Let's Get Back To Gambling Talk - Place or Come
Poll
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36 members have voted
I tell every new comer I meet at the table - there's no money on the line - the only money is in the boxes either through place or come bets.
What's your preference, and why?
Quote: MartinAlthough I am a dark sider by nature I hate standing around during long hands waiting for the inevitable. Consequently I place bet and sometimes, especially during long hands, I make a lot more money place betting than don't betting.
I tell every new comer I meet at the table - there's no money on the line - the only money is in the boxes either through place or come bets.
What's your preference, and why?
My preference is the place numbers, though.....
For the come out I like my 6\5, 5\6 set
For place bets I like my 6\5, 5\4 set
I like that little box that has those horny bets. Absoultly love the straight six's set...
Quote: MartinAlthough I am a dark sider by nature I hate standing around during long hands waiting for the inevitable. Consequently I place bet and sometimes, especially during long hands, I make a lot more money place betting than don't betting.
I tell every new comer I meet at the table - there's no money on the line - the only money is in the boxes either through place or come bets.
What's your preference, and why?
Come bets and pass line bets are exactly equivalent. Therefore, it's incorrect to tell someone that a pass line bet is worse (or better) than a come bet. And a place bet is worse than either.
Quote: mkl654321Come bets and pass line bets are exactly equivalent. Therefore, it's incorrect to tell someone that a pass line bet is worse (or better) than a come bet. And a place bet is worse than either.
Yes in a mathematical sense that is correct - however, you understand craps as a game - I understand it as a sport. That is a an insurmountable difference between us. To me craps contains small risk and large risk but no risk that I am unwilling to take. If you are not willing to take a risk then keep your money in your pocket.
It is not incorrect to play at a sport the way I play it - just as it is not incorrect for you to play at a game the way you play it.
Therefore I feel that you owe me an apology.
Quote: MartinYes in a mathematical sense that is correct - however, you understand craps as a game - I understand it as a sport. That is a an insurmountable difference between us. To me craps contains small risk and large risk but no risk that I am unwilling to take. If you are not willing to take a risk then keep your money in your pocket.
It is not incorrect to play at a sport the way I play it - just as it is not incorrect for you to play at a game the way you play it.
Therefore I feel that you owe me an apology.
Sorry, no. You can play the game any way you like. I was referring to your penchant for telling new players that the pass line bet is inferior to the come bet, which is not true.
Quote: mkl654321Sorry, no. You can play the game any way you like. I was referring to your penchant for telling new players that the pass line bet is inferior to the come bet, which is not true.
Yes you do -
I admit both bets are mathematically the same - of that there is no dispute -
What I am saying is that the opportunity cost of the pass line bet is greater than the opportunity cost of the come bet.
Quote: MartinYes you do -
I admit both bets are mathematically the same - of that there is no dispute -
What I am saying is that the opportunity cost of the pass line bet is greater than the opportunity cost of the come bet.
No, they are equal, assuming the bets are of equal size.
"Opportunity cost" means what you forgo in order to do something. In the case of a craps bet, the opportunity cost is whatever else you could have spent the money on, and whatever else you could have done with the time it took to make the bet. Since that time is a few seconds in each case, and the bets have identical HA's, their opportunity costs are equal.
Quote: MartinI admit both bets are mathematically the same - of that there is no dispute -
What I am saying is that the opportunity cost of the pass line bet is greater than the opportunity cost of the come bet.
What are you using to measure opportunity cost, if not math?
I know the math, I accept the risk, and in the same half hour that some might make a couple of bucks on a pass line bet I might make a couple of thousand on my come bets. Who maximized the opportunity and who did not?
Same math, same rules, just a different approach - I stand by my contention - there is no money on the pass line - it is all in the little boxes by the dealers.
Quote: Martin
I tell every new comer I meet at the table - there's no money on the line - the only money is in the boxes either through place or come bets.
What's your preference, and why?
Very BAD incomplete advise.
There is BIG money on the pass line.
There is some money in the boxes but you better have a BIG bankroll or many bankrolls to withstand the very large variance that goes with those bets.
Quote: guido111Very BAD incomplete advise.
There is BIG money on the pass line.
