine generates millions of numbers a second. Of course, if you know how often (in terms of time) the numbers cycle, you can time your button push to increase the chance of getting the numbers that draw a Royal Flush greatly, so the method isn't quite as simple as that. (One way around this is to generate numbers much larger than the number you need - say, 32-bit numbers when you only need 24 bits - then take only the "high order" bits; the low order bits have a regular cycle, but the high order bits do not.)
Quote: JIMMYFOCKERNobody knows, that's a fact, it's all speculation, don't believe anyone if they tell you differently.
I'm at least 95% certain it is in Nevada casino gaming machines! And at least 99% certain in Kansas state-run casino gaming machines! :D
Priests rape, teachers take on underage children, presidents lie outright and into the camera, and Stan the Man is afraid of the dark. Wonder of wonders, the poker machines are not always as advertised.
Quote: tournamentkingWonder of wonders, the poker machines are not always as advertised.
First the secret room that controls the roulette wheels and card shufflers. Then the loaded craps dice in Lake Tahoe. Now this. What is with the surge in conspiracy theories lately?
It's the mind control drugs in jet exhaust just doing their thing.Quote: WizardFirst the secret room that controls the roulette wheels and card shufflers. Then the loaded craps dice in Lake Tahoe. Now this. What is with the surge in conspiracy theories lately?
Quote: WizardFirst the secret room that controls the roulette wheels and card shufflers. Then the loaded craps dice in Lake Tahoe. Now this. What is with the surge in conspiracy theories lately?
Oh come on, I don't think there's any conspiracy theory going on, referring only to the poker machines that is. I'm of the belief that if priests and teachers can do unexpected things, the spiffy white souls in the casino industry are certainly not beyond reproach. I don't expect anyone can prove the non-random assertion, but neither can anyone prove the other way around. In this economy and with jobs not as simple to secure as in the past, profit margin is even more indispensable. Pressure causes more illegality and questionable moves than anything ever invented.
It would be easier to change the game's payout and register it with the Casino overseers than it would be to mess with the PRNG in an electronic gambling machine. If the casino were that greedy, it would change the payouts of the flush from 9 to 6 and the straight from 6 to 4.Quote: tournamentkingOh come on, I don't think there's any conspiracy theory going on, referring only to the poker machines that is. I'm of the belief that if priests and teachers can do unexpected things, the spiffy white souls in the casino industry are certainly not beyond reproach. I don't expect anyone can prove the non-random assertion, but neither can anyone prove the other way around. In this economy and with jobs not as simple to secure as in the past, profit margin is even more indispensable. Pressure causes more illegality and questionable moves than anything ever invented.
Quote: tournamentkingI'm of the belief that if priests and teachers can do unexpected things, the spiffy white souls in the casino industry are certainly not beyond reproach.
So, because of some priests and teachers abused their positions that means that video poker machines are cheating. I think your argument would be better received over at Rob Singer's forum.
Why would casino oprators risk their multi billion dollar operations on a few VP machines not being in compliance?
The Pseudo-RNG's are tested regularly by the NGC (in Vegas of course). Also the mother boards which house the game chips and E-Proms are sealed. If you run an online slot system then only the NGC has access to changing anything with regards to slot performance and they may onlyl do so in conjunction with the Slot Director and Internal and external auditors knowledge.
The actual E-Proms are verified and tested up the patooty to make sure they are completely pseudo-random.
Stick with the little men sitting underneath a roulette wheel popping the ball out your number.....it probably holds more water.
Lowering payouts also lowers business. bzzt.
Wizard, the point was, and I'm sure you already know, that if the most trusted among us are and have been capable of pulling the wool over our eyes, then what makes you so trusting that those in charge of casinos are not equally unethical? bzzt.
