Let's Get Back To Gambling Talk - Place or Come

Quote: RonC

Martin did cross the line, but if someone makes a statement that is clearly not what was said just to show how smart they are, they are attempting to push people across the line....

And who is going to pass the judgment that any such statement was, in fact, made "just to show how smart they were"? JerryLogan makes such value judgments all the time, but the truth is, nobody here in enough of a mind reader to tell WHY someone made a post.

For the record, Martin said:

I tell every new comer I meet at the table - there's no money on the line - the only money is in the boxes either through place or come bets.

And I said:

It is fallacious thinking to believe that come bets are somehow more likely to win than pass line bets. In reality, each type of bet has the exact same probability of winning.

It seemed to me that that is what Martin's was saying when he wrote "there's no money on the line...". And of course, place bets are even WORSE, not just only equivalent to pass line bets. If he meant something entirely different, I'm sorry I misconstrued it. I wasn't attempting to "push anyone across the line", and Martin's reaction was in any case inappropriate. From the somewhat chaotic nature of his posts on this thread, I really couldn't tell whether he was just another of those people who post here and elsewhere who have no real understanding of the nature of math/gambling, or someone with a truly new and original idea. (The answer seems to be "neither".)

Quote: Wizard

Thank you. It came off like you were enthusiastically agreeing with the insult. Apology accepted, from me at least. No response necessary.

Whether or not I'm justified in doing so, I regard this as an apology to me as well, and I also accept it.

7winner

I don't see where this thread has anything to do with tipping, but now that we are on the subject, and I play on the other side of the table let me give you the players perspective.

To get things straight and just to let you know where I am coming from, I toke as I am playing making sure that the dealers make money as I play. All my tokes are under my control, and are started out at a $1 bet on the point that I just hit, the $1 gets pressed with every hit I make on that point. The dealers take the profit of every hit and I add to the bet for them with every hit. I also give them the option if they want the bet on a hardway if I am hitting them.

Also at the end of my session there is a hand in, if I won! Yes there are times that I have stayed at the table to long and lost money, but the dealers made money the way I toke them, and they are not looking for the hand-in at the end of my session if I lost money. Their money is already locked up in the toke box!

There are dealers that I never have to say a word to about how I am going to bet, and if I missed a bet that I would make they always remind me of the bet. They are the dealers that deserve being toked, but any more when you go to the tables you will have that one dealer in the crew that is just a jerk, and hates dealing the game, they have no business in a casino.

There have been many times that I will tell the crew that a certain dealer is costing them tokes, and why don't you have a talk with the offending dealer, only to be told that it would be no use talking to that dealer! Then it's like what the hell, you guys just don't care about what you make, if you can't talk to the jerk!

Sometimes dealers just must not be thinking about what they are talking about when they are dealing the game there is nothing like hearing about how much they hate dealing the game, and they want to take a early-out! Then you have the dealer that as soon as the player walks away form the table, they are calling him jerk, and any other name they can come up with! Gee I wonder what the guy standing across from me really thinks when we walk away from the table!

Quote:

Just because, as a dealer, we give good service, treat our players with respect and we know what we are doing, less than 33% of players tipped.

7winner... are you reading what you are writing, because it sounds like to me that you are just complaining about not making the same tokes that you use to, when every dealer on the table liked their job, yes that was back in the 70's!

Quote:

Back in the 70s we could get away with more hustling tokes, it was done with humor and in fun, but worked to a tee.
Almost everyone toked back then. But too many dealers abused it. I miss those days. $500 tip nights!

You still have dealers hustling tokes, but there is a big difference in the way they do it, and some times it is down right discussing what some of the dealers are doing to players that don't have a clue about the game!

There is a lot of really bad advice coming from some of the dealers at times, when they have a new player on the table! Although that is none of my business, it does effect the way I will toke if I don't know the dealers, and I am playing in a casino that, I don't play in all the time because I have a DI friend that want's to play in a certain casino!

As far as giving advice at the tables the only time I will ever do that is when a players ask for it!

