Defense of Silence
Poll
 | 1 vote (3.22%) | ||
| | 14 votes (45.16%) | ||
| | 1 vote (3.22%) | ||
| | 15 votes (48.38%) | ||
| | 6 votes (19.35%) | ||
| | 9 votes (29.03%) |
31 members have voted
July 12th, 2021 at 2:07:51 PM
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Here's a topic for discussion:
PREMISE:
1.) Many casinos offer Table Games for which the House Edge is predicated upon optimal play. These include common games such as Blackjack, Three-Card Poker, Mississippi Stud, Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em and several others.
2.) Most players do not play optimally.
3.) Because of mistakes that the players make, casinos enjoy an unquantifiable, but greater, house edge...or, stated another way, casinos have a greater expected win than their house edge would indicate that they should.
4.) Players do not always notice when the dealer has treated their winning hand as if it has lost.
5.) Players are not always aware of how much they should be paid out, at least, as relates certain games.
6.) Therefore, unless a casino is simultaneously the most honest AND attentive casino in the world, while it is the dealer's JOB to play players correctly, the player also bears some degree of responsibility (fair or not) to make sure that happens.
7.) Games can also be dealt in a way that is sub-optimal. Suboptimal dealing would include paying players when they have lost, paying players more than they should have been paid or paying off aspects of bets (such as the ante in UTH) when those should not have been paid.
CONCLUSION:
BECAUSE players must play optimally in order to get the lowest House Edge possible on a game, and additionally, should also be mindful of making sure that they are paid when they win, and are paid the correct amounts, dealers of the game (who are in control) should have those same responsibilities on the casino's end.
It is for that reason I maintain that players should not only feel no responsibility to correct dealer mispays, but in fact, should not ever correct dealer mispays that benefit themselves or any other player. If a player must look out for himself/herself without any supervision or surveillance equipment to the player's benefit, then why should the casino not be expected to do the same in order to ensure their house edge?
Discuss. Also, the poll above asks, "Would you correct a dealer mistake?" You may vote for multiple options, but please only vote for one of the top four.
PREMISE:
1.) Many casinos offer Table Games for which the House Edge is predicated upon optimal play. These include common games such as Blackjack, Three-Card Poker, Mississippi Stud, Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em and several others.
2.) Most players do not play optimally.
3.) Because of mistakes that the players make, casinos enjoy an unquantifiable, but greater, house edge...or, stated another way, casinos have a greater expected win than their house edge would indicate that they should.
4.) Players do not always notice when the dealer has treated their winning hand as if it has lost.
5.) Players are not always aware of how much they should be paid out, at least, as relates certain games.
6.) Therefore, unless a casino is simultaneously the most honest AND attentive casino in the world, while it is the dealer's JOB to play players correctly, the player also bears some degree of responsibility (fair or not) to make sure that happens.
7.) Games can also be dealt in a way that is sub-optimal. Suboptimal dealing would include paying players when they have lost, paying players more than they should have been paid or paying off aspects of bets (such as the ante in UTH) when those should not have been paid.
CONCLUSION:
BECAUSE players must play optimally in order to get the lowest House Edge possible on a game, and additionally, should also be mindful of making sure that they are paid when they win, and are paid the correct amounts, dealers of the game (who are in control) should have those same responsibilities on the casino's end.
It is for that reason I maintain that players should not only feel no responsibility to correct dealer mispays, but in fact, should not ever correct dealer mispays that benefit themselves or any other player. If a player must look out for himself/herself without any supervision or surveillance equipment to the player's benefit, then why should the casino not be expected to do the same in order to ensure their house edge?
Discuss. Also, the poll above asks, "Would you correct a dealer mistake?" You may vote for multiple options, but please only vote for one of the top four.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 12th, 2021 at 2:21:47 PM
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Im.no saint. My hindparts hits the leather seat for one reason. And that's to play blackjack to the best of my ability.
On average, I get in 1200 hands in a week. How mamy hands do you suppose the dealers deals in a week? It's their job to not make or catch their own mistakes. No? It's my job to protect my financial interests. Sometimes that requires pointing out a mistake that turns my losing hand into a winner. But it's very rare. Generally speaking, the higher the stakes the less dealer mistakes.
On average, I get in 1200 hands in a week. How mamy hands do you suppose the dealers deals in a week? It's their job to not make or catch their own mistakes. No? It's my job to protect my financial interests. Sometimes that requires pointing out a mistake that turns my losing hand into a winner. But it's very rare. Generally speaking, the higher the stakes the less dealer mistakes.
July 12th, 2021 at 2:36:52 PM
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Quote: mosesIm.no saint. My hindparts hits the leather seat for one reason. And that's to play blackjack to the best of my ability.
On average, I get in 1200 hands in a week. How mamy hands do you suppose the dealers deals in a week? It's their job to not make or catch their own mistakes. No? It's my job to protect my financial interests. Sometimes that requires pointing out a mistake that turns my losing hand into a winner. But it's very rare. Generally speaking, the higher the stakes the less dealer mistakes.
I remember being at a hospital, on one occasion, and getting something to eat from the cafeteria. When paying, I noticed that the cashier had an ID clipped to her shirt with her picture and the word, Volunteer.
I thought, "Has this lady never seen an emergency room bill? Why in the hell would anyone ever volunteer at a hospital?"
Do people volunteer in the cafeterias at headquarters of major banking corporations?
I'm not saying that the notion of volunteering is bad. I'm also not saying that the notion of financial honesty is bad.
I am saying that's it's silly to do free labor for rich entities and it's silly to look out for business locations in a manner over and above how they are looking out for you.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 12th, 2021 at 2:46:27 PM
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I was paid 3:2 for a table limit blackjack on a King Queen where the dealer hit to 21 and I lost. I had thrown down the two cards happily and the dealer had glanced at it and his mind must have registered "A snapper. Blackjack." He was fully aware that he hit to 21 because someone else at the table had a multi card 21 too, and the dealer double thumped the table in front of him and paid him nothing ("A push").
I said nothing, kept playing at that table, and no one ever came back and said a word. This was back before my decade or so hiatus, and no doubt surveillance was not watching that table I was playing at (it was not in the high limit area, but the bet was to the limit for that casino, and it was not just a thousand dollar blackjack it was to the limit), or was not watching it closely.
I'd have to say that any other time a dealer has made a mistake that I observed I have corrected him immediately, but such mistakes were for average a couple or few hundred dollar hands. It did not even occur to me to correct the dealer for that massive error on the losing twenty "blackjack" payout.
I have mentioned that blackjack on a losing hand payout to various people over the years, including professional card counters, and the responses have ranged from "Atta boy!" to, you didn't deserve that payout and should have paid it back. One person went so far as to say that I had disrupted the proper flow of money at the table by taking what wasn't mine. 🥴
There was one time early last year I think it was that I was paid in full at Baccarat for a three card 6 at a commissionless table (should have been paid half), and I might have been vaguely aware that I was overpaid. In any case, a little while later a suit came out of nowhere, and told me that I had been overpaid, and I coughed up the hundred fifty or whatever it was that I owed on that small hand.
I said nothing, kept playing at that table, and no one ever came back and said a word. This was back before my decade or so hiatus, and no doubt surveillance was not watching that table I was playing at (it was not in the high limit area, but the bet was to the limit for that casino, and it was not just a thousand dollar blackjack it was to the limit), or was not watching it closely.
I'd have to say that any other time a dealer has made a mistake that I observed I have corrected him immediately, but such mistakes were for average a couple or few hundred dollar hands. It did not even occur to me to correct the dealer for that massive error on the losing twenty "blackjack" payout.
I have mentioned that blackjack on a losing hand payout to various people over the years, including professional card counters, and the responses have ranged from "Atta boy!" to, you didn't deserve that payout and should have paid it back. One person went so far as to say that I had disrupted the proper flow of money at the table by taking what wasn't mine. 🥴
There was one time early last year I think it was that I was paid in full at Baccarat for a three card 6 at a commissionless table (should have been paid half), and I might have been vaguely aware that I was overpaid. In any case, a little while later a suit came out of nowhere, and told me that I had been overpaid, and I coughed up the hundred fifty or whatever it was that I owed on that small hand.
I tell you its wonderful to be here, man. I dont give a damn who wins or loses. Its just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
July 12th, 2021 at 2:55:29 PM
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Dealer was clearly suffering from HIA syndtome.😉Quote: MDawgI was paid 3:2 for a blackjack on a King Queen where the dealer hit to 21 and I lost. I had thrown down the two cards happily and the dealer had glanced at it and his mind must have registered "A snapper. Blackjack." He was fully aware that he hit to 21 because someone else at the table had a multi card 21 too, and the dealer double thumped the table in front of him and paid him nothing ("A push").
I said nothing, kept playing at that table, and no one ever came back and said a word. This was back before my decade or so hiatus, and no doubt surveillance was not watching that table I was playing at (it was not in the high limit area, but the bet was to the limit for that casino, and it was not just a thousand dollar blackjack it was to the limit), or was not watching it closely.
I'd have to say that any other time a dealer has made a mistake that I observed I have corrected him immediately, but such mistakes were for average a couple or few hundred dollar hands. It did not even occur to me to correct the dealer for that massive error on the losing twenty "blackjack" payout.
July 12th, 2021 at 2:57:10 PM
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My friends and I refer to that particular incident as the "Power of the Force over Weak Minds."
I tell you its wonderful to be here, man. I dont give a damn who wins or loses. Its just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
July 12th, 2021 at 3:00:41 PM
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Quote: MDawgMy friends and I refer to that particular incident as the "Power of the Force over Weak Minds."
**it happens.
July 12th, 2021 at 3:09:01 PM
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Quote: Mission146
It is for that reason I maintain that players should not only feel no responsibility to correct dealer mispays, but in fact, should not ever correct dealer mispays that benefit themselves or any other player.
It is a jerk move to correct an overpay that doesn't affect you.
If you're not comfortable with people getting overpaid for whatever reason, find a different table.
It's always ok to question a short pay - taking a push, pushing a pay, etc. Your hand, another player's hand.
There are times when questioning your own overpay makes sense, but they're rare. It's ok to preemptively correct an overpay in your favor. It's also OK to let them hand you money.
May the cards fall in your favor.
July 12th, 2021 at 3:14:45 PM
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On the flip side of silence is the need to open your mouth sometimes. This player I've been letting play at my reserved table (or had been letting, I cut the player off from my table because I got tired of the player's loss chasing bets) had placed 20K on Player, and I had a few thousand on the Player too. Player started with a 4, Bank 6. Player drew a 7, which cut Player down to 1.
For all intensive purposes the wager is lost, and the dealer started grabbing for our chips to place them back into the tray when I had to remind her - Wait! but there's a draw.
She actually drew a two sided card, a 4, and cut the Bank to 0 and we won. Almost never happens that way, but that day, it did.
In that instance, there is no way the pit boss would have allowed the mistake, but if I hadn't said anything it would have been a bit of a mess with all our chips back in the tray and camera recall required to restore the bets before the mandatory sixth card was drawn.
In Baccarat that Bank draws against 6, when player draws a 6 or 7 is an oft forgotten rule.
For all intensive purposes the wager is lost, and the dealer started grabbing for our chips to place them back into the tray when I had to remind her - Wait! but there's a draw.
She actually drew a two sided card, a 4, and cut the Bank to 0 and we won. Almost never happens that way, but that day, it did.
In that instance, there is no way the pit boss would have allowed the mistake, but if I hadn't said anything it would have been a bit of a mess with all our chips back in the tray and camera recall required to restore the bets before the mandatory sixth card was drawn.
In Baccarat that Bank draws against 6, when player draws a 6 or 7 is an oft forgotten rule.
I tell you its wonderful to be here, man. I dont give a damn who wins or loses. Its just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
July 12th, 2021 at 3:24:05 PM
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I tend to agree with your conclusion, you should correct (or not correct) mistakes when the correction benefits you or another player. The House only cares about themselves and go out of their way to make mistake work in their favor or do not get noticed, so there is no need to further help them (maybe that is an unfair generalization, I am sure there are some casinos that are exceptions).
The one possible exception is if something shady is going on (like a dealer seems to be intentionally making mistakes on just one player in a way that there could be something illegal going on....) But, even then there would need to be overwhelming evidence (like beyond blatant), and dealers would probably be rotated before I am convinced (and I likely will never see the same player/dealer combo again). So yeah, I probably would not report such a thing on mere suspicious because you open up a dealer to losing their job and some player to possible unfair scrutiny, there would have to be solid evidence (like you hear them planning it, and then see it, etc.... But if its that obvious and the House does not catch it, maybe they deserve to get away with it....). This is a pretty far-fetched scenario/exception, but I guess its possible....
So I guess my summary is, only report (or don't report) when it benefits the players unless there is something clearly (and overwhelmingly) illegal happening (some kind of cheating or colluding).
The one possible exception is if something shady is going on (like a dealer seems to be intentionally making mistakes on just one player in a way that there could be something illegal going on....) But, even then there would need to be overwhelming evidence (like beyond blatant), and dealers would probably be rotated before I am convinced (and I likely will never see the same player/dealer combo again). So yeah, I probably would not report such a thing on mere suspicious because you open up a dealer to losing their job and some player to possible unfair scrutiny, there would have to be solid evidence (like you hear them planning it, and then see it, etc.... But if its that obvious and the House does not catch it, maybe they deserve to get away with it....). This is a pretty far-fetched scenario/exception, but I guess its possible....
So I guess my summary is, only report (or don't report) when it benefits the players unless there is something clearly (and overwhelmingly) illegal happening (some kind of cheating or colluding).
July 12th, 2021 at 3:46:47 PM
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Not so fast my friend. Awhile back I doubled down on 11vs10 for a 20 with a max bet out. Something was wrong with the light that checks for an Ace in the hole with a 10 up. Turns out dealer has Ace so she started to take both my bets.
I tried to explain there wouldnt have been a double down decision to make had the red light been working. Therefore, she couldnt take both my bets. Only 1. Anyway, we called the pit boss over and I won my case.
But if I were to intervene for another player? Id certainly be labeled as a horses behind (who slowed the game)and it's unlikely that player would know enough to appreciate the good deed done for them.
Plus why is a counter adding up other players hands? Run in your own lane.
I tried to explain there wouldnt have been a double down decision to make had the red light been working. Therefore, she couldnt take both my bets. Only 1. Anyway, we called the pit boss over and I won my case.
But if I were to intervene for another player? Id certainly be labeled as a horses behind (who slowed the game)and it's unlikely that player would know enough to appreciate the good deed done for them.
Plus why is a counter adding up other players hands? Run in your own lane.
July 12th, 2021 at 4:31:49 PM
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I don't hawk the table looking for mistakes but if I notice a dealer mistake at another player's expense I will usually point it out. Unless I really like a dealer, I rarely point out a dealer overpayment to me and never to another player. Assuming the said player isn't smoking a cigar, has bathed in recent memory, and isn't being a dick.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
July 12th, 2021 at 4:55:26 PM
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Quote: MDawgOn the flip side of silence is the need to open your mouth sometimes. This player I've been letting play at my reserved table (or had been letting, I cut the player off from my table because I got tired of the player's loss chasing bets) had placed 20K on Player, and I had a few thousand on the Player too. Player started with a 4, Bank 6. Player drew a 7, which cut Player down to 1.
For all intensive purposes the wager is lost, and the dealer started grabbing for our chips to place them back into the tray when I had to remind her - Wait! but there's a draw.
She actually drew a two sided card, a 4, and cut the Bank to 0 and we won. Almost never happens that way, but that day, it did.
In that instance, there is no way the pit boss would have allowed the mistake, but if I hadn't said anything it would have been a bit of a mess with all our chips back in the tray and camera recall required to restore the bets before the mandatory sixth card was drawn.
In Baccarat that Bank draws against 6, when player draws a 6 or 7 is an oft forgotten rule.
Yes you are correct and that situation receives phone calls in our camera surveillance room very often. There are certain dealers that are very quick to swipe the chips off the table layout and usually a player will say, "hey wait a minute" and call the pit boss over pointing out the fact the Bankers had a 6 and the Players 3rd card was a 6 or 7. Then everything has to be set back up.
Of course if everyone is on the Players side when the mistake(s) happen and everyone gets paid, no one usually says anything.
I will point out, on rare occasion it is caught by us, then we call the pit boss and a decision is made whether to recall the losing bets, which a casino can do (and piss players off) or not. I have seen it done. But usually the decision is made NOT to recall the original wagers.
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
Professional Casino Security Expert
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Marcus Clark. Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66. *Professional Casino Security Expert.
*Certified EMT
*Certified Company Firearms Instructor.
*Certified Gaming Regulations Interpreter for Corporate Applications.
*Domestic UrbanTactical Combat Casualty Expert.
*Tic-Tac-Toe Expert (Real Competitive Versions) & Mastering Chess.
*Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club.
*Mastering Cracking it. Bit-by-Bit, Piece-by-Piece Crediting Forum Members.
*Certified Casino Property Entry & Exit Point Analyzer
*Baccarat Winning Session Record: 12 out of 12 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session. Baccarat Losing Session Record: 2 Losing Sessions.
July 12th, 2021 at 5:02:09 PM
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Quote: billryanI don't hawk the table looking for mistakes but if I notice a dealer mistake at another player's expense I will usually point it out. Unless I really like a dealer, I rarely point out a dealer overpayment to me and never to another player. Assuming the said player isn't smoking a cigar, has bathed in recent memory, and isn't being a dick.
I was the only player at a Spanish 21 table until a loud guy jumped in for one hand with a $500 bet. The dealer got an ace up, and he got blackjack and screamed "even money, even money!" She gave it to him.
July 12th, 2021 at 5:09:55 PM
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😅 Great story. 👍Quote: ChesterDogI was the only player at a Spanish 21 table until a loud guy jumped in for one hand with a $500 bet. The dealer got an ace up, and he got blackjack and screamed "even money, even money!" She gave it to him.
July 12th, 2021 at 5:43:32 PM
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I think it is dishonest to accept an overpay. It is on the player if he plays badly and he needs to police his own hand to ensure he isn't underpaid.
However, I won't correct an overpayment to another player. Will I correct an underpayment to another player? I probably would, unless I thought the player was a jerk.
If there is one thing I care more about than good gambling, it's honest gambling.
However, I won't correct an overpayment to another player. Will I correct an underpayment to another player? I probably would, unless I thought the player was a jerk.
If there is one thing I care more about than good gambling, it's honest gambling.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 12th, 2021 at 5:49:58 PM
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Just the other night I had a green chip on Come, shooter rolled a 3, and the dealer paid me instead of taking my chip. Im guessing the dealer thought I was betting the field
Its all about making that GTA
July 12th, 2021 at 6:07:07 PM
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I'm with Wiz on this one.
If I give the McDonald's cashier a $10 bill to pay for my meal, and she gives me back change for a $20, I will point out her mistake and give her the $10 back. Not only is it the honest thing to do, but I wouldn't want the cashier to be in trouble when her tray is short $10 at the end of the day, just for making a good faith mistake.
I view casinos the same way regarding overpays. If the dealer makes a mistake in my favor, I'll usually point it out. It's not only the honest thing to do, it will probably save the dealer some grief down the road.
My question for those who keep their silence when they are overpaid, would you do the same at McDonalds? At the local Mom & Pop coffee shop? At a diner owned by a close friend?
My question for Wizard is: Let's say you are playing BJ and the dealer draws to 21, but mistakes it for 22. Thinking she has busted, she pays everyone at the table. Would you still speak up knowing that it would affect everyone else at the table?
If I give the McDonald's cashier a $10 bill to pay for my meal, and she gives me back change for a $20, I will point out her mistake and give her the $10 back. Not only is it the honest thing to do, but I wouldn't want the cashier to be in trouble when her tray is short $10 at the end of the day, just for making a good faith mistake.
I view casinos the same way regarding overpays. If the dealer makes a mistake in my favor, I'll usually point it out. It's not only the honest thing to do, it will probably save the dealer some grief down the road.
My question for those who keep their silence when they are overpaid, would you do the same at McDonalds? At the local Mom & Pop coffee shop? At a diner owned by a close friend?
My question for Wizard is: Let's say you are playing BJ and the dealer draws to 21, but mistakes it for 22. Thinking she has busted, she pays everyone at the table. Would you still speak up knowing that it would affect everyone else at the table?
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
July 12th, 2021 at 6:08:32 PM
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Quote: WizardI think it is dishonest to accept an overpay. It is on the player if he plays badly and he needs to police his own hand to ensure he isn't underpaid.
However, I won't correct an overpayment to another player. Will I correct an underpayment to another player? I probably would, unless I thought the player was a jerk.
If there is one thing I care more about than good gambling, it's honest gambling.
Under the same standard, isnt it on the casino if the dealer, Plays badly, or deals badly?
I look at the casino situation as different than someone performing an equivalent act in a home/social game.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 12th, 2021 at 6:26:11 PM
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Quote: JoemanI'm with Wiz on this one.
If I give the McDonald's cashier a $10 bill to pay for my meal, and she gives me back change for a $20, I will point out her mistake and give her the $10 back. Not only is it the honest thing to do, but I wouldn't want the cashier to be in trouble when her tray is short $10 at the end of the day, just for making a good faith mistake.
I view casinos the same way regarding overpays. If the dealer makes a mistake in my favor, I'll usually point it out. It's not only the honest thing to do, it will probably save the dealer some grief down the road.
My question for those who keep their silence when they are overpaid, would you do the same at McDonalds? At the local Mom & Pop coffee shop? At a diner owned by a close friend?
My question for Wizard is: Let's say you are playing BJ and the dealer draws to 21, but mistakes it for 22. Thinking she has busted, she pays everyone at the table. Would you still speak up knowing that it would affect everyone else at the table?
Thats true, but I look at the cashier thing as being a little bit different. For one thing, a drawer error will almost always be caught when counting down the till, so the cashiers mistake has a much lower probability of going unnoticed by the employer. Secondly, at least in theory, the cashier isnt offering a product with a variable value depending on the person, Customering optimally, which is to say you cant make a mistake ordering a large #2 combo that would cause you to pay more than menu price.
Ill allow that Im perhaps taking an overly adversarial view on the casino/player relationship. On the other hand, the casinos have every advantage working for them and I just have my eyes, my mental math and my vigilance. Many players dont have as much in those regards as I do, so probably have suffered mispays that have worked against them.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 12th, 2021 at 6:45:02 PM
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Mission, if the cashier at the casino cage overpaid you when cashing out chips or a TITO, would you correct it?
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
July 12th, 2021 at 6:47:59 PM
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Quote: unJonMission, if the cashier at the casino cage overpaid you when cashing out chips or a TITO, would you correct it?
Definitely.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 12th, 2021 at 6:50:08 PM
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Oh, I see.
Thats not a game though. Thats having whatever amount in chips, so you should get that in cash.
My opinion is along the lines of, if players are expected to play perfectly to get optimal return, the dealers not playing/paying perfectly is also, Fair game.
Thats not a game though. Thats having whatever amount in chips, so you should get that in cash.
My opinion is along the lines of, if players are expected to play perfectly to get optimal return, the dealers not playing/paying perfectly is also, Fair game.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 12th, 2021 at 6:55:12 PM
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Also, Maximum Aggregate Payouts.
So, casinos will take bets that could conceivably result in a player not being paid in full according to the paytable. A player would first have to understand what the heck a MAP even is, then second, have the mental math ability to determine the most they could bet and get paid in full.
Does the casino post a sign or tell a player when the player risks not getting paid in full due to betting too much? Hell no!
Again, if the casino has every power over this transaction, then why is it for me to make sure the dealer is doing his or her job correctly?
So, casinos will take bets that could conceivably result in a player not being paid in full according to the paytable. A player would first have to understand what the heck a MAP even is, then second, have the mental math ability to determine the most they could bet and get paid in full.
Does the casino post a sign or tell a player when the player risks not getting paid in full due to betting too much? Hell no!
Again, if the casino has every power over this transaction, then why is it for me to make sure the dealer is doing his or her job correctly?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 12th, 2021 at 7:16:20 PM
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Honesty? May well be a matter of perception. Some dealers and pit personnell view card counting almost as a criminal act. While card counters contend it is perfectly legal to use your mind and ability to compete.
I've played more single decks hands in the last decade than anyone. There are very few mishaps, short or over pays. A few "check agains" on the final tally of cards dealt. When it does happen? It usually amounts to a whups and a chuckle.
As some say, "there are others at table"? Not with me. But in a casino you never know what someone else is thinking. For one thing, there is a ton of alchohol being consumed. Maybe the guy just lost a big sports bet and is trying to make it back at the table. Um, excuse me Mr. Dealer, but you just overpaid him by $250.
Ever catch a drunk guy to break his fall only to have him take a swing at you?
The casino is not my circus and the players are not my monkees.
I've played more single decks hands in the last decade than anyone. There are very few mishaps, short or over pays. A few "check agains" on the final tally of cards dealt. When it does happen? It usually amounts to a whups and a chuckle.
As some say, "there are others at table"? Not with me. But in a casino you never know what someone else is thinking. For one thing, there is a ton of alchohol being consumed. Maybe the guy just lost a big sports bet and is trying to make it back at the table. Um, excuse me Mr. Dealer, but you just overpaid him by $250.
Ever catch a drunk guy to break his fall only to have him take a swing at you?
The casino is not my circus and the players are not my monkees.
July 12th, 2021 at 7:27:51 PM
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Generally speaking, you usually have to check out the Carnival Games to occasionally find habitual mispays. Its even more likely when its a new game to the casino.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 12th, 2021 at 11:01:57 PM
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Hate to say it, but if a dealer overpays someone else or myself (or a win when it should lose), I say NOTHING and I can guarantee if the dealer attempts to underpay (or count a win as a loss for the player), I will ALWAYS say something. I suppose karma will eventually get me, but I feel, like has been mentioned, the dealer on average will make multiple mistakes an hour and generally for the house since players usually catch their own. So if they make a mistake, I dont think the cameras will catch it since they arent paying that close attention to the individual components of the game at the time. Now, on a big payout, you might as well say something since the cameras WILL review that issue.
July 12th, 2021 at 11:46:30 PM
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Quote: Mission146Oh, I see.
Thats not a game though. Thats having whatever amount in chips, so you should get that in cash.
My opinion is along the lines of, if players are expected to play perfectly to get optimal return, the dealers not playing/paying perfectly is also, Fair game.
I think the fair analogy to player mistakes costing them a bigger house edge is that dealer mistakes (accidentally missing a hand or showing the wrong card ...Etc) cost the casinos. Dealer's dealing mistakes are typically resolved to the advantage of the players, by giving them a chance to play or skip the hand.
When a hand is over though, it becomes just a matter of a financial transaction to resolve the hand. Having the dealer overpay by mistake is definitely in a different category in my mind than a player not following basic strategy.
I overall agree with the Wizard, I still will not correct overpays to other players, but will correct their underpays unless they're jerks.
July 13th, 2021 at 4:42:41 AM
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Quote: Joeman(snip)
If I give the McDonald's cashier a $10 bill to pay for my meal, and she gives me back change for a $20, I will point out her mistake and give her the $10 back...
(snip)
I will attempt to correct them on the overpayment. But there have been a few times that I would eventually just let it go (see one "real life" scenario below)
Scenario: I gave $20 for a meal at a fast food restaurant, and they gave me change for a $50.
I said something like: "I am certain I gave you a $20". and they responded with something like "The machine says you gave me a $50".
Then when I was about to leave I gave them one more chance by saying something like "you will be short at the end of the day". But they stubbornly disagreed, so I gave up and eventually accepted the overpayment in change to me.
Note: This has probably happened to me 5 or 6 times in my life where they haven't accepted that they made a mistake in my favor.
Quote: Mission146(snip)
6.) Therefore, unless a casino is simultaneously the most honest AND attentive casino in the world... .
(snip)
The casino I go to is pretty attentive and honest,
Even for table minimum bets they come down and correct dealer errors and over- or under- payments every time I have been at the tables.
Also, if you don't argue with them about it, then you would usually get a "$10 drink voucher" as a table min player / "$25 player" ( and one time it was a bit more substantial, like a "$50 meal voucher").
---
Lastly, I voted "I Would Tell the Dealer (My Hand Only)".
Note: If you had done this a few years ago, I probably would have voted "I Would Never Tell the Dealer".
July 13th, 2021 at 4:42:41 AM
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Quote: Joeman(snip)
If I give the McDonald's cashier a $10 bill to pay for my meal, and she gives me back change for a $20, I will point out her mistake and give her the $10 back...
(snip)
I will attempt to correct them on the overpayment. But there have been a few times that I would eventually just let it go (see one "real life" scenario below)
Scenario: I gave $20 for a meal at a fast food restaurant, and they gave me change for a $50.
I said something like: "I am certain I gave you a $20". and they responded with something like "The machine says you gave me a $50".
Then when I was about to leave I gave them one more chance by saying something like "you will be short at the end of the day". But they stubbornly disagreed, so I gave up and eventually accepted the overpayment in change to me.
Note: This has probably happened to me 5 or 6 times in my life where they haven't accepted that they made a mistake in my favor.
Quote: Mission146(snip)
6.) Therefore, unless a casino is simultaneously the most honest AND attentive casino in the world... .
(snip)
The casino I go to is pretty attentive and honest,
Even for table minimum bets they come down and correct dealing errors and over- or under- payments every time I have been at the tables.
Also, if you don't argue with them about it, then you would usually get a "$10 drink voucher" as a table min player / "$25 player" ( and one time it was a bit more substantial, like a "$50 meal voucher").
---
Lastly, I voted "I Would Tell the Dealer (My Hand Only)".
Note: If you had done this a few years ago, I probably would have voted "I Would Never Tell the Dealer".
July 13th, 2021 at 4:54:40 AM
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Yeah, if they don't want to accept that they made an error in my favor, then it's on them. I feel that my only obligation is to let them know of the error. What they choose to do with this information is their business.Quote: ksdjdjI will attempt to correct them on the overpayment. But there have been a few times that I would eventually just let it go (see one "real life" scenario below)
Scenario: I gave $20 for a meal at a fast food restaurant, and they gave me change for a $50.
I said something like: "I am certain I gave you a $20". and they responded with something like "The machine says you gave me a $50".
Then when I was about to leave I gave them one more chance by saying something like "you will be short at the end of the day". But they stubbornly disagreed, so I gave up and eventually accepted the overpayment in change to me.
I don't recall this happening to me, but it did happen to my granddad. Back in the day, he went to the bank to cash a check. After the transaction, he notice that the teller had overpaid him by $20. He went back and said, "I believe you made a mistake counting out my money." The bank manager responded saying, "We don't make mistakes!" He said, "OK'" and left.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
July 13th, 2021 at 5:53:46 AM
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Quote: ksdjdj
The casino I go to is pretty attentive and honest,
Even for table minimum bets they come down and correct dealer errors and over- or under- payments every time I have been at the tables.
Also, if you don't argue with them about it, then you would usually get a "$10 drink voucher" as a table min player / "$25 player" ( and one time it was a bit more substantial, like a "$50 meal voucher").
---
Lastly, I voted "I Would Tell the Dealer (My Hand Only)".
Note: If you had done this a few years ago, I probably would have voted "I Would Never Tell the Dealer".
(Quote clipped, relevance to my response)
That's definitely a different matter altogether. If I became aware that a casino made a habit of correcting mistakes that would go against the player, then my attitude on accepting overpays would change as it relates that specific casino---and I would report mispays that affect me only.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 13th, 2021 at 6:30:53 AM
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Quote: MDawg... I might have been vaguely aware that I was overpaid. In any case, a little while later a suit came out of nowhere, and told me that I had been overpaid, and I coughed up the hundred fifty or whatever it was that I owed on that small hand.
I was playing one morning when a suit arrived, verified a particular player at the table, and apologized, announcing the player had been underpaid on one hand the previous evening. He directed the dealer to cut the chips and pay the patron. Just under $150 iirc.
July 13th, 2021 at 9:55:22 AM
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Yes, once I received a phone call in the room a couple of days after I had cashed out some chips, and was told that I had been underpaid as I recall it was something around five hundred when cashing out at the cage. I hadn't even used my player card so it was impressive that they figured out who it was. I went to the cage, signed something, and they handed me the cash.
I tell you its wonderful to be here, man. I dont give a damn who wins or loses. Its just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
July 13th, 2021 at 10:00:55 AM
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The casino pays the dealer to make the correct payouts.
The casino pays the pit people to ensure the dealers make the correct payouts.
The casino pays their security to watch that the dealers do what they get paid for.
When the casino decides to pay me to do the job their workers aren't doing, I'll do their work for them.
I go to casinos to make money. If their inept employees make it easier for me to accomplish my mission, that's on them, not me.
The casino doesn't exist to show me a good time. It exists to take my money. If their employees are ll-trained and unprepared to properly perform their jobs, that's not on me.
Would those of you who give back chips after a dealer mistake correct them if flashed their hole card? Do you correct them when they call your five-card 17 a push when they have 18?
I was at a table once when the dealer tried to give third base a card after he clearly waved her off. The card was a ten and the dealer had a pat hand so the card should have gone to 1st base the next hand. Instead of making a big bet, the player called over the pit to explain what happened and asked that the ten be burned. Not quite understanding why a player would want a ten burned, he stopped the game and called upstairs. In his quest to " do the right thing" as he put it, first base annoyed the table and turned a simple mistake into something much bigger. I imagine any incident that results in a table being shut down for a few minutes has to result in an incident report being filled out so now the dealers mistake is immortalized.
The casino pays the pit people to ensure the dealers make the correct payouts.
The casino pays their security to watch that the dealers do what they get paid for.
When the casino decides to pay me to do the job their workers aren't doing, I'll do their work for them.
I go to casinos to make money. If their inept employees make it easier for me to accomplish my mission, that's on them, not me.
The casino doesn't exist to show me a good time. It exists to take my money. If their employees are ll-trained and unprepared to properly perform their jobs, that's not on me.
Would those of you who give back chips after a dealer mistake correct them if flashed their hole card? Do you correct them when they call your five-card 17 a push when they have 18?
I was at a table once when the dealer tried to give third base a card after he clearly waved her off. The card was a ten and the dealer had a pat hand so the card should have gone to 1st base the next hand. Instead of making a big bet, the player called over the pit to explain what happened and asked that the ten be burned. Not quite understanding why a player would want a ten burned, he stopped the game and called upstairs. In his quest to " do the right thing" as he put it, first base annoyed the table and turned a simple mistake into something much bigger. I imagine any incident that results in a table being shut down for a few minutes has to result in an incident report being filled out so now the dealers mistake is immortalized.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
July 13th, 2021 at 12:16:05 PM
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I'm somewhere in the middle, in that I won't mention a mistake related to the cards, but I will if it involves the money. One of each happened to me last Saturday. At PGP the dealer had 4-4-8-9-10-J-Q, but set it as a a pair of 4s in the high hand and QJ up top. This turned what would have been a table loss into an almost full table win. I kept my mouth shut. When I was playing craps there was some dispute over payment that distracted the dealer on my side. After it was resolved I noticed that the dealer hadn't moved my come bet to the nine, since it was a nine that had been rolled. I pointed to the bet, and the dealer misunderstood me and tried to pay the bet. I corrected her.
There's also the more rare scenario involving freerolling. I was playing PGP at the Flamingo once and the new dealer was dealing the wrong direction. I waited until I had a bad hand to point it out.
There's also the more rare scenario involving freerolling. I was playing PGP at the Flamingo once and the new dealer was dealing the wrong direction. I waited until I had a bad hand to point it out.
July 13th, 2021 at 12:24:05 PM
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Id have done the same thing with the Craps one because the mistake would have been initiated by an action I took.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 13th, 2021 at 4:53:52 PM
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Quote: JoemanMy question for Wizard is: Let's say you are playing BJ and the dealer draws to 21, but mistakes it for 22. Thinking she has busted, she pays everyone at the table. Would you still speak up knowing that it would affect everyone else at the table?
That's a tough one and it has happened before. I won't say anything. While I'm not proud to say nothing, it is in the interest of not causing conflict with the other players.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 13th, 2021 at 4:59:15 PM
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Quote: WizardThat's a tough one and it has happened before. I won't say anything. While I'm not proud to say nothing, it is in the interest of not causing conflict with the other players.
Toss it to the dealer to lock up?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 13th, 2021 at 8:18:06 PM
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I think that is reasonable. The casino won't notice it, but the other players will.Quote: WizardThat's a tough one and it has happened before. I won't say anything. While I'm not proud to say nothing, it is in the interest of not causing conflict with the other players.
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
July 13th, 2021 at 9:03:13 PM
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A tough one? I guess Im not a very nice guy. There is no way on God's green earth I would ever intervene when it comes to someone else's money. I avoid engaging with strangers in a casino and dont like it when they try to engage with me. There are some people I see nearly everyday in a casino and have never offered more than a nod.
One time a sportsbook regular handed my lady friend and I two tickets to the McGregor fight against the boxer. Next day I offered to buy him lunch. He was insulted. So I pretty much keep my mouth shut as do most regulars around me.
I cant imagine intervention that would take that guys money. He'd kill ya.
One time a sportsbook regular handed my lady friend and I two tickets to the McGregor fight against the boxer. Next day I offered to buy him lunch. He was insulted. So I pretty much keep my mouth shut as do most regulars around me.
I cant imagine intervention that would take that guys money. He'd kill ya.
Last edited by: moses on Jul 14, 2021
July 15th, 2021 at 12:27:03 AM
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Many years ago at my local casino I reported a player who was post betting when he kept doing it (i.e. it wasn't a mistake). It was 5-card poker and I was next to him. I thought his bet had been increased from £5 to £10, and then he raised with a flush. Paying more attention, a few hands later I saw him do it again with a pair of Aces. I had a quiet word with the manager who then looked at the tapes.Quote: Gandler...The one possible exception is if something shady is going on...So I guess my summary is, only report (or don't report) when it benefits the players unless there is something clearly (and overwhelmingly) illegal happening (some kind of cheating or colluding).
In the good old days the casino was a social place to go, one knew all the dealers and managers, and many of the players. Occasionally one might get a free meal, they even organised a casino trip to the dogs once. The casino used to look after its customers. Sadly as they've become more commercial, those days have now gone.
I think the casino, for small values, prefer you didn't point out the mistakes (in your favour) as it affects the confidence of newly trained dealers and in the long run they typically get the money back as you just play longer. It is obviously unethical to search out such a dealer and hope they make mistakes in your favour; if one happens to come along then, like learner drivers on the road, be patient as they add up the cards etc!
July 15th, 2021 at 6:39:55 AM
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So you think playing at a break-in house, where new dealers tend to make mistakes, is unethical?
I ask again- would you people correct a dealer who was flashing his hole card? Which dealer mistakes is it ethical to exploit?
If a dealer is paying 3-2 on a 6-5 table, is that a mistake you correct or can you live with that one?
I ask again- would you people correct a dealer who was flashing his hole card? Which dealer mistakes is it ethical to exploit?
If a dealer is paying 3-2 on a 6-5 table, is that a mistake you correct or can you live with that one?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
July 15th, 2021 at 6:53:32 AM
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Quote: billryanSo you think playing at a break-in house, where new dealers tend to make mistakes, is unethical?
I ask again- would you people correct a dealer who was flashing his hole card? Which dealer mistakes is it ethical to exploit?
If a dealer is paying 3-2 on a 6-5 table, is that a mistake you correct or can you live with that one?
He didn't say that, at least, as I interpreted his statement. He stated that it would be unethical to specifically seek out weak dealers in order to exploit mispays, paying on a player loss, not taking the player's money when the dealer has won...etc.
I disagree that it is unethical, but could understand why some people might feel that way. My position on it is that I am not responsible for the training of the dealers, much less did I personally do anything that would lead to the dealer making inaccurate pays, paying losses or not taking my money when the dealer has won.
Casinos take advantage of the fact that players play certain games sub-optimally all the time. I would even dare to go as far as say that the casino relies on them to do so, at least, for games with a very low house edge assuming optimal play.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 15th, 2021 at 9:23:34 AM
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Thanks for your reply but I'd like to hear from him. If he thinks it is unethical to seek out weak dealers, does he think it is unethical to play against break-in dealers who one can expect will make mistakes.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
July 15th, 2021 at 9:43:08 AM
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I know there are different attitudes on this forum about what is and isn't ethical and don't really want to be drawn into that argument or exactly where the boundary lies.Quote: billryan...I'd like to hear from him...
July 15th, 2021 at 9:56:25 AM
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Quote: charliepatrickI know there are different attitudes on this forum about what is and isn't ethical and don't really want to be drawn into that argument or exactly where the boundary lies.
That makes you a smarter person that I am; that's for sure.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 15th, 2021 at 9:56:36 AM
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Dealer overpaid me one black 100 chip on a recent session on a small bet.
I was also underpaid one 500 chip on a larger bet.
I pointed out both instances immediately.
But I still can't see myself pointing out that table limit 3:2 BJ payout I received on a losing 20. That's just too much of a swing.
I was also underpaid one 500 chip on a larger bet.
I pointed out both instances immediately.
But I still can't see myself pointing out that table limit 3:2 BJ payout I received on a losing 20. That's just too much of a swing.
I tell you its wonderful to be here, man. I dont give a damn who wins or loses. Its just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
July 15th, 2021 at 11:14:32 AM
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Quote: billryan
I ask again- would you people correct a dealer who was flashing his hole card? Which dealer mistakes is it ethical to exploit?
Protecting your hand from inadvertent exposure in the course of a card game is a fundamental concept. Like "According to Hoyle" basic. Sorry, my library isn't handy at the moment, or I'd track it down and quote it.
If a trained, licensed professional gambler, supervised by other trained, licensed professional gamblers, and employed by a consortium of professional gamblers to play the game is flashing, I believe it's either intentional, or their responsibility to notice and correct it.
I am their opponent in a card game.
It is not my responsibility to help them win.
If that seems overly harsh, let's not forget that it's their house, their game rules, their cards, they initially arbitrate any disputes, and some places have been known not to pay up if you manage to beat them at their own game.
What dealer mistakes is it ethical to exploit?
Any and all.
If you don't care to see the card, you can always look away or find another table.
May the cards fall in your favor.
July 15th, 2021 at 12:19:44 PM
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I used to only say something if the error cost me money. Now I speak up whether it costs me or benefits me, and regardless of how it affects other players.
If I'm unaffected either way, I say nothing.
Mind you, lately other than poker, I only play craps. So it's unlikely that an error affects me one way and affects someone else the other way.
Back in the day when I used to play a variety of table games, I was playing with PaiGowDan and this exact situation came up. I got overpaid, and hesitated to say something. Only because it was Dan, I DID point out the error.
Later we discussed the error and he got me to admit that I pointed it out because he was there. When he asked why I would normally keep it, I said, "I figure I'd only end up losing it back anyway."
He responded, "Oh. So it's your plan to lose? Fine. Be a loser."
Talk about a punch in the gut to make a point. But I changed my ways.
And I still miss Dan.
If I'm unaffected either way, I say nothing.
Mind you, lately other than poker, I only play craps. So it's unlikely that an error affects me one way and affects someone else the other way.
Back in the day when I used to play a variety of table games, I was playing with PaiGowDan and this exact situation came up. I got overpaid, and hesitated to say something. Only because it was Dan, I DID point out the error.
Later we discussed the error and he got me to admit that I pointed it out because he was there. When he asked why I would normally keep it, I said, "I figure I'd only end up losing it back anyway."
He responded, "Oh. So it's your plan to lose? Fine. Be a loser."
Talk about a punch in the gut to make a point. But I changed my ways.
And I still miss Dan.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