There is some money in the boxes but you better have a BIG bankroll or many bankrolls to withstand the very large variance that goes with those bets.
And those box numbers have a way higher house edge than just the pass with no or single odds.
Pass Line rocks!
Quote: MartinConsequently I place bet and sometimes, especially during long hands, I make a lot more money place betting than don't betting.
And one will lose more money place betting than lose by don't betting.
Quote: 7winnerAnd those box numbers have a way higher house edge than just the pass with no or single odds.
Pass Line rocks!
A come bet has the exact same edge as does a pass line bet - that's been established for a long time. The place bets are a bit longer, yes but not he come bets.
I think the only mode under which I endorse Martin's statement is with this interpretation: There is no money on the pass line, only chips being wagered, and "the little boxes by the dealers" refers to the drop boxes, where there actually is a good bit of money most of the time.Quote: Martin... I stand by my contention - there is no money on the pass line - it is all in the little boxes by the dealers.
Quote: guido111And one will lose more money place betting than lose by don't betting.
That is not necessarily true - it depends on how much you bet. But I really don't feel like debating it. Do you ever venture off the don't pass line and bet something else?
That's more or less the question.
Quote: DocI think the only mode under which I endorse Martin's statement is with this interpretation: There is no money on the pass line, only chips being wagered, and "the little boxes by the dealers" refers to the drop boxes, where there actually is a good bit of money most of the time.
I stand by my contention - you can't make money on the pass line - you can only "grind" and grinders lose in all things. The only place where you can make money in craps is in the "point boxes" by the dealers.
Quote: MathExtremistBut you have to balance out time vs. loss rate. Your most time-efficient play is to put your entire bankroll on one bet and then, win or lose, walk away. You have the same amount of wager volume in approximately 15 seconds, and then you can use the remainder of the time for something else. That's obviously not what you want to do, though. Is the question "how do I spend 30 minutes at a dice table where I'm actively making (or winning) a bet every roll?"
Your first statement is correct. However in my book the money in craps is in the volatility. The value add is the opportunity to put the same money back to work over and over and over again. Yes there is a probability of losing your buy-in - as I have said that is a risk - I accept the risk but I am after the biggest reward. The biggest reward comes from the opportunity to play the hand for all it is worth.
I seldom lost money when I played a simple game of don't pass + 2 or 3X odds. If I went down eventually the pendulum swung and I got back even again. Sometimes it took hours. On a good day I might have cashed out a couple hundred ahead. One day I'm shooting (from the pass line) and my hand lasted through three stick changes. I cashed out about $500 not including buy-in - a guy at the other end of the table cashed out $22 thousand. All of it made on my roll since he came in just as I started with about a grand buy-in. He wasn't playing the pass line at all. I thought about that for a long time and came to the conclusion that I was doing something really, really wrong. I was leaving opportunity on the table.
I stand by my contention.
So, ME - What do you play - come or place and why?
I like place betting the 6/8 because you win on the first hit (as compared to come betting), HA remains low, and it's easier to press. I know you can press with more odds, but it isn't really the same.
Quote: MartinOne day I'm shooting (from the pass line) and my hand lasted through three stick changes. I cashed out about $500 not including buy-in - a guy at the other end of the table cashed out $22 thousand. All of it made on my roll since he came in just as I started with about a grand buy-in. He wasn't playing the pass line at all. I thought about that for a long time and came to the conclusion that I was doing something really, really wrong. I was leaving opportunity on the table.
I stand by my contention.
So, ME - What do you play - come or place and why?
You held the dice for an hour or more and a guy that bought in for $1000 made ONLY $22,000.
Should have been over $220,000!
The problem is, that same guy lost way over $30,000 or more before he won his $22,000.
In my over 30 years of dealing Dice, the loudest players when it comes to the best ways of winning were the place bettors.
The largest consistent losers...the place bettors.
The worst tippers...you guessed it...the place bettors.
Believe what you want.
Why not add Dice Control to the formula and break the casinos while you are at it.
All of us craps players, except probably MathExtremist and the Wizard, misstate, or lie if you will, about how much we win and how much we lose.
ALWAYS, we win more than we actually do win and we lose less that we actually do lose.
