odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 24th, 2021 at 1:03:29 PM permalink
this may be a total embarrassment

Mission has preserved what I wrote if you want to look at it, this is under edit

if I get back to this, it will be un-editable here. However, if so I can still bitch about the strategy card, stay tuned.
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Jun 24, 2021
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Mission146
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odiousgambit
June 24th, 2021 at 1:43:49 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

this may be a total embarrassment

Mission has preserved what I wrote if you want to look at it, this is under edit

if I get back to this, it will be un-editable here. However, if so I can still bitch about the strategy card, stay tuned.



Stephen How seems to address this on his strategy page:

https://discountgambling.net/ultimate-texas-holdem/

According to his strategy, it wouldn't matter if your kicker were a three---you would raise.
Last edited by: Mission146 on Jun 24, 2021
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 24th, 2021 at 2:15:43 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Stephen How seems to address this on his strategy page:

https://discountgambling.net/ultimate-texas-holdem/

According to his strategy, it wouldn't matter if your kicker were a three---you would raise.

I'm going to have to study this. Possibly, I was so thrown off with by what I was dealing with, I learned something that was wrong and now have this all screwed up. I'll have to edit the above to 'under edit'
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Mission146
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odiousgambit
June 24th, 2021 at 2:24:29 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I'm going to have to study this. Possibly, I was so thrown off with by what I was dealing with, I learned something that was wrong and now have this all screwed up. I'll have to edit the above to 'under edit'



I wouldn't be embarrassed, but what did you say that I preserved? ;)
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 25th, 2021 at 3:39:55 AM permalink


The mess is on me, but it's not too bad maybe. The original that needed editing/correction did include some thank-you's that I don't mind preserving - plus now I thank Mission-146 too for his help. Plus some links.

The next post, sometime today I think, will expand on some thoughts about UTH and a few remarks about strategy cards and strategy help.

>>>

Having a little fun here and talking about the LasVegasAdvisor.com strategy card for Ultimate Texas Holdem that has "copyright 2011 James Grosjean - beyondcounting.com" printed on it. [I stand corrected and will say I now have more of a minor criticism, stay tuned]

I have satellite internet and I want to thank the WoO site for working on improving the UTH free game and on the Calculator Page for UTH that let's you check out any hand. Up until a few days ago I would constantly get a warning that my internet failed at a critical point and not to trust the advice. Likewise, the calculator page would fail to function, I suspect for the same reason. Satellite internet has a lag-time I've been told, creating some other problems for me too. In any case, this has recently mostly gone away for these two things, links provided below. 

Now that it is working pretty good, the function for the free game that gives you a pop-up warning that you should have bet when you didn't or vice-versa is working for the flop stage very well now, and it was at this stage that previously I couldn't trust that there was no malfunction. But I noticed that I was getting the warning that I should have bet when I didn't on the hole-card-dependent pair of two's situation, and it didn't fit either the Wizard's advice or the Grosjean strategy card advice. So I started going to the calculator page for evaluation. [stay tuned]

https://wizardofodds.com/play/ultimate-texas-hold-em/
https://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/
https://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/calculator/
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 25th, 2021 at 4:27:29 AM permalink
The Stephen How page I think helps explain how I developed playing with an error. In the process of realizing I was playing with that error, which came about from the Wizard game playing properly for me, I thought I had been misled by strategy cards and strategy pages. 

Quote: from How link

Generally, you bet (2x) any pair you’ve made on the flop.  The only time you’d check your pair is if the board is suited, and you have a pair, no flush draw, and your kicker is smaller than the board (it’s pretty rare). 

So I was going from not trusting the flop-stage warnings in the Wizard game [fault mostly of satellite-type internet] to sometimes seeing a warning and sometimes not when I paired 2's on the flop. This confused me because the error I developed in my play was to not bet on the hole-card-dependent* paired 2s until the last 1x stage, same as pocket paired 2s. So when I was going to the strategy card, or to the Wizard page for that matter, I see this for the flop: "bet any pair using a hole card, except pocket 22" and "Make the 2X raise with ... [a] Hidden pair*, except pocket deuces", resp. Unfortunately I was thinking they meant to include the hole-card-dependent paired 2s in this advice, though clearly you can say I should not have thought that. But the error was pretty ingrained, making it hard to shake. I do want to be critical about that sentence construction, though. "bet any pair using a hole card, except pocket 22" makes a nonsensical sentence since pocket 22 is already excluded from the set that makes up 'any pair using a hole card'. So this is what remains, a minor beef, I'm sure nobody is impressed, ha. 

