Name the Limits of Fair Play
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46 members have voted
Quote: RobSinger
I have never figured out why people believe it is up to them to help pay casino employees' salaries.
Using that reasoning you should never tip anyone. The restaurateur could pay more to the waiters, the taxi company could pay more to the cabbie, the golf course could pay more to the cart girl, etc. Certain industries build in an expected level of tipping into the base salary they pay their employees, who traditionally get tipped. If there was no tipping then dealers would need to be paid more and that money would have to come from either the table games or slots in the form of lesser pay tables, rules, etc. Essentially, tippers are subsidizing you, but it is well within your rights to accept that subsidy.
Not so in a casino. You have people who are paid a salary to keep you happy and losing. They may like to theoretically see everyone be able to go home a winner, but they know that the majority will lose, many will be miserable, and usually an addiction to come back and do it all over again has been created or is continuing. To tip in that environment is not only wrong--it takes the very reason you went in in the first place right out of your pocket.
Quote: RobSingerSooPoo, the argument about this always comes up. None of those other enterprises you mentioned are in the business of potentially cleaning us out for a bit of entertainment. They all provide a service, some provide entertainment, and some provide a product. The give & take is reasonable and every employee really does want a win-win situation with every single customer. They for the most part truly do care that you go home satisfied and fulfilled.
Not so in a casino. You have people who are paid a salary to keep you happy and losing. They may like to theoretically see everyone be able to go home a winner, but they know that the majority will lose, many will be miserable, and usually an addiction to come back and do it all over again has been created or is continuing. To tip in that environment is not only wrong--it takes the very reason you went in in the first place right out of your pocket.
Rob - why just casinos??
Movie houses - prices constantly going up, sticky residue on the floors under the seats, - don't like the movie? Too bad, NO refund! "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
Restaurants - the waiters and cooks really don't care about you! They want you to chow down, then get outta there. - "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
car repair places - the mechanics and clerks don't give a damn about you! All they want to do is overcharge you, and have you get the hell out of there - "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
Veterinarians - They don't give a damn about your little Fifi peuking up on the couch! You and your little mutt mean nothing to them. - "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
Bars and Pubs - They have NO respect for the fools who just get drunk and talk shit all night long. None. and they won't send ya to AA - your problem. "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
The Claim that all business - aside from gaming - hope you are truly fulfilled, and are truly compassionate and...caring...[snif, snif] is just a crock, really. Some are good, some are bad. C'mon. All business hope you like patronizing them, and seek your satisfaction for doing so within limits.
The list above is endless....I know we're singled out [gaming]. Gamblers may resent their own enjoyment of the pasttime, and hate us for providing them the service and opportunity for them to have some fun, and in the way they choose to - with the recommendation to "stiff 'em all" for it. Openly said and declared. Ye gads.
I'd tip much more if dealers kept their own tips. I think they should either be paid better wages, or get to keep their own tips. I don't like the system how it is...
When I go into a casino I understand they will do anything legal to separate me from my money--and as much of that as possible via whatever means possible, whether it can be considered morally responsible or not. I also know I'm only going in with no other purpose than to take their money. I'm not going in to have a good time, to feel the ambience, to kill some time, or chat with the bartenders. As such, I learned long ago that if you are to be consistently successful in attaining your goal of leaving with a profit, you too must use any legal method possible to accomplish that--regardless of the ethics or morals involved. Tit for tat as they say.
I saw the expansive "tipping in casinos" thread and I am one who never tips a casino employee unless they are serving me a drink or a meal. Lots of people think this is not ethical or reasonable, but for a person like me who has played as a profession, I am not the least bit concerned with how casino employees receive their pay, how much they earn, or if they can pay their bills or feed their families. It is, in fact, exactly how the casino feels about me. My only driver is profit, and tipping cuts into that ,
So Said ROB SINGER
I myself was on leave from AT&T and attended dealer's school in Colorado in 1991, the first year gambling was legalized Many of the other students were single mom's or soccer Moms looking to provide a better live for their families. Most
had never even been inside a casino before Colorado legalized low limits. As a union member I had great medical benefits and was not impressed by what the casinos offered, but most students were very appreciative.
Vurginia Lewis built the first full size casino in Blackhawk, named the Gold Mine. So much so that she bought Heritage Square, in Golden, just outside Denver and provide day care for any casino employees and allowed shuttle buses to use her parking lot there.
Dealers are not paid to keep you losing, but to provide you a service. I have known several professional gamblers , who kept meticulous records of expense. But they would reach into the other pocket to tip dealers, jockeys, etc, So that excuse does not fly. You are just a cheap bastard.
OMG I am short tempered and whole purpose of this post was an apology. So I hereby offer a heartfelt one to all the innocent bastards of the world. But to you ROB Singer NEVER
Quote: RobSingerI have never figured out why people believe it is up to them to help pay casino employees' salaries.
Other than because it is up to all customers to help pay the salaries of all workers working for companies you buy goods or services from? Or do you demand a discount at Walmart because you won't pay for the salaries of the cashiers, stock boys, janitors, back office, personnel or anyone named Walton?
Does it matter if salaries are included in the prices charged or not? yes, because then you can tip (ie pay the salaries of service personnel) according to how valuable you deem such service to be worth.
Oh, BTW, when you meet a doctor he may say he hopes it's nothing serious, but he'll be secretly hoping you have cancer or heart disease or some other really dangerous, really expensive condition he may treat you for in exchange for tons and tons of money.
Quote:I happen to believe that people who tip inside casinos are incompetent sheep, ready and willing to make up all kinds of excuses for why they do not win on most visits. One of their reasons of course, is giving away their money to people who don't deserve it just because they're in a momentary euphoria of a win.
And it's offensive statements like this, which also happen to be wrong, why no one likes you.
Quote: buzzpaffAN OPEN APOLOGY
When I go into a casino I understand they will do anything legal to separate me from my money--and as much of that as possible via whatever means possible, whether it can be considered morally responsible or not. I also know I'm only going in with no other purpose than to take their money. I'm not going in to have a good time, to feel the ambience, to kill some time, or chat with the bartenders. As such, I learned long ago that if you are to be consistently successful in attaining your goal of leaving with a profit, you too must use any legal method possible to accomplish that--regardless of the ethics or morals involved. Tit for tat as they say.
I saw the expansive "tipping in casinos" thread and I am one who never tips a casino employee unless they are serving me a drink or a meal. Lots of people think this is not ethical or reasonable, but for a person like me who has played as a profession, I am not the least bit concerned with how casino employees receive their pay, how much they earn, or if they can pay their bills or feed their families. It is, in fact, exactly how the casino feels about me. My only driver is profit, and tipping cuts into that ,
So Said ROB SINGER
I myself was on leave from AT&T and attended dealer's school in Colorado in 1991, the first year gambling was legalized Many of the other students were single mom's or soccer Moms looking to provide a better live for their families. Most
had never even been inside a casino before Colorado legalized low limits. As a union member I had great medical benefits and was not impressed by what the casinos offered, but most students were very appreciative.
Vurginia Lewis built the first full size casino in Blackhawk, named the Gold Mine. So much so that she bought Heritage Square, in Golden, just outside Denver and provide day care for any casino employees and allowed shuttle buses to use her parking lot there.
Dealers are not paid to keep you losing, but to provide you a service. I have known several professional gamblers , who kept meticulous records of expense. But they would reach into the other pocket to tip dealers, jockeys, etc, So that excuse does not fly. You are just a cheap bastard.
OMG I am short tempered and whole purpose of this post was an apology. So I hereby offer a heartfelt one to all the innocent bastards of the world. But to you ROB Singer NEVER
If you were to dig deeper then you'd find in almost every instance, so-called "professional gamblers" either have another regular income from some other source, they have a business of some sort that either sells products or their services, or they claim to be a pro because they are a part of some video poker "team" in which case they are not professional gamblers at all. When they win they keep very little; when they lose they do not lose their own money.
A true professional gambler NEVER gives his money away to people just because they are there and involved in his process of profitting. And a true professional gambler does not concern himself with whether the dealer or floor attendant has financial problems, a family to feed, or both. He is simply in there to take their money from whatever legal means possible without regard to ancillary issues--just as the casino is doing with him. Most casino employees, however, have this presumption of entitlement. This is a free, capitalist society where anyone is free to work where they please or are satisfied. I have a saying for the entitlement-seekers: If they don't like it they can lump it, then take it down the road and dump it.
Quote: PaigowdanRob - why just casinos??
Movie houses - prices constantly going up, sticky residue on the floors under the seats, - don't like the movie? Too bad, NO refund! "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
Restaurants - the waiters and cooks really don't care about you! They want you to chow down, then get outta there. - "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
car repair places - the mechanics and clerks don't give a damn about you! All they want to do is overcharge you, and have you get the hell out of there - "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
Veterinarians - They don't give a damn about your little Fifi peuking up on the couch! You and your little mutt mean nothing to them. - "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
Bars and Pubs - They have NO respect for the fools who just get drunk and talk shit all night long. None. and they won't send ya to AA - your problem. "They're just there to take your money! They are truly an [evil] business!"
The Claim that all business - aside from gaming - hope you are truly fulfilled, and are truly compassionate and...caring...[snif, snif] is just a crock, really. Some are good, some are bad. C'mon. All business hope you like patronizing them, and seek your satisfaction for doing so within limits.
The list above is endless....I know we're singled out [gaming]. Gamblers may resent their own enjoyment of the pasttime, and hate us for providing them the service and opportunity for them to have some fun, and in the way they choose to - with the recommendation to "stiff 'em all" for it. Openly said and declared. Ye gads.
