Poll

1 vote (3.33%)
14 votes (46.66%)
1 vote (3.33%)
14 votes (46.66%)
5 votes (16.66%)
8 votes (26.66%)

30 members have voted

Mission146
Mission146
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July 12th, 2021 at 2:07:51 PM permalink
Here's a topic for discussion:

PREMISE:

1.) Many casinos offer Table Games for which the House Edge is predicated upon optimal play. These include common games such as Blackjack, Three-Card Poker, Mississippi Stud, Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em and several others.

2.) Most players do not play optimally.

3.) Because of mistakes that the players make, casinos enjoy an unquantifiable, but greater, house edge...or, stated another way, casinos have a greater expected win than their house edge would indicate that they should.

4.) Players do not always notice when the dealer has treated their winning hand as if it has lost.

5.) Players are not always aware of how much they should be paid out, at least, as relates certain games.

6.) Therefore, unless a casino is simultaneously the most honest AND attentive casino in the world, while it is the dealer's JOB to play players correctly, the player also bears some degree of responsibility (fair or not) to make sure that happens.

7.) Games can also be dealt in a way that is sub-optimal. Suboptimal dealing would include paying players when they have lost, paying players more than they should have been paid or paying off aspects of bets (such as the ante in UTH) when those should not have been paid.

CONCLUSION:

BECAUSE players must play optimally in order to get the lowest House Edge possible on a game, and additionally, should also be mindful of making sure that they are paid when they win, and are paid the correct amounts, dealers of the game (who are in control) should have those same responsibilities on the casino's end.

It is for that reason I maintain that players should not only feel no responsibility to correct dealer mispays, but in fact, should not ever correct dealer mispays that benefit themselves or any other player. If a player must look out for himself/herself without any supervision or surveillance equipment to the player's benefit, then why should the casino not be expected to do the same in order to ensure their house edge?

Discuss. Also, the poll above asks, "Would you correct a dealer mistake?" You may vote for multiple options, but please only vote for one of the top four.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
moses
moses
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Mission146
July 12th, 2021 at 2:21:47 PM permalink
Im.no saint. My hindparts hits the leather seat for one reason. And that's to play blackjack to the best of my ability.

On average, I get in 1200 hands in a week. How mamy hands do you suppose the dealers deals in a week? It's their job to not make or catch their own mistakes. No? It's my job to protect my financial interests. Sometimes that requires pointing out a mistake that turns my losing hand into a winner. But it's very rare. Generally speaking, the higher the stakes the less dealer mistakes.
Mission146
Mission146
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July 12th, 2021 at 2:36:52 PM permalink
Quote: moses

Im.no saint. My hindparts hits the leather seat for one reason. And that's to play blackjack to the best of my ability.

On average, I get in 1200 hands in a week. How mamy hands do you suppose the dealers deals in a week? It's their job to not make or catch their own mistakes. No? It's my job to protect my financial interests. Sometimes that requires pointing out a mistake that turns my losing hand into a winner. But it's very rare. Generally speaking, the higher the stakes the less dealer mistakes.



I remember being at a hospital, on one occasion, and getting something to eat from the cafeteria. When paying, I noticed that the cashier had an ID clipped to her shirt with her picture and the word, Volunteer.

I thought, "Has this lady never seen an emergency room bill? Why in the hell would anyone ever volunteer at a hospital?"

Do people volunteer in the cafeterias at headquarters of major banking corporations?

I'm not saying that the notion of volunteering is bad. I'm also not saying that the notion of financial honesty is bad.

I am saying that's it's silly to do free labor for rich entities and it's silly to look out for business locations in a manner over and above how they are looking out for you.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
MDawg
MDawg
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Mission146
July 12th, 2021 at 2:46:27 PM permalink
I was paid 3:2 for a table limit blackjack on a King Queen where the dealer hit to 21 and I lost. I had thrown down the two cards happily and the dealer had glanced at it and his mind must have registered "A snapper. Blackjack." He was fully aware that he hit to 21 because someone else at the table had a multi card 21 too, and the dealer double thumped the table in front of him and paid him nothing ("A push").

I said nothing, kept playing at that table, and no one ever came back and said a word. This was back before my decade or so hiatus, and no doubt surveillance was not watching that table I was playing at (it was not in the high limit area, but the bet was to the limit for that casino, and it was not just a thousand dollar blackjack it was to the limit), or was not watching it closely.

I'd have to say that any other time a dealer has made a mistake that I observed I have corrected him immediately, but such mistakes were for average a couple or few hundred dollar hands. It did not even occur to me to correct the dealer for that massive error on the losing twenty "blackjack" payout.

