UTH Question
no idea but I would find a casino that doesnt do the equivalent of 6:5 blackjack for UTH.Quote: DeMangoScarlet Pearl in Biloxi limits the play pteflop to 3X on their game. How much worse the expected value?
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(There are many options for casinos in Biloxi)
The first community card is exposed immediately and the initial bet is capped at 3x.
Could it have been that game?
Quote: PlayYourCardsRightThe version of UTH that was releaaed by AGS is called Jackpot Hold Em.
The first community card is exposed immediately and the initial bet is capped at 3x.
Could it have been that game?
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No this is regular UTH with a top play bet of 3X instead of 4X. I'm new to this game but it is planted in the majority of Biloxi casinos. Again how much does the short pay cost the punter??
Quote: DeMangoQuote: PlayYourCardsRightThe version of UTH that was releaaed by AGS is called Jackpot Hold Em.
The first community card is exposed immediately and the initial bet is capped at 3x.
Could it have been that game?
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No this is regular UTH with a top play bet of 3X instead of 4X. I'm new to this game but it is planted in the majority of Biloxi casinos. Again how much does the short pay cost the punter??
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Last I knew scarlet pearl has Heads up Holdem not Uth
They only allow a 3x raise. See the Wizards page on the game.
I am running the code for the house edge for UTH, with the single change that only check or 3x wagers are allowed on the first round. No 4x. This is a big program, it will take a couple of days to run. Maybe someone else can do it faster -- but I imagine some previous 4x wagers that were borderline may be "check' with 3x. From what I can tell so far in a speed test, this should be about 4 days of computer time on my I7 8 core box, running 4 threads concurrently in Cygwin.Quote: DeMangoScarlet Pearl in Biloxi limits the play pteflop to 3X on their game. How much worse the expected value?
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Quote: Hunterhill
Last I knew scarlet pearl has Heads up Holdem not Uth
They only allow a 3x raise. See the Wizards page on the game.
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If it's HUH, and I suspect Hunterhill is right, the 3x cap is the tradeoff for the fact that the Blind -- or Odds as it is called -- has a built-in bad beat feature.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/heads-up-hold-em/
So, can I stop my program from running this cycle, since it's not UTH?Quote: DeMangoLooked up this variant. 3X is offset by a bad beat bonus. So not the same game. Maybe a call to MS Gaming is in order
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Okay, I'll let the thing run. Here are the results so far (overall, I have to run 169 hands, 27 are done). The columns are "hand", "# of permutations", "check EV", "raise 3x EV" and "optimal strategy":Quote: DeMangoThanks Teliot I appreciate your work. The problem remains, UTH, the original game, with a corrupt multiplier due to error or fraud.I will not be back in MS for a month or so but if given the numbers, I can certainly call MGC and make a complaint!!
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eliot@DESKTOP-UELTN6R ~/Analysis/UltimateTexasHoldem/2.4
$ cat *.CSV
2c 3d , 12, -0.92583741, -1.99418098, Check
2c 4d , 12, -0.87256020, -1.90768752, Check
2c 5d , 12, -0.82332393, -1.80708980, Check
2c 6d , 12, -0.86136346, -1.83969175, Check
2c 7d , 12, -0.88280648, -1.80925177, Check
2c 8d , 12, -0.82006071, -1.61476743, Check
2c 9d , 12, -0.75821097, -1.42032251, Check
2c Td , 12
6c 7d , 12, -0.43092265, -1.06832555, Check
6c 8d , 12, -0.44626430, -1.00308237, Check
6c 9d , 12, -0.45003252, -0.90943089, Check
6c Td , 12, -0.41672889, -0.77366375, Check
6c Jd , 12, -0.38289485, -0.64304478, Check
6c Qd , 12, -0.24873000, -0.37347630, Check
6c Kd , 12, -0.10298991, -0.10523993, Check
6c Ad , 12
2c 9c , 4, -0.52790279, -1.06180958, Check
2c Tc , 4, -0.42984137, -0.84164428, Check
2c Jc , 4, -0.33622027, -0.62912946, Check
2c Qc , 4, -0.22043998, -0.39480744, Check
2c Kc , 4, -0.07991974, -0.13874125, Check
2c Ac , 4, 0.16651752, 0.25227696, Raise 3x
3c 4c , 4, -0.47265856, -1.28469404, Check
3c 5c , 4
6c Kc , 4, 0.11647985, 0.17633418, Raise 3x
6c Ac , 4, 0.28569931, 0.45115800, Raise 3x
7c 8c , 4, -0.05275363, -0.43341189, Check
7c 9c , 4, -0.07168506, -0.36580763, Check
7c Tc , 4, -0.05343486, -0.25767966, Check
7c Jc , 4, -0.03444511, -0.15310318, Check
7c Qc , 4
`Quote: mipletYou just have to do the hands that are normally 4x. The EV of the preflop checked hands are the same.
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Yes but how much is your loss in value if when you have the advantage, you are only allowed to bet 3X instead of 4X?
which cruse line?Quote: JoemanNot in Biloxi, but on my last cruise ship, they spread HUH. The signage on the table said UTH. However, the felt (and the game itself) was HUH. It's like they had switched from UTH to HUH, but didn't have new signs made.
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Carnival.Quote: 100xOddswhich cruse line?Quote: JoemanNot in Biloxi, but on my last cruise ship, they spread HUH. The signage on the table said UTH. However, the felt (and the game itself) was HUH. It's like they had switched from UTH to HUH, but didn't have new signs made.
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good point 👉Quote: mipletYou just have to do the hands that are normally 4x. The EV of the preflop checked hands are the same.
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2c 3d , 12, -0.92583741, -1.99418098, Check
2c 4d , 12, -0.87256020, -1.90768752, Check
2c 5d , 12, -0.82332393, -1.80708980, Check
2c 6d , 12, -0.86136346, -1.83969175, Check
2c 7d , 12, -0.88280648, -1.80925177, Check
2c 8d , 12, -0.82006071, -1.61476743, Check
2c 9d , 12, -0.75821097, -1.42032251, Check
2c Td , 12, -0.65945421, -1.18786005, Check
2c Jd , 12, -0.56721609, -0.96416781, Check
2c Qd , 12, -0.45221830, -0.71748096, Check
2c Kd , 12, -0.31129572, -0.44787693, Check
2c Ad , 12, -0.08232741, -0.05684124, Raise 3x
3c 4d , 12, -0.76005074, -1.71984370, Check
3c 5d , 12, -0.70833638, -1.61590196, Check
3c 6d , 12, -0.74515432, -1.64654647, Check
3c 7d , 12, -0.76702643, -1.61498685, Check
3c 8d , 12, -0.78490461, -1.55280423, Check
3c 9d , 12, -0.70866576, -1.33273024, Check
3c Td , 12, -0.61001548, -1.09997383, Check
3c Jd , 12, -0.51671168, -0.87628102, Check
3c Qd , 12
6c 7d , 12, -0.43092265, -1.06832555, Check
6c 8d , 12, -0.44626430, -1.00308237, Check
6c 9d , 12, -0.45003252, -0.90943089, Check
6c Td , 12, -0.41672889, -0.77366375, Check
6c Jd , 12, -0.38289485, -0.64304478, Check
6c Qd , 12, -0.24873000, -0.37347630, Check
6c Kd , 12, -0.10298991, -0.10523993, Check
6c Ad , 12, 0.07090997, 0.18611382, Raise 3x
7c 8d , 12, -0.34019657, -0.83389184, Check
7c 9d , 12, -0.34195540, -0.74014907, Check
7c Td , 12, -0.30584546, -0.60372945, Check
7c Jd , 12, -0.26982916, -0.47169036, Check
7c Qd , 12, -0.20938797, -0.31291912, Check
7c Kd , 12, -0.04943723, -0.02239274, Raise 3x
7c Ad , 12, 0.13919819, 0.28917259, Raise 3x
8c 9d , 12, -0.23611066, -0.57130401, Check
8c Td , 12, -0.19346150, -0.43338888, Check