That post seems to have been a waste of space. There is simply no other entity that does whatever thay legally can to take the money you came in with, then entices the player to go to the cash machines to get more for the same reason, and when you're done spending money you have absolutely nothing to show for it but a miserable time.
A really tough industry to defend in the court of public opinion.
We are going to have to call in Nick Nailor. Thank you for gambling.
Along with:
Alcohol
Firearms
Tobacco
Adult Entertainment
I smoke, used to drink, do own longguns, - but my wife won't let me go to Treasures.
Quote: NareedOther than because it is up to all customers to help pay the salaries of all workers working for companies you buy goods or services from? Or do you demand a discount at Walmart because you won't pay for the salaries of the cashiers, stock boys, janitors, back office, personnel or anyone named Walton?
Does it matter if salaries are included in the prices charged or not? yes, because then you can tip (ie pay the salaries of service personnel) according to how valuable you deem such service to be worth.
Oh, BTW, when you meet a doctor he may say he hopes it's nothing serious, but he'll be secretly hoping you have cancer or heart disease or some other really dangerous, really expensive condition he may treat you for in exchange for tons and tons of money.
And it's offensive statements like this, which also happen to be wrong, why no one likes you.
I go into a casino not to help with employees' salaries, but to take as much cash from them as I'm able to. I have nothing to do with how management pays anyone's salaries, and I do not want anything to do with it. Just like how they feel about me. I am in there for only one reason. If WalMart offers pricing & products that I'm comfortable with then I will patronize them. If not I won't. I COULDN'T CARE LESS about what their salaries are, what their benefits are, or if any of them are about to lose their homes. Just as they feel about me. They want my money for what they are selling. Some service is good and some service is bad, but the price remains the same. That's all there is to it.
Doctors take an oath that they are expected to respect. If they are secretly hoping their patients have a terrible disease so he may become even more wealthier, if it doesn't affect MY treatment and well-being, they I don't care one bit about how he morally runs his hope for more lucrative business.
I wasn't aware that "no one likes me" because I have a wife of 32 years, two children, four grandchildren, and a plethora of friends who say they do. I will get right on that though and make sure there has been no changes that apparently only you are aware of.
Quote: RobSingerI wasn't aware that "no one likes me" because I have a wife of 32 years, two children, four grandchildren, and a plethora of friends who say they do. I will get right on that though and make sure there has been no changes that apparently only you are aware of.
I like ya. You don't mince words.
I might not like you at my table, but I don't worry about the tips, because they all balance out; hustling and worrying about tips are a dealer's waste of time. Oh...and the players' too. The less he hustles and worries, - the more relaxed and friendly he is on the game, - then the better his chance of getting tips anyway. I try to teach this to my fellow dealers.
Quote: RobSingerI go into a casino not to help with employees' salaries, but to take as much cash from them as I'm able to.
Then you shouldn't go into a casino, becasue they pay salaries with the money you spend there. Lots of employees don't get tipped. Few work for free.
Quote:Doctors take an oath that they are expected to respect. If they are secretly hoping their patients have a terrible disease so he may become even more wealthier, if it doesn't affect MY treatment and well-being, they I don't care one bit about how he morally runs his hope for more lucrative business.
So unnecesary X-rays that give you cancer don't affect you? are you sure all those expensive tests driving up your health insurance don't affect you? Maybe you like letting the doctors suck you dry a little bit at a time.
Quote:I wasn't aware that "no one likes me" because I have a wife of 32 years, two children, four grandchildren, and a plethora of friends who say they do. I will get right on that though and make sure there has been no changes that apparently only you are aware of.
If you go about insulting them as you do the people here, then either they're masochistic or stupid, or both.
Quote: Nareed
Oh, BTW, when you meet a doctor he may say he hopes it's nothing serious, but he'll be secretly hoping you have cancer or heart disease or some other really dangerous, really expensive condition he may treat you for in exchange for tons and tons of money.
Nareed, I really hope this was tongue in cheek. I cry too often at work for it to be true.
Quote: NareedThen you shouldn't go into a casino, becasue they pay salaries with the money you spend there. Lots of employees don't get tipped. Few work for free.
So unnecesary X-rays that give you cancer don't affect you? are you sure all those expensive tests driving up your health insurance don't affect you? Maybe you like letting the doctors suck you dry a little bit at a time.
If you go about insulting them as you do the people here, then either they're masochistic or stupid, or both.
Actually, you're wrong again right from the start. I absolutely should go into a casino because I've done very well in them over the years. Who works in them or why, or what their issues are, is not my concern.
I'm not the least bit concerned what tests the Dr. orders and why--or how much they cost or add to the health care woes. I trust them because I have no knowledge that another one would be any different. And when I go to the Dr. it's all about me and nobody else.
You're last sentence was puzzling at first, then I discovered why it was so sick: You reside in Mexico.