Today is nothing like the 70's where all the dealers knew what they were doing, and they wanted you to win because they knew that they would be getting tokes, yes everything in the casinos have changed for the worst, and that includes the dealers now days, sorry to say that but it's the truth!

Quote:

Ever so true.
Actually when I dealt Dice, we were told to keep the betting advice to the pass line. It was an easy bet to make and to explain.
Now a days dealers seem to have control over what they can tell the new players. You see field bets, hardway bets, yo bets...yuck

That is why some crews make on tokes, the new dealers don't care about anything that is happening with the game they are just there to put in 8 hours, and complain when they are making no tokes, there are a few exception's, and from a players point of view these dealers still make the game fun to play!

7winner... It sounds like you were one of the dealers that all players like to toke, but that one bad dealer that you have to work with everyday will drag the crews tokes down!

I think you said it right, when you said:

Quote:

Good service is a dying art sad to say.

...

I don't feel like reading the whole thread so someone may have this point, but.... What is all this nonsense about pass vs. come? That wasn't the question. Answering the question, anyone who places 4,5,9, or 10 doesn't know how to play. The percentages on pass/come or placing 6/8 are very close, but percentage on placing 5/9 is over 4%, and if you place 4 or 10, you might as well play slots.

I'm sure you meant to say that you should buy the 4, 5, 9, and 10 with vig on win only.

>I don't feel like reading the whole thread
Too many argumentative posts anyway.
>What is all this nonsense about pass vs. come?
Just that: Nonsense. Pass and Come bets are the exact same thing, simply done at different times.
>That wasn't the question.
Quite Right. Its Place versus Come that is the question but unfortunately Place Betting is a term that can be further sliced into Placing the 6 or 8 versus other place bets that are higher house edge bets.
> Answering the question, anyone who places 4,5,9, or 10 doesn't know how to play.
Well, I wouldn't go quite that far but I do understand your comment to mean that Placing those other numbers has a steep edge.
> The percentages on pass/come or placing 6/8 are very close,
Yes, and for once I think that Monte Carlo Methods would be the correct determinant here to answer the question. If you run trial after trial, do the bets actually turn out to have any substantial difference. I would tend to think not, but do understand that the practical realities of actual play can trump mathematical expectations.
>but percentage on placing 5/9 is over 4%, and if you place 4 or 10, you might as well play slots.
Well, placing the 4 or 10 are not quite that bad, but I do understand your theme here: We can't just say "Place Bets" we really have to have greater granularity and differentiate between the various Place Bet options, as well as the various Buy Bet options which are nothing but Place bets after (possibly) paying a premium to buy the true odds.

For those who take a long term view and truly believe in mathematics: House Edge determines the answer and therefore your statement about "The percentages on pass/come or placing 6/8 are very close" is the answer.
For those who take a shorter term view and suspect that there might be a difference between the mathematically expected and the real world, Monte Carlo Methods provide the answer.
Of course, in the real world ... its the stickchick who will tell us what the roll was irrespective of what the math says it should have been.

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Quote: ahiromu

Where's the choice for the Big 6/8 on the poll? Everyone knows that's the way to go.

I like place betting the 6/8 because you win on the first hit (as compared to come betting), HA remains low, and it's easier to press. I know you can press with more odds, but it isn't really the same.

No, it's not the same, because with odds you do not add any expected loss, whereas with place bets every additional dollar is "taxed".
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, Ca

As far as sticking to the pass line vs. making come bets is concerned, you get more variance per dollar bet by just playing pass.

10 $100 pass bets: handle: $1000, ev: -$14.14, SD: $316
100 $10 pass/come bets: handle $1000, ev: -$14.14, SD: $100

Now, of course if you're betting the table maximum on the pass line, you can only increase your risk/opportunity by making additional bets, come or place bets, presumably. But if you're not betting the table max or taking max odds, then you get the same ev, but more variance, by upping your pass bet/odds than by making come bets, assuming the total handle is the same.

As far as place bets are concerned, we all know that superrick pretends the come bet starts only when its point is established, a common delusion.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA