Pai Gow Poker- Joker Ranking

Long time lurker, first time poster. Thank you to everyone making this a great site. My question today is about the joker's ranking in Pai Gow Poker, specifically in a flush. I was under the impression that, in a flush, the joker substituted for the next highest ranking card in the flush. What got me thinking otherwise was the hand that got dealt to me today in Bovada practice mode:


And if I wasn't such a computer illiterate, you would be seeing the screen capture above this. Anyway, dealer's 5 card hand was A-K-Q-10-2 of diamonds, my hand was A-joker-J-7-3 of clubs. Bovada declared me the winner of the 5 card hand. My thinking is I should have lost the hand as having A-K-J to dealers A-K-Q. It seems that Bovada is reading the joker as a second ace of clubs.

My questions are, is this specific to Bovada, whether house rule or software glich?

And if a house rule, does it differ from casino to casino, i.e, the ranking of A-5 straight?

Thank you for all responses.


In every casino I have been in, your Joker would have been considered the King of Clubs. I don't know if any other online casinos play it like Bovada apparently does.

Jake -
the Bovada computer made a rare mistake, clearly due to a bug.
The Bovada house hand was Ad-Kd-Qd-10d-2d, and your hand was Ac-[Kc]-Jc-7c-3c via the joker, but had considered it an [impossible] Ac-Ac-Jc-7c-3.
The computer is supposed to follow logic that says "Joker = highest available rank of the flush," but instead the computer error credited you with two Ace(s) of clubs in your flush. Joker handling in Pai Gow poker is a tricky and difficult programming area in Pai Gow Poker simulators, and such bugs are not uncommon.

If you want to be a nice guy, send them a "field trouble report/bug fix request" via their web site.

Thanks Dan, I will.

Dan,

As a part 2 to the hand I had above, both tops copied A-K. It seems every house way that the Wizard has posted would have had the dealer setting the hand as k-k/ a-a-q-10-2. Is this another possible bug I should let them know about?

Jake,
That might not be a bug, it might be their house way that sets flushes that have an AK top, as setting AK/<flush> is the better setting, instead of playing it as two pairs, KK/AAxxx.
While many (- not all) house ways always it play two pairs, the some house ways use the setting AK/<flush>, as it is stronger than playing any two pairs, even aces and kings split, although not very commonly or constantly done.

Dan.

Bovada's response:

Dear Mr. Jacob,

Thanks for contacting Bovada Casino Customer Service.

We appreciate you taking the time to send us the screenshot of your concern. We are happy to assist with your inquiry and can provide you with an explanation.

A review of the screenshot that you have submitted to us indicates that the result was a push as both hand ranking is a flush. Your hand is better as you have a Joker within your ranking. As per our game rules a Joker can only be used to complete straights or flushes; otherwise it counts as an ace.

For more information on the Pai Gow Poker game rules we have provided the below link;

Our Casino Customer Service Team is available by phone at 1-866-234-1324 and e-mail at casino@bovada.lv 24/7 to help if you need anything else.

Thanks,

Casino Customer Service
casino@bovada.lv
1-866-234-1324


If I'm reading their response correctly, it seems as if it does count as a second ace of clubs.

I get the feeling that the rep at Bovada that wrote that letter doesn't understand the rules for Pai Gow Poker.

Not necessarily. "a Joker can be used to complete straights or flushes; otherwise it counts as a flush". So, according to Bovada's rule book, the Joker is the highest card available in a Flush, perhaps even above an "ace". In otherwords, the rank of the Joker can be the Ace of Clubs. Just because you have it in your hand doesn't mean it can't have the same "Value" in your hand.

For example, say the dealer had the Ace of Clubs in a flush and you had the joker in your same clubs flush. The Joker "counts" as an Ace of Clubs. There are two Ace of clubs in play, therefore. Why should it matter whether the Ace of Clubs is in your hand or in the dealer's?

So, I kind of like the ruling that the Joker completes a flush or straight with the highest card value. In otherwords, the flush with the joker is indeed two Ace of Clubs.

But I don't think so: According to New Jersey, "For purposes of setting the hands, a joker may be used as any card to complete a "straight," a "flush," a "straight flush" or a "royal flush."

