IAchance5
IAchance5
Joined: May 28, 2010
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October 15th, 2010 at 6:31:23 PM permalink
So I just got back from playing a losing session of craps, where I was mostly playing the pass with odds, and also one "come" bet with odds per shooter. On one particular "come" bet, the shooter rolled three straight 3's and one 12 all back to back, so I lost $20 quick. The dealer yelled over at me, "You better start taking some craps check with those come bets!" What are your thoughts on doing a $1 craps check when betting some "come" bets? Is it a good strategy? Thanks.
mkl654321
mkl654321
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October 15th, 2010 at 7:31:59 PM permalink
Quote: IAchance5

So I just got back from playing a losing session of craps, where I was mostly playing the pass with odds, and also one "come" bet with odds per shooter. On one particular "come" bet, the shooter rolled three straight 3's and one 12 all back to back, so I lost $20 quick. The dealer yelled over at me, "You better start taking some craps check with those come bets!" What are your thoughts on doing a $1 craps check when betting some "come" bets? Is it a good strategy? Thanks.



It's a terrible idea. The craps bet has one of the highest house percentages on the table (11%). A $1 craps bet costs you MORE money than a $5 come bet!

The craps bet WOULD NOT HAVE prevented you from losing the come bet, in any case. It would be a separate bet with a separate outcome.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
appistappis
appistappis
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October 15th, 2010 at 8:38:13 PM permalink
"thou shall not hedge"
boymimbo
boymimbo
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October 15th, 2010 at 11:03:09 PM permalink
To be accurate however, on a $5 pass line with a $1 craps check, you get the following:

=2*4/36+4*8/36+4*(6/36*3/9+8/36*4/10+10/36*5/11)-6*(6/36*6/9+8/36*6/10+10/36*6/11) = 3.636 percent HA. Of course that gets diluted when you take odds. Taking full odds at a 3 / 4 / 5 times table gets you from .374 percent to .914 percent HA on the full bet when you take the craps check.

Feel free to hedge thy bets but realize that it's a hedge and will overall dilute your action.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
superrick
superrick
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October 16th, 2010 at 12:11:49 PM permalink
IAchance5

From my view-point, you are just making stupid bets with the come bet, but thatís my view-point! Here is why I say that, to start with I know that you probably read that come bets were good bets to make. Like most players starting out or even after playing twenty years, because we read it in a book we think that has to be right!


Quote:

On one particular "come" bet, the shooter rolled three straight 3's and one 12 all back to back, so I lost $20 quick. The dealer yelled over at me, "You better start taking some craps check with those come bets!"



You gave a good example as to why you shouldnít make come bets, the craps points will kill you on new come out rolls, and the 7 will take down your come bets that you have already established. I know of course you get to keep your odds, when there was a new come out seven after the first point way made! So when there is a hot roll you stand to lose on every new come-out roll, and then you have to reestablish new come bets. Most players will have one or two come bet on the table at the same time you just lost $10 on a come out roll if the shooter made a 7 on the come-out roll if you had two come bets, plus the fact that you can also lose a new come bet to the crap numbers!

You have a bet that has to hit twice to win on and that adds to your dilemma! Why donít you just place the point you want and you would be a lot better off, that way you can get paid on one hit of the dice, you are not going to lose your bets on the come out rolls, and you can take them down or turn them off at any time!
Here is a good example, you have a $5 come bet and now the shooter makes a 10, your bet goes to the 10 and you take $10 in odds. When the point hits again, thatís if it does you get paid $5 for you come bet and $20 for you odds grand total of $25 ďgreatĒ

I place the 10 for $15 I got paid 27 if I didnít have a buy on the point for the first 10 that was rolled, then I get paid $27 on the second point that was rolled, same $15 I made $54 what is wrong with this picture? You make up your own mind; at one time I played come bets because the dealers and the books said that they were the best kind of bets to make one pass-line bet with two come bets.

I am sure glad that I spent the $19 on that first book I bought on craps, it taught me one thing and that is to think for your self, and donít believe every thing you read about the game of craps.
Now there are some books out that goes against the old way of thinking about the come bet being a good bet, you do the math and make-up your own mind. There are going to be a lot of guys that will tell you the come bet is a great bet to make.

