WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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November 23rd, 2010 at 6:40:47 AM permalink
Basically there is an electronic machine that allows you to play either three card poker, single deck blackjack or let it ride.

You can play three hands of 3CP but you only see each hand in order, so you decide to play or fold hand 1 before you see hand 2 or 3, then you decide hand 2.... and so on.

Single deck blackjack, allows 4 hands to be played at once, could i bet minimum on the first three hands, and maximum on the 4th, then draw as many cards as possible to gain info for the fourth hand? bet range is 1-100 max, so you could bet 1-1-1-97

Let it ride, I have not played it, but you can play 3 hands at once, I assume seeing each hand after it is decided if you are going to play. This machine is not watched, so in the case of the single deck blackjack you could hit 20 on the minimum hand without fear of being caught.
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cardshark
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November 23rd, 2010 at 7:01:41 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

Basically there is an electronic machine that allows you to play either three card poker, single deck blackjack or let it ride.

You can play three hands of 3CP but you only see each hand in order, so you decide to play or fold hand 1 before you see hand 2 or 3, then you decide hand 2.... and so on.

Single deck blackjack, allows 4 hands to be played at once, could i bet minimum on the first three hands, and maximum on the 4th, then draw as many cards as possible to gain info for the fourth hand? bet range is 1-100 max, so you could bet 1-1-1-97

Let it ride, I have not played it, but you can play 3 hands at once, I assume seeing each hand after it is decided if you are going to play. This machine is not watched, so in the case of the single deck blackjack you could hit 20 on the minimum hand without fear of being caught.



You'll need to provide us with the rules for the blackjack game in order to analyze it (stand or hit soft 17? early or late surrender? split to 4 hands? European hole card rule? does bj pay 3-2? etc). If the rules are favorable enough, it might be possible to get a small advantage.

As for let it ride, seeing 3 hands is only 6 cards more and I don't think that is enough to get over 3.5% house edge (standard rules). As per the WOO site: "According to Grosjean, if you can see every player card in a 7-player game, and made perfect use of the information, it would lower the house advantage from 3.51% to 2.34% only."

The same goes for 3cp.
WizardofEngland
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November 23rd, 2010 at 7:22:31 AM permalink
Quote: cardshark

You'll need to provide us with the rules for the blackjack game in order to analyze it (stand or hit soft 17? early or late surrender? split to 4 hands? European hole card rule? does bj pay 3-2? etc). If the rules are favorable enough, it might be possible to get a small advantage.

As for let it ride, seeing 3 hands is only 6 cards more and I don't think that is enough to get over 3.5% house edge (standard rules). As per the WOO site: "According to Grosjean, if you can see every player card in a 7-player game, and made perfect use of the information, it would lower the house advantage from 3.51% to 2.34% only."

The same goes for 3cp.



Ah ha sorry.

Stand on all 17's, no surrender, split once only :-( and no hole card. BJ pays 3-2 double down on 9-10-11 and insurance if an ace is showing. you would lose your double or split bets if a ten turned into a BJ
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DJTeddyBear
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November 23rd, 2010 at 7:37:10 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

Single deck blackjack, allows 4 hands to be played at once, could i bet minimum on the first three hands, and maximum on the 4th, then draw as many cards as possible to gain info for the fourth hand? bet range is 1-100 max, so you could bet 1-1-1-97.

That may not work. Some (most? all?) blackjack machines use multiple deck shoes, and individual shoes for each player and the dealer.

So this is single deck? Is it one deck for the entire hand, or one deck per player? I'd play a few games at low bets with maximum players and see if any card repeats during the hand. Then you'd know.


Quote: WizardofEngland

This machine is not watched, so in the case of the single deck blackjack you could hit 20 on the minimum hand without fear of being caught.

The machine could be watching itself. Sending an alert to a floorperson if a player repeatedly hits on hands like 18, 19 or 20 would be a simple thing to program.
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WizardofEngland
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November 23rd, 2010 at 7:51:39 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

That may not work. Some (most? all?) blackjack machines use multiple deck shoes, and individual shoes for each player and the dealer.

So this is single deck? Is it one deck for the entire hand, or one deck per player? I'd play a few games at low bets with maximum players and see if any card repeats during the hand. Then you'd know.


The machine could be watching itself. Sending an alert to a floorperson if a player repeatedly hits on hands like 18, 19 or 20 would be a simple thing to program.



It is one deck for the whole game, 100% confirmed.

And it cannot report anything back, its part of the requirement for the machine to be in place. It's in an off track betting shop well away from the single staff member, not even in line of sight, who wouldn't even know what you were doing if they saw you do it. I would of course want to keep it low key, or once the realise they are losing on it, they will change how it works.
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miplet
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November 23rd, 2010 at 8:02:13 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

Ah ha sorry.