Quote: SOOPOONareed, I really hope this was tongue in cheek. I cry too often at work for it to be true.
Does it matter? Seriously, whatever's wrong with you is what's wrong with you despite what the doctor hopes. Just as the cards you get dealt in a casino don't depend on what the dealer hopes you'll get.
But, no, I wasn't seriously suggesting doctors think that way. I merely used little Jerry's logic for how he's certain dealers think; something he offered no evidence for, BTW. Doctors know they'll see their share of serious illnesses. I don't suppose they actually hope every patient is about to die.
Quote: RobSingerYou're last sentence was puzzling at first, then I discovered why it was so sick: You reside in Mexico.
As a "proffesional" writter you should know better than use a non-sequitur.
So I will assume you show a minimmum of good sense in your daily life, and don't go around insulting your friends, family and random strangers you happen to meet.
So, does it hurt knowing the casinos pay their employees with your money?
We are talking about tipping not profit. I have worked for people who earn 6 figure incomes from gamnling in the 50's and 60's. One had to testify before the Keafaufer Committee on gambling, another was extradited from Isreal to serve time for bookmaking. I once dealt 5 card stud in a bar owned by Blaze Starr's husband. None of thenm were as cheap as you, you don't tip cause you are CHEAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote: PaigowdanAs a game designer also,
BJ is a pretty perfect gaming product. It's #1. WE have all tried. Buzz, if you think it's a cinch, by all means, give it a go.
It gets tweaked for house edge and anti-card-counter measures, but cannot be beaten as a basic game design, and lord have we all tried!!!
Hell, anybody can do that. It's trying to get casinos to help in the slightest, Did you casino offer to give up say 1/256th of 1% of the floor space to exhibit your game ? Any assistance or financial incentive given to employees to improve blackjack or any table game ?
Anybody with half a brain should be able to figure out if you just increase the house edge 2% on any bet over the table minimum, then counters would be nullified.
Even Rob Singer, a nice enough fellow, just cheap, would admit that. Counter edge is 1.5 to 2 percent. YEAH but 2% is based on SD, late play, 100-1 swings in betting, hit split Aces, etc. Like that game exist anywhere on this planet. LOL
1.5 % at max and 30 percent of that profit comes from proper insurance play. Don't argue with me ROB I am just quoting Wiz and Stanford Wong DUH !!!
Quote: buzzpaffAnybody with half a brain should be able to figure out if you just increase the house edge 2% on any bet over the table minimum, then counters would be nullified.
Can you do that without nullifying Blackjack in the process?
I think what's been done are side bets for BJ. Those have well over a 2% edge and counters probably can't beat them.
Move the jackpots inside the game !!! Why is that so hard for the so-called Math Experts to figure out!!!
Professor Marvel: Professor Marvel never guesses, he knows!
Quote: RobSingerI also know I'm only going in with no other purpose than to take their money. I'm not going in to have a good time, to feel the ambience, to kill some time, or chat with the bartenders.
While I don't share your opinion, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. You're an advantage player, I'm a tourist. I go to work to make money and I go to casinos to have a good time and feel the ambiance.
Tipping is optional, that's what makes it a tip. I tip because I enjoy playing games with friendly live dealers. That extra money (in theory) will make dealing a more profitable career, attracting better applicants, increasing my gambling enjoyment.
If you are gambling professionally, you're at the table, doing your job and trying to make a living. Just like the dealer. It would make as much sense for the dealer to tip you. Maybe not tipping makes you a bad casino customer. But since you're an AP, the casino already considers you a bad customer, so why the hell not?
And quit trying to steal the waitress's tip when she's not looking LOL
Quote: buzzpaffOf course I can. Neither can the players beat side bets. That's why they come and go as soon as their novelty wears off,
Move the jackpots inside the game !!! Why is that so hard for the so-called Math Experts to figure out!!!
That's a great idea. How would you go about it? How about something similar for craps?
I've just gotten sick of the tipping culture in this country. Everywhere you look somebody has a tip jar out and it stinks. It's not that it makes me feel uncomfortable, I'm fine with not tipping for something stupid, it's just that so many people want to be given what they need instead of earning it.
Then there are some "services" that traditionally receive tips which I don't get. Cab drivers. We really don't have a choice in what cab we get, there really isn't much difference in how we get there, but a tip is expected. Why? I'm sure there are other services Rob can elaborate upon.
Quote: NareedAs a "proffesional" writter you should know better than use a non-sequitur.
So I will assume you show a minimmum of good sense in your daily life, and don't go around insulting your friends, family and random strangers you happen to meet.
So, does it hurt knowing the casinos pay their employees with your money?
There are instances where non-sequiturs can be used very effectively. I happen to find one here.
I've based my entire life on being sensible among all types of people in all kinds of places, as I've had to travel & live all over the world for many years before quitting to become a professional gambler. And because of that, I've been able to befriend goofballs like Jerry L. as well as find common ground with an intellectual like the Wizard. That being said, I don't think you dislike me as much as you say. It's my strictly disciplined, take-no-prisoner unorthodoxed approach to being a successful gambler that you can't stand. I believe you'd find the rest of me "normal".
Certainly I would not be happy knowing casinos were paying their emloyees with money that I've lost. But by and large that has not been the case.
Quote: buzzpaffOf course I can. Neither can the players beat side bets. That's why they come and go as soon as their novelty wears off,
Move the jackpots inside the game !!! Why is that so hard for the so-called Math Experts to figure out!!!
You could do all sorts of fun stuff with blackjack if you wanted to, but there's no room to do it in a 0.6% game. You'd need to do something drastic somewhere else to give you room for any bigger payouts, and that drastic change would essentially make the game "not blackjack". Spanish 21 did it by removing 10s from the deck. Super Fun 21 did it by making natural blackjacks pay 1-1. Those games are moderately successful, but they're nowhere near the success of the standard game.
Quote: RobSingerI've based my entire life on being sensible among all types of people in all kinds of places,
You should try doing so here.
Quote:That being said, I don't think you dislike me as much as you say.
Of course not. If I said how much I disliked you I'd be violating forum rules.
Quote:It's my strictly disciplined, take-no-prisoner unorthodoxed approach to being a successful gambler that you can't stand.
Look, if you're going to imitate users here, you shouldn't start with mkl. I dislike you because 1) you like insulting people you disagree with and 2) you like making nonsensical statements for which you blame other people. I don't even believe you're a successful gambler. I can't dislike you for that.
Quote:Certainly I would not be happy knowing casinos were paying their emloyees with money that I've lost. But by and large that has not been the case.
Really? Do you make them sign a contract saying all money obtained from you cannot be used to pay salaries?
Quote: NareedYou should try doing so here.
Of course not. If I said how much I disliked you I'd be violating forum rules.
Look, if you're going to imitate users here, you shouldn't start with mkl. I dislike you because 1) you like insulting people you disagree with and 2) you like making nonsensical statements for which you blame other people. I don't even believe you're a successful gambler. I can't dislike you for that.
Really? Do you make them sign a contract saying all money obtained from you cannot be used to pay salaries?
You seem to be a very bitter person. Do you recall why it is we've had these discussions? Yes, because you thought you'd butt into a chat I was having with WoE that would have ended long ago. Then you became so rattled that you felt it necessary to bad-mouth my family. I wonder what yours is like.
Start with MKL & "imitate users"? Not a clue what those represent. In fact the only thing that translates is that you don't believe I'm a successful gambler. I get that a lot, and it's close to 100% because people either don't understand my approach or they're extraordinarily jealous that I've done well with it. Why? Because most gamblers are not successful and have to have other sources of income--AP or not.
Really. I've only played for profit in Nevada casinos, and there is no Nevada casino that I am behind at over the past 14 years cumulative.
Quote: RobSingerYou seem to be a very bitter person. Do you recall why it is we've had these discussions? Yes, because you thought you'd butt into a chat I was having with WoE that would have ended long ago. Then you became so rattled that you felt it necessary to bad-mouth my family. I wonder what yours is like.
Bad mouth your family? When?
Here's what I said:
Quote:If you go about insulting them as you do the people here, then either they're masochistic or stupid, or both.
So for this to be any kind of bad mouthing of your family, then you'd have to go about insulting your wife, children and grandchildren (and perhaps your friends). And if that were so, why would you want to admit it in public?
See what I mean about nonsensical comments you blame on other people?
Oh, and I should think someone who boasts about writing would know the meaning f the word "If."
Quote:Start with MKL & "imitate users"? Not a clue what those represent.
Both of you seem to think no one could possibly dislike you because you act like jerks, so you fish around for some other reason. There is no other reason.
Quote:In fact the only thing that translates is that you don't believe I'm a successful gambler.
Very good. of course it's not as impressive as you'd like to think. A broken clock is right twice a day, and today you've been right only once.
Quote: MathExtremistYou could do all sorts of fun stuff with blackjack if you wanted to, but there's no room to do it in a 0.6% game. You'd need to do something drastic somewhere else to give you room for any bigger payouts, and that drastic change would essentially make the game "not blackjack". Spanish 21 did it by removing 10s from the deck. Super Fun 21 did it by making natural blackjacks pay 1-1. Those games are moderately successful, but they're nowhere near the success of the standard game.
Funny you should mention a 0.6 game. I believe not only can such a game be developed but that it can have jackpots of lets say $25 minimum table minor jackpots of $500, major jackpot of $50,000, liberal rules, double after split, dd any # of cards, Dealer stand on soft 17. And protection against advantage players. By simply raising the house edge on all bets above the minimum to 2 %. without any change in the rules , payouts, method of play, etc,
No need to remove any cards or add any either. Plain old deck of 52 cards used in SD games today.
And not ridiculous odds on hitting jackpots either, Say make major about 6 times harder than royal flush in video poker. The $500
should be more frequent. A full table should see a pre-stage 2 to 3 times an hour on average and have 2 opportunities to receive either of 2 cards in that single deck for his minor jackpot. Hell, give him 2 chances to build in that near miss feature common in slots today.
How hard can that be ???
I believe that. And you are cheap!!!
Now please, tell me about your family.
Quote: RobSingerAs I said, you seem to be a very bitter person, burdened with a neurotic need to be right or else, and incapable of admitting your insulting ways even in the face of documented evidence.
Oh, not at all. I'm insulting you as far as forum rules permit. Happy?
Quote:Now please, tell me about your family.
Why would I do that?
Quote: buzzpaffFunny you should mention a 0.6 game. I believe not only can such a game be developed but that it can have jackpots of lets say $25 minimum table minor jackpots of $500, major jackpot of $50,000, liberal rules, double after split, dd any # of cards, Dealer stand on soft 17. And protection against advantage players. By simply raising the house edge on all bets above the minimum to 2 %. without any change in the rules , payouts, method of play, etc,
No need to remove any cards or add any either. Plain old deck of 52 cards used in SD games today.
And not ridiculous odds on hitting jackpots either, Say make major about 6 times harder than royal flush in video poker. The $500
should be more frequent. A full table should see a pre-stage 2 to 3 times an hour on average and have 2 opportunities to receive either of 2 cards in that single deck for his minor jackpot. Hell, give him 2 chances to build in that near miss feature common in slots today.
How hard can that be ???
Are you saying you have a game where the min bet runs at 0.6% (or whatever) but all the money over the base bet is at 2% house edge, with no change to the play of the game of blackjack?
Or that you'd like to see such a game invented?
I'm just curious if it's the former, as I can't quite see how you can have such a game unless the bet-behind is a bit like the Odds in Craps and is subject to a slightly (or completely) different ruleset than the base bet which is I assume is resolve just like blackjack.
Not saying you can't do it, just you've peaked my curiousity enough that my bus ride home was spent thinking how such a game could exist.
Quote: NareedOh, not at all. I'm insulting you as far as forum rules permit. Happy?
Why would I do that?
I don't really think you know what you're doing.
Jerry must have injured you in a way that keeps on hurting. I haven't read much of what he wrote, but from what I know about him he has an extremely low opinion of smokers, he can't stomach gays or atheists, intellectuals annoy him, and the only Mexican I've ever heard him say anything nice about is his wife. I really have no clue if you're in any of those groups, but I highly suspect you are or else you wouldn't be exposing yourself as a hater as much as you have in this thread.
Now how about we conclude this and move on to something more worthy of this forum. Inasmuch as you've shown a propensity to have the last word or else you probably can't sleep, please indulge yourself.
Quote: buzzpaffBy simply raising the house edge on all bets above the minimum to 2 %. without any change in the rules , payouts, method of play, etc,
No need to remove any cards or add any either.
I think you're misunderstanding the dependence between the game rules and the house edge. The game rules and payouts are what specify the house edge. They're not independent; one cannot take a 0.6% blackjack game and, without changing any rules or payouts, turn it into a 2.0% blackjack game. Unless you're talking about a secondary wager (i.e. side bet), adding a jackpot *is* a rule change. How are you going to pay for it? Either with a secondary wager, or with a rule change that increases the edge on the main wager above 0.6%.
Now, the specificity in your example leads me to believe that you have developed a blackjack variant of some sort. But your odds are suspicious: the royal in VP is about 1 in 40,400; 6x that is 1 in 242,400. And you're paying 50k for that. If the minimum bet is $25, that costs you at least 0.8%. If you start with a 0.6% edge and give back 0.8%, your game is player-positive. You have to change *something* to pay for that feature -- what's it going to be?
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Of course it exists. Discovering how to do it was the easy part. Raising capital for Math analysis , marketing , etc has been the problem. I am 70 retired diabetic wife schizoaffective adult daughter, etc. Not complaining. I consider myself to be a rich man, just don't have any money.
And no times odds bet or anything like that. I believe all great breakthrough are simple. At least that has been the breakthrough in casino games. Caribbean Poker and Let it Ride were novel but the winner is definetly simplicity itself 3 Card Poker. The breakthrough in Video Poker was not a different deck of cards, sophisticated method of play, etc. It is Triple Play poker.
Not to diminish the great contribution by those 2 inventors.
So is there honesty from each side? No. There is however a reasonable degree of honesty.
Capping a bet... newbies don't even know its wrong. Casinos seem to realize that. There will be floor personnel who are too quick to react and also some who are too slow.
