If a Major Casino Offered 10x Odds on Craps...

What would you suppose would happen if a major casino on the strip offered 10x odds on craps?

I would argue that a large casino would be bankrolled sufficiently to be able to take the larger swings that having 10x odds would create. And by offering 10x odds they could advertise that they have one of the most favorable craps table on the strip. I argue that their craps revenue increases significantly, and by default, so will their other table games (as craps winners wander to their favorite 3 card poker tables).

Perhaps there is no real advantage for the major chains to do this, but what about a casino like Treasure Island? If they run a major advertising campaign, they could get a lot of the serious craps players to transfer their play over there. Treasure Island is a nice enough hotel/resort where some mid-rollers would feel comfortable moving their action over.

This is part of a larger question, as in, why doesn't one Strip casino offer better games/better odds so as to attract more customers away from its immediate competitors? The answer is that no casino wants to engage in an "arms race". If the strategy of offering the better games was successful, then all the other casinos would eventually copy it. Then the original casino would find itself in the same place it was before--but everyone's costs would have risen as a result.

So while it might be advantageous in the short run for a casino to do this, I would suspect that there is enormous "peer pressure" not to, and while forty years ago, that "peer pressure" may have involved Vito sitting on your head, I have no doubt that equally coercive measures are used today.

Of course, there's always the Harrah's strategy, which is to attempt to ensure that there IS no competition.

There's essentially an oligarchy on the Strip, with two companies running all of the action. 3/4/5x reigns. Harrahs has poorer odds in the center and offer the Fire bet, while MGM offers better odds in the center and does not. The other small casinos will offer better odds.

When Foxwoods went to 5x, Mohegan Sun followed. If MGM went 5x or 10x, Harrahs would follow. They won't.

The 'Strat' offers 10x odds, but that gets tempered with the vig collected up front on the buy 4/10. And no, I do not consider the Start to be a strip casino, as it is just too far from the rest of them. However, it doesn't take much effort to get there by jumping on the Ace or Duece. I have gone up once each time my last two trips, and the craps tables are dead dead dead. No one seems to be playing them. Now I have been there during the day, so maybe they get more play at night.

So as much as I would like to see a 10x game on the strip, I don't see any incentive for any of he current ones to offer it. Why should they risk messing up their hold for the low incremental increase in play. Now if it would double or triple their total craps action, that might make a difference, but I don't think it would have that type of effect.

Casino Royale of course offers the best odds, on the strip, at 20x and 100x. It may be a bit of a dive, but it's fun to throw that $100 odds on the $5 bet (not that I've ever done it!)

As far as I can tell, the major strip casinos are not interested in competing for craps players or other table game players at low stakes. Just look at the terrible blackjack rules. These days, table games are a sideline to the major business: Resort hotel + High priced dining / lounges + slot machines. Of course, for high rollers, its a different story, but for $5-$25 range we are just 'fleas', and 10x odds would just attract more fleas.

Likely also:

1) since odds bets pay true odds, raising them to 10X would cut on the casinos' income (i know they should make it up in volume, but all too many people don't)

2) Higher free odds might attract gamblers looking for the good bet, which tend to lose less.

3) More money bet on free odds means less money on the fire bet, the field and the center bets.

They don't need to as they get plenty of action already.

The odds are where they are on the Strip because that's what the market will bear. If you don't like it, as previously mentioned, you can go to the Casino Royale, or downtown LV, or Mississippi (10-20x most places, 100x in a few), or Chicago (100x in all the Indiana casinos).

The casinos can certainly "afford" to raise them; odds are zero-sum, after all. At least two Harrah's properties are at 100x, in case you think this is all the fault of the nefarious monolithic Harrah's or Caesar's or whatever it's called this month chain.

It's only a small segment of the craps-playing public that "demands" higher odds than 345x. When I am at a 10x or above table I see very few people taking the full 10x (and I don't always either, especially on no 4 and no 10). Those who are taking the full 10x are usually betting the minimum or close to it. If I'm the house I'd rather try to get away with raising the minimum on these people.

Quote: DrEntropy

As far as I can tell, the major strip casinos are not interested in competing for craps players or other table game players at low stakes. Just look at the terrible blackjack rules. These days, table games are a sideline to the major business: Resort hotel + High priced dining / lounges + slot machines. Of course, for high rollers, its a different story, but for $5-$25 range we are just 'fleas', and 10x odds would just attract more fleas.

I think there's some validity to this. Vegas casino revenue nowadays is split roughly evenly between hotel bookings, floor revenue and (together) ancillary sources such as shopping, dining and nightlife. So the casino isn't as big a slice of the pie as it used to be (however, perhaps surprisingly it has come back the strongest after the recession). There seems to be lot of competition on hotels (either through cutting room rates or advertising amenities) and other services, but very little of the marketing from Vegas today seems to be about the quality of the gambling. This isn't the case outside of Vegas, where you will usually find better odds.

By extension, one can argue that Vegas can't compete, or isn't trying to compete, with other places on gambling.

Quote: gambler

What would you suppose would happen if a major casino on the strip offered 10x odds on craps?

I would argue that a large casino would be bankrolled sufficiently to be able to take the larger swings that having 10x odds would create. And by offering 10x odds they could advertise that they have one of the most favorable craps table on the strip. I argue that their craps revenue increases significantly, and by default, so will their other table games (as craps winners wander to their favorite 3 card poker tables).