If you are completing a flush, I don't see how a flush could have two cards of the same rank in the hand. But there's no rule stating that you can have two cards of the same rank and suit in your hand. In other words, just because you have an Ace of clubs in your hand doesn't mean that the joker can't count as an Ace of clubs (to complete the flush). After all, the dealer may have an Ace of Clubs in his hand.

i'm just looking for the rule that states that the joker can't duplicate a card in your hand. For example, if you have five aces, which suit is the joker. So, why couldn't the joker be the Ace if you already have one in your hand to make a flush?

Someone correct me. I believe there was (is?) some sort of variant of Pai Gow Poker in which the Joker was considered higher than an Ace, such that if you were comparing the Ace and a Joker, the Joker would win. I suppose it's theoretically possible the coding was done in this fashion. A Flush with a Joker, automatically considered to be higher than a flush without a Joker, regardless of how many Aces are in the flush.

Personally, I think Dan is right, and that the coding wasn't done entire correctly, and that the response was generated by someone who doesn't understand Pai Gow Poker.

Quote: konceptum

Someone correct me. I believe there was (is?) some sort of variant of Pai Gow Poker in which the Joker was considered higher than an Ace, such that if you were comparing the Ace and a Joker, the Joker would win. I suppose it's theoretically possible the coding was done in this fashion. A Flush with a Joker, automatically considered to be higher than a flush without a Joker, regardless of how many Aces are in the flush.

Personally, I think Dan is right, and that the coding wasn't done entire correctly, and that the response was generated by someone who doesn't understand Pai Gow Poker.

Thanks, konceptum!
There was an obscure variant called mini-Pai Gow by Gaming Entertainment, where you got dealt six cards, and formed a ONE-card low side. In cases where a single Ace faced the Joker on the one-card low side, the copy was given to the side that had the joker if it were the player, otherwise if aces tied, then that side was ignored, and only the high hand detemined the outcome. See: Good Riddance. (Gaming Entertainment, Inc. is currently on tour with Spinal Tap.)

The Bovada rep who responded either:
1. Did not wish to acknowledge the bug, or;
2. Honestly believes you can have a pair of suited Aces in a flush with the joker, not thoroughly understanding the game;
3. Officially adopted this rule instead of fixing the computer programming bug, as an easy way out. This'll have no real impact on the game house-edge-wise, but simply tolerates a daffy, non-standard glitch instead of spending the time and money in fixing it.

Quote:

A review of the screenshot that you have submitted to us indicates that the result was a push as both hand ranking is a flush. Your hand is better as you have a Joker within your ranking. As per our game rules a Joker can only be used to complete straights or flushes; otherwise it counts as an ace.

Your initial *win* was considered to a push. Because you had the Joker, you were declared the winner of a tie-breaker to the general rank-of-hand (Flush without regard to sequence) somewhere in Bovada's House Way Rules. Note that the House can therefore invoke this ruling. I would like to know the effect of this ruling, if any, upon the Player.

In other words a Joker-high Flush (or Straight where the Straight is considered Ace-high) wins.

Ultimately, the house makes all the rules, - even if it is against convention.
The casinos run the casinos, not the players.

I think that if you had a flush that went Joker - King - Queen - Ten - Nine in spades while the bank had A - K - Q- J - 9 in Clubs, the dealer would win.

My point is that there is no rule stating that you can't have the same card in your hand. The joker is used to complete a straight. That's fine, the joker must represent a card in that straight, obviously. If you have five aces, what suit does the joker represent? In that case, the joker is an Ace of something - you have a duplicate card.

My thought is that in a flush, the Joker is ALWAYS an Ace, even if you have another Ace in your hand. That makes a flush with Ace - Joker stronger than another flush with Ace-King.

Show me the rule where i'm wrong.

Boy:
In your example, the dealer would lose because the Joker would be used as a Jack of Spades, making a Straight Flush.

Quote: boymimbo

I think that if you had a flush that went Joker - King - Queen - Ten - Nine in spades while the bank had A - K - Q- J - 9 in Clubs, the dealer would win.

My point is that there is no rule stating that you can't have the same card in your hand.

Certainly so in multi-deck games. but in single deck games, the convention is that there are no suited pairs.

Quote: boymimbo

The joker is used to complete a straight.

Exactly. Or a flush, or a straight flush, or a fifth ace - of no declared suit.

Quote: boymimbo

That's fine, the joker must represent a card in that straight, obviously.

No it doesn't, - and that's the point, unless it copies or faces off against another hand - as the real card 'x' is that card, and the joker just forms a complete poker element by plugging the highest available slot of the straight or flush. You can't use it to duplicate the ace of a flush if that slot is already used by the real ace. It is just a "plug" to complete the straight or the flush, with the straight or flush being a five-card long poker element, not "card x." If it's at the top of the straight, it is a 9-high straight, for example, and if it is at the top of a flush that doesn't already have the ace, it is an Ace-high flush, for example. It plugs the highest gap available to form that particular poker element. And true - this poker element may indeed copy the needed card elsewhere in the deck, even in hands facing each other - where it simply copies.

Quote: Boymimbo

If you have five aces, what suit does the joker represent? In that case, the joker is an Ace of something - you have a duplicate card.

No, it is an ace of "no declared suit," - and no copy of it can occur, certainly not in a hand of five aces, as it is the fifth ace.

Quote: boymimbo

My thought is that in a flush, the Joker is ALWAYS an Ace, even if you have another Ace in your hand. That makes a flush with Ace - Joker stronger than another flush with Ace-King.

No; it fills the highest available gap in the flush or straight, else it is an ace of no suit, even with other aces when it does NOT otherwise complete a straight or a flush; it cannot overlap another card within the same poker element it is used in. it is not always "an ace" or card 'x' - and that's the point. Players try to argue this and expect to get a hand decision and payment from it, and the floorman tells them "no." The Hand AKQ<joker>10 does NOT beat a natural AKQJ10, not in any casino - except for Bovada.

Quote: Boymimbo

Show me the rule where i'm wrong.

The rule in Pai Gow Poker that it is used "to complete a straight or a flush, else (or) it is an Ace" is everywhere; this is one example. The problem is that the "else" keeps getting dropped here and there in practice - so that it is BOTH a plug for a straight or flush AND simultaneously can be duplicating Ace in the same straight or flush when the ace is already present in that poker element. It cannot; it is the highest available slot of the straight or flush, otherwise it is a fifth ace of NO declared suit. [what, you're going to claim that your five aces also has a suited pair of aces??]
This is like asking, "show me the proof my cat is not an alien from Mars" - as proof that he is.
But the "completes a straight or flush ELSE an ace" declaration means "not both, unless the ace slot IS available."

In UK the rules state--

Quote: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/rules%20of%20casino%20games%20in%20great%20britain%20-%20june%202011.pdf

13.9 The Joker can be used to complete a Straight, a Flush or a Straight Flush but is otherwise
treated as an Ace.

Thus unless it creates a straight flush, it seems as if you could have two Aces in the suit.
(Interestingly I have only seen Pai Gow tiles and not Pai Gow poker cards in the UK.)

I had a thought that may throw a new monkey-wrench into this.

Why is a wheel the second highest straight?

Because when the two hands are the same type, the cards are evaluated individually.

By that reasoning, the Bovada hand ranking was correct. Similarly, I would expect Bovada's scoring to rank ANY straight or flush with the bug higher than a king high straight or flush, and to continue to evaluate all cards individually when against an ace high straight or flush.

Quote: charliepatrick

In UK the rules state--

Quote: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/rules%20of%20casino%20games%20in%20great%20britain%20-%20june%202011.pdf

13.9 The Joker can be used to complete a Straight, a Flush or a Straight Flush but is otherwise
treated as an Ace.

Thus unless it creates a straight flush, it seems as if you could have two Aces in the suit.
(Interestingly I have only seen Pai Gow tiles and not Pai Gow poker cards in the UK.)

When it pairs with another ace, it turns a singleton ace into a pair of unsuited aces, a pair of aces into unsuited trip aces, etc...
When a part of a flush, it loses it's ace characteristic, unless the ace slot is available in that forming flush, else it plugs the highest available (open) flush spot. you get Ah-Kh-7H-4h plus the joker, the joker takes the slot where the queen of hearts would have been, and it is now an AKQ74 heart flush.

Quote: konceptum

Someone correct me. I believe there was (is?) some sort of variant of Pai Gow Poker in which the Joker was considered higher than an Ace, such that if you were comparing the Ace and a Joker, the Joker would win. I suppose it's theoretically possible the coding was done in this fashion. A Flush with a Joker, automatically considered to be higher than a flush without a Joker, regardless of how many Aces are in the flush.

Personally, I think Dan is right, and that the coding wasn't done entire correctly, and that the response was generated by someone who doesn't understand Pai Gow Poker.

In mini pai gow, a joker beats an ace in the low hand.