richodude
richodude
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July 29th, 2022 at 5:08:09 PM permalink
The Wizard of Odds calculates the normal game of ultimate texas holdem to have a house edge of about 2% but I live near a casino where they deal the hole cards face up. I'd imagine that game has to be beatable but I wouldn't know how to calculate it. Assuming 6 players playing, what would the odds be?
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rsactuary
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July 29th, 2022 at 6:08:59 PM permalink
It wouldn't be beatable because they would change the payouts to account for the extra information.
gordonm888
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richodude
July 30th, 2022 at 9:58:20 AM permalink
According to Stephen Howe, if you use 'practical strategies' in a 6-player UTH game (with collusion, which essentially means face-up) you can reduce the House Edge from 2.2% to 1.6%. Use this link and scroll down to the discussion of collusion strategies:

collusion on ultimate texas hold'em

A bigger benefit is to your variance. You can avoid betting 4X on marginal preflop hands when your cards are copied multiple times in other player hands. This helps you to avoid the occasional big bet when you're actually at a disadvantage, reducing the frequency of large losses.
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odiousgambit
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July 30th, 2022 at 11:23:01 AM permalink
no, if at a disadvantage you bet zero

slightest advantage you bet max

I suppose you could bet 3x if the outlook is a guess
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gordonm888
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July 30th, 2022 at 1:37:58 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888


A bigger benefit is to your variance. You can avoid betting 4X on marginal preflop hands when your cards are copied multiple times in other player hands. This helps you to avoid the occasional big bet when you're actually at a disadvantage, reducing the frequency of large losses.
link to original post



I mean here if you're at a disadvantage but would not have known it without seeing the other player cards.

Extreme example: If you have A-7, but see the other three aces in the face-up cards of your fellow players, then it is revealed that your A-7 is at a disadvantage (negative EV) and you should bet zero pre-flop rather than Bet 4X. This occasionally saves you from a highly likely 5 unit loss.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
aceside
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February 4th, 2024 at 8:48:46 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Quote: gordonm888


A bigger benefit is to your variance. You can avoid betting 4X on marginal preflop hands when your cards are copied multiple times in other player hands. This helps you to avoid the occasional big bet when you're actually at a disadvantage, reducing the frequency of large losses.
link to original post



I mean here if you're at a disadvantage but would not have known it without seeing the other player cards.

Extreme example: If you have A-7, but see the other three aces in the face-up cards of your fellow players, then it is revealed that your A-7 is at a disadvantage (negative EV) and you should bet zero pre-flop rather than Bet 4X. This occasionally saves you from a highly likely 5 unit loss.
link to original post


Interesting! How do you calculate the 4x raise/check decision? This is like doing an all new calculation with a new remaining deck composition each time.
Gialmere
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February 4th, 2024 at 11:39:35 AM permalink
Quote: aceside

Quote: gordonm888

Quote: gordonm888


A bigger benefit is to your variance. You can avoid betting 4X on marginal preflop hands when your cards are copied multiple times in other player hands. This helps you to avoid the occasional big bet when you're actually at a disadvantage, reducing the frequency of large losses.
link to original post



I mean here if you're at a disadvantage but would not have known it without seeing the other player cards.

Extreme example: If you have A-7, but see the other three aces in the face-up cards of your fellow players, then it is revealed that your A-7 is at a disadvantage (negative EV) and you should bet zero pre-flop rather than Bet 4X. This occasionally saves you from a highly likely 5 unit loss.
link to original post


Interesting! How do you calculate the 4x raise/check decision? This is like doing an all new calculation with a new remaining deck composition each time.
link to original post


Yes. The math would be interesting. In the extreme example, you have an ace and the players have the other three aces. That means you can't get another ace, but it also means the dealer doesn't have an ace and therefore you have the high kicker. That seems like a strong position to bet from.

What's the correct play?
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
aceside
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February 4th, 2024 at 5:35:35 PM permalink
I haven't learned how to calculate this; however, I estimate it based on Stephen How's collusion strategy.

A player still 4x raise A,2 even if one other ace is held by other fellow players.
A player should check A,2 if two other aces are held by other fellow players.
A player should check A,3 if three other aces are held by other fellow players.
Following this trend, I predict:
A player should 4x raise A,7 even if three other aces are held by other fellow players.
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