Lastly, name one big casino that's ever had its doors shut and its employees sent to the unemployment lines for breaking any gaming rules. bzzt. Just won't happen. And casinos do regularly alter vp machines regardless of all that common security inside the machines. Ever play in Indian casinos? Ever watch or play in vp tournaments where everyone seems to hit royals? Admittedly, I've seen both sides of these arguments on other forums, and while I have no dog in the hunt, I brought all this up to see what this forum had to say. But based on the many many reports of somewhat funny experiences, I tend to lean towards the unethical casino side of the sheet.
Bzzt!Quote: tournamentkingSorry but I disagree with each of you.
Quote: tournamentkingname one big casino that's ever had its doors shut and its employees sent to the unemployment lines for breaking any gaming rules.
Binion's Horseshoe. Gaming did a surprise raid, demanded to see that they had enough money on site, Binion's didn't have enough, so Gaming shut the place down. It remained closed for months until a buyer was found.
I will only attempt to answer this one question.
Fristly I have only been in three Indian casinos in my lifetime so I can't profess to know too much about them (Foxwoods, Mohegan and Chinook winds)
As for the slots paying out more during tournaments, that is because the slot machien can be set to tournament mode which changes the machine to about a 99% payback machine, give or take.
Before you start hollering that this means the machines can be set by anybody and that this goes to prove you point, no it doesn't.
In order to change a live game you either need about 4 different passwords from 4 different people both on property and off OR you need access to the motherboard which is very tightly controlled by the gaming board.
In order to change the game to tournament mode you simply need the reset key which every slot floor attendant has.
Hope that clarifies this one statement rebuff.
Quote: TomspurEver play in Indian casinos? Ever watch or play in vp tournaments where everyone seems to hit royals?
I will only attempt to answer this one question.
Fristly I have only been in three Indian casinos in my lifetime so I can't profess to know too much about them (Foxwoods, Mohegan and Chinook winds)
As for the slots paying out more during tournaments, that is because the slot machien can be set to tournament mode which changes the machine to about a 99% payback machine, give or take.
Before you start hollering that this means the machines can be set by anybody and that this goes to prove you point, no it doesn't.
In order to change a live game you either need about 4 different passwords from 4 different people both on property and off OR you need access to the motherboard which is very tightly controlled by the gaming board.
In order to change the game to tournament mode you simply need the reset key which every slot floor attendant has.
Hope that clarifies this one statement rebuff.
No, it does not. For instance, I've watched friends play in the vp tournaments, and there were at least 25 royals in 15 minutes among 100 participants. Several people hit two. That doesn't sound like a "tournament mode" setting to me. But I do know that the slot machines have that setting on them. I've played in many of those, and I've seen them adjust them. Many people probably have. So you were inadvertently half right.
Has 6:5 BJ really brought in more business? Doesn't sound right, and how would anybody know that?
I went back and read all about Binion's closing and there is no information that supports their closing because of anything related to gaming. Where is this info located?
Quote: tournamentkingNo, it does not. For instance, I've watched friends play in the vp tournaments, and there were at least 25 royals in 15 minutes among 100 participants. Several people hit two. That doesn't sound like a "tournament mode" setting to me. But I do know that the slot machines have that setting on them. I've played in many of those, and I've seen them adjust them. Many people probably have. So you were inadvertently half right.
Has 6:5 BJ really brought in more business? Doesn't sound right, and how would anybody know that?
I went back and read all about Binion's closing and there is no information that supports their closing because of anything related to gaming. Where is this info located?
Ok so I don't understand.....why is it (if not tournament mode) that those particular machines are all of a sudden paying out royal flushes like free soda pop at the local carnival??
What is it you are saying, the gams are rigged to pay out more royals or is there some other reason you make this statement?
If it is indeed not tournament mode, then what is it then?
Firstly, changing the RNG while still letting it appear random on the classical tests would mean a very very very tiny advantage to the casino. Why bother?
Secondly, why should we consider that the same game (here, videopoker) played on a table with real cards would be more random than the computer-generated RN? After all, this is a deterministic world, and the card order is determined by the physics involved in shuffling etc. Mightn't we call that pseudo-random? The fact that we (as humans) are (as yet) incapable of controlling the parameters is, more or less, the definition of randomness. Now, in what respect are you or the casino able to control the seed parameters of the RNG?
To me, at the level where I stand, which is as gambler and not particle physicist, both are equally random. I've seen strange sequences at the table as well. "Strangeness" in probability is in the eye of the beholder.
Quote: WizardBinion's Horseshoe. Gaming did a surprise raid, demanded to see that they had enough money on site, Binion's didn't have enough, so Gaming shut the place down. It remained closed for months until a buyer was found.
Quote: tournamentkingI went back and read all about Binion's closing and there is no information that supports their closing because of anything related to gaming. Where is this info located?
I went searching for this information as well, expecting to prove you wrong, and actually came up empty.
Reading the Wikipedia article on Binion's, there is a mention that "[Becky Binion] Behnen also attracted the attention of the state regulators by failing to keep sufficient funds available to pay winners in the casino cage," but there is no citation or further details (like a date of this incident), and no indication that this event caused a casino closure.
Later on in the article, in relation to the actual closing, it appears that it was mostly related to failure to pay union benefits, which resulted in a seizure of funds from the cage, which THEN resulted in the closing of the casino. Of the 3 articles cited relating to the closure, only this one remains on the web.
So, based on what I can find, gaming didn't do a "surprise raid" which resulted in the casino closing. It was more like, the IRS did a raid to take the cash that was needed to pay the union benefits, and it was then apparent that the cage didn't have enough cash to fund continuing operations. Obviously gaming would have been involved in this decision.
Now, this is all very loosey-goosey, given the lack of citations on Wikipedia. If anyone has more detailed evidence, please come forward! Now I'm curious.
Quote: TomspurOk so I don't understand.....why is it (if not tournament mode) that those particular machines are all of a sudden paying out royal flushes like free soda pop at the local carnival??
What is it you are saying, the gams are rigged to pay out more royals or is there some other reason you make this statement?
If it is indeed not tournament mode, then what is it then?
No rigging or anything like it. I'm saying that there has to be a method for casinos to change machines from random to not random for these tournaments, and if it can be done for tournaments, it CAN be done at any other time also. It shouldn't be done, but these are not priests or school teachers running such dens either.
On the Binions thing, I don't think Wizard would post something untrue, unless he was confused about the IRS and gaming. But it stands to reason, no viable casino would ever shut down for good or even for very long because they got caught doing something unsavory with their games or their machines. Maybe a fine but that's it. The backlash for employees, politicians, and state revenue loss would be enormous. So yes, I for one give some credence to people who notice funny things going on with their machines, esp. if they are very seasoned players, which many of them are.
I saw a question come up on some other strictly vp forum about inspector/machine testing. There was a huge amount of commenting over how the machines are constantly being tested, but when the question came up about if anyone has ever SEEN or even heard about an inspector test a machine (and the infamous Mr. Dancer is a big shot on this forum) there was nothing but silence. This makes some sense, because who has time for this, and money under the table is the real name of the game in the business world anyway.
Which is one reason that one coin results can be different from three coin results, the player hits the little red button a micro second sooner and therefore a different RNG number is returned.Quote: s2dbakerRNGs are not random at all. They are pseudo-random. The sequence of numbers that they generate are repeatable. They are however, always generating numbers even while you're ordering your drink from the cocktail waitress. What makes the number truly random is the moment that you press 'deal'
The problem is that Pseudo Random is random enough for government work. Split a second into 25,000 fragments and choose one of them is random even if technically its agreed upon that it is clearly repeatable. You ain't never gonna get a finger that is quicker that 25,000 split seconds.
Quote: tournamentkingNo rigging or anything like it. I'm saying that there has to be a method for casinos to change machines from random to not random for these tournaments, and if it can be done for tournaments, it CAN be done at any other time also. It shouldn't be done, but these are not priests or school teachers running such dens either.
I agree with you, it can absolutely be done but the method for doing so is completely different and a completely different ends tot he means.
1) You have a machine set up for "tournament play" through the menu of the game which can be accessed through the reset key on the right hand side of the slot machine.
NOTE: Tournament mode cannot be used for real play as there can be no payouts, the game is in essence dead to the casino in sofar as collecting revenue or making physical payouts.
2) In order to change a machines "payback" you need a special E-Prom which has to be inserted into the machines motherboard, restarted and then access the relevant menus. Once this is done you can change the payback from 99% to 87% or whatever you feel like.
NOTE: This process MAY NOT (please not my choice of words) be done by one casino employee. If a casino employee does decide to undertake this task and do so and he is caught by his employee card being put into the machine, the 100's of surveillance cameras (1000's in Macau) or the machines logs then he is going to jail. If he can prove he had done so at the behest of a casino executive then he and the exec are going to jail. If the exec can prove that he acted on behlaf of the owners then the casino will be shut down for further investigation and possible removal of license.
Please understand that no casino in their right minds would risk their entire corporation from either losing your license or being outed in the media, for winning an extra couple of bucks on VP.
You are right, nuns don't run casinos but the executives that do aren't complete morons either.“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
of them played there because they knew the RNG's were rigged on Party Poker, Stars, etc. The site closed after a few months as the
players decided his shuffling machines were rigged. Evander Holyfield " The Real Deal " was featured in a tournament.
Last time I talked to Gene he was working on a deal with New Jersey. Don't know if it panned out or not.
Video is 2 minutes long, Gene and machine in last minute. RNG conspiracy poker players make the baccarat and craps nuts here look like geniuses.
http://www.mynews3.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoID=4373877
So I continue to maintain that any video representation of a card game in a Nevada casino has an equal chance for every card and each card is independent, as if dealt by a human being. I make no claims about what the other 49 states are doing, including Washington.
Regarding the post above, that sounds like a pull-tab game.
Quote: Wizard
So I continue to maintain that any video representation of a card game in a Nevada casino has an equal chance for every card and each card is independent, as if dealt by a human being. I make no claims about what the other 49 states are doing, including Washington.
Regarding the post above, that sounds like a pull-tab game.
Washington is a crappy pull-tab state. VP strategy is worthless there. Hold garbage and see if the genie appears! :D
My second concern is as far as I know, the actual results are not recorded at all. You would think however useless it may seem, to have checks and balances to ensure they work in the field as predicted in the laboratory.
Quote: WizardRegarding the allegation that video poker machines can be set to a tournament mode that makes them rain royals, I asked Axelwolf about this, who has played in lots of video poker tournaments in Vegas. He flatly denied he has ever seen such a gaffed machine. They will increase the pay table significantly, but the cards remain random.
I agree completely with Axelwolf on this. As one who has played in hundreds of video poker tournaments, and who has programmed poker machines for various manufacturers, I have never seen tournament machines hit an unusual number of royals.
Quote: hlarsonI live in Washington State and yesterday was at an Indian Casino near Olympia, Wa (Red Wind) - my mom and I sat down to two video poker machines (Jacks or better) that were next to each other - we had played for about 30 min. when I noticed that we both had the exact same hands - cards in the same order, same suit, etc. We both had two 10's so for fun we both kept the same two cards - and then hit deal - thinking this was some sort of freak coincidence. The three cards we got were EXACTLY the same. A few dozen or so hands later and once again the exact same hand as my mother's.
If this is a consistent observation, my theory would be the pseudo-RNG is seeded by time to a coarse enough resolution that "collisions" do happen often enough to be observed. This would literally be a gold mine.
One strategy could be (not sure if it works): play those two machines on different denominators, one low and one high. If initial dealt cards are different, follow basic strategy on both machines. If dealt cards are the same, play out the low denominator by basic strategy first. If it wins copy it on the high denominator machine. If it loses, play the second-best strategy on the high-denominator game.
Sort of like that guy who kept winning the first Bingo game of each day because they started the RNG with a certain value each morning.Quote: MangoJIf this is a consistent observation, my theory would be the pseudo-RNG is seeded by time to a coarse enough resolution that "collisions" do happen often enough to be observed. This would literally be a gold mine.
How random? Random enough for the casinos not to worry.
Though the casino did eventually notice that one guy getting lucky each morning.
Quote: MangoJ2
If this is a consistent observation, my theory would be the pseudo-RNG is seeded by time to a coarse enough resolution that "collisions" do happen often enough to be observed. This would literally be a gold mine.
One strategy could be (not sure if it works): play those two machines on different denominators, one low and one high. If initial dealt cards are different, follow basic strategy on both machines. If dealt cards are the same, play out the low denominator by basic strategy first. If it wins copy it on the high denominator machine. If it loses, play the second-best strategy on the high-denominator game.
It wouldn't. The final results of the game are still random, they just have nothing to do with standard video poker because drawing is meaningless. They are pull tab machines and cards just visually represent their results.
It would seem strange you guys were getting exact same hands that often I don't know how the class 2 machines work, but i don't think it should be working this way. Sounds like it would be exploitable. Would love to see some video of this. Sneak a cell phone in and record please.Quote: hlarsonI live in Washington State and yesterday was at an Indian Casino near Olympia, Wa (Red Wind) - my mom and I sat down to two video poker machines (Jacks or better) that were next to each other - we had played for about 30 min. when I noticed that we both had the exact same hands - cards in the same order, same suit, etc. We both had two 10's so for fun we both kept the same two cards - and then hit deal - thinking this was some sort of freak coincidence. The three cards we got were EXACTLY the same. A few dozen or so hands later and once again the exact same hand as my mother's. This time I let her pick her cards first - basing my choice on what she was going to get - she had a pair which she kept and one of the cards she pulled was a 4 - so I kept the same pair plus the 4 in my hand and got a totally different set of 2nd cards than she did - I believe my choice gave me a different 2nd set. In playing next to each other for over 2 hours - we had apprx. 6 hands that were exact and at the same time as each other - more than likely we had more than that but you only really notice them when they are at the same time - if we kept the same cards, then our 2nd deal would be exactly the same - if we kept different cards we received a different 2nd set. After I got up and another lady sat down in my seat I watched two more hands come up for my mom and that lady that were exact. While the hands may be random, it's my opinion based on what we saw that the cards in the hands are set and based on what you choose the draw is also set. We also noticed that while there are about a dozen video poker machines, there were only a few that were seated next to each other, mostly they were on one side of an aisle of machines and another was on the opposite side. This does not make me want to play VP as I originally liked the game because I got to use my brain a little and seemed to have a better "chance" at hitting based on my choices - now I feel that this isn't the case at all.
This is no to say Nevada has never snuck in some gaffed machines here and there, or some very rare machines in some obscure place don't exist, I would pay to see one. But as far as a normal VP tourney in a casino. Never seen of it or heard of it(unless the guy had a tinfoil hat on)Quote: WizardRegarding the allegation that video poker machines can be set to a tournament mode that makes them rain royals, I asked Axelwolf about this, who has played in lots of video poker tournaments in Vegas. He flatly denied he has ever seen such a gaffed machine. They will increase the pay table significantly, but the cards remain random.
So I continue to maintain that any video representation of a card game in a Nevada casino has an equal chance for every card and each card is independent, as if dealt by a human being. I make no claims about what the other 49 states are doing, including Washington.
Regarding the post above, that sounds like a pull-tab game.
perhaps someone like DRich may know this
I always wonders about demonstration machines, like at the gaming expo, where they can force certain combinations or a bonus feature to appear. Do all machines have this capability for that particular make and model? Or do they have just a few demonstration machines?