Quote: MartinYour first statement is correct. However in my book the money in craps is in the volatility. The value add is the opportunity to put the same money back to work over and over and over again. Yes there is a probability of losing your buy-in - as I have said that is a risk - I accept the risk but I am after the biggest reward. The biggest reward comes from the opportunity to play the hand for all it is worth.
I seldom lost money when I played a simple game of don't pass + 2 or 3X odds. If I went down eventually the pendulum swung and I got back even again. Sometimes it took hours. On a good day I might have cashed out a couple hundred ahead. One day I'm shooting (from the pass line) and my hand lasted through three stick changes. I cashed out about $500 not including buy-in - a guy at the other end of the table cashed out $22 thousand. All of it made on my roll since he came in just as I started with about a grand buy-in. He wasn't playing the pass line at all. I thought about that for a long time and came to the conclusion that I was doing something really, really wrong. I was leaving opportunity on the table.
I stand by my contention.
So, ME - What do you play - come or place and why?
You're right about the volatility, but if that's what you're after then come + full odds is clearly the way to go. Far more volatility/EV than the place bets. I play come bets almost exclusively, and I press my odds and then my flat bets. There is nothing like going off-and-on with the bases loaded, pocketing part of the winnings and then pressing the rest. The optimal press rate is phi, the golden mean, but that's about 62% -- hard to calculate with chips. You can approximate by pressing half every win.
Here's the thing - if you're comparing flat pass/come + odds to pressed place bets, there's no question which has the higher winning potential. It's the place bets. Now, place bets are easy to press - you do it when you win. Come bets are harder to press, but once you figure out how to do it, it's more fun (imo). More work too, but nobody said craps was simple.
Quote: 7winnerYou held the dice for an hour or more and a guy that bought in for $1000 made ONLY $22,000.
Should have been over $220,000!
The problem is, that same guy lost way over $30,000 or more before he won his $22,000.
In my over 30 years of dealing Dice, the loudest players when it comes to the best was of winning were the place bettors.
The largest consistent losers...the place bettors.
The worst tippers...you guessed it...the place bettors.
Believe what you want.
Why not add Dice Control to the formula and break the casinos while you are at it.
All of us craps players, except probably MathExtremist and the Wizard, misstate, or lie if you will, about how much we win and how much we lose.
ALWAYS, we win more than we actually do win and we lose less that we actually do lose.
Now that's not necessary. I was at the table I saw what he cashed in - it was a lot more than I did - it truly is that simple. I don't know why he didn't get 220000 or even 2.5 million I wasn't watching his bets.
I never lie about what I win or lose.
As for dice control - I'm not sure where that came from since I never mentioned it - nor did I say anything about breaking casinos. All I said was I think that place betting and come betting is the better bet for someone such as myself who likes the volatility and the ability to keep a lot of money in play.
Why you take offense at such simple statements is beyond me.
Please don't bother responding - you are no one to me.
Quote: MathExtremistYou're right about the volatility, but if that's what you're after then come + full odds is clearly the way to go. Far more volatility/EV than the place bets. I play come bets almost exclusively, and I press my odds and then my flat bets. There is nothing like going off-and-on with the bases loaded, pocketing part of the winnings and then pressing the rest. The optimal press rate is phi, the golden mean, but that's about 62% -- hard to calculate with chips. You can approximate by pressing half every win.
Here's the thing - if you're comparing flat pass/come + odds to pressed place bets, there's no question which has the higher winning potential. It's the place bets. Now, place bets are easy to press - you do it when you win. Come bets are harder to press, but once you figure out how to do it, it's more fun (imo). More work too, but nobody said craps was simple.
I tried come betting on my most recent trip to Vegas and found out that I have a talent for it that I didn't know existed. I started out simple with 1x odds and as I won I kept increasing the odds until I had max odds on all my numbers. I participated in a number of long hands including two that went almost back to back. The only thing I don't like about the come bet is the fact that between points if you get a 7 you have to start over again on the next roll.
I nominate myself for that "honest" category also.Quote: 7winner... All of us craps players, except probably MathExtremist and the Wizard, misstate, or lie if you will, about how much we win and how much we lose. ALWAYS, we win more than we actually do win and we lose less that we actually do lose.