By the way crap bets are just that crap! That is why the dealer is selling you that bet so he can keep his job, by winning money off of you! Any bet that the stickman is selling is a bad bet, just like the guys at the carnivals do they sell you a game that you canít win on, how much did it cost you to win that $5 teddy bear for your girl friend, what a great job of salesmanship they did on you. You played a game that looks like it was so easy to win on but the truth was you didnít stand a chance.

Here honey I won you this bear, it only cost me $50 to win it for you, you are the man!

Now all I got to do is sit back and brace my self for all the math guys that are gong to tell you I am wrong!

This is just my opinion, and I may be wrong, so take it for what itís worth, and try it before you take it into a casino near you!

Lotís of luck

Superrick
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
mkl654321
mkl654321
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October 16th, 2010 at 3:15:47 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

IAchance5

From my view-point, you are just making stupid bets with the come bet, but thatís my view-point! Here is why I say that, to start with I know that you probably read that come bets were good bets to make. Like most players starting out or even after playing twenty years, because we read it in a book we think that has to be right!



This sort of thinking is why the casinos make so much money. If everybody only made the best bets available, a crap table couldn't afford to pay its dealers.

The come bet is the third best bet available on the table. It is tied with the Pass Line bet, and VERY slightly behind the Don't Pass and Don't Come bets (tied for second). The best bet of all is the odds bet. The reason why these bets are better than the others available had nothing to do with whether some book says they are or are not--it's because they have the lowest house edge. A player will benefit from making those bets that have the lowest house edge.

And for what it's worth, the vast majority of the books out there that deal with the game of craps offer information that is absolutely correct. Most people don't have the ability to work out the mathematics of the game on their own--the books offer a shortcut. "Thinking for yourself" at the crap table is like not reading the directions for that new band saw you just bought.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
soulhunt79
soulhunt79
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October 16th, 2010 at 6:15:34 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

IAchance5

You gave a good example as to why you shouldnít make come bets, the craps points will kill you on new come out rolls, and the 7 will take down your come bets that you have already established. I know of course you get to keep your odds, when there was a new come out seven after the first point way made! So when there is a hot roll you stand to lose on every new come-out roll, and then you have to reestablish new come bets. Most players will have one or two come bet on the table at the same time you just lost $10 on a come out roll if the shooter made a 7 on the come-out roll if you had two come bets, plus the fact that you can also lose a new come bet to the crap numbers!



I started out with place bets and still go back to it at times when I simply want to bet less. Pass/Come + odds can get very expensive very quickly.

My reason for sticking with come bets though is I just feel the ramp up time is useful to me. You mention a situation were you actually hit a few 10s. Well, I've done that and there have been times were I never hit a 10 in 15 shooters. While I can still lose a ton on a streak like 4/5/6/8/9/10/7, I've decided I'd rather have this instead of getting point 7s and losing every place bet I just placed.

I'll take my 0.374% disadvantage in Vegas and enjoy the wild swings. :)
appistappis
appistappis
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October 16th, 2010 at 8:59:38 PM permalink
wow, here's turning a thread into the old come vs place betting arguments....you'll never convince these place betting dopes so why bother trying.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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October 16th, 2010 at 10:49:21 PM permalink
Despite the arguments, I still love the game, because everyone has a different method of betting. There is a tremendous variety of betters out there, from those who religiously stick to pass lines, to those who place numbers, to those who play the lottery in the center. There are come betters and don't betters. Some people throw the dice in the air attempting to get great control. Others just toss the dice without a care in the world. Everyone will argue that one system is better than the other.

But the math is absolutely right in the matter. Just because you are throwing dice makes everyone think that you can play a system that will beat dice and that the dice have magical memories or properties that will make some numbers appear more than others. What makes us believe this is our anthropological ability to learn to recognize patterns and to falsely believe that the past does affect the future. The fact is that the dice are random and all our betting patterns create are functions of expected value and variance that can be explained through statistics.

Playing the don't is better than playing the pass (marginally). Placing the 6 and 8 is very similar to pass line and odds when you consider the per roll HA. Buying a four or 10 when you pay commission on the win can be just as lucrative as the place 6 and 8s. That's why the game is so great. There are a variety of ways you can win, but the casino has rigged the games so that they take a cut of every single roll of the dice.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
IAchance5
IAchance5
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October 17th, 2010 at 1:50:57 PM permalink
So is it mathematically better to just do place bets, rather than play the come bets w/ odds? I thought the come bets had a slightly less HA than the place bets?

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