6-8-10X Odds on Craps

I have heard that they're some casinos offering 6-8-10X Odds on craps now. Anybody here if this is true and if so where? What would the house edge, on these odds, be both on the Do's and Don'ts? Thank you for any help.

Let's see... All the big Station Casinos save Red Rock and Green Valley Ranch offer 10X across the board. Main Street Station(Boyd)downtown has 20X and good beer! Stratosphere has 10X. Cannery 10X, East Side Cannery and Casino Royale 100X... oh, hell. Just go to Nextshooter.com and check the craps directory, the Boneman lists every casino in the state. I think the Wizard of Odds does too and I know he lists all the HE.

Quote: pat1426

I have heard that they're some casinos offering 6-8-10X Odds on craps now. Anybody here if this is true and if so where? What would the house edge, on these odds, be both on the Do's and Don'ts? Thank you for any help.

The house edge is the same on any size odds bet, Do or Don't, 2X, 4X, 10X, or 1000X: 0%.

To expand on what mkl said, the Wizard has a table showing how different odds bets affect the HA on PL bets. It's on his craps page.

PL + 10X odds = .184%

Quote: mkl654321

The house edge is the same on any size odds bet, Do or Don't, 2X, 4X, 10X, or 1000X: 0%.

I agree with you, but, obviously, he is referring to the COMBINED HA, the flat ev divided by the flat plus odds bet handle. I have spent the last twenty years trying to get people to look at the ev, which never changes no matter how much/little odds is/are bet, but everybody likes the idea that taking/laying odds reduces the house edge. So, just for fun, the combined HA on 6, 8, 10X odds is 0.2157%. For $10 pass, taking those odds, 60 bets, the ev is -$8.48, which is, of course, just .01414 times $10 times 60. The average bet is $65.56, and the standard deviation for 60 bets is $696.

For the DP, the average bet is $92.29 (I don't count the bets that end up as a push), the ev for 60 bets is -$8.42 and the standard deviation is $705. The HA is 0.152%.

The higher odds multiple, the more the variance, without adding any expected loss. Just don't forget: variance works both ways!
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear, but including the flat bet.

Hi Alan

Thanks for understanding what I was driving at. I think I understood your answer. I appreciate that. You obviously understand the math. Let's see if you understand the casinos. Say I'm a DP playing at the Golden Nugget and they are offering 6-8-10X odds and my flat bet is $10 and take full-odds. Now knowing that the HA is 0.152%, what can I expect in, percentage-wise, comps and cash back? If the flat bet needs to be higher, so be it, make it $25. Draw me a scenario you're comfortable with.

Sincerely

Pat
Las Vegas, NV

Quote: pat1426

Hi Alan

Thanks for understanding what I was driving at. I think I understood your answer. I appreciate that. You obviously understand the math. Let's see if you understand the casinos. Say I'm a DP playing at the Golden Nugget and they are offering 6-8-10X odds and my flat bet is $10 and take full-odds. Now knowing that the HA is 0.152%, what can I expect in, percentage-wise, comps and cash back? If the flat bet needs to be higher, so be it, make it $25. Draw me a scenario you're comfortable with.

Sincerely

Pat
Las Vegas, NV

Some casinos consider odds bets, or some percentage of them, in determining your play level for comps, but others do not. I have no interest in this aspect of gambling, myself, but there was a very long dispute on rec.gambling.craps years ago about this issue. Some argued that the casinos are right NOT to count odds bets, because they do not expect any winnings from them; others argued that, even though the HA on odds bets is zero, the fact that the casinos have more money than the players gave them an advantage. My view is that there is no casino advantage; if one player busts, another will take his/her place. The players as a collective and the casinos as a collective will "battle to a tie" on the odds.

So, the casino may only consider your flat bet, and the overall HA of 0.152% is completely irrelevant; what matters is the .01414 on the $10.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Quote: pat1426

Hi Alan

Thanks for understanding what I was driving at. I think I understood your answer. I appreciate that. You obviously understand the math. Let's see if you understand the casinos. Say I'm a DP playing at the Golden Nugget and they are offering 6-8-10X odds and my flat bet is $10 and take full-odds. Now knowing that the HA is 0.152%, what can I expect in, percentage-wise, comps and cash back? If the flat bet needs to be higher, so be it, make it $25. Draw me a scenario you're comfortable with.

I've been told flat out that my odds bets didn't count for rating purposes, regardless of their size. This was at Harrah's (yes, I gambled there. Great is my shame) and Treasure Island in Vegas. It seems logical that if rating is based on theo (you'll get rated higher betting $50 on a roulette wheel than $50 on the Pass Line), then your odds bet, being worth nothing to the house, wouldn't earn you any comps.