8c Jd , 12, -0.15494399, -0.30194857, Check
8c Qd , 12, -0.09256289, -0.14142438, Check
8c Kd , 12, -0.00395367, 0.04585540, Raise 3x
8c Ad , 12
2c 9c , 4, -0.52790279, -1.06180958, Check
2c Tc , 4, -0.42984137, -0.84164428, Check
2c Jc , 4, -0.33622027, -0.62912946, Check
2c Qc , 4, -0.22043998, -0.39480744, Check
2c Kc , 4, -0.07991974, -0.13874125, Check
2c Ac , 4, 0.16651752, 0.25227696, Raise 3x
3c 4c , 4, -0.47265856, -1.28469404, Check
3c 5c , 4, -0.42365661, -1.18698950, Check
3c 6c , 4, -0.47982244, -1.23697695, Check
3c 7c , 4, -0.52087959, -1.22803123, Check
3c 8c , 4, -0.55777800, -1.19024611, Check
3c 9c , 4, -0.48250092, -0.98142661, Check
3c Tc , 4, -0.38425014, -0.76102052, Check
3c Jc , 4, -0.28909636, -0.54853984, Check
3c Qc , 4, -0.17211495, -0.31454504, Check
3c Kc , 4, -0.03019461, -0.05909912, Check
3c Ac , 4, 0.22137183, 0.33230744, Raise 3x
4c 5c , 4, -0.29898383, -0.99531042, Check
4c 6c , 4, -0.35184873, -1.04125376, Check
4c 7c , 4, -0.39210407, -1.03111769, Check
4c 8c , 4
6c Kc , 4, 0.11647985, 0.17633418, Raise 3x
6c Ac , 4, 0.28569931, 0.45115800, Raise 3x
7c 8c , 4, -0.05275363, -0.43341189, Check
7c 9c , 4, -0.07168506, -0.36580763, Check
7c Tc , 4, -0.05343486, -0.25767966, Check
7c Jc , 4, -0.03444511, -0.15310318, Check
7c Qc , 4, 0.00784986, -0.02326958, Check
7c Kc , 4, 0.16717183, 0.25314403, Raise 3x
7c Ac , 4, 0.35195099, 0.54775176, Raise 3x
8c 9c , 4, 0.05106879, -0.18649067, Check
8c Tc , 4, 0.07541122, -0.07695477, Check
8c Jc , 4, 0.09631779, 0.02707314, Check
8c Qc , 4, 0.14019927, 0.15857686, Raise 3x
8c Kc , 4, 0.20908557, 0.31536410, Raise 3x
8c Ac , 4, 0.40961911, 0.63001398, Raise 3x
9c Tc , 4, 0.20548472, 0.10461849, Check
9c Jc , 4, 0.22819617, 0.20458743, Check
9c Qc , 4, 0.27409331, 0.33591224, Raise 3x
9c Kc , 4, 0.34475051, 0.49480112, Raise 3x
9c Ac , 4, 0.45823992
Good work Eliot. I'm guessing it's not quite as easy as looking for >50% situations as it's similar to doubling in BJ. As a simple example, if you could only add a 50% bet when "doubling" then you wouldn't double 10 vs 9 ( https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/expected-return-infinite-deck/ ): Hit 0.116530 Dbl: 0.144328/2*1.5 = 0.108246.Quote: DeMango...It's like Blackjack, only being allowed to double down on 11, definitely more profit for the house.
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Perhaps off topic, but sometimes there are unexpected side-effects of rule changes. For instance I've been looking at Blackjack where you could only double 10 and 11, you wouldn't actually split 4s vs 5 (although the cost of ignoring this exception this is very low)!
Quote: CommishI have played at Scarlet Pearl and it is not Ultimate. It is indeed HUH with a bonus payout on the blind for a bad beat.
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HUH or whatever has an entirely different layout. No pocket bonus bet.
Quote: DeMangoQuote: CommishI have played at Scarlet Pearl and it is not Ultimate. It is indeed HUH with a bonus payout on the blind for a bad beat.
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HUH or whatever has an entirely different layout. No pocket bonus bet.
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Are you saying that HUH does not have a pocket bonus bet? Because that is patently untrue. I deal HUH, and it has that bet.
If you're saying that the game at Scarlett Pearl does not have pocket bonus, it's possible for HUH to be offered without it, though I have never seen it done.
Quote: DeMangoIt would be helpful to visit the WoO site check up our the rules what they should be. Yes HUH has the pocket bonus bet but not the bad beat sidebar that someone mentioned. Pictures of layouts do not reveal a bad beat ssidebet on either HUH or UTH. that should clear up everything exceptthet original question. now if someone can PM me the address of Roger Sno, the inventor, we can get to the source!
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Some casinos do have a bad beat bet on UTH. I don't know about HUH.
Quote:HUH has the pocket bonus bet but not the bad beat sidebar that someone mentioned
The bad beat on HUH is not a sidebet, the payouts are part of the Blind bet. Another poster who plays at this casino says that the game in question is HUH so perhaps you should go back and double check before you contact gaming commissions, inventors, or any additional podcasts.
Identical layouts with one casino ;limiting odds to 3x, no bad beat side bet on the layout. Amazing how many here find this casino incababls of making a mistake,Quote: WigginsQuote:HUH has the pocket bonus bet but not the bad beat sidebar that someone mentioned
The bad beat on HUH is not a sidebet, the payouts are part of the Blind bet. Another poster who plays at this casino says that the game in question is HUH so perhaps you should go back and double check before you contact gaming commissions, inventors, or any additional podcasts.
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sneaking a pic wither be helpfulQuote: DeMangoIdentical layouts with one casino ;limiting odds to 3x, no bad beat side bet on the layout. Amazing how many here find this casino incababls of making a mistake,Quote: WigginsQuote:HUH has the pocket bonus bet but not the bad beat sidebar that someone mentioned
The bad beat on HUH is not a sidebet, the payouts are part of the Blind bet. Another poster who plays at this casino says that the game in question is HUH so perhaps you should go back and double check before you contact gaming commissions, inventors, or any additional podcasts.
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I did play at Harrah's and noticed they have the 9-7-4 paytable on trips. That's a 0.9% house edge. IP I believe has 8-6-5 which is also pretty good.
Most casinos hand dealt UTH from a deck (with an automatic shuffler sometimes, but not with the machine that spits out little packets of cards).
Harrahs on the Vegas strip has the 9-7-4 trips paytable?Quote: teddysI was just in 'lox and didn't make it to SP. Otherwise I would have checked.
I did play at Harrah's and noticed they have the 9-7-4 paytable on trips. That's a 0.9% house edge. IP I believe has 8-6-5 which is also pretty good.
Most casinos hand dealt UTH from a deck (with an automatic shuffler sometimes, but not with the machine that spits out little packets of cards).
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if so and since there's no more good vp for any caesars in vegas, i would sit at harrahs and play uth all day with the Trips bet.
(if i ever go back to vegas again)
Quote:Harrahs on the Vegas strip has the 9-7-4 trips paytable?
He's talking about Biloxi casinos.
Quote: teddysI did play at Harrah's and noticed they have the 9-7-4 paytable on trips.
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Sweet! I only know this mythical payable exists because of the WOO site.
Ocean and Golden Nugget in AC has this Trips pay table, at least right before CovidQuote: ThisIsMyJamQuote: teddysI did play at Harrah's and noticed they have the 9-7-4 paytable on trips.
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Sweet! I only know this mythical payable exists because of the WOO site.
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Quote: DeMango`Quote: mipletYou just have to do the hands that are normally 4x. The EV of the preflop checked hands are the same.
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Yes but how much is your loss in value if when you have the advantage, you are only allowed to bet 3X instead of 4X?
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That's easy. Just go to the WoO page and multiply each 4x win (return) by 0.75, then sum up all of the differences and that is the loss to EV. After that, just work it into the HE and EoR.
ADDED: Or multiply them by 0.25 and just sum that up, saves the subtracting step.
Quote: DeMangopracticing on free UTH game on WoO. site. Got a RF!! odds about 30000-1 no?
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Closer to 31k, but yes. It's the same probability as getting one in seven stud would be.
Quote: JimRockfordMaybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Don’t get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY don’t like that you can’t check your hole cards after the flop. I don’t see why I can’t confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
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What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
Quote: ThisIsMyJamQuote: JimRockfordMaybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Don’t get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY don’t like that you can’t check your hole cards after the flop. I don’t see why I can’t confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
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What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
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I haven’t played in years, but that was the rule at the Mirage the last time I played. Is that not standard?
Quote: ThisIsMyJamQuote: JimRockfordMaybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Don’t get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY don’t like that you can’t check your hole cards after the flop. I don’t see why I can’t confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
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What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
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I’ve never had that issue. I always recheck.
I can't speak to the procedures at the Mirage specifically, but at the other casinos I have played UTH, I have never been told I can't look at my cards at any point before I make my Play wager (or fold). I will typically hold my cards (usually on edge so that the faces are visible to me) from the time they are pushed to me until I make a Play wager or fold.Quote: JimRockfordQuote: ThisIsMyJamQuote: JimRockfordMaybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Don’t get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY don’t like that you can’t check your hole cards after the flop. I don’t see why I can’t confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
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What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
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I haven’t played in years, but that was the rule at the Mirage the last time I played. Is that not standard?
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Now, after you put out the Play wager, yeah they don't want you touching the cards.
Quote: teliotOkay -- I'm shutting down the code (for now). Just too much to let it keep running. I used to have a second super fast Ubuntu computer that I dedicated to these things, but with only my main computer running it just is so slow. Here are the results so far, you can see that there are some changes to the 4x strategy. For example, checking Q6s, Q7s and Q8o. The first raise with a Queen is Q8s.
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This part is consistent with Wizard’s basic strategy:
For UTH, 4x bet these hands: Q6s, Q7s and Q8o;
For HUH, 3x bet these hands: Q8s, Q9s, and Q10o.
However, if you use the HUH rules (which include a bad beat rule) for this calculation, will the 3x bet hands still be the same?
Can I get at least two people to say this is pure UTH with only the 4x lowered to 3x on the pre-flop raise?
I am absolutely 99.996% sure the table was labeled as UTH because I would have had no problem being restricted to 3x if it had actually been HUN.
Believe they also have HUH on a separate table don’t recall but this was certainly not a HUH table or Texas Holdem Bonus. Dealer/supervisor said they’d changed the rule several months prior, so that timeline would likely make it near a year at this point. Note that the dealer/supervisor mentioned it had been CHANGED, so again not HUH.
Quote: mcallister3200I can back up DeMango that SP deals or dealt a game labeled as UTH (no bad beat bonus) with no 4x option.
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Thank you. With that confirmation, I updated my UTH program to have a 3x pre-flop raise.
To re-run every hand would take about five days to cycle through. However, thanks to Miplet's observation, I need to only run those hands that already a big raise. Currently I'm working on the 33 to AA pairs. I'll keep you posted.
For now, in digging around for my material on UTH, I find I at least analyzed the situation where the player plays the optimal 4x raise strategy, but on a 3x game. There the house edge (based on the Ante only) is 9.86% and the Element of Risk is 2.61%. So, this looks to be a very bad rule. Of course, strategy changes will bring down those numbers, but I still expect it to increase the house edge to about 5%.