I have been reporting all year that I am very much a low roller and that I have been ahead all year (up until my visit to Las Vegas last week). I don't know whether I ever reported the actual amount I was ahead or not. I do think I mentioned before my latest trip that I needed and sorta expected to lose so that I didn't have any tax obligation. ;-) When I met with the Wizard, I mentioned that I was making significant progress toward that "goal", and in case I didn't report it in my broken-up trip report sections, I was indeed "successful" in losing enough this trip to wind up in the red for the year. (Doesn't sound like something to brag about, does it?)
Anyway, here are the specifics: During 2010, I made nine trips during which I visited casinos. I played 59 sessions of craps (28 winners, 26 losers, and 5 break even) and 10 sessions of blackjack, my backup game (2 winners, 5 losers, and 3 break even). Individual sessions ranged between winning $685 and losing $400 (I play reasonably conservatively). Overall, I lost a net of $190 ($45 at craps and $145 at blackjack) for the year -- a total of less than a single buy-in amount after 69 sessions and an average of $2.75 total expense at the tables per session!
I think I definitely got far more than $190 worth of entertainment from my time in the casinos this year, and much of this $190 that I dropped cannot really be called a gambling loss. I collect souvenir $1 chips, and I added 44 new chips to my collection this year; those are included in the $190 that I bought in for but did not cash out. That cuts the actual amount I left at the tables by almost 25%. Also, it is extremely likely that my total tokes (of chips while playing, I don't track that) greatly exceeded the shortfall for the year -- I highly doubt there was a single session that I toked so little as $3, so I think the casinos actually lost money when I played. I'm in it for the fun anyway.
Anyone else care to give the honest results of their total gambling this year? We don't need any more of the BS about how someone made a fortune playing five times a week with their secret "system" at roulette or baccarat.
That's usually true, though if you're at a casino that allows put bets and 5x odds (or greater) you can keep things going by re-upping the come bets. Ask your casino whether they allow this.Quote: MartinI tried come betting on my most recent trip to Vegas and found out that I have a talent for it that I didn't know existed. I started out simple with 1x odds and as I won I kept increasing the odds until I had max odds on all my numbers. I participated in a number of long hands including two that went almost back to back. The only thing I don't like about the come bet is the fact that between points if you get a 7 you have to start over again on the next roll.
I tend to use the winner 7 that knocks down my points (but returns my odds) as a good opportunity to check where my bankroll is. If you've had any sort of hand whatsoever, you'll get back a big stack of money in odds bets. If it's a good time to stop, I'm done. There's no rule you have to keep betting on a shooter until the seven-out.
Quote: MartinTime - you have heard the saying "time is money" haven't you? During any given roll money on the rail is not earning. Therefore mathematically it's value in the game is 0. Only money on the table earns - if you have already taken or laid max odds on the line bet then your only choice is place or come betting in order to maximize your opportunity. Thus in a half hour you can make some money or lose your buy-in. If one assumes the buy-in to be the level of risk that you are willing to take then the loss of the buy-in is just the price of doing business on that particular date/time.
I know the math, I accept the risk, and in the same half hour that some might make a couple of bucks on a pass line bet I might make a couple of thousand on my come bets. Who maximized the opportunity and who did not?
Same math, same rules, just a different approach - I stand by my contention - there is no money on the pass line - it is all in the little boxes by the dealers.
Where you are confused is that the opportunity cost is that of MAKING the bet, not of waiting for the result--but in any case, pass line bets and come bets take an equal amount of time/rolls to resolve.
It is fallacious thinking to believe that come bets are somehow more likely to win than pass line bets. In reality, each type of bet has the exact same probability of winning.
Quote: mkl654321Where you are confused is that the opportunity cost is that of MAKING the bet, not of waiting for the result--but in any case, pass line bets and come bets take an equal amount of time/rolls to resolve.
It is fallacious thinking to believe that come bets are somehow more likely to win than pass line bets. In reality, each type of bet has the exact same probability of winning.
JFC! I never said that come bets are somehow more likely to win than pass line bets you stupid moron. And also please don't bother to reply - you are no one to me.
I can't believe it -- we have yet another member actually trying to get suspended.Quote: Martin... you stupid moron. ...