I have mentioned that blackjack on a losing hand payout to various people over the years, including professional card counters, and the responses have ranged from "Atta boy!" to, you didn't deserve that payout and should have paid it back. One person went so far as to say that I had disrupted the proper flow of money at the table by taking what wasn't mine. 🥴

There was one time early last year I think it was that I was paid in full at Baccarat for a three card 6 at a commissionless table (should have been paid half), and I might have been vaguely aware that I was overpaid. In any case, a little while later a suit came out of nowhere, and told me that I had been overpaid, and I coughed up the hundred fifty or whatever it was that I owed on that small hand.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
moses
moses
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Mission146
July 12th, 2021 at 2:55:29 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

I was paid 3:2 for a blackjack on a King Queen where the dealer hit to 21 and I lost. I had thrown down the two cards happily and the dealer had glanced at it and his mind must have registered "A snapper. Blackjack." He was fully aware that he hit to 21 because someone else at the table had a multi card 21 too, and the dealer double thumped the table in front of him and paid him nothing ("A push").

I said nothing, kept playing at that table, and no one ever came back and said a word. This was back before my decade or so hiatus, and no doubt surveillance was not watching that table I was playing at (it was not in the high limit area, but the bet was to the limit for that casino, and it was not just a thousand dollar blackjack it was to the limit), or was not watching it closely.

I'd have to say that any other time a dealer has made a mistake that I observed I have corrected him immediately, but such mistakes were for average a couple or few hundred dollar hands. It did not even occur to me to correct the dealer for that massive error on the losing twenty "blackjack" payout.

Dealer was clearly suffering from HIA syndtome.😉
MDawg
MDawg
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Mission146
July 12th, 2021 at 2:57:10 PM permalink
My friends and I refer to that particular incident as the "Power of the Force over Weak Minds."

I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
moses
moses
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Mission146
July 12th, 2021 at 3:00:41 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

My friends and I refer to that particular incident as the "Power of the Force over Weak Minds."


**it happens.
Dieter
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Dieter
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mosesMission146
July 12th, 2021 at 3:09:01 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


It is for that reason I maintain that players should not only feel no responsibility to correct dealer mispays, but in fact, should not ever correct dealer mispays that benefit themselves or any other player.



It is a jerk move to correct an overpay that doesn't affect you.
If you're not comfortable with people getting overpaid for whatever reason, find a different table.

It's always ok to question a short pay - taking a push, pushing a pay, etc. Your hand, another player's hand.

There are times when questioning your own overpay makes sense, but they're rare. It's ok to preemptively correct an overpay in your favor. It's also OK to let them hand you money.
May the cards fall in your favor.
MDawg
MDawg
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Mission146
July 12th, 2021 at 3:14:45 PM permalink
On the flip side of silence is the need to open your mouth sometimes. This player I've been letting play at my reserved table (or had been letting, I cut the player off from my table because I got tired of the player's loss chasing bets) had placed 20K on Player, and I had a few thousand on the Player too. Player started with a 4, Bank 6. Player drew a 7, which cut Player down to 1.

For all intensive purposes the wager is lost, and the dealer started grabbing for our chips to place them back into the tray when I had to remind her - Wait! but there's a draw.

She actually drew a two sided card, a 4, and cut the Bank to 0 and we won. Almost never happens that way, but that day, it did.

In that instance, there is no way the pit boss would have allowed the mistake, but if I hadn't said anything it would have been a bit of a mess with all our chips back in the tray and camera recall required to restore the bets before the mandatory sixth card was drawn.

In Baccarat that Bank draws against 6, when player draws a 6 or 7 is an oft forgotten rule.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
Gandler
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Mission146
July 12th, 2021 at 3:24:05 PM permalink
I tend to agree with your conclusion, you should correct (or not correct) mistakes when the correction benefits you or another player. The House only cares about themselves and go out of their way to make mistake work in their favor or do not get noticed, so there is no need to further help them (maybe that is an unfair generalization, I am sure there are some casinos that are exceptions).

The one possible exception is if something shady is going on (like a dealer seems to be intentionally making mistakes on just one player in a way that there could be something illegal going on....) But, even then there would need to be overwhelming evidence (like beyond blatant), and dealers would probably be rotated before I am convinced (and I likely will never see the same player/dealer combo again). So yeah, I probably would not report such a thing on mere suspicious because you open up a dealer to losing their job and some player to possible unfair scrutiny, there would have to be solid evidence (like you hear them planning it, and then see it, etc.... But if its that obvious and the House does not catch it, maybe they deserve to get away with it....). This is a pretty far-fetched scenario/exception, but I guess its possible....

So I guess my summary is, only report (or don't report) when it benefits the players unless there is something clearly (and overwhelmingly) illegal happening (some kind of cheating or colluding).

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