Stand on all 17's, no surrender, split once only :-( and no hole card. BJ pays 3-2 double down on 9-10-11 and insurance if an ace is showing. you would lose your double or split bets if a ten turned into a BJ


Double after split?
Lose double splits bet to ace showing turning into BJ?
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WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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November 23rd, 2010 at 8:06:20 AM permalink
yes you can double after a split, and you would lose it to all bj's
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cardshark
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November 23rd, 2010 at 8:50:52 AM permalink
Plugging your rules into the WOO bj house edge calculator gives me a 0.1% house advantage. It wouldn't take much to counter this advantage, so in your example of 1-1-1-97, I think counting would get you a +EV in the long run. Play all hands optimally (in other words, don't bust the first three hands to get more cards out, that will cost more than its worth in +EV on the last hand), using a count-adjusted, composition-dependent strategy (dig around the WOO blackjack site).

Now, that said, you aren't walking away with a big advantage here. I don't know the number, but I'm thinking its less than 1%. Is it worth the risk? Maybe.
WizardofEngland
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November 23rd, 2010 at 8:57:16 AM permalink
Quote: cardshark

Plugging your rules into the WOO bj house edge calculator gives me a 0.1% house advantage. It wouldn't take much to counter this advantage, so in your example of 1-1-1-97, I think counting would get you a +EV in the long run. Play all hands optimally (in other words, don't bust the first three hands to get more cards out, that will cost more than its worth in +EV on the last hand), using a count-adjusted, composition-dependent strategy (dig around the WOO blackjack site).

Now, that said, you aren't walking away with a big advantage here. I don't know the number, but I'm thinking its less than 1%. Is it worth the risk? Maybe.



If it was 1%, I would theoretically be making £1 per game, and I can play about 2 games a minute. so £2 per minute = £120 an hour! Or about $200. Not to shabby, but what sort of count?
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cardshark
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November 23rd, 2010 at 9:06:04 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

If it was 1%, I would theoretically be making £1 per game, and I can play about 2 games a minute. so £2 per minute = £120 an hour! Or about $200. Not to shabby, but what sort of count?



I don't think its as high as 1%, but I don't know how to quickly quantify your advantage. Maybe another member can chime in with a more precise figure.

Even at 0.2%, that's £24 an hour, which might be worthwhile for you.

As for a count, you want to use composition-dependent strategy. You can find charts on the WOO blackjack site for a single hand. You'll need to do some research as to how to play that last hand as optimally as possible.

There are other considerations, like bankroll size. As you can imagine, you will need a huge bankroll for $100 bets with a reasonable risk of ruin.
WizardofEngland
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November 23rd, 2010 at 9:15:24 AM permalink
Quote: cardshark

I don't think its as high as 1%, but I don't know how to quickly quantify your advantage. Maybe another member can chime in with a more precise figure.

Even at 0.2%, that's £24 an hour, which might be worthwhile for you.

As for a count, you want to use composition-dependent strategy. You can find charts on the WOO blackjack site for a single hand. You'll need to do some research as to how to play that last hand as optimally as possible.

There are other considerations, like bankroll size. As you can imagine, you will need a huge bankroll for $100 bets with a reasonable risk of ruin.



Well I earn £20 per hour as a day job, then i get taxed, so £24 would be good.
It's good that you mention bankroll. To get the money loaded onto the machine you either need to load in £20 (or £50) notes, or get a prepaid voucher code from the cashier that you add to the machine. I am assuming you would need maybe £5000+ for this?
I think buying that amount of money on a prepaid voucher would at least cause a phone call to head office, or attempting to load that many notes into the machine would attract attention, the acceptor is noisey. So if you had to start with a bankroll of £200, could you get to a level that was worth playing within the 10 hour opening time this venue has? Or would you need a higher bankroll?
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elscrabinda
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November 23rd, 2010 at 9:31:51 AM permalink
Assuming you can get your hands on that much cash then its no problem- you only have to ensure that you have enough money in the machine to cover possible double/splits for THAT round (£400 I guess). No need to draw attention by loading thousands at a time
WizardofEngland
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November 23rd, 2010 at 9:36:41 AM permalink
Quote: elscrabinda

Assuming you can get your hands on that much cash then its no problem- you only have to ensure that you have enough money in the machine to cover possible double/splits for THAT round (£400 I guess). No need to draw attention by loading thousands at a time



The cash is not a problem, but loading in £400 is like 20 notes, and if I lost all the £400 (which is very possible) I would then need to put another £400 in. Would i be better building up my bankroll slowly first?
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elscrabinda
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November 23rd, 2010 at 9:47:50 AM permalink
No, you're just as likely to not build up your bankroll. Why waste your time?

Staff aren't going to be concerned about a busy and noisy note machine, you're only going to draw unwelcome attention to yourself if you win
DJTeddyBear
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November 23rd, 2010 at 10:00:49 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

...you either need to load in £20 (or £50) notes...

It seems to me that loading four £50 notes wouldn't draw too much attention.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
WizardofEngland
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November 23rd, 2010 at 10:03:15 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

It seems to me that loading four £50 notes wouldn't draw too much attention.



No, but that many £50 notes are very hard to get hold of unless you cash out £10,000 from a casino.
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