Quote: DocI can't believe it -- we have yet another member actually trying to get suspended.
Fortunately, Martin can support his claim with at least 10 good examples. He's safe, he's standing on solid ground.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: DocI can't believe it -- we have yet another member actually trying to get suspended.
Fortunately, Martin can support his claim with at least 10 good examples. He's safe, he's standing on solid ground.
Are you saying I'm a moron, Bob? C'mon, man up. Don't mince. Say it right out. Be proud. Get yourself suspended for the holidays :)
Quote: mkl654321Are you saying I'm a moron, Bob? C'mon, man up. Don't mince. Say it right out. Be proud. Get yourself suspended for the holidays :)
Its not for me to say, I'm simply the informed observer. The dunce hat will be won by the most deserving, my confidence lies with the judges sober and qualified decision..
Quote: MartinJFC! I never said that come bets are somehow more likely to win than pass line bets you stupid moron. And also please don't bother to reply - you are no one to me.
Five-day suspension.
Quote: EvenBobFortunately, Martin can support his claim with at least 10 good examples. He's safe, he's standing on solid ground.
Bob, I'll give you the opportunity to provide the ten examples before I decide your punishment. You may also choose to apologize or retract the statement.
Quote: WizardFive-day suspension.
Bob, I'll give you the opportunity to provide the ten examples before I decide your punishment. You may also choose to apologize or retract the statement.
I think a lot of folks are getting tired of the argumentative trolls that have taken over this board. The two main ones have BOTH been RIGHT and they have both been WRONG about a variety of things--we all pretty much are like that in our opinions and, many times, in our knowledge and understanding of life in general. The difference is that they opine at great length and personally insult people ALL the time.
It is up to ownership to either stop this or continue to allow the board to go downhill. In my opinion, it has gone downhill a great deal since these two have come on board. You either have to read how smart each of them is, how stupid they think someone else is, etc. or ignore them...and ignoring them leaves a hole in the thread because the occasionally good point they make is lost in rambling.
Martin did cross the line, but if someone makes a statement that is clearly not what was said just to show how smart they are, they are attempting to push people across the line...
Anyway, I never was a large contributor to this board but I have always enjoyed it very much. That enjoyment has been reduced a lot by the two who always seem to be arguing here.
I have to agree with you, I never have a pass-line bet, unless I have the dice in my hands, then I am paying rent on the table.
I only play place bets, and feel that there is no need for pass-line bets, and I don't care about the odds, there is no such thing as free odds, as you are paying for them with you pass-line bet!
Now here comes all the math guys, that are going to call me crazy, but the free odds were developed as a way to sell the pass-line bet, and it worked great! If you are a red chip player there is no need for the pass-line bet, and some times you come out better betting the placed bets!
$5 pass-line bet with $10 in so-called free odds on the 10 pays you, $5 pass-line bet pays even money then your $10 free odds pays true odds $20 so you just made $25, the math guys must be going nuts, man superrick can add after all!
Now dumb superrick will just place bet the 10 for the same amount of money $15,and when it hits I just made $27 if they didn't give me a free buy bet on the 10, like most of the casinos that I play at. Just think if I had the free buy bet I would have made $30! Gee this new math all these guys are talking about just doesn't add up to what I was taught in school!
I think I will stick with my place betting, and the old math I was taught. Place betting is the way to go, it only has to hit once, and you can pull your profit off the table, you do not have to stay up till the point is made, that you didn't want to begin with, or the guy that is shooting 7's out!
I don't know what we would do with out the math guys, I can't say enough good things about them, as we all need to know the math of the game, but some times it's just “please don't tell me it's a bad bet”!
7winner... I don't know what tipping has to do with anything about being a place bettors, maybe what you are seeing is from the fact that the place betters might know a little more about the game and are only tipping if they get good service!
When you are standing on the other side of the table, and it's your hard-earned money on the table, and the dealers are jerks, it's not the players duty to tip for lousy service!
Quote:In my over 30 years of dealing Dice, the loudest players when it comes to the best was of winning were the place bettors.
The largest consistent losers...the place bettors.
The worst tippers...you guessed it...the place bettors.
Not all players are the same, I tip because the dealers knew what they were doing, and treated me with respect, they also gave me good service!
...
If I am in the casino and I feel like strictly making place/come plus odds bets, that is what I do. If I feel like placing numbers I do it. I like the 4/10 bought for a quarter, but it the odds are against me at most places I play (vig up front).
I believe in knowing what is best and then playing the way that I feel like playing...it is my entertainment dollar. I want to be entertained!!
Quote: RonCI believe in knowing what is best and then playing the way that I feel like playing...it is my entertainment dollar. I want to be entertained!!
That is a very good attitude to have.
Nothing wrong with it.
But again, I have 32 years and 4 months dealing Dice full time, swing shift in Vegas Casinos. Seen all types of players come and go.
Every player that played at a Craps table I dealt at wanted to win.
Sure, entertainment was on the list but at the top was still winning.
The best part was most knew that the chances of winning were against them and they settled for the entertainment and good service I always gave, no matter how I felt at the time.
Now there were the jokers who would offer unsolicited advice on how to play Craps.
"Make place bets, that is where the money is" to a few new players asking how to play Craps.
I would shake my head and say the best bet to make right now on the come out roll is a pass line bet.
The place bettors would yell and scream, foaming at the mouth, spitting their beer all over the table that I was so wrong, never make pass line bets or even come bets, since the number has to hit twice before you win once!
I say again to all you loud mouthed place bettors, and you do know who you are...
No one wants your advice.
1) The LOUDEST players when it comes to giving advice of the best ways of winning were the place bettors.
2) The largest consistent losers...the place bettors.
3) The worst tippers...you guessed it again...the place bettors.
Why were loud place bettors the worst tippers??
Because they wanted the dealers to do everything for them right NOW," pay me NOW" they would scream, as they spit their beer all over the chips and table, they wanted to get paid on the come out roll, they lost more than others and used that as an excuse to NOT tip.
If you are not one of those type of loud place bettors, I congratulate you.
I'm sure we will hear from the one's that are!
For me, I was 99.99% a pass line only bettor.
.01% place bettor.
Quote: superrick
Not all players are the same, I tip because the dealers knew what they were doing, and treated me with respect, they also gave me good service!
...
Excellent and that is the way it should be...but in reality...
Craps winners tip more often, Craps players that lose tip very rarely.
Just because, as a dealer, we give good service, treat our players with respect and we know what we are doing, less than 33% of players tipped.
It still boiled down to did they win or did they lose.
Back in the 70s we could get away with more hustling tokes, it was done with humor and in fun, but worked to a tee.
Almost everyone toked back then. But too many dealers abused it. I miss those days. $500 tip nights!
Quote: 7winnerBut again, I have 32 years and 4 months dealing Dice full time, swing shift in Vegas Casinos. Seen all types of players come and go.
Every player that played at a Craps table I dealt at wanted to win.
Yes--I want to win. I just know that the odds are against me NO MATTER WHAT BET I make. Sometimes I win; sometimes I lose. I have about the same results each time I play--some winning "sessions" (don't want part of that whole discussion...a session as defined here is merely a period of play beginning with a buy in and ending when I color up), some losing ones, and some are even. Pretty much in line with the odds on the bets I am making...bigger swings with more risky bets...
Quote: 7winnerNow there were the jokers who would offer unsolicited advice on how to play Craps.
"Make place bets, that is where the money is" to a few new players asking how to play Craps.
I would shake my head and say the best bet to make right now on the come out roll is a pass line bet.
The place bettors would yell and scream, foaming at the mouth, spitting their beer all over the table that I was so wrong, never make pass line bets or even come bets, since the number has to hit twice before you win once!
It is amazing how bad the advice is from players and dealers at the craps table. I hear stuff every single time that makes my head spin!! I will only offer advice based on the odds of the game and tell people (that ask me; no unsolicited advice) that everyone fins their own way to play. I don't mind hearing about "how you always win" as I watch you lose; I just want an honest assessment of the odds you are playing against...
It sounds like you are one of the great dealers who makes the game enjoyable...those ALWAYS get tips from me whatever my bets are. Their service is what gets them the tip; not my risky betting patterns!! I tip early and often when the dealers help me have a great time.
Quote: superrickI never have a pass-line bet, unless I have the dice in my hands, then I am paying rent on the table.
How do place bettors avoid "paying rent"
Quote: WizardFive-day suspension.
Bob, I'll give you the opportunity to provide the ten examples before I decide your punishment. You may also choose to apologize or retract the statement.
I was speaking with sarcastic irony, I assumed Martin could provide 10 examples or he wouldn't have made a claim of such malice so cavalierly. I obviously spoke in haste and withdraw the statement, my assessment of the situation was flawed. My sincerest apologies to all involved.
Quote: SanchoPanzaHow do place bettors avoid "paying rent"
Watch out with that question.
superrick is not only a place bettor but a dice influencer to boot from his many posts here at WoV.
The very LOUD place bettors must LOVE the minimum 1.5% house edge on their place bets.
I almost forgot, they can get a little better on the Buy 4 and Buy 10.
Take that to the bank.
Quote: aceofheartsHow about some craps 101.. Put the least amount allowed on the Don' Pass/Don't Come and back it up with max odds and do that on every roll of the dice.
The challenge there is most times you need a very large bankroll when the numbers keep rolling while you are laying the full odds..
The successful aggressive don't players, the best ones, carry big wallets.
Quote: aceofheartsIf your paranoid with peer pressure about being a wrong way player then do the same on the Pass Line you wont lose much, but you'll feel good about yourself.
You won't lose much if you take no odds.
The more odds you take on the pass line the higher the volatility and the larger the bankroll swings.
Most pass line bettors do not enjoy the larger bankroll swings to the negative side. Can't blame them.
Quote: 7winnerMost pass line bettors do not enjoy the larger bankroll swings to the negative side. Can't blame them.
Instead, they stand and watch their bankroll eaten away drip by drip.
Quote: RonCIt is amazing how bad the advice is from players and dealers at the craps table. I hear stuff every single time that makes my head spin!! I will only offer advice based on the odds of the game and tell people (that ask me; no unsolicited advice) that everyone fins their own way to play. I don't mind hearing about "how you always win" as I watch you lose; I just want an honest assessment of the odds you are playing against...
Ever so true.
Actually when I dealt Dice, we were told to keep the betting advice to the pass line. It was an easy bet to make and to explain.
Now a days dealers seem to have control over what they can tell the new players. You see field bets, hardway bets, yo bets...yuck
Quote: RonCIt sounds like you are one of the great dealers who makes the game enjoyable...those ALWAYS get tips from me whatever my bets are. Their service is what gets them the tip; not my risky betting patterns!! I tip early and often when the dealers help me have a great time.
Thank you for the kind (and possibly true) words.
Craps dealers can really make the difference for the "entertainment" value, both good and bad, sad to say.
The newer generation of Craps dealers, since the 90s, do not even compare to us "old timers" as a group. But I think you can see my bias.
In my later years I would comment to other craps dealers about their poor service and they would say something like, "Shut up old man" (that part is true),
players do not tip I give no service. When the box would hear a comment like that they would just shrug their shoulders and look the other way.
Good service is a dying art sad to say.
Quote: SanchoPanzaInstead, they stand and watch their bankroll eaten away drip by drip.
Nope.
Nope.
Very few pass line bettors take full odds, 2x, 3x, whatever because it increases their chances of losing more money and most can not stomach that.
I have almost 40 year net profit from playing craps. It is only above $3000, all from pass with no odds, and I take that money with me to my grave, unless someone wants it really bad. You can read more in my blog.
In the short and long run pass line bettors run circles around the non-contract style craps player. When they win they win more and when they lose they lose less, comparing apples to apples that is. (meaning $10 action vs. $10 action)
Theoretical and empirical data verify my crazy statement.
My last craps win was at the Golden Nugget 2 months ago was a 7 winner for $10.
Quote: EvenBobI was speaking with sarcastic irony, I assumed Martin could provide 10 examples or he wouldn't have made a claim of such malice so cavalierly. I obviously spoke in haste and withdraw the statement, my assessment of the situation was flawed. My sincerest apologies to all involved.
Thank you. It came off like you were enthusiastically agreeing with the insult. Apology accepted, from me at least. No response necessary.