Its common to have excited utterances in the casino but people should make an effort to moderate their responses in accord with proper standards and concern for females who are present or perhaps just passing by. Its pretty much the same way with mistakes by the dealer. Some people will be greedy and never admit a dealer's mistake or call it to his attention Some dealers will be greedy too and will take advantage of a player being distracted or ignorant.
Yet to see one cap a losing bet !
Guardian of the Emerald City Gates: Well, that's more like it! Now, state your business!
Of course, capping is illegal. One can't change the wager after the bets are "closed" or the results are known.
With regards to tipping, it's all a matter of etiquette. RS may be in (some of) our eyes a cheap bastard, and I can't figure out how he differentiates one type of worker in the same establishment from another.
In a pure form, every bet has its HA, and if you tip from casino payouts, you are just diluting the HA. For example, if you play perfect JOB video poker but tip $10 every time you win $1,000 on a RF, that dilutes your HA by .0198 percent. That doesn't seem like much, but if you are pushing through $9,000 of coin over 8 hours ($1.25 x 15 x 60 x 8), that lowers your EV by $1.96. That's $10/week or $520/year, not insubstantial.
Inotherwords, if you frequent your time in a casino and tip whenever you have a hand-pay or substantial win, that will cost a lot of money in the long run. The same is true if you take a cab every day or stay in hotels every night or eat out a lot... the tip adds substantially to the cost.
Quote: Paigowdan1. You may use only your best, most effective strategy based on informaton you're "technically allowed" to see
2. Strategy plus being flashed some hole card information is okay
Fair play definitely includes counting, but it ends there.
Hole-carding is not cheating, but not fair play either. What should be technically done is a misdeal, but it's impractical.
It doesn't mean you should play as if you didn't know the hole card, that would be silly. But it's not fair winnings either.
Inducing dealer mistakes goes outright into the realm of cheating tactics.
I'd put it this way: if you were playing with a friend for one cent a hand, what would you consider fair? Same thing goes for a casino game, just because you feel better about taking extra from a game with a house edge doesn't yet make it fair.
Quote: boymimboIt seems that the prevailing opinion is that it is fair then to do everything legally possible in a casino to take money. One of the legal things you can do is accept a dealer's mispay. Of course the casino is free to review the tape and force players to give it back.
Of course, capping is illegal. One can't change the wager after the bets are "closed" or the results are known.
With regards to tipping, it's all a matter of etiquette. RS may be in (some of) our eyes a cheap bastard, and I can't figure out how he differentiates one type of worker in the same establishment from another.
In a pure form, every bet has its HA, and if you tip from casino payouts, you are just diluting the HA. For example, if you play perfect JOB video poker but tip $10 every time you win $1,000 on a RF, that dilutes your HA by .0198 percent. That doesn't seem like much, but if you are pushing through $9,000 of coin over 8 hours ($1.25 x 15 x 60 x 8), that lowers your EV by $1.96. That's $10/week or $520/year, not insubstantial.
Inotherwords, if you frequent your time in a casino and tip whenever you have a hand-pay or substantial win, that will cost a lot of money in the long run. The same is true if you take a cab every day or stay in hotels every night or eat out a lot... the tip adds substantially to the cost.
In my case, I average about $400k of W2G's a year, and there are other handpays that are under the $1200 threshhold. From talking to others the general handpay tipping rule of thumb seems to be on a 25cRF it's $20; 50cRF = $40; $1RF = $60; $2RF = $100; $5RF = $200; $10RF = $500; $25RF = $1000 (as high as I've hit) and there are numerous other handpays that are in-between those figures. So for my career, had I tipped, I'd have given away at least $100,000. That's almost 10% of my net profit and don't forget, most big players get at least the amount of W2G's I do and they do not win. So I see no sense in tipping in this gambling situation.
Quote: boymimboIt seems that the prevailing opinion is that it is fair then to do everything legally possible in a casino to take money.
By by extending this belief, players may come to feel that it is ethically fair then to do everything - often without regard to legality - to take the casino's money in return.
Casinos don't do everything legally possible to take money. They can't. They used to try - in the "dirty old school days."
They now have to follow a huge number of additional guidelines to maintain their repuation, the spector of fair play, the reality of decency and fair play, and to the roughest and toughest crowd called gamblers.
One of the reasons I was a bit fired up a couple of days ago was because I was punched (in the back) after calling a seven-out on a crap game, while dumping the bowl, by a guy walking off broke. The other side of the pit was busy, and this guy just took a shot (literally) while walking away. Okay, a little sting and a backache. No boxman on the game, he just walks away. The other dealers cringed, and said forget about. If a dealer does so much as gives a sarcastic comment to a player's big win [not that he should - he shoud feel fine about a player's good fortune], it's so unprofessional it's a write-up or termination.
Every business does everything possible to maximize their profits.
Few are regulated are hard by gaming authorities and by public opinion the way gaming is.
Quote: RobSingerIn my case, I average about $400k of W2G's a year, and there are other handpays that are under the $1200 threshhold. From talking to others the general handpay tipping rule of thumb seems to be on a 25cRF it's $20; 50cRF = $40; $1RF = $60; $2RF = $100; $5RF = $200; $10RF = $500; $25RF = $1000 (as high as I've hit) and there are numerous other handpays that are in-between those figures. So for my career, had I tipped, I'd have given away at least $100,000. That's almost 10% of my net profit and don't forget, most big players get at least the amount of W2G's I do and they do not win. So I see no sense in tipping in this gambling situation.
I have no idea why I should tip on a hand pay cash out. Especially not giving the attendant a grand. I have no idea how common that would be, but even if I ever do hit a 25c RF, I'd not be tipping... they didn't deal me cards, they didn't bring be a beer, they paid me what I am owed by the casino. Maybe I'd give the barman a 5-spot at his bar if I hit a Royal, but I normally tip them relatively well anyways. I don't mind paying for beer.
Dropping 2% of my win on a RF to the person whose job it is to give me the money I won seems indeed daft.
It's a far different thing from tipping a buck to the boys on the craps table.... there hey are providing a service, and hopefully entertainment, and I tip them as I would tip a good barman or server. And note I'm not tipping the dealers for giving me my winnings. I tend to tip every so often regardless of my winning or losing. Same on the poker table. All the good dealers get the same toke from me whether I rake in a pot on their down or not. I've had flak for this from players after winning massive pots and not giving the dealer their "cut". Except that every dealer for the last 3 hours had had a cut of my stack, whether they gave the nut-flush that got me action or they dealt me 7-2o for 30 minutes.
Quote: buzzpaffOf course it exists. Discovering how to do it was the easy part. Raising capital for Math analysis , marketing , etc has been the problem. I am 70 retired diabetic wife schizoaffective adult daughter, etc. Not complaining. I consider myself to be a rich man, just don't have any money.
And no times odds bet or anything like that. I believe all great breakthrough are simple. At least that has been the breakthrough in casino games. Caribbean Poker and Let it Ride were novel but the winner is definetly simplicity itself 3 Card Poker. The breakthrough in Video Poker was not a different deck of cards, sophisticated method of play, etc. It is Triple Play poker.
Not to diminish the great contribution by those 2 inventors.
No worries, if it ever gets into the real world, or there information about it, it'll be interesting. I can't see how you do such a thing to make one bet have two differnt parts to the HE, but without the details, I'm at a loss to reverse-engineer it, how ever easy it is to come up with in the first case.
One can argue that it is like - "why should I tip the waiter? He just brought me the food, he didn't enjoy it! It was me who worked hard to enjoy the meal." The waiter may differ.
I also deal with the waiter whether or not I "win" with the dining. I've never interacted with a slot attendant in all my visits to a casino. Yeah, I'm a loser, baby.
I don't even see WHY I need a hand pay. Print me a damn ticket and I'll go to the window to collect, thanks. The hand pay seems to be for the casino's protection, not mine.
Quote: boymimboIt seems that the prevailing opinion is that it is fair then to do everything legally possible in a casino to take money. One of the legal things you can do is accept a dealer's mispay. Of course the casino is free to review the tape and force players to give it back.
Of course, capping is illegal. One can't change the wager after the bets are "closed" or the results are known.
With regards to tipping, it's all a matter of etiquette. RS may be in (some of) our eyes a cheap bastard, and I can't figure out how he differentiates one type of worker in the same establishment from another.
In a pure form, every bet has its HA, and if you tip from casino payouts, you are just diluting the HA. For example, if you play perfect JOB video poker but tip $10 every time you win $1,000 on a RF, that dilutes your HA by .0198 percent. That doesn't seem like much, but if you are pushing through $9,000 of coin over 8 hours ($1.25 x 15 x 60 x 8), that lowers your EV by $1.96. That's $10/week or $520/year, not insubstantial.
Inotherwords, if you frequent your time in a casino and tip whenever you have a hand-pay or substantial win, that will cost a lot of money in the long run. The same is true if you take a cab every day or stay in hotels every night or eat out a lot... the tip adds substantially to the cost.
So I can conclude you don't tip the waitress either. Gee $10 every time you hit a royal flush and you hit one every week. Yet you are still playing quarters, And I am supposed to believe that ROFLMAO
Dorothy: Lions, and tigers, and bears! Oh, my!
Quote: thecesspitThe waiter is an integral part of the dining experience... a good waiter makes the whole experience much better, and bad one can ruin an otherwise good dinner.
Okay, now, is the table games dealer an integral part of the table game experience? If he's gracious, patient, entertaining and accurate, does he deserve a tip, like a waiter?
Edit: This thread is about the ethics of fair play in gambling, it might include handling of tip worthiness or compensation.