Perhaps there is no real advantage for the major chains to do this, but what about a casino like Treasure Island? If they run a major advertising campaign, they could get a lot of the serious craps players to transfer their play over there. Treasure Island is a nice enough hotel/resort where some mid-rollers would feel comfortable moving their action over.

Craps represents 4.23% of the gaming revenue of Vegas strip, and 2.63% of the gaming revenue of the portion of Clark county not on the strip. If a 4 diamond hotel like Treasure Island began offering extra odds (a bet at which they make no money), do you really believe that their revenue would increase? I think that just the opposite would occur. They would be inundated with craps players who would be betting a lot of money on odds at no advantage to Treasure Island, but they would not spend any money on anything else, and most of them would expect comps commensurate with the cash they are laying down.

In reading some books, I get the impression that whales are privately offered the right to bet larger free odds to make them feel special. There is little or no advantage to advertising free odds. It is left to the off strip casinos to solicit customers that way.

Besides there is one four diamond hotel and resort in urban Las Vegas that does solicit customers with large free odds. The Marriot at Summerlin with the Rampart Casino offers 100X odds on craps, and has quality comparable to other four diamond resorts like Treasure Island, MGM Grand and Mandalay Bay.

In general strip casinos do not compete on gambling house edge in any game. You could ask this question about slots, video poker, or any other game.

Quote: gambler

What would you suppose would happen if a major casino on the strip offered 10x odds on craps?

I would argue that a large casino would be bankrolled sufficiently to be able to take the larger swings that having 10x odds would create. And by offering 10x odds they could advertise that they have one of the most favorable craps table on the strip. I argue that their craps revenue increases significantly, and by default, so will their other table games (as craps winners wander to their favorite 3 card poker tables).

Perhaps there is no real advantage for the major chains to do this, but what about a casino like Treasure Island? If they run a major advertising campaign, they could get a lot of the serious craps players to transfer their play over there. Treasure Island is a nice enough hotel/resort where some mid-rollers would feel comfortable moving their action over.

It would be great. I would go there. However, I think other casinos would be forced to, and would quickly follow. Double odds were the norm for many years on the Strip. I don't know who was first to break the ice at 3-4-5, but everyone else had to follow.

Quote: pacomartin

In general strip casinos do not compete on gambling house edge in any game. You could ask this question about slots, video poker, or any other game.

Okay, on what do strip casinos compete?

Would not a Strip Casino which breaks ranks and does crank up the odds draw loyal customers and well as mere players. Go to Casino X for their high odds, do well, enjoy the place, come back and stay there spending on Shows, Restaurants, and leaving those winnings from the first trip at the craps table!

Quote: FleaStiff

Okay, on what do strip casinos compete?

Food, drink, sex (pole dancers at Planet Hollywood). Bally's Wild Wild West in Atlantic City offers 100X odds, and it does not seem to have done much to increase business. Let's see whether anyone here can recall or even heard of bettors laying or taking, say, 50X or 75X.

It is great for advertising, though, just like the McDonald's "We have healthy salads" campaign that didn't really sell that much salad but spread the general impression that McDonald's was serving healthier food.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Let's see whether anyone here can recall or even heard of bettors laying or taking, say, 50X or 75X.

I made this table for a similar thread. Off the strip, in Clark County the 130 craps tables makes between $1000 and $2000 per day on average, and the total drop is 8 to 11 times that amount. Many of the off strip casinos offer odds on at least some tables at better than 3X, 4X, or 5X.

There is no sign that people are throwing huge amounts of money at these tables. Craps is a stable part of the income of these casinos, but it is only a few percentage points of the overall revenue.

AREA	$K /day/table	Craps tables	$K per day
Total Strip	$3.33	201	$669.1
Total Non Strip	$1.75	130	$227.2
Downtown	$2.09	37	$77.3
Boulder	$1.89	26	$49.1
Balance of C. County	$1.76	36	$63.2
Laughlin	$1.31	16	$21.0
Mesquite	$1.15	4	$4.6
North Las Vegas	$1.09	11	$12.0

Rampart	100x
Main Street Station	20x
Eastside Cannery	20x
Sam's Town	20x
Stratosphere	10x
El Cortez	10x
Golden Gate	10x
Las Vegas Club	10x
Aliante Station	10x
Arizona Charlie's Boulder	10x
Boulder Station	10x
Cannery	10x
Fiesta Rancho	10x
Joker Wild	10x
Palace Station	10x
Santa Fe Station	10x
Silverton	10x
Sunset Station	10x
Texas Station	10x
Fiesta Henderson	10x
Joker Wild	10x
Sahara	5x
Binion's	5x
Four Queens	5x
Arizona Charlie's Decatur	5x
Lucky's	5x
Speedway	5x
Suncoast	5x

Yeah, some people would go to a casino that offers 100x even though they absolutely know they will never even reach 5x in their own gambling... sort of like those who like the Fresh Salad Advertising but know they will never order salads. I guess the odds offered at craps is a draw to some segment of the market just as party pit girls is a draw. I know I would go to casino that offered 100x at a craps table just to watch and see if anyone actually puts that much money behind their bets. I'd sort of be going to a place that has fresh salads even though I don't eat salads. I guess people are strange in their customer loyalty habits.

Eaststide Cannery... ain't that 100x also?