Mini Baccarat in Vegas with players handling cards

Hello All,

Long time fan of the Wizard first post on the forums.

Anyways up here in the great white north we have a version of mini-baccarat (at least I think it's correctly called mini-baccarat) where the players are allowed to handle the cards and was wondering if any such games existed in Vegas.

For added clarity the procedure is as follows:
1. Any player can bet either player, banker or tie
2. The 2 hands are dealt out
3. The dealer (person) hands the "player" hand to the person with the highest player bet (or someone else if that player wants) to open the hand, the hand is returned to the dealer and opened face up.
4. The dealer hands the "dealer" hand to the person with the highest dealer bet to open, it's then returned and opened face up.
5. If the player draws a card that card is given to the player who opened the player hand to open, then returned to the dealer and put face up.
6. If the banker draws a card that card is given to the player who opened the banker hand to open, then returned to the dealer and put face up.
The winner is determined and all bets are settled. If no players bets on one side then the dealer will open that side him/herself.

It is offered both in regular 5% banker commission and in EZ baccarat where a 3-card-7 banker win being a banker push.
From what I understand this is the same as regular mini-baccart or easy baccarat except in those games in Vegas the dealer simply deals out all the cards for both hands.

My friends and I prefer the version handling the cards for 3 reasons:
1. It makes for a slower game
2. "squeezing" or "rolling" the cards adds excitement
3. bending the crap out of cards is oddly enjoyable.

I was wondering if any games like this existed anywhere in Vegas up to a $100 table minimum, everything I have read says that in mini baccart only the dealer touches the cards. Thanks.

I think this is all a question of terminology.

Even in Las Vegas we have Three kinds of Baccarat according to common terminology but the Nevada Gaming Commission recognized only TWO categories for licensing purposes.

So here is what we have:
Baccarat is a game sometimes referred to as Big Table Baccarat. And its pretty much what you describe.
Midi-Baccarat is simply the same thing at a smaller table with fewer players.
At our Mini-Baccarat (MiniBacc) games there are usually only five or so players and they never touch the cards, since all cards are dealt from a shoe by a Dealer.

The rules for Baccarat, MidiBaccarat and Mini-Baccarat are all the same as far as card dealing and payoffs go.

In reality, a winning Player hand is paid at 20:20 and a winning Banker hand is paid at 19:20. In order to speed up the game, a winning banker hand will be paid at a nominal rate of 20:20 but a dealer will place a lammer representing a five percent commission is settled up from time to time during play and when the player leaves the table.

The advantage of Big Table Baccarat is that it is played slowly with lots of hijinks and there are the usual trappings of some swank European Gaming Salon: there is usually a chandelier, the game is played off in some quiet alcove, the dealers are dressed in Evening wear, etc. Its still the same rules and same payouts and same house edge... it just applies at a different rate of play and different atmosphere.

Yes, you can find this game many places "down south." It's usually called "Macau baccarat" or midi-baccarat. Minimums start at $25 at the great majority of places. I agree it is more fun than the regular game. What is the minimum in Canada?

While full size baccarat tables make upwards from $18K per day, the mini-baccarat tables make $1.8K per day. Since this category is not subdivided into midi and "true mini" there is probably a difference between those tables.

If a table makes $1.5K per day, the expensive of constantly throwing away decks of cards after a single use is probably significant. Clearly it is minor on the full size tables. In addition allowing players to touch the cards must add a layer of security to watch the game more closely.

Quote: teddys

Yes, you can find this game many places "down south." It's usually called "Macau baccarat" or midi-baccarat. Minimums start at $25 at the great majority of places. I agree it is more fun than the regular game. What is the minimum in Canada?

Thanks for the help, it seems all my confusion is over different terms. I play at Casinos in Alberta and the game where you touch the cards is in the "high limit" room with a $25 minimum and $1000 (by law) maximum, (although you can bet all 8 squares if you want so in theory you can bet $8k per hand). Adding to my confusion they have the same game without the card handling for $10 a hand on the regular floor and they refer to it as EZ Baccarat (which my search now indicates refers to it's no commision and 3-card dealer 7 is a push rule) I guess maybe this could be called "EZ-mini-baccarat".

When searching online I keep typing in "mini baccarat" and getting as a response "mini baccarat is like regular baccarat except the dealer deals all the cards" and I'm thinking where is the fun in that? Then I searched for "big baccarat" but I don't think that is right for me as it appears to be for only massive whales and may involve players actually dealing the cards, now I understand that "midi" and not "mini" is the answer I'm looking for, phew that's pretty confusing.

With all that being said I where is the best place to play "midi" baccarat in Vegas with table minimums in the $25-$50 range.

EDIT: meant table minimum to be $25-50

Quote: CrazyCanuck

Then I searched for "big baccarat" but I don't think that is right for me as it appears to be for only massive whales and may involve players actually dealing the cards, now I understand that "midi" and not "mini" is the answer I'm looking for, phew that's pretty confusing.

With all that being said I where is the best place to play "midi" baccarat in Vegas with table minimums in the $25-$500 range.

Quote: Vegas made easy

The Midi version is simply the same table as Mini-Baccarat but the players touch the cards.

Baccarat—14 Players, 8 decks, $100 Minimum (sometimes $25)—Players mangle the cards as if it helps somehow.
Midi-Baccarat—7-8 Players, 6 or 8 decks, $5-$25 Minimum—Players touch cards
Mini-Baccarat—7 or 8 Players, 6 or 8 decks, $5-$25 Minimum—Players do NOT touch cards
http://www.vegasmadeeasy.com/gaming/baccarat

I will defer my answer to someone who plays regularly. But it sounds to me like the casino is relatively free to change the designation from midi to mini. If revenue is not sufficient, I would think that throwing away all those decks of cards could be a factor.

Palace Station advertises it's five tables as regular baccarat (and not mini). Since they are located near China Town but close to the strip, they probably have low minimums. It would be my guess for what you want. You can E-MAIL the casinos.

Quote: pacomartin

I will defer my answer to someone who plays regularly. But it sounds to me like the casino is relatively free to change the designation from midi to mini. If revenue is not sufficient, I would think that throwing away all those decks of cards could be a factor.

Palace Station advertises it's five tables as regular baccarat (and not mini). Since they are located near China Town but close to the strip, they probably have low minimums. It would be my guess for what you want. You can E-MAIL the casinos.

Thanks for that I'll be mostly on the strip and was thinking that Bellagio would be a good place to start my search and then go from there. Maybe I'll call a few casinos and see what they are offering.

I keep hearing people mentioning card costs as a reason to go from midi to mini but I have a hard time believing its a noticeable expense to casinos especially considering blackjack (and I'll assume) mini cards are still replaced fairly frequently (ever 8 hours I think?). I'm thinking the difference is more in speed of play, mini is dealt at the speed of blackjack with the average dealing taking about 15-20 seconds, midi can be anywhere from 1-3 minutes per hand depending on the players holding the cards. It seems like the smaller the bet the more bets you need to have placed per hour to secure a decent profit.

Anyways thanks for the information and the site I'll be sure to check it out for more info.

Quote: CrazyCanuck

Thanks for that I'll be mostly on the strip and was thinking that Bellagio would be a good place to start my search and then go from there. Maybe I'll call a few casinos and see what they are offering..

I've heard that Bellagio would indeed probably be the best place, particularly if your betting levels are going to be high, but that some people prefer Wynn simply for the comps and the food slightly edging out the Bellagio.

There are no important rule variations in Las Vegas Baccarat or Mini-Baccarat so availability, minimum bet size and quality of comps are key factors.

These are some statistics of about five years ago from VegasMadeEasy: 16 Vegas casinos with 169 tables offer Baccarat and 37 casinos that offer Mini-Baccarat with a total of 155 tables.

Bellagio 21 tables
Caesars 10 tables
MGM 20 tables
Venetian 25 tables
At the above casinos you are probably going to be looking at 100.00 dollar minimum bets at night and on weekends but 25 or 50 minimums if its early and really, really slow.

While most people would favor the situation wherein the players handle the cards because its slower and therefore the house edge applies more slowly its also a question of the minimum betting limits and the atmosphere that might be enjoyed. I do not like the hijinks involved. I do not care much for the conversation particularly if its taking place in Chinese. Particularly at my local Indian casino's mini-bacc tables I often find my fellow ten and twenty dollar bettors are all oriental and chat back and forth to each other. They usually write down the results carefully and often bet on the Tie bet despite its higher house edge.

My understanding is that whether its Chandeliers, Evening Dress and Hijinks involving card fondling or even card eating ... or a uniformed dealer at a miniBacc table with five players none of which are permitted to touch the cards, the casino keeps about twelve percent of the money crossing the table. So the only real questions are what sort of atmosphere you enjoy and what sort of comps and meals and drinks you will be getting.