Quote: mkl654321

I've been told flat out that my odds bets didn't count for rating purposes, regardless of their size. This was at Harrah's.

As posted here several times recently, pit bosses at Bally's have consistently said the odds were included in the rating. One, who said he was a don't bettor, said it was advantageous for the don't bettor because of the higher sums wagered and proceeded to demonstrate on his computer screen at the table. That seems to hold in Atlantic City, too.

Quote: SanchoPanza

As posted here several times recently, pit bosses at Bally's have consistently said the odds were included in the rating. One, who said he was a don't bettor, said it was advantageous for the don't bettor because of the higher sums wagered and proceeded to demonstrate on his computer screen at the table. That seems to hold in Atlantic City, too.

That's surprising, but maybe they're desperate.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

I always got the feeling that there was a little bit of wiggle room in it for the boss. For example. If you are betting $5 on the pass line, then putting $50 odds and placing the 6/8 for only $6 each, you are looked at as a smaller bettor for comp purposes even though you've got the $50 odds. But if you started your place bets at 30 each, and most of your other bets are also larger, then they'd just roll the odds into that, realizing that you are a larger bettor. If you are only "going large" behind the line, and everything else is table min, they'll be a little more skeptical.

My understanding is that off-strip casinos do not offer 6,8,10X odds anymore, thinking that it is simpler to offer 10X odds.
No strip casinos go above 3,4,5X odds.

Quote: pacomartin

My understanding is that off-strip casinos do not offer 6,8,10X odds anymore, thinking that it is simpler to offer 10X odds.
No strip casinos go above 3,4,5X odds.

I know Casino Royale looks, feels and sounds as something that ought ot be tucked away Downtown or maybe in an alley somewhere off Flamingo, but the plain fact remains it is on the Strip ;)

I'll allow that the Startosphere isn't on the Strip anymore, as the Strip pretty much now ends at the Wynncore by popular perception.

Quote: goatcabin

the overall HA of 0.152% is completely irrelevant; what matters is the .01414 on the $10.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

The way I like to put it is, you can change the HE with free odds, but not the EV. I think it is a little misleading to say what you did, though, granting that it is not incorrect factually. What can be overlooked is that the variance becomes a dominant factor. A player should not think of betting the pass line with odds and run a chance of winning or losing 14 cents for every $10 and then wonder what the heck happened on likely wins or losses on a given day, week, month, or maybe a lifetime. At the 6, 8, 10 x table and going with $10, keeping it at 0.152% you will be risking an average of $90 or so each time you put up the odds and you better have about $1000 or more for bankroll, each session, prepared to lose it should that be your luck.

Quote: odiousgambit

The way I like to put it is, you can change the HE with free odds, but not the EV. I think it is a little misleading to say what you did, though, granting that it is not incorrect factually.

You took my remark completely out of context, odious. Here is the quote:

"So, the casino may only consider your flat bet, and the overall HA of 0.152% is completely irrelevant; what matters is the .01414 on the $10."
The subject was the casino considering the odds bet for comps purposes, in which case, their profit expectation relates ONLY to the flat part, and the combined HA is irrelevant.

Quote: odiousgambit

What can be overlooked is that the variance becomes a dominant factor. A player should not think of betting the pass line with odds and run a chance of winning or losing 14 cents for every $10 and then wonder what the heck happened on likely wins or losses on a given day, week, month, or maybe a lifetime. At the 6, 8, 10 x table and going with $10, keeping it at 0.152% you will be risking an average of $90 or so each time you put up the odds and you better have about $1000 or more for bankroll, each session, prepared to lose it should that be your luck.

Here is another quote from a post of mine on this thread:

"The higher odds multiple, the more the variance, without adding any expected loss. Just don't forget: variance works both ways!"

In the above case, the ev for 60 $10 passline bets, taking full 6, 8, 10X odds, is just -$8.48, but the standard deviation is $696. The probability of coming out one standard deviation worse than the expectation is about 16%, so the player has about a one-in-six chance of busting a $700 bankroll within a couple of hours of this play. If the player starts with $1000, it would take about 1.4 SD below expectation, with a probability of about .08, or about one chance in 12 of busting. The player needs to decide what "risk of ruin" he/she is prepared to accept and set the bankroll/odds level accordingly.

Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Quote: goatcabin

You took my remark completely out of context, odious.

OK, I guess I did. However, the original poster may have missed that too, so I think the point should have been brought up. Sorry I did it rudely.

PS, I respect your ability to do that math.