I do have further thoughts about UTH for a later post. 


*That's another thing, describing what I am calling hole-card-dependent* paired 2s is a mouthful and the other choices suck too. The LVA strategy card uses "any pair using a hole card" , another mouthful, and the Wizard chose "hidden pair" which on first blush seems the worst choice but at this point I'm starting to think that's the way to go. It's not confusing to a seasoned poker player, but might be to a newbie
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
gordonm888
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odiousgambitMission146
June 25th, 2021 at 10:07:46 AM permalink
Maybe you can publish under the name "Schmosjean."

Quote: odiousgambit

I do want to be critical about that sentence construction, though. "bet any pair using a hole card, except pocket 22" makes a nonsensical sentence since pocket 22 is already excluded from the set that makes up 'any pair using a hole card'. So this is what remains, a minor beef, I'm sure nobody is impressed, ha.



I agree that the wording "bet any pair using a hole card, except pocket 22" is terrible. I also have never liked "hidden pair" since it is not hidden from the player. In standard poker terminology, you would say "Bet when you have paired the board."
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Mission146
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odiousgambit
June 25th, 2021 at 12:16:56 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

The Stephen How page I think helps explain how I developed playing with an error. In the process of realizing I was playing with that error, which came about from the Wizard game playing properly for me, I thought I had been misled by strategy cards and strategy pages. 

So I was going from not trusting the flop-stage warnings in the Wizard game [fault mostly of satellite-type internet] to sometimes seeing a warning and sometimes not when I paired 2's on the flop. This confused me because the error I developed in my play was to not bet on the hole-card-dependent* paired 2s until the last 1x stage, same as pocket paired 2s. So when I was going to the strategy card, or to the Wizard page for that matter, I see this for the flop: "bet any pair using a hole card, except pocket 22" and "Make the 2X raise with ... [a] Hidden pair*, except pocket deuces", resp. Unfortunately I was thinking they meant to include the hole-card-dependent paired 2s in this advice, though clearly you can say I should not have thought that. But the error was pretty ingrained, making it hard to shake. I do want to be critical about that sentence construction, though. "bet any pair using a hole card, except pocket 22" makes a nonsensical sentence since pocket 22 is already excluded from the set that makes up 'any pair using a hole card'. So this is what remains, a minor beef, I'm sure nobody is impressed, ha. 

I do have further thoughts about UTH for a later post. 

*That's another thing, describing what I am calling hole-card-dependent* paired 2s is a mouthful and the other choices suck too. The LVA strategy card uses "any pair using a hole card" , another mouthful, and the Wizard chose "hidden pair" which on first blush seems the worst choice but at this point I'm starting to think that's the way to go. It's not confusing to a seasoned poker player, but might be to a newbie



I agree that the wording could have been better, but in Wizard's defense, one can contextualize the point being made by the fact that 22 is the only pocket pair that would not have been 4x raised already.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
odiousgambit
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June 27th, 2021 at 7:48:30 AM permalink
So I have some more thoughts about UTH and playing it in the casino. I'm going to make the case that it's really pretty hard to play UTH well even if you have the strategies down pretty good. And make the case that you don't have time to count the outs.

This is why the UTH video machine I came across at Cherokee is calling me like a siren. I guess it's good that it's too far away for me to show up on a whim, but I miss being able to play on a regular basis thanks to some other casinos dropping it. I love the low minimum. It also may allow more time for decisions, though there must be a time limit as more than one person can play at a time and the video dealer puts the same hand to beat for everybody. I failed to check this out thoroughly, I was playing by myself, but never was warned to hurry up. Alas, it is either about to be repaired [3 out of 5 video terminals were dead] or it is on it's way out, so it might mean to play it's going to have to be the dealer-dealt game with much higher minimum and only certain hours.

Playing using the Wizard's game is good prep, not only do you get better with all decision stages, but it's almost impossible to make yourself slow down all that much. Maybe that's good, you do need to become a quick decision maker. The 4x decision needs to be something akin to muscle memory that I think the brain can develop, that is, it no longer involves 'thinking' if you know what I mean. The more each stage becomes that type to you, the better. One problem though is I can get click-happy, clicking on the 'check' icon when in my mind I'm thinking 'on to the next' , mentally I've already gone past the 4x decision and this easily might be clicking on the wrong thing. This never happens to me when it is dealer-dealt and didn't seem to happen the one time I got a chance to play on the video machine.

You want to get the 4x decision out of the way because it isn't just pair+ development you're looking for, but the development of straights and flushes. Speaking for myself anyway, by the time the flop comes you need to have determined what to look for. In regular 7-card poker, I get few straights compared to how many I potentially could get, because I fold something like 3h, 7d so quickly. But playing UTH you're not getting to a folding decision until you've seen the entire board, so that same hand should have you thinking 'possible straight'. If you want a confirmation that your straight if it comes can be overlooked, check out how often a so-so dealer can miss it amongst what can just look like a jumble. I suppose a flush is harder to miss, but my thinking is it is best to be the first one to spot that too, before the dealer evaluates your hand.

I'm always impressed by someone who never misses straights/flushes and the speed at which they spot them.

On the flop you're also facing the first kicker decisions too. The dealer calls every bet you make without knowing his hand, and you might win by out-kicking him. The advice comes down to what kicker you have when you have other good prospects, but not something made or nearly made. This requires memorization for the most part, and the closer it is to brain-muscle-memory, BMM shall we say, the better. A slight familiarity with a strategy card such as LVA has can be used for a quick glance should BMM be failing you. The dealer isn't going to be happy if you sit there and study it.

At the turn/river stage I think the number of decisions left can be underestimated. First you need to look hard at the board, while practically simultaneously possibly still determining if you have a straight etc. You can overlook your straight now for sure if it only uses one card in your hand and the straight you were looking for didn't materialize. That you have a flush, you should catch that even you started out unsuited quite a bit more easily ... still, you can be busy looking elsewhere. Again, that first good hard look at the board was essential.

You don't want to miss a paired board or see only one of two pairs on the board. If satisfied you have nothing, you rapidly need to determine if you have an 18 or 21 outs situation and which it is. I'm going to maintain that you do not have time to actually count these outs. After playing enough, I think most players develop a system. If the board is an unpaired, rainbowed jumble, K alone is a good kicker and you bet [with A you already bet]. If higher cards are present, there is an "order of succession" you might say. If there is A or K on the board, the Q is good; if both A and K, or K and Q, i.e. any two higher, then J is good. This can go down to a 10 or 9, but you might be running into a very high dealer straight.

In other situations, you need to recognize if the board represents not 15, but 11 or 7 outs. If 11, obviously 2 cards that outrank and are missing on the board mean 8 more outs taking you past 18, and 3 such missing take you past 21. I am still working on more BMM for these situations and I think I'll be there soon.

And you're not done yet. I suppose you can say shame on the player who has this happen, but let's say you have that 3-7 hand and instantly know on seeing the board you're dead for pairing, straights, flushes, and a decent kicker all. It sure is easy to fold that hand, forgetting to really study the board. You might miss, say, two pair with high kicker on the board. Though it looks like you're just sucking hind teat, that hand is heavily favored to push. You and the dealer are highly likely to have the same hand. If you have never accidentally folded that hand, my hat is off to you.

Finally, why am I saying there isn't enough time to count the outs? Well, I suppose you could keep telling the dealer to stop while you count them, but you're holding things up as far as the casino is concerned. If you did your due deligence on examining the board and your hand, you took a bit of time already. It is the job of the dealer to keep it moving, so he's going to worry about the pit getting on his case. It'd be similar to taking forever while you set the dice. Yeah, you can try taking all the time in the world, but you're going to get pushback. Sooner or later you won't be having fun, I've had some experience with this. There surely is also a time limit where you can find a video version of this game, at least if it is still going to be the same video dealer for each player, buxom though they might be.

If you made it this far hope you enjoyed it. You have a new acronym to use, BMM , ha!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Mission146
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odiousgambitThisIsMyJam
June 28th, 2021 at 4:34:58 AM permalink
1.) I have to respectfully disagree with, 'Not having time to count the outs." I think you can do it in a reasonable amount of time with enough practice on the WoO game. Also, it's your money on the table, so take as long as you need. In the few times I've played UTH I have just said them out loud, "Okay, so you could have four aces, four kings, three queens, two sevens, three fours and three deuces...(Board is Q-7-7-3-2)....that's nineteen out and no straights and no flushes." If another player asks what I'm doing, then I just tell him/her...it's good advice for that game anyway and probably better than however they are playing.

2.) What are the minimums in the casino you're talking about?

3.) You'll get that way with counting outs. When you're playing a medium high card, the only thing you'll have to remember to pay special attention for is straight draws. You'll see unpaired cards on the five-card board and won't even consider their ranks, you'll just think, "Three...Six...Nine...," and then any rank higher than your high card is four, so you're mostly adding by twos threes and fours.

-Most queens call, with the most frequent exception being all undercards (to the queen) on an unpaired board.

-It's probably not half the time exactly, but it seems like Jacks call about half the time. On an unpaired board with no straights or flushes, jacks call with two over cards (to the jack) in the community hand, so that's pretty common. Jacks call paired boards with one over card (no straights or flushes), all the better (for you) if it happens to be a high pair; the over card is important for this one, otherwise, higher ranks are four outs...and an unpaired undercard is three outs anyway, so it goes from seven outs (between the two ranks) to three. Jacks also call 2P on the board.

-Tens rarely call. Start with every over card that is not on the board is four, so many counts already start with twelve or (more rarely, especially since it can't have matched anything in your hand) sixteen. Tens like pairs with two over cards on the board, but not if it's an over pair on the board...of course. Tens can call unpaired boards with three over cards (to the ten) showing and no flushes.

-Nines very rarely call. A-K-Q-10-5, four over cards, no flushes, nine calls. Nines can call higher pairs on the board with two other higher cards, no straights and no flushes, of course.

Combine those general rules with counting outs and it becomes much faster. You see the situation and sometimes almost immediately know how many outs that there are just from having seen the situation (and remembering the general rules) before.

4.) That's a great tip for everyone. It's always worth the second or two it takes to double-check so you're not folding straights. Also, you could just take a strategy card for the 4x decision. When I play on WoO...it seems that I have a habit of forgetting Kx cutoffs, but otherwise have it down. I don't know why I sometimes forget the Kx cutoff; that's pretty silly.

5.) Yeah, I agree about what you said post-flop (but before turn and river) and also think that's the toughest decision point. For me, it's because I have practiced that the least on WoO because the individual possible decision points don't always come up a lot.

As far as the dealer being happy about you sitting there and studying it, it's your money; the dealer can go apply for other jobs if he doesn't like how long you take to make your decision. He's getting paid the same amount that hour either way, ignoring tips.

6.) As to your Turn/River straights and flushes paragraph, just do a quick double-check that you do the same way, every time, even if it's ridiculous. Check for flushes, then straights, then pairs and, finally, count your outs if you don't have any of those things. There might only be a maximum of two or three to any one suit in seven cards...check for the flush anyway. Look at the boards for missing gap straights and see if you have the cards. Identify the possible straights whether or not you maybe have something that can fill them...an inside straight is an easy to miss four dealer outs anyway, so now you've identified that and have included them in your count.

Basically, just have a procedure for that decision point that you do the same way, every time.

7.) You have all the time in the world to count your outs. I must suggest that you get any notion to the contrary out of your head. It's not a game show, so there's no timer running.

8.) On your, "Accidental fold hand," my advice is to ALWAYS count outs after the Turn/River when you have absolute rags. Besides, calling A-A-J-J-9 with 6-2 in your hand looks super bad ass, even though it's not. I love that call!

9.) If the casino doesn't like how long you're taking, then they can stop offering the game. I'm sure the casino would love it if everyone shot for 1,500 hands/hour on Video Poker, (I know my play would be a mess, even on my two best games/paytables) but don't give them the power over your money to make you feel hurried. Also, Table Games should be relaxing, not stressful, so just take your sweet time and BOO to anyone who says otherwise.

Besides, if you're playing recreationally, then just reflect the extra little bit of time you took in dealer tokes. It's better to have that EV give the crew a little something to lock up than it is to lose that EV to the casino by way of mistakes.

It's not similar to taking a year and a half to set the dice because setting the dice (it is generally believed, and also believed by me) does not actually accomplish anything. Pass Line EV does not change based on whether or not the dice have been set. YOUR EV on UTH changes based on whether or not you make the right play.

And, if the casino makes you feel like they don't want your action because you're taking your time making the correct playing decisions---good. Just don't give that shift (or, maybe even that casino) your action anymore. The best game for a player concerned with making the right decisions will be the slowest possible shift (probably early afternoon non-Friday, non-holiday, weekdays) that the game is actually open.
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