MiniBacc:
Caesars 23 tables
MGM 8 tables
Mandalay Bay 7 tables (often with lovely ladies... some of whom are very available. The casino recently made several arrests.)
Venetian 2 tables
Bellagio 5 tables
Wynn 5 tables

Rather than calling a casino, you might find it easier to email a host (you can usually find their host's email addresses on their websites). This is a good way to "introduce yourself" and if you indicate your level of play they might take note of you and greet you at your arrival.

Game Counts in all Casinos in Nevada organized by county (so first two pages are Churchill County followed by Clark County). Updated monthly.

Bellagio is 4 mini-baccarat and 27 full size baccarat. I think that if you go there you had better be prepared to bet big.

There is no way to tell the mini from midi baccarat as the Nevada Gaming Commission does not distinguish them. Web sites that tell you the current status of the game seem few and far between, and may not be reliable anyway.

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Forty licensees in Clark County with mini-baccarat ranked by number of tables
-Near Chinatown
GOLD COAST HOTEL AND CASINO 14
PALMS CASINO RESORT 5
RIO SUITE HOTEL & CASINO 2
PALACE STATION HOTEL & CASINO 7

-Strip
MGM GRAND HOTEL/CASINO 9
WYNN LAS VEGAS 9
ARIA RESORT & CASINO 6
ORLEANS HOTEL AND CASINO 6
PARIS LAS VEGAS 5
BELLAGIO 4
MANDALAY BAY RESORT & CASINO 4
VENETIAN CASINO RESORT 4
CAESARS PALACE 3
FLAMINGO LAS VEGAS/O'SHEAS 3
HARRAH'S CASINO HOTEL LAS VEGAS 3
LUXOR HOTEL AND CASINO 3
MIRAGE, THE 3
NEW YORK - NEW YORK HOTEL & CASINO 3
TREASURE ISLAND 3
LAS VEGAS HILTON 2
MONTE CARLO RESORT & CASINO 2
TROPICANA RESORT AND CASINO 2
COSMOPOLITAN OF LAS VEGAS, THE 1
EXCALIBUR HOTEL AND CASINO 1
HARD ROCK HOTEL & CASINO 1
PLANET HOLLYWOOD RESORT & CASINO 1
RIVIERA HOTEL & CASINO 1

-Offstrip
M RESORT SPA AND CASINO, THE 4
SOUTH POINT HOTEL AND CASINO 4
RED ROCK CASINO RESORT SPA 3
BOULDER STATION HOTEL & CASINO 2
GREEN VALLEY RANCH STATION CASINO 2
SUNSET STATION HOTEL & CASINO 2
AQUARIUS CASINO RESORT 1
SANTA FE STATION HOTEL & CASINO 1
STRATOSPHERE TOWER, CASINO & HOTEL 1
SUNCOAST HOTEL AND CASINO 1

-Downtown
GOLDEN NUGGET 2
EL CORTEZ 1


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-Full size Baccarat
VENETIAN CASINO RESORT 49
WYNN LAS VEGAS 49
CAESARS PALACE 45
BELLAGIO 27
MGM GRAND HOTEL/CASINO 26
ARIA RESORT & CASINO 25
MIRAGE, THE 23
MANDALAY BAY RESORT & CASINO 10
PARIS LAS VEGAS 8
RIO SUITE HOTEL & CASINO 6
TREASURE ISLAND 6
PALACE STATION HOTEL & CASINO 5
PLANET HOLLYWOOD RESORT & CASINO 5
COSMOPOLITAN OF LAS VEGAS, THE 3
HARD ROCK HOTEL & CASINO 3
MONTE CARLO RESORT & CASINO 3
ALIANTE STATION CASINO + HOTEL 1
GREEN VALLEY RANCH STATION CASINO 1
HARRAH'S CASINO HOTEL LAS VEGAS 1
PALMS CASINO RESORT 1
HARVEYS RESORT HOTEL/CASINO AND HARRAH'S 1

Did the Longhorn start their 4% commission mini-baccarrat yet?

Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Did the Longhorn start their 4% commission mini-baccarrat yet?

According to the game count Longhorn has only 4 blackjack tables. So your information must be very recent.

In terms of the security I can make a comment about this: At the card room I work at where the game is played with the players allowed to handle one card at a time in the manner the original poster described. The shoe that is used is a special one from Shufflemaster that scans the cards as they come out. When the play is finished the dealer pushes a button on the shoe that causes a light (either blue or red) that indicates banker or player. There is a small lcd screen on the back of the shoe that actually shows the cards that came out and the outcome of the game (I am sure they would refer to this screen should anything strange happen such as someone trying